/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-11-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 15 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
  3. # [00:00] <JonathanNeal> What do you think if i use data-* attributes in places where I used to use class=. These data- attribute names have more semantic meaning to the document than just presentation.
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  7. # [00:01] <Jayflux> JonathanNeal depends what exactly you're using the data- attributes for
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  9. # [00:02] <JonathanNeal> <table data-meta> for tabular data that serves as the meta or abstract of the document.
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  13. # [00:03] <franksalim> JonathanNeal: why not use a class? classes don't have to be purely presentational
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  15. # [00:04] <JonathanNeal> franksalim: where does it say that classes are not purely presentational?
  16. # [00:04] <JonathanNeal> i'm asking because i don't actually know the difference between using data-* and class= except that data should have some semantic meaning to the node.
  17. # [00:05] <franksalim> JonathanNeal: where does anything say that they are presentational at all?
  18. # [00:06] <JonathanNeal> "The class selector is used to specify a style for a group of elements."
  19. # [00:06] <franksalim> is that from CSS?
  20. # [00:06] <franksalim> html doesn't have selectors
  21. # [00:07] <franksalim> HTML: The Markup Language lists the class attribute as "A name of a classification, or list of names of classifications, to which the element belongs." I think that's a nice definition. It then happens to be convenient to style elements based on class
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  31. # [00:21] <franksalim> that's my two cents
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  33. # [00:21] <franksalim> i think i read somewhere that semantic markup was out of fashion, anyway
  34. # [00:22] <franksalim> ;-)
  35. # [00:25] <Jon47> boy that was fast
  36. # [00:25] <Jon47> i don't think that anybody's saying semantic markup is bad, they
  37. # [00:25] <Jon47> are just pointing out that it needs to actually serve the people it was made for
  38. # [00:26] <Jon47> not just be a thing developers pontificate on
  39. # [00:26] <franksalim> well, in this case, switching between classes and data- attributes probably isn't a big deal
  40. # [00:27] <Jon47> oh ya
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  72. # [01:30] <dreamer> *ooh*
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  74. # [01:33] <dreamer> ok, first off, I haven't dabbled in web-development in ages, so basically starting from scratch. I'm using this trick to make a custom directory listing http://www.redips.net/apache/styling-directory-listings/ << but I'd like to put some html5 trickery at the top of the page (ie something with <audio> and some javascript) and I have no ideo where to start. I've seen some things on xhtml, but I'm not sure if this is what I'm dealing with and if I can even use <
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  107. # [02:45] <JonathanNeal> Why does <address> only scope to <article> but not other sectioning content? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-address-element
  108. # [02:49] <Jon47> thats a good question
  109. # [02:49] <Jon47> and a careful reading of the spec ;)
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  168. # [04:42] <ricardoandres> hi guys
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  171. # [04:50] <ricardoandres> anyone at home ?
  172. # [04:50] <grantg> yeah
  173. # [04:50] <grantg> hey
  174. # [04:51] <ricardoandres> hey guys, do you use HTML5 Boulerplate ?
  175. # [04:51] <ricardoandres> Boilerplate*
  176. # [04:51] <grantg> ask paul_irish
  177. # [04:51] <grantg> He's one of its heads
  178. # [04:52] <ricardoandres> yeah i know, i met him lsat week
  179. # [04:52] <ricardoandres> last*
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  181. # [04:52] <ricardoandres> but I'd like to know if you use it in ur projects
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  183. # [04:52] <grantg> not really
  184. # [04:53] <ricardoandres> no ? why ?
  185. # [04:53] <grantg> No need
  186. # [04:53] <ricardoandres> oh okay
  187. # [04:53] <ricardoandres> thanks for ur answer
  188. # [04:53] <grantg> heh
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  190. # [04:53] <grantg> Other things it is useful for
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  229. # [06:41] <JonathanNeal> Pomax: you around?
  230. # [06:46] <Pomax> sort of
  231. # [06:46] <Pomax> what can I do for you, JonathanNeal?
  232. # [06:47] <JonathanNeal> Well, I was looking at your recent app.
  233. # [06:47] <JonathanNeal> what happens when i pass in css with an import?
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  235. # [06:48] <Pomax> excellent question! no idea.
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  238. # [06:48] <Pomax> I am pretty sure the macros only get replaced in the base file, not the import.
  239. # [06:49] <JonathanNeal> I've been working on a css parser completely based on leaverou's.
  240. # [06:49] <Pomax> since it downloads and then caches the text inside the .css file, and applies the macros to that. if there's an @import, that's just a string.
  241. # [06:49] <JonathanNeal> it will support import, fix behavior urls, and you could use that for your macro app.
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  243. # [06:49] <JonathanNeal> Pomax: yea and that might prove to be a problem if the css file is nested in the tree.
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  246. # [06:50] <Pomax> true. but that's why github lets you add issues. file one for @import and I'll try to make that work
  247. # [06:51] <JonathanNeal> Great script, how do you deal with comments in @macros ?
  248. # [06:51] <JonathanNeal> @macros { /* {} *? } ?
  249. # [06:51] <JonathanNeal> @macros { /* {} */ } ?
  250. # [06:51] <Pomax> heh, you spotted the "I forgot to" part
  251. # [06:51] <Pomax> I just added comment stripping for the CSS body, forgot to add it for the macros block
  252. # [06:51] <JonathanNeal> Well, please don't take any of this as a bad thing.
  253. # [06:51] <Pomax> relatively quick change though
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  256. # [06:52] <Pomax> let's see...
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  261. # [06:53] <Pomax> newdata = stripComments(newdata); ought to do it.
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  264. # [06:53] <Pomax> which then allows /* comments */ inside the @macro block, like anywhere else in CSS
  265. # [06:53] <JonathanNeal> /\/\*[\W\w]*?\*\//g ... basically, yea?
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  268. # [06:57] <Pomax> basically, but a lot more complicated thanks to quotes
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  270. # [06:57] <Pomax> because content: "this is /* not a comment */"; is not a comment =)
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  272. # [06:57] <Pomax> there. updated on https://github.com/Pomax/CSSmacros
  273. # [06:58] <Pomax> the comment stripping is done here
  274. # [06:58] <Pomax> https://github.com/Pomax/CSSmacros/blob/master/cssmacros.js#L74
  275. # [06:59] <Pomax> so basically char-walk the full string, note whether we're in quote context or not, if we are, comments cannot occur. when not in quote context, see if we're in comment context. if we are, throw away all data until we leave comment context again
  276. # [06:59] <Pomax> (this is a simplified system, because CSS doesn't allow line comments. thankfully in this case =)
  277. # [06:59] <Pomax> one thing that might mess up is that this is not unicode safe.
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  280. # [07:00] <JonathanNeal> Pomax: great!
  281. # [07:00] <JonathanNeal> so complicated though, haha.
  282. # [07:00] <Pomax> theoretically anyway. There "should" be a check to see if the char is part of a multibyte codepoint, and if it is, it can't be a quote or comment delimiter.
  283. # [07:01] <JonathanNeal> the chances of any of this are so incredibly rare.
  284. # [07:01] <JonathanNeal> for /* */ to be matched.
  285. # [07:01] <Pomax> the fact that the lower codepoint will never be a ', " or / means we're pretty safe
  286. # [07:01] <Pomax> but it's always a pitfall you need to think about when char-walking
  287. # [07:02] <Pomax> it's one of those "I hate you so much" about JavaScript and Java.
  288. # [07:02] <Pomax> char != a character
  289. # [07:02] <Pomax> great fun when dealing with Japanese text >_>
  290. # [07:03] <JonathanNeal> oi
  291. # [07:05] <Pomax> anytime, off again. if you think of more things, do let me know. can't improve something without feedback =)
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  293. # [07:06] <Moo_O> what's the preferred method to calculate "reverse colors"
  294. # [07:06] <Moo_O> to be specific
  295. # [07:06] <Moo_O> I want to calculate drop shadow color automatically by chosen font color
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  297. # [07:10] * Moo_O figures out a cunning method
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  300. # [07:15] <JonathanNeal> Pomax: using the css parser i've been working on, i simulated your macro parser https://gist.github.com/1366249
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  352. # [08:54] <Moo_O> http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2011/11/15/modern-web-applications-are-here/
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  406. # [10:12] <_Sn0w_> Helllo??
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  408. # [10:13] <dreamer> that's a strange question
  409. # [10:13] <_Sn0w_> i have a question about embeding
  410. # [10:13] <dreamer> I don't believe you
  411. # [10:13] <_Sn0w_> i want to make a php app that loads ONLY the chat room
  412. # [10:14] <_Sn0w_> http://tinychat.com/channel
  413. # [10:14] <_Sn0w_> how can this be done
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  417. # [10:20] <_Sn0w_> no one knows..?
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  421. # [10:24] <dreamer> _Sn0w_: this channel isn't very responsive I guess
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  425. # [10:25] * dreamer still no clue how to combine a apache directory listing trick with some html5
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  439. # [10:55] <RLa> which tool to use for html minification?
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  441. # [10:55] <RLa> i.e remove non-significant whitespace
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  571. # [15:46] <jetienne_> i would like to do a boiler plate, which principle need to be applied ? is there slides about html5 boiler plate or better a video
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  574. # [15:50] <Jayflux> http://html5boilerplate.com/docs/Get-Started!/
  575. # [15:50] <Jayflux> jetienne ^
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  577. # [15:52] <jetienne_> Jayflux: hmm you suggest i should learn it and then find out its design principles ? maybe i should but i was hoping a talk explaining it :)
  578. # [15:53] <jetienne_> maybe it is just me being lazy
  579. # [15:53] <Jayflux> jetienne_ http://weblogs.asp.net/dwahlin/archive/2011/06/05/getting-started-using-html5-boilerplate.aspx
  580. # [15:53] <jetienne_> Jayflux: you understood that i want to do my own boilerplate, not using html5 boilerplate, correct ?
  581. # [15:54] <Jayflux> well jetienne_ those links explain whats in html5 boilerplate and how it works
  582. # [15:54] <Jayflux> im not sure what else you want
  583. # [15:55] <Jayflux> here's a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyM37XKkmKQ
  584. # [15:55] <jetienne_> well i wanted a crash course on "how to build a boilerplate for project X" :) maybe i asked too much
  585. # [15:55] <jetienne_> Jayflux: ok thanks i will study html5 boilerplate and see how it goes
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  614. # [16:21] <jarek> Hi
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  616. # [16:21] <jarek> is there a way to read all files from directory using XHR?
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  671. # [17:11] <JonathanNeal> good morning :)
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  673. # [17:15] <rvmeier> JonathanNeal, good morning :)
  674. # [17:15] <JonathanNeal> indeed!
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  720. # [18:00] <beckybunny> }+
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  742. # [18:11] <yamahaalex37> can i mask my domain with cpanel
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  751. # [18:26] <Moo_O> yamahaalex37: this is not cpanel support channel. You have better luck with appropriate support forum.
  752. # [18:26] <yamahaalex37> lol Moo_O
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  766. # [18:37] <plh_> W3C Conference live at http://www.w3.org/conf/live.html
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  768. # [18:37] <plh_> program is at http://www.w3.org/conf/#schedule
  769. # [18:39] <Moo_O> plh_: any luck get slides and recordings afterwards?
  770. # [18:39] <plh_> yep, we'll have that
  771. # [18:39] <Moo_O> nice
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  774. # [18:40] <plh_> it's also at irc://irc.w3.org:6665/w3conf
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  789. # [19:02] <Pomax> JonathanNeal, was thinking about imports - as the import can't change during the page lifetime (even though the styling can), I could just make the macros package download the imports as it finds them and insert-replace, then cache that full text and do macro replacements
  790. # [19:02] <JonathanNeal> yea, did you see how i did it?
  791. # [19:02] <JonathanNeal> something like that should be super simple
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  794. # [19:04] <Pomax> I saw your emulation - neat, although the regexp comment stripping won't work ;)
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  796. # [19:06] <JonathanNeal> Pomax: i'll let you handle those niche cases.
  797. # [19:06] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/processStyle/
  798. # [19:07] <Pomax> heh
  799. # [19:07] <Pomax> not a fan of also macro-ing the properties themselves.
  800. # [19:08] <Pomax> that's just intentionally hiding functionality
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  806. # [19:11] * chriseppstein grumbles
  807. # [19:11] <JonathanNeal> Pomax: true that.
  808. # [19:11] <JonathanNeal> i was just experimenting.
  809. # [19:12] <JonathanNeal> what's wrong chriseppstein.
  810. # [19:12] <JonathanNeal> css vendor prefix arguments got you down?
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  815. # [19:14] <chriseppstein> JonathanNeal: No I like prefixes. they make me famous
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  817. # [19:15] <JonathanNeal> what's the grumble for?
  818. # [19:15] <chriseppstein> I'm sad devs don't understand the value of them
  819. # [19:15] <chriseppstein> they are short sighted.
  820. # [19:16] <JonathanNeal> well i love them
  821. # [19:16] <JonathanNeal> the argument won't go anywhere, it will drizzle off into the js namespace.
  822. # [19:16] <chriseppstein> I don't see them
  823. # [19:16] <chriseppstein> they are hidden by abstraction
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  825. # [19:19] <JonathanNeal> maybe folks are mad that webkit got so far ahead.
  826. # [19:20] <JonathanNeal> i'll also agree that css vendor prefixed transforms could be used to break usability on competing browsers.
  827. # [19:20] <JonathanNeal> and i know it's sad because the other browser may implement the same functionality, and the author won't bother to update their code
  828. # [19:22] <JonathanNeal> in that case, just play them this http://music.thewikies.com/jonneal/yayquery/the-would-you-please-update-your-code-song
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  831. # [19:23] <Pomax> just stab them with the "you should have added vendor-prefixed rules in the first place, even if they didn't exist yet when you added them" knife
  832. # [19:24] <JonathanNeal> http://css3please.com/ adds the vendorless version even if it isn't implemented yet
  833. # [19:24] <JonathanNeal> http://lea.verou.me/prefixfree/ lets you write prefixless code and does the work for you
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  838. # [19:28] <chriseppstein> JonathanNeal: no shout out for real dev tools like less or sass? I am dissapoint
  839. # [19:29] <chriseppstein> a webpage is not a dev tool
  840. # [19:29] <JonathanNeal> I'm not, I'm still in the PHP crowd.
  841. # [19:29] <JonathanNeal> I haven't seen a great implementation yet.
  842. # [19:29] <chriseppstein> use sass it doesn't have to be written in php
  843. # [19:29] <Pomax> it's also not css compatible =(
  844. # [19:29] <chriseppstein> wut
  845. # [19:30] <JonathanNeal> what?
  846. # [19:30] <chriseppstein> WHAT
  847. # [19:30] <Pomax> the source.
  848. # [19:30] <chriseppstein> um
  849. # [19:30] <chriseppstein> that's the point
  850. # [19:30] <JonathanNeal> Pomax: i think sass and less should (and often do) use a different suffix.
  851. # [19:30] <JonathanNeal> they are then interpretted by the engine which outputs the .css file
  852. # [19:31] <JonathanNeal> and the browser uses that
  853. # [19:31] <Pomax> I know. that's what I don't like about it. it goes "we can do better" instead of "oh yeah? well here's a dropin that doesn't change anything about the naming or the syntax and now things work EVEN BETTER. now go do your job, browser devs"
  854. # [19:31] <Pomax> it's essentially a different file format with a different engine, that converts to css
  855. # [19:31] <JonathanNeal> precisely, and it's a good one
  856. # [19:32] <Pomax> that's certainly true.
  857. # [19:32] <chriseppstein> software tools: in use since computers were invented
  858. # [19:32] <Pomax> hacking: in use just as long =)
  859. # [19:32] <Pomax> subvert it from the inside, make them cringe.
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  861. # [19:33] <miketaylr> chriseppstein: i don't think it's the devs who don't see value in them anymore, it's some of the browser vendors
  862. # [19:33] <JonathanNeal> the disadvantage of less/sass is that browsers don't natively handle it (which after all this time surprises me) and there is no great php engine for it (last i checked)
  863. # [19:34] <Pomax> I don't know, I looked at less, and it made my eyes bleed.
  864. # [19:34] <Pomax> it's a great idea, but the syntax was horrible.
  865. # [19:34] <chriseppstein> Pomax: agreed. sass is better
  866. # [19:34] <chriseppstein> (scss)
  867. # [19:34] <JonathanNeal> Sometimes the syntax was horrible, but most of the time it just looked closer to js objects.
  868. # [19:34] <miketaylr> variables will likely end up in browsers soon, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-variables/
  869. # [19:34] <chriseppstein> of course, I'm biased
  870. # [19:35] <chriseppstein> miketaylr: that's because of preprocessors :)
  871. # [19:35] <miketaylr> chriseppstein: maybe
  872. # [19:35] <miketaylr> proposals for variables have been around forever
  873. # [19:35] <miketaylr> but preprocessors show there's demand
  874. # [19:35] <chriseppstein> miketaylr: yep
  875. # [19:35] <JonathanNeal> Pomax wrote a processor
  876. # [19:36] <Pomax> sass is nicer, but it still has syntax that makes me go "why?", like the var syntax, or the inheritance syntax
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  878. # [19:36] <chriseppstein> Pomax: I could explain to you -- I invented the syntax :)
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  880. # [19:36] <chriseppstein> but I have a meeting now
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  883. # [19:37] <Pomax> that's okay, I know the arguments for them, I just firmly disagree with them =)
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  886. # [19:38] <JonathanNeal> is there a php compiler for sass?
  887. # [19:38] <JonathanNeal> a reliable one?
  888. # [19:38] <chriseppstein> JonathanNeal: no
  889. # [19:38] <chriseppstein> just use the ruby one
  890. # [19:38] <JonathanNeal> i don't think my server lets me use ruby
  891. # [19:38] <chriseppstein> don't put it on your server
  892. # [19:38] <JonathanNeal> nor my local xampp installation
  893. # [19:38] <chriseppstein> just upload the compiled css
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  897. # [19:40] <Pomax> alternatively, run it through http://php.rubyforge.org/ and see how far you get
  898. # [19:40] <Pomax> just for kicks
  899. # [19:40] <Pomax> (ruby to php transcompiler)
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  901. # [19:40] <JonathanNeal> i am really surprised there is not a php sass compiler.
  902. # [19:40] <Pomax> someone has to write it.
  903. # [19:41] <Pomax> and php and ruby are just slightly too far apart
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  905. # [19:41] <Pomax> people who like one tend not to like the other.
  906. # [19:41] <Moo_O> JonathanNeal: just invoke the compiler from command line
  907. # [19:41] <Moo_O> from PHP
  908. # [19:41] <Moo_O> calling ther pocesses is not that bad
  909. # [19:41] <Moo_O> especially if you are working something broken as PHP :)
  910. # [19:42] <Pomax> see? moo clearly likes ruby, but not php
  911. # [19:42] <Pomax> but his solution's sneaky and practical.
  912. # [19:42] <Moo_O> I don't especially like ruby... never used it
  913. # [19:42] <Moo_O> but I understand points developing on it and it only :)
  914. # [19:42] <Pomax> if only parrot code was attractive to work in.
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  916. # [19:43] <Moo_O> parrot the vm?
  917. # [19:43] <Pomax> yeah
  918. # [19:43] <Moo_O> not parrot the monkey island the game
  919. # [19:43] <Pomax> write the code, make it output [insert language here] source code
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  921. # [19:43] <JonathanNeal> php is not that bad
  922. # [19:44] <Pomax> it's not that bad, it has flaws that you can ham up and make sound horrible.
  923. # [19:44] <Moo_O> JonathanNeal: yes.... things could be worse
  924. # [19:44] <Moo_O> but visual basic is dying ^_ ^
  925. # [19:44] <JonathanNeal> it's really quite awesome, most popular cms' are also built on it
  926. # [19:44] <JonathanNeal> wordpress, drupal, modx, etc.
  927. # [19:44] <Pomax> like an inconsistent API, no concept of Unicode, and the ability to control whether you're passing copies or references.
  928. # [19:44] <Pomax> no, no, the "people use it" argument is never valid =)
  929. # [19:45] <Pomax> there's also Jango, which is decidedly not PHP, for instance
  930. # [19:45] <Moo_O> by that argument IE6 is a good browser
  931. # [19:45] <JonathanNeal> IE IS THE PEOPLES BROWSA!
  932. # [19:45] <Pomax> and Joomla
  933. # [19:45] <JonathanNeal> :)
  934. # [19:45] <Pomax> oh god. it's funny because it's true T_T
  935. # [19:45] <JonathanNeal> okay where's documentation on how to parse SASS, maybe I can write this.
  936. # [19:45] <JonathanNeal> parsing strings is fun
  937. # [19:45] <Pomax> on the very first page
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  939. # [19:46] <Moo_O> JonathanNeal: just use regular expressions
  940. # [19:46] <Pomax> you can't write a parser based on the syntax examples???!?!??!1?two
  941. # [19:46] <Moo_O> simple and reliable
  942. # [19:46] <ztane> :DD
  943. # [19:46] <JonathanNeal> Pomax: point me to a sass file
  944. # [19:46] <JonathanNeal> im @ http://sass-lang.com/tutorial.html reading in the meantime
  945. # [19:47] <JonathanNeal> this is not a time for regular expressions as much as char by char intrepreting, much like you do for comments Pomax.
  946. # [19:47] <Pomax> I'll do you one better.
  947. # [19:47] <Pomax> http://sass-lang.com/docs/yardoc/file.SASS_REFERENCE.html
  948. # [19:48] <Pomax> that should hold you over for a while
  949. # [19:50] <JonathanNeal> indeed! time to write a char by char css expander
  950. # [19:50] <JonathanNeal> i think adding each feature in order of the tutorial would be easiest too, they get progressively more difficult.
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  967. # [20:11] <ghinda> ssup G's?
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  969. # [20:12] <Pomax> hmmm.. chriseppstein, when you get back: since SASS generates "final" CSS (all the implicit design-entanglement is discarded during the css compilation), you lose the design information that ties elements together. Will SASS reject putting in a @macros block for use with cssmacros.js?
  970. # [20:12] <Pomax> if not, that would be a genuinely awesome combinatio
  971. # [20:12] <Pomax> +n
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  977. # [20:14] <ProLoser|Work> hey guys, i forgot, what was the case for NOT using a separate stylesheet for ie fixes?
  978. # [20:14] <ProLoser|Work> i know i remember reading about it somewhere in the html5bp
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  984. # [20:17] <mrgreenfur> Anyone know if it's possible to put two handles on an html5 slider input?
  985. # [20:17] <mrgreenfur> (type="range")
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  988. # [20:19] <smsfail> anyone, I am trying to sort out why my content is running off inside the box: http://i.imgur.com/SYYqW.png
  989. # [20:20] <smsfail> it should be more like this: http://i.imgur.com/OWGGj.png
  990. # [20:20] <smsfail> which is not cut off
  991. # [20:20] <smsfail> I know I haven't posted code, but I am looking for how to track down what might be causing this.
  992. # [20:20] * jacine is now known as jacine|afk
  993. # [20:20] <smsfail> I am using firebug, but not sure how to find the problem
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  996. # [20:22] <Pomax> don't use images, show us the actual page.
  997. # [20:22] <Pomax> then we can help debug it
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  999. # [20:23] <Pomax> you can hit "inspect element" on your container, and see what its computed style is for overflow
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  1004. # [20:24] <Pomax> additionally, look at what the "position" property for the contained elements is. they could be absolute for some reason, with top/left position so that it looks like they're 'inside' your containing element
  1005. # [20:24] <chriseppstein> Pomax: sass will probably just pass that thru. plz test
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  1046. # [21:26] <harish> hi there
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  1053. # [21:29] <newz2000> Is there an equiv for colgroup but for rows?
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  1079. # [21:57] <Pomax> chriseppstein: seems to work fine. best of both worlds.
  1080. # [21:57] <chriseppstein> Pomax: Sass tries to stay out of the way whenever it can
  1081. # [21:57] <Pomax> very nice
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  1097. # [22:10] <Pomax> page adjusted to tell people to use both SASS and cssmacros.js
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  1110. # [22:26] <chriseppstein> Pomax: what page
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  1182. # Session Close: Wed Nov 16 00:00:00 2011

The end :)