/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-11-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Nov 12 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  13. # [00:20] <squeakytoy> i would like to hear why the hell people still use ie6
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  38. # [00:44] <Jon47> squeakytoy - I understand that it's primarily because they are using stolen copies of windows xp and don't bother upgrading the browser, or because the IT group in their company will not allow them to upgrade
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  41. # [01:01] <squeakytoy> its because certain critical websites still use active-x :(
  42. # [01:01] <squeakytoy> :-(
  43. # [01:01] <Pomax> ie6update.com
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  74. # [01:54] <superevr> yea if they are using a stolen copy of windows xp, they can't upgrade their browser even if they wanted to
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  81. # [02:02] <Aric> jQuery Tristate plugin problem if anyone wants to take a shot, I'm stuck...
  82. # [02:02] <Aric> HELP :: Using jQuery.tristate plugin and I can't uncheck any boxes using the same html/js as the demo on my site, can anyone help? URL= http://islamlocal.com/test
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  115. # [02:54] <mike5w3c> Divya's right.
  116. # [02:54] <divya> :))
  117. # [02:55] <divya> thanks mike5w3c seems like people have dogmatic beliefs that get before their ability to read a post.
  118. # [02:55] <mike5w3c> yep, as usual
  119. # [02:56] <divya> ya sadly :/
  120. # [03:00] <mike5w3c> and they do the typical thing of trying to pick apart particular "errors" instead of addressing the central point
  121. # [03:00] <divya> yeahh or reduce the argument to some "you say lets all use p tags from now on"
  122. # [03:02] <mike5w3c> yeah, don't listen to the bleating
  123. # [03:03] <mike5w3c> instead, listen to what Garann said :)
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  128. # [03:07] <tw2113> divya are you sticking by your POV?
  129. # [03:07] <divya> duh
  130. # [03:07] <tw2113> good
  131. # [03:07] <divya> mike5w3c: haha will do :)
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  175. # [04:28] <c0d3fr34k> hi
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  177. # [04:28] <c0d3fr34k> [A[A[B[Bsd
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  187. # [04:48] <c0d3fr34k> helo
  188. # [04:48] <c0d3fr34k> anybody here?
  189. # [04:49] <Pomax> in a manner of speaking
  190. # [04:49] <andrewjbaker> ^^
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  243. # [05:51] <c0d3fr34k> there are a lot of bots loaded at this room[1;5D[1;5D[1;5D[1;5D[1;5D[1;5D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[Cand online at this room
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  279. # [08:27] <mr_lou> Morning
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  331. # [11:40] <rodfersou> hi everyone!
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  333. # [11:41] <rodfersou> any news about indexeddb ?
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  336. # [11:47] <Velmont> rodfersou: What kind are you looking for? :P
  337. # [11:49] * Joins: zatan_ (~zatan@5ad36af0.bb.sky.com)
  338. # [11:49] <rodfersou> well.. I'm just looking arround.. I'll need some offline storage scheme for my final at my post graduation course
  339. # [11:51] <Velmont> Well. Works fine. localStorage is easier though if you don't want to store loads.
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  345. # [12:05] <rodfersou> Velmont: thank you for your response
  346. # [12:06] <rodfersou> Velmont: when you say "Works fine" you mean the browsers already support indexed db ?
  347. # [12:10] <rodfersou> in this comparison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_%28HTML5%29 they say that is just partially supported for some browsers
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  350. # [12:15] <Velmont> rodfersou: indexeddb is only an easier wrapper around something very similar to WebSQL.
  351. # [12:16] <Velmont> rodfersou: So you can write your own compat shin, then it'll work in Opera and webkit.
  352. # [12:16] <Velmont> So, if(indexedDB) db = indexedDB; else { db = myOwnIndexedDBShim }
  353. # [12:17] <rodfersou> right
  354. # [12:17] <rodfersou> thank you
  355. # [12:17] <Velmont> And Mozilla only supports async one. So that's what they mean by partial.
  356. # [12:18] <Velmont> And IE... Ah, you need to download experimental binaries. It's not shipping.
  357. # [12:19] <Velmont> But all of them do support webstorage, so you can always fall back to that. I guess :-)
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  360. # [12:41] <rodfersou> Velmont: rigth
  361. # [12:42] <rodfersou> do you know if there is a way to check how much space is left into webstorage? (about the limitation of 5mb)
  362. # [12:42] * rodfersou going to check at google
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  365. # [12:52] <Velmont> rodfersou: I haven't done something requiring that myself yet. But I seem to remember there being a callback for it.
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  367. # [12:52] <helpcrypto> hi. little OT, but need to ask somewhere. Can one browser tab access another tab html content/js ?
  368. # [12:52] <rodfersou> right
  369. # [12:53] <rodfersou> if I use webstorage I'm thinking to put an progressbar indicating how much data can I still store into the device
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  371. # [12:53] <rodfersou> ** a progressbar
  372. # [12:55] <Velmont> helpcrypto: postmessage, I guess.
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  376. # [12:56] <helpcrypto> Velmont: its not an html5 issue (yet)
  377. # [12:56] <helpcrypto> its to understand deeper CSRF and how could i protect against
  378. # [12:56] <Velmont> rodfersou: So you're doing some data heavy stuff? pictures etc?
  379. # [12:57] <helpcrypto> cause, in many sites says "use a token/hidden value", but if tabA can read tabB, its useless
  380. # [12:57] <Velmont> helpcrypto: Ah. Hmm. You can't really read cross-origin without CORS allowance.
  381. # [12:58] <Velmont> helpcrypto: tabB has to allow tabA do such things.
  382. # [12:58] <Velmont> not tab, but the actual sites inside it.
  383. # [12:58] <helpcrypto> ...im talking on client side...isnt what you are talking "cross-dmain request"?
  384. # [12:58] <Velmont> Or you need to run from extensions.
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  387. # [12:59] <rodfersou> Velmont: no, it is not heavy.. but nobody knows what users can do... I think it is better to show then "you have more these data size left"... then I can advise then.. sincronize it to the server
  388. # [12:59] <Velmont> helpcrypto: I'm not sure I quite understand. -- Are you not talking about cross-domain requests?
  389. # [13:00] <Velmont> helpcrypto: If they want to go to your site and steal your CSRF-tokens, they have to go cross-domain.
  390. # [13:00] <Velmont> helpcrypto: Or do you mean protect yourself from your own site?
  391. # [13:01] <Velmont> rodfersou: Heh, OK :P 5MB is *a lot* though. But see what you find, I seem to remember there being some way to tell at least.
  392. # [13:01] <helpcrypto> Velmont, this is what i mean: mysite.com has a form with values(including hidden token) opened in browser TAB A
  393. # [13:01] <helpcrypto> Tab B could, anyhow, access tabA html/js code?
  394. # [13:02] <helpcrypto> if yes->token protection is useless
  395. # [13:02] <Velmont> No. Not without running as an extension or the same.
  396. # [13:02] <rodfersou> Velmont: fine! I'll search for it
  397. # [13:02] <rodfersou> thanks
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  399. # [13:03] <helpcrypto> Velmont: when you create a popup using window.open, you can get a name to handle that window, right?. Can that handle be used to see the DOM?
  400. # [13:06] <Velmont> rodfersou: From the spec: User agents may prompt the user when quotas are reached, allowing the user to grant a site more space. This enables sites to store many user-created documents on the user's computer, for instance.
  401. # [13:06] <Velmont> rodfersou: User agents should allow users to see how much space each domain is using. ---- A mostly arbitrary limit of five megabytes per origin is recommended. Implementation feedback is welcome and will be used to update this suggestion in the future.
  402. # [13:06] <rodfersou> well.. the spec don't many things.. they left it to the user agents
  403. # [13:06] <rodfersou> **don't say many
  404. # [13:06] <rodfersou> I think..
  405. # [13:07] <Velmont> rodfersou: You have a QuotaExceededError, and you have storage.length. You can use that as an indication. You can even loop over everything yourself and count how much space you're using.
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  408. # [13:08] <rodfersou> Velmont: thank you :)
  409. # [13:08] <Velmont> totbytes=0; for (var i=0; i<storage.length; i++) { totbytes += storage.getItem(storage.getKey(i)).length }
  410. # [13:08] <Velmont> rodfersou: Something like that I guess :P
  411. # [13:08] * rodfersou taking notes
  412. # [13:09] <rodfersou> :)
  413. # [13:10] <Velmont> I'm in the next office to the one who wrote webstorage for Opera, so I'll ask him on monday if he put in some hidden features to make it easier :P
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  415. # [13:12] <rodfersou> hahaha
  416. # [13:12] <rodfersou> that would be nice
  417. # [13:12] <rodfersou> :)
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  462. # [15:56] <Jayflux> do html5 new form attributes including pattern work in older browsers?
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  467. # [16:00] <Ms2ger> Depends on how old, and they're not too hard to fake
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  538. # [18:55] <mathi> hi
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  541. # [18:55] <mathi> I have a question concerning Application Cache
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  545. # [19:01] <mathi> When I link a cache manifest file to a web page (with manifest attribute), this web page becomes a "master entry" and is added to the cache. The problem is that if this page is dynamic, the next calls to the page will load from the cache (and actually it will become a static page). If I update the cache manifest, then the page will still not update, it will still show the page from the cache, fetch the new manifest file, and the page
  546. # [19:01] <mathi> will update only at the next request.
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  548. # [19:02] <mathi> I was thus thinking that it is pretty useless as most pages nowadays are dynamic, but maybe I missed something here
  549. # [19:04] <aQustic> you could try to add the index page to the NETWORK section to tell the browser to always load it
  550. # [19:04] <mathi> aQustic, I tried, it didn't work for master entries
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  554. # [19:12] <Pomax> hm, I recall someone asking this before, but is there a way to make elements with a border radius not signal :hover when the mouse is over the supposedly 'empty' region outside the rounded borders?
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  567. # [19:52] <dilvie> is it possible to turn off the little up/down arrows on the new number and date input types in Chrome?
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  586. # [20:33] <drublic> dilvie: http://jsfiddle.net/drublic/p5K4T/
  587. # [20:40] <dilvie> -webkit-appearance: searchfield; is a nuisance. type="search" elements ignore CSS unless you disable it.
  588. # [20:41] <dilvie> That fact is not immediately obvious to developers experimenting with HTML5 form elements.
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  594. # [21:00] <Pomax> interesting. safari doesn't like border radius in percentages.
  595. # [21:01] <Pomax> and opera seems to do really weird things with transform:rotate
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  600. # [21:07] <paul_irish> Pomax: webkit and gecko interpret border rad %s completely differently afaik
  601. # [21:07] <paul_irish> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39519/borderradiuspercentage.html
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  603. # [21:07] <Pomax> the odd thing is that chrome loves them
  604. # [21:08] <Pomax> so something's different between the webkits used...
  605. # [21:08] <Pomax> safari just goes "percentages? I have no idea what those are" and renders a box =)
  606. # [21:08] <Pomax> oh ffs. Opera still gets vertical align wrong?
  607. # [21:08] <Pomax> it's 2011 T_T
  608. # [21:08] <paul_irish> hmm i think those are matching now
  609. # [21:09] <Pomax> could be my version of safari... I'm on 5.0.5 apparently
  610. # [21:09] <paul_irish> ah
  611. # [21:09] <paul_irish> 5.1 should be same
  612. # [21:09] <Pomax> let's update that.
  613. # [21:10] <Pomax> Opera is doing some really weird things.
  614. # [21:11] <Pomax> check out the difference for http://what.inthefuck.com/test between Opera and "anything else"
  615. # [21:11] <Pomax> it's completely spazzing out on the rotations, and vertical align for the header is all wrong
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  617. # [21:11] <Pomax> (links don't go anywhere)
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  627. # [21:38] <drublic> Pomax: in opera next the rotaion seems to work.
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  631. # [21:49] <Pomax> drublic, nice. what about the valign?
  632. # [21:49] <drublic> Pomax: still broke
  633. # [21:49] <Pomax> =(
  634. # [21:49] <drublic> Pomax: also: the opacity fade does not seam to work :/
  635. # [21:50] <Pomax> damn...
  636. # [21:51] * Pomax shakes fist at Opera
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  648. # [22:31] <jetienne> anybody knows a demo for the fullscreen and/or mouse lock api ?
  649. # [22:31] <Pomax> there's bound to be one on David's blog for it, http://vocamus.net/dave/?p=1354
  650. # [22:32] <matt729> Pomax, just curious, why dedicate so much energy to Opera? Are you targeting people that tend to use it?
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  652. # [22:33] <Pomax> I don't like loose ends, where a single browser is screwing up so bad that people using it end up concluding the website must be crap
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  654. # [22:33] <Pomax> my pass mark is "the site behaves in Chrome, Firefox, Opera, IE9 and Safari"
  655. # [22:34] <matt729> I agree with that, except minus Opera. If Opera wants to increase their 2% marketshare, making a standards compliant browser would be a good place to start.
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  657. # [22:34] <Pomax> IE9 for instance is currently complaining that the webfont I'm using does not have permission:installable.
  658. # [22:34] <jetienne> oh i was a mozfest too :)
  659. # [22:34] <Pomax> even if I set the fsType value to "installable". great fun
  660. # [22:35] <Pomax> matt729, revisit that number, but now look at "mobile"
  661. # [22:36] <matt729> mobile's different. I'm willing to fight painful browsers if they have some marketshare :)
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  663. # [22:37] <Pomax> and with mobile no longer requiring "a different webpage", since they now all zoom, a good design + "it has to work in Opera" pretty much also means "works on mobile"
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  665. # [22:40] <dilvie> target Opera but no IE8? That seems like a strange choice...
  666. # [22:41] <matt729> fair enough. Do Opera Mobile and Desktop share the same relevant code? So that working on Opera desktop is a good indication of how it will work in mobile?
  667. # [22:42] <Pomax> for the most part, in my experience
  668. # [22:42] <dilvie> I'm adding support for some new element types in h5Validate. =)
  669. # [22:42] <Pomax> dilvie: not really
  670. # [22:43] <dilvie> paul_irish: As per your recommendation yesterday, falling back to native browser implementations for validation. =)
  671. # [22:43] <Pomax> MS doesn't want you to use IE8.
  672. # [22:43] <Pomax> Opera does what you to use Opera
  673. # [22:43] <Pomax> If you refuse to, or can't, use IE9, your problem is not my problem.
  674. # [22:43] <dilvie> I would have felt dirty overriding them all.
  675. # [22:44] <dilvie> Pomax: I wish I could live in that beautiful fantasy world where IE8 support doesn't matter. =)
  676. # [22:44] <matt729> i'm using too much new stuff to even consider supporting IE8, just one of the sacrifices that has to be made
  677. # [22:44] <dilvie> Pomax: It sounds very nice. Are all the waterfalls made of chocolate? =)
  678. # [22:44] <Pomax> it's not a fantasy world
  679. # [22:44] <Pomax> you just have to tell your clients that you develop for real people, not intranet applications
  680. # [22:44] <Pomax> I don't do "our company only" stuff
  681. # [22:45] <dilvie> Pomax: Or live with the fact that a huge chunk of the market just isn't going to bother with your "broken" app. ;)
  682. # [22:45] <Pomax> it's not broken if it works in firefox, chrome, and IE9 ;)
  683. # [22:45] <Pomax> it just means "oh you're still on XP? why are you using IE at all?"
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  685. # [22:46] <dilvie> If I can bring in an extra million dollars per month by supporting IE8, it's probably worth the extra dev time to support it. =)
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  687. # [22:47] <matt729> what about the extra $20 a month that Opera would bring in? :)
  688. # [22:47] <dilvie> Leaving that size audience out in the cold just isn't a defensible position for my projects. =)
  689. # [22:48] <dilvie> matt729: Oh, I know, that's really important that we get that $20/month!
  690. # [22:48] <Pomax> when I make the million dollars, watch me change my opinion
  691. # [22:48] <matt729> yeah we have to still support IE7 because of that sizable audience. damn you, Microsoft.
  692. # [22:48] <Pomax> in the mean time, if microsoft says "We don't want people to use IE8". I'm not developing for it.
  693. # [22:49] * GoOz`aw is now known as GoOz
  694. # [22:51] <matt729> is there any way to get an accurate clientWidth in Firefox when using -moz-transform: scale(x)? Firefox still reports the element is its non transformed size
  695. # [22:51] <Pomax> even with getComputedStyle?
  696. # [22:51] <mathi> What is the NETWORK: section for in an application cache? Why wouldn't someone want to fetch the resources online when they are not specified in CACHE: section? => If the resource is not specified in CACHE: nor in NETWORK: the resource won't be fetched. Why would anyone want that ?
  697. # [22:53] <matt729> yeah. getComputedStyle is also not taking scale into account
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  706. # [23:03] <Velmont> matt729: What do you find lacking in Opera's standards support?
  707. # [23:04] <matt729> Velmont, "standards support" wasn't the right term. I meant if something works fine in FF, WebKit and IE but doesn't in Opera, then I blame Opera. They are the underdog and I think they should be the ones that conform, not devs. I don't even have Opera installed, I don't care whatsoever how my sites look in Opera.
  708. # [23:05] <Velmont> That makes me very sad. -- Opera is a heavy pusher of standards and is authoring quite a few of them.
  709. # [23:06] <Pomax> for one, it still can't get vertical align right.
  710. # [23:06] <Velmont> It started WHATWG with Apple and Google to push web standards forwards.
  711. # [23:06] <Pomax> the thing that annoys me about Opera, though, is that there's no issue tracker
  712. # [23:06] <Pomax> you find a bug, you report it, it disappears into a black hole
  713. # [23:07] <Pomax> you can leave an email address to be contacted at - they never do
  714. # [23:08] <Velmont> Yes, I'm not fond of that.
  715. # [23:08] <Velmont> FTR I work in Opera.
  716. # [23:09] <matt729> you work for Opera or you prefer Opera?
  717. # [23:10] <jetienne> Velmont: about support which browser got mouse lock right now ? i do game and need a browser to dev on
  718. # [23:12] <Velmont> matt729: Ah, sorry, I work /for/ Opera.
  719. # [23:13] <jetienne> well opera people are quite respected on the field, for what i have seen.
  720. # [23:15] <Velmont> jetienne: Mouse lock is talked about very much right now, along with many other "game" features. I don't know how we'll take it, and I haven't followed webkit and mozilla on it, - but they are also very interested in it.
  721. # [23:16] <jetienne> i believed one of the edgy version had an implementation
  722. # [23:16] <Velmont> Anyway, -- there is still a fair bit of spec-discussion going on. I don't know the status there.
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  724. # [23:17] <jetienne> ok thanks
  725. # [23:17] <Velmont> jetienne: Oh, it does. That's nice.
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  727. # [23:19] <Pomax> Velmont, the only two complaints I have about Opera at are valign, and the "no, we won't let you intercept contextmenu" nonsense =)
  728. # [23:19] <Pomax> in older versions at least you were allowed to overrule that decision with a checkbox in the browser, but that vanished too...
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  730. # [23:21] <Velmont> Pomax: I'll look at vertical-align, -- I didn't know we were missing that.
  731. # [23:21] <Velmont> And the other one is that you want to disable right click menu and provide your own?
  732. # [23:21] <Pomax> I'm filing a bug for it atm, I'll give you the number when I'm done
  733. # [23:21] <Pomax> yeah.
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  735. # [23:23] <Velmont> Pomax: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS1/20020115/sec544.htm << seems to work here. Or are you talking about something else?
  736. # [23:24] <Pomax> I'm talking about http://pomax.nihongoresources.com/downloads/temp/Opera-valign-bugs/
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  740. # [23:30] <Pomax> I don't know the Opera-internal bug identifier, but the notification address is for DSK-350314@bugs.opera.com
  741. # [23:31] <Velmont> Pomax: OK, watching it. Will search for duplicates and notify someone on it :-)
  742. # [23:32] <Pomax> cheers
  743. # [23:33] <Pomax> oh wait, no I found another bug.
  744. # [23:33] <Pomax> (yay!)
  745. # [23:33] <Pomax> incorrect font fallback
  746. # [23:33] <Velmont> Pomax: I know that one :-)
  747. # [23:33] <Pomax> that saves filing time
  748. # [23:34] <Pomax> it's particularly annoying for multilingual pages =)
  749. # [23:36] <Pomax> the interesting part is where I don't even know which font it decided to select. It looks like an obscure Japanese font from the free Epson collection
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  751. # [23:40] <Velmont> Pomax: OK, found the "real" bug for valign bottom, -- will duplicate it and add an extra link to your TC.
  752. # [23:40] <Pomax> inline elements messing up valigns?
  753. # [23:40] <Velmont> Pomax: Oh, I only meant another entry. :-) The oldest one.
  754. # [23:41] <Pomax> ahh
  755. # [23:41] <Pomax> when did I file that? =)
  756. # [23:41] <Pomax> because that was around the time <ruby> was added to XHTML I believe
  757. # [23:41] <Velmont> Pomax: Hehe, someone beat you to it. :]
  758. # [23:42] <Pomax> heh
  759. # [23:42] <Pomax> longstanding bug, eh
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  765. # [23:47] <Velmont> Pomax: http://pomax.nihongoresources.com/downloads/temp/opera%20css%20bug/opera%20css%20bug.html << this is gone.
  766. # [23:48] <grantg> heh
  767. # [23:48] <Pomax> it IS my temp dir =)
  768. # [23:48] <Pomax> I cleared it out... a year ago?
  769. # [23:48] <grantg> opera css bugs... hmm, right off the bat I can say Opera has a fixed positioning bug
  770. # [23:48] <grantg> and box-shadow gfx trashing bugs
  771. # [23:49] <grantg> xD
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  773. # [23:49] <Velmont> grantg: that last one is esp. visible on cnet.
  774. # [23:49] <grantg> lol
  775. # [23:49] <Pomax> today's a bugriddled day. nice error in Safari for a table-row that doesn't manifest in Chrome
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  777. # [23:50] <Pomax> setting position:absolute followed by position:relative in the inspector fixed it, but giving it position:relative from the get go doesn't =P
  778. # [23:50] <grantg> fixed positioning bug in opera: resizing the window in opera does NOT always update the display when it should
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  780. # [23:50] <grantg> Seems the opera folk took logic shortcuts
  781. # [23:51] <grantg> also: Opera has some sort of z-index / opacity combo issue
  782. # [23:51] <grantg> resulting in temporary incorrect stacking
  783. # [23:53] <grantg> another thing: UI render BEHIND the element they're contained in when opacity is partial
  784. # [23:53] <grantg> *UI widgets
  785. # [23:53] <grantg> very bad bug
  786. # [23:54] <grantg> rather than scrollbars and OS buttons rendering WITHIN the element they're actually in, they render BEHIND it in Opera. D: D: D:
  787. # [23:54] <grantg> lolOpera
  788. # [23:55] <grantg> Saw these with 11.X, would have to re-test for the 11.6 and 12 opera
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  790. # [23:55] <grantg> I remember safari had that ui widget render behind bug long ago too
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  793. # [23:56] <Pomax> there was a lovely webkit opacity bug at some point that made content transparent, but made the UI components for those elements pure black.
  794. # [23:56] <grantg> Opera is full of rendering shortcuts. :P
  795. # [23:56] <Pomax> fade out a text block gave a nice superblack scrollbar until you hit opacity:0
  796. # [23:57] <Velmont> < grantg> fixed positioning bug in opera: resizing the window in opera does NOT always update the display when it should <----- should be fixed
  797. # [23:57] <grantg> Velmont: It's not
  798. # [23:57] <grantg> I still see that in fullscreen mode in my GameBoy Color emulator.
  799. # [23:57] <grantg> When resizing opera
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  801. # [23:58] <grantg> The background leaks through and <canvas> isn't resized by fixed positioning at certain resizes when it should
  802. # [23:58] <Pomax> you have a game boy color emulator that runs Opera? or you have a gameboy color emulator that runs in a browser? =P
  803. # [23:58] <grantg> Pomax: Runs in Opera and runs in a browser
  804. # [23:59] <grantg> http://www.grantgalitz.org/gameboy/
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  807. # [23:59] <Pomax> nice
  808. # [23:59] <Pomax> I'm trying to remember who tried their hand at the JS-SNES emulator
  809. # [23:59] <grantg> You mean JS NES
  810. # [23:59] <grantg> and that was bfirsh
  811. # Session Close: Sun Nov 13 00:00:00 2011

The end :)