/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-11-23 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Nov 23 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:20] <franksalim> has anyone made a graph of the normative references between the specs that browsers implement?
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# [00:22] <franksalim> phrased differently: I think I'm going to make a big interactive map of standards!
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# [00:24] <divya> woo :)
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# [00:30] <michelem> hello folks. The W3C validator gives me "Bad value for attribute action on element form: Must be non-empty." because I use <form action="" ..>
# [00:31] <michelem> the url is computed by the authentication engine and contains variable parameters. Is there any way to work around the validation error and still maintain a "post to current url" behavior?
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# [00:42] <Pomax> action="."
# [00:42] <Pomax> because "." means "this location"
# [00:42] <Pomax> and ".." means "one dir up"
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# [00:48] <michelem> would that preserve parameters?
# [00:48] <Pomax> which parameters
# [00:49] <michelem> landing to http://site.com/path/?next=foo , would action="." send to http://site.com/path/?next=foo or just http://site.com/path/ ?
# [00:49] <Pomax> the latter.
# [00:49] <Pomax> if you want to preserve parameters, add them to your form using "<input type='hidden' name='monkey' value='banana'>"
# [00:49] <michelem> why in the sky was this constraint introduced?
# [00:49] <Pomax> you could write some JS to do this automatically based on window.location
# [00:50] <Pomax> because arguments are single time things
# [00:50] <michelem> I will just ignore the validation outcome for that part.
# [00:51] <Pomax> if I call "index.html?lol=rofl", then relative links are relative to my page. not to my page+args
# [00:51] <Jayflux> Pomax i never knew that about form action
# [00:52] <Pomax> action takes any legal URL, and "." and ".." are legal URLs for "this dir" and "parent dir"
# [00:52] <Pomax> which is why action="index.html" and action="./index.html" do the same thing
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# [00:53] <Pomax> michelem, if you have a form that needs to preserve the arguments, simply use a bit of JS to extend your form, or modify the action.
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# [00:54] <Pomax> <form action="?I=maru"....> on a page "index.asp" will call index.asp?I=maru, for instance. So if you want to explicitly encode arguments that way, that's also fine
# [00:54] <michelem> are you serious? :P
# [00:54] <Pomax> come to think of it, action=?" might even work, although I never tried that O_o
# [00:55] <Pomax> yes, when you want to break out of the default model for how HTML works, any recommendation I do involving "write some JS" is pretty serious =)
# [00:55] <michelem> I think W3C has to revise that constraint, or introduce a conventional representative for "current URI"
# [00:55] <Pomax> no
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# [00:55] <michelem> most definitely, so I'll break it :)
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# [00:56] <Pomax> exactly, so break it with well written JS
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# [00:56] <Pomax> say I go to index.html?user=pomax
# [00:56] <Pomax> and there's a relative link to "test.html"
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# [00:56] <Pomax> where should it go? ./test.html?user=pomax?
# [00:56] <michelem> Pomax: I think both you and I have better ways to spend time :)
# [00:57] <Pomax> I don't know, you're asking a question, I'm answering it, if you think that's a waste of time, something went wrong =)
# [00:57] <michelem> I think it's great that you have thorough and dedicated. And I think this constraint is short sighted
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# [00:58] <Pomax> think of it this way: arguments are not HTML
# [00:58] <michelem> and I represent industry, which cares about practicality. This is not practical, here's my answer to W3C: I'll just break it.
# [00:58] <Pomax> they are instructions to the server.
# [00:58] <Pomax> which means that your server can do something with them, to generate content.
# [00:58] <Pomax> that includes making sure that content that needs to further use them in links, has them right there.
# [00:59] <Pomax> it's your responsibility.
# [00:59] <Pomax> if you're using PHP or something to accept those arguments, then you get to write the code to inject them into the form that gets generates for that page.
# [00:59] <Pomax> it's pretty simple that way
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# [00:59] <michelem> Pomax: short sighted. Think of a login form, where ?next=X is the landing page after it. Params are just the right way to do it
# [01:00] <michelem> it has nothing to do with the page's own content, yet it needs to be passed on
# [01:00] <Pomax> you're missing the point. where do params *GO*
# [01:00] <Pomax> if you have plain html content, they don't go anywhere, argument parsing is not part of HTML, it's part of "server-side handling"
# [01:00] <Pomax> so that's where you make the magic happen.
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# [01:00] <michelem> no doubt I can do it with machinery. I just deem it unpractical.
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# [01:01] <Pomax> and that's how new technology is born.
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# [01:07] <ChrisPartridge> Hello, I'm drawing some elements onto a canvas - everything works fine in desktop browsers, but when i load it on the ipad, i get no errors - but nothing drawn on the canvas. I've done some logging and the the code appears to be getting the 2d context. Any have any ideas?
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# [01:18] <Pomax> ChrisPartridge, don't have an ipad (sadly =) but have you tried reducing to see if it does simply draw instructions like a plain canvas with some rect/paths?
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# [01:20] <ChrisPartridge> Pomax, if I create the dom manually - and get the element by id, it works fine. But building dynamically appears to be the issue, i thought it was a timing problem, but the context is available when I draw - and all elements have been appended to the dom - going strip code out I think, has to be something silly
# [01:20] <Pomax> with some luck it'll turn out to be.
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# [01:51] <Rennan> guys
# [01:51] <Rennan> i need a help
# [01:51] <Pomax> prove it
# [01:51] <Rennan> about webgl
# [01:52] <Rennan> I'm thinking of writing something about WebGL for my post graduation course end
# [01:52] <Rennan> would like to talk about webgl, but it's not simple or easy, to write something cool I need to find a problem about this technology and speak how this aims to solve a practical problem or propose a solution to a research problem, applicable to various practical situations or not
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# [01:53] <Pomax> look up XB pointstream
# [01:53] <dilvie> Rennan: If you're going to write something useful, you may want to avoid run on sentences. =)
# [01:53] <Pomax> portuguese.
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# [01:57] <Rennan> I joined in channel webgl, but only one guy told me something
# [01:58] <Rennan> <visy> there's some webgl visualization of the brain
# [01:58] <Rennan> <visy> maybe that's a good topic
# [01:58] <Rennan> <visy> visulization of medical imagery on browsers
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# [01:58] <Pomax> Rennan: http://asalga.wordpress.com/category/xb-pointstream/
# [01:58] <eggsby> http://www.zygotebody.com/ is that
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# [02:00] <Rennan> so i saw this project
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# [02:01] <Rennan> i'm monitoring the hashtag on twitter too
# [02:01] <Rennan> i'll see, thx Pomax
# [02:02] <Rennan> dilvie its true
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# [02:03] <Pomax> I wish there was a json equivalent of SVG
# [02:04] <Pomax> because right now I'm glad the server can do gzipping =/
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# [02:06] <ChrisPartridge> Pomax: appears to be when the <canvas> is larger than the screen - nothing is drawn
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# [02:07] <Pomax> at all, or does it do something funky with the coordinate system so you draw on the bits that you can't see?
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# [02:08] <ChrisPartridge> Well, it's doing something - but the results are not visible, so you may be right
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# [02:11] <thatryan> anyone know a way to automatically clean out duplicate RSS feeds in google reader? subscribed to paul_irish bundle and have tons of dupes now
# [02:12] <paul_irish> idont
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# [02:12] <eggsby> ya thatryan I was a bit wary of those bundles
# [02:12] <eggsby> I'm sure it was top notch content but the constant torrent of it... I think I'd drown
# [02:12] <paul_irish> so drowny
# [02:13] <eggsby> do you subscribe to those yourself paul_irish ?
# [02:13] <paul_irish> yup.
# [02:13] <eggsby> :o
# [02:13] <paul_irish> ive always subscribed to lots.
# [02:13] <thatryan> there is a butt full of great information
# [02:13] <eggsby> certainly a butt full
# [02:14] <thatryan> but i subscribed to your last bundle you let out too paul lol so i inadvertantly got a ton of duplicates
# [02:14] <xonecas> Pomax: portuguese what?
# [02:15] <Pomax> portuguese as in Rennan's main language isn't English?
# [02:16] <xonecas> oh, cool, another portuguese guy in here \o/
# [02:16] <Rennan> Pomax yep.
# [02:16] <Rennan> \o/
# [02:16] <Rennan> rs
# [02:16] <Pomax> hostmasks. they're pretty handy =)
# [02:17] <Rennan> i'm I'm seeing the page you sent me
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# [02:17] <xonecas> thatryan: I believe that there is a userscript for greader to remove dupes.
# [02:18] <xonecas> damn
# [02:18] <xonecas> how's that bot-t command to tell him later?
# [02:18] <Rennan> sorry for duplicated
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# [02:22] <Pomax> hm. does jQuery work when a page has svg embedded...
# [02:22] <xonecas> some good articles: http://alexmaccaw.co.uk/posts/async_ui
# [02:22] <xonecas> http://lostechies.com/derickbailey/2011/11/22/backbone-vs-knockout/
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# [02:23] <ChrisPartridge> Pomax: it does
# [02:24] <Pomax> nice
# [02:24] <Pomax> because if there's one thing SVG can't do it's center text...
# [02:25] <shepazu> Pomax: you mean center text vertically?
# [02:25] <franksalim> Pomax: not sure if serious
# [02:25] <Pomax> no, horizontally.
# [02:25] <shepazu> um
# [02:25] <shepazu> joking?
# [02:25] <franksalim> woosh?
# [02:25] <eggsby> Ya xonecas I prefer the term 'otpimistic ui' rather than async ui for what that describes
# [02:25] <eggsby> But Alex MacCaw is great, have you read his book?
# [02:25] <Pomax> serious, but possibly missing something, I don't see any properties in <text></text> that let me indicate the textbox size for auto centering.
# [02:26] <xonecas> eggsby: i agree, but that's how ui should be, fast and responsive. No I havent, I will though :-)
# [02:26] <franksalim> if there's one thing SVG can do, it's center text
# [02:26] <Pomax> do please edumificate.
# [02:26] <eggsby> It's really excellent, especially if you are interested in stuff like knockout/backbone
# [02:26] <Pomax> because I'd like to generate these few thousand SVG documents with centered text =P
# [02:26] <eggsby> xonecas: http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920018421.do
# [02:26] <xonecas> i work with backbone on a daily basis
# [02:26] <shepazu> <text x="50%" y="65" font-size="20" text-anchor="middle">Centered, yo.</text>
# [02:27] <xonecas> i'll probably love it
# [02:27] <Pomax> shepazu: 50% of what?
# [02:27] <eggsby> Then the stuff might be rudimentary to you, but I really enjoy the bottom up approach to clientside mvc tools he gives
# [02:27] <Pomax> if it works: perfect. but why does it work
# [02:27] <shepazu> 50% of viewbox
# [02:28] <shepazu> also, text-anchor="middle"
# [02:28] <shepazu> (now available as a property, too!)
# [02:28] <Pomax> so for something inside a <group>, it'd still need a wraping viewbox element?
# [02:28] <xonecas> eggsby: everyone has bad habits and these type of top down approaches really help fixing them
# [02:28] <Pomax> <g>, not <group>
# [02:28] <Pomax> also, *wrapping
# [02:28] <shepazu> no, Pomax
# [02:28] <Pomax> man my typing is just going downhill here
# [02:28] <eggsby> Is there any primary book on html5 emerging, or is http://developers.whatwg.org/ still the go-to source
# [02:28] <shepazu> SVG don't play that way
# [02:29] <shepazu> it's got absolute positioning, not CSS box model
# [02:29] <Pomax> I have X content 'blocks', and I need the labels for each block centered horizontally.
# [02:29] <Pomax> right now I'm doing block position using <g> with incremental x values
# [02:29] <eggsby> Is there any book that could be said to be authoritative on html5 yet? I've been wanting to pick something up
# [02:29] <shepazu> centered on the screen, or relative to some other content?
# [02:30] <xonecas> i still refer to that link, although remysharp 's book is amazing
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# [02:30] <eggsby> xonecas: I'm not familiar with that one, what's it called?
# [02:30] <shepazu> it is nimbupani!
# [02:30] <xonecas> let me get you a link
# [02:30] <eggsby> ah nvm, found it, 'Introducting html5' ?
# [02:31] <Pomax> shepazu, relative to the group content. Every block is has content that covers 1000 by 1000 units, and the text sits at the bottom.
# [02:31] <eggsby> Thanks xonecas
# [02:31] <xonecas> yep, very well written imho
# [02:31] <franksalim> Pomax: give the text x=500 units and text-anchor="middle"
# [02:31] <eggsby> The developers whatwg guide is nice if I want to figure out the usage for something in particular, but it didn't feel very readable
# [02:32] <eggsby> Not readable but... structured or something :p
# [02:32] <xonecas> i <3 because it has a good search :-)
# [02:32] <shepazu> Pomax, what franksalim said
# [02:32] <Pomax> franksalim, that sounds pretty sensible.
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# [02:34] <Pomax> nice. thanks franksalim, shepazu
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# [02:35] <Pomax> time to restart this 20991 image job
# [02:35] <Pomax> (yay, unicode!)
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# [02:42] <Rennan> Pomax, are you envolved in this project? https://github.com/asalga/XB-PointStream
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# [02:43] <Pomax> I work on Processing.js, the webgl part of which Andor helps out on.
# [02:43] <Pomax> so there's a lot of pointstream exposure in our channel.
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# [02:45] <nimbu> hi shepazu!!
# [02:45] <nimbu> sorry was experimenting with somethings
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# [02:46] <shepazu> np
# [02:46] <shepazu> howdy
# [02:46] <nimbu> did you say something? I missed it.
# [02:46] <nimbu> i am good!
# [02:46] <nimbu> hows you?
# [02:46] <shepazu> am good
# [02:46] <shepazu> tired :)
# [02:46] * nimbu is now known as divya
# [02:46] <divya> haha
# [02:46] <shepazu> but happy w3conf went ok
# [02:46] <divya> ya me too
# [02:47] <shepazu> ok, movie time
# [02:47] <Rennan> nice :-)
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# [03:05] <Rennan> Pomax and guys thx for the help and tips.. i'll find a way to proceed my research and probably i'll be here in next days, weeks... months =)
# [03:05] <Rennan> I gonna get out now, here is 0:00
# [03:05] <Rennan> really apreciated, man! \o
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# [07:07] <parshap> anyone have an idea how to style a definition list to appear inline and display the definition before the term?
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# [10:11] <jayflux> how did google make their doodle like that without any flash
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# [10:25] <pixolin> hello. Is there a way to format the input field <input type="date" ...> to use another date format, i.e. dd.mm.YYYY?
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# [10:37] <Trisox> pixolin: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/states-of-the-type-attribute.html#date-state
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# [10:39] <pixolin> so ...it's the browser that formats the input field if I get it right?
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# [10:43] <Trisox> mm for now thats what i think yes
# [10:44] <pixolin> Trisox: not quite how I wished it would be, but thanks anyway
# [10:44] <pixolin> appreciate your help.
# [10:44] <Trisox> i'm still pretty skeptical of using them yesterday i used numbers and it added decimals
# [10:45] <pixolin> oh? thanks for the hint.
# [10:45] <Trisox> so i wanned to use step=""
# [10:46] <Trisox> but no luck...
# [10:46] <Trisox> that was in webkit if i remember corectly
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# [10:46] <Trisox> i was working on mobile..site so i thought wy not use it to show numberic keyboard etc...
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# [12:38] <Alex82> hello
# [12:39] <Alex82> How can I reassign all index keys starting from 0 to 9 to LocalStorage existing keys ?
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# [12:42] <SoulRaven> i have ask to css but none aswer
# [12:42] <SoulRaven> is it posibile to trigger an animation when an element is visibile?
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# [13:58] <jblanche> Hi all
# [14:00] <jblanche> Is there any way to use a base64 encoded monochrome svg as a background image and still being able to change the fill color via CSS ?
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# [14:14] <jblanche> Here is an example of the "problem" :) http://jsfiddle.net/RPW5e/1/
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# [14:32] <Alex82> helllo
# [14:32] <Alex82> cause when i delete multiple values then after few deletion and adding new tasks it won t print the tasks cause its index has gone over the loop
# [14:32] <Alex82> i mean
# [14:32] <Alex82> building an app with HTML5 + Jquery - I got a bug in my code. Basically I would need to reassign all the keys and values with index from 0 to the last element present in the localStorage. How can I do that? http://jsfiddle.net/Jb9QD/1/
# [14:33] <Alex82> cause when i delete multiple values then after few deletion and adding new tasks it won t print the tasks cause its index has gone over the loop
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# [17:18] <lugzer> hi
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# [17:21] <BrianBlakely1> Wassup you big lugzer
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# [17:22] <lugzer> big?
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# [17:24] <lugzer> i been reading up on html5rocks about semantic tags (article/section) but sometimes i'm still struggling when to use which. for instance i have a panel (div) which will have sections and also a notification area. and now, which tag to use for notifications?
# [17:25] <Jon47> lugzer don't sweat it too much
# [17:25] <lugzer> looks like a section to me.. but then "if this content made sense on its own in RSS" ... well kinda..
# [17:25] <lugzer> Jon47, i know, maybe i am sweating it too much...
# [17:26] <Jon47> lugzer the community is still kind of hashing out what the best way to use that stuff is
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# [17:26] <Jon47> accessibility is the main thing
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# [17:26] <Jon47> and the difference between section/article/aside/div doesn't really do much for accessibility at this time
# [17:26] <lugzer> okay
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# [17:27] <lugzer> but, apart from accesibility, those tags allow to define more specific structure..
# [17:27] <Jon47> so for now, just pick one and check back in later
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# [17:28] <lugzer> okay got that. thanks for the tip Jon47
# [17:28] <Jon47> lugzer here's some stuff written by the web heroes about the topic: http://coding.smashingmagazine.com/2011/11/12/pursuing-semantic-value/
# [17:28] <Jon47> check the comments too
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# [17:36] <lugzer> Jon47, thanks jumpin on it
# [17:36] <Jon47> don't thank me ;) just passing the word along
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# [17:38] <divya> lugzer: just use a div if you have doubts
# [17:38] <divya> :)
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# [17:38] <lugzer> sure ;)
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# [17:38] <divya> thats all. dont waste your time wondering which to use when
# [17:39] <lugzer> yeah, in general it's easy to get. it's just sometimes i start to think too much. agreed
# [17:40] <lugzer> and since it's an application, it won't have real semantic value. but it is kinda better to develop than pure div soup
# [17:40] <divya> yeah it makes easier to grok
# [17:41] <jarek__> my personal guess is that semantic tags will not matter in near future
# [17:42] <jarek__> as search engines will become even more intelligent
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# [17:44] <lugzer> finger bender, that's cool ;)
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# [17:46] <divya> :)
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# [18:11] <lugzer> ok both articles and comments interesting. now i'm ready. thanks for the links!
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# [18:14] <simenbrekken> Does anyone have any numbers when it comes to replacing a chunk of HTML via innerHTML/$.html() versus querying and modifying relevant nodes?
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# [18:19] <jarek__> simenbrekken: element.innerHTML should be always faster
# [18:19] <Jon47> i think it's usually faster to replace the whole thing in one action than to pick and choose a number of different modifications to make
# [18:19] <Jon47> but you might want to test your specific example w/ jsperf
# [18:20] <simenbrekken> yeah I thought so as well, I'm planning to use Handlebars/whatevertemplatesystem.io to simply replace the contents of my container.
# [18:20] <jarek__> but element.textContent might be faster if you want to append only text
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# [18:22] <jarek__> http://jsperf.com/innerhtml-vs-createelement-test
# [18:22] <simenbrekken> this is more modifying element contents though
# [18:22] <jarek__> Chrome is lagging behind in this benchmark, that's strange
# [18:23] <simenbrekken> IE8 is pretty close though! ;)
# [18:24] <Jon47> also now we get this method as well: http://hacks.mozilla.org/2011/11/insertadjacenthtml-enables-faster-html-snippet-injection/
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# [18:34] <xonecas> o/ howdy folks!
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# [18:35] <xonecas> http://hacks.mozilla.org/2011/11/webinar-indexeddb-with-jonas-sicking/ --> looking forward to this!!
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# [19:32] <thatryan> Are there any good articles on using classes vs id's? I had always worked thinking id's were better to use until seeing some talk recently on classes are preferred
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# [19:34] <dilvie> thatryan: use the right tool for the job.
# [19:34] <dilvie> Classes should be used to select things you can have more than one of on a page.
# [19:34] <thatryan> lol yes, hence my question :)
# [19:35] <dilvie> ID's are better for resources that need to be uniquely identified (only one on each page).
# [19:36] <dilvie> for example, say you have a collection of records in a list. Each list item might have a class="record". But maybe each individual record has a unique id: id="5dc040f2-bbe7-4aa6-af94-bac58d35a39a"
# [19:37] <dilvie> Then you can select all records with .record
# [19:37] <dilvie> and a single record by ID
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# [19:38] <thatryan> right yeah I know that and I use them properly
# [19:40] <dilvie> cool. Stick to that convention. The disadvantage of using class when you really mean ID is that you can have ambiguous selections... there is a chance your selections could refer to multiple elements or the wrong element using classes. If you use ID's and your markup is valid, you're safe.
# [19:40] <dilvie> that said, if you have an id with some generic name like "content"
# [19:40] <dilvie> that's bad, too.
# [19:40] <dilvie> That should probably by a class, instead.
# [19:41] <thatryan> yeah, I know that I do that part correctly, lol and no I always name id's something meaningful :)
# [19:41] <dilvie> basically, if your IDs can't be replaced with GUID strings with relatively little impact on your application, you should probably re-evaluate the way you use ID.
# [19:41] <dilvie> For example, if you can't safely replace "content" with "e631dd51-e13b-4e9a-beb6-0d42073ac25b"
# [19:42] <dilvie> maybe re-evaluate yoru choice to use ID in that case.
# [19:43] <dilvie> thatryan: that's what I'm talking about -- maybe consider that ID's shouldn't be named anything meaningful. A random string is a good name for an ID. =)
# [19:43] <dilvie> classes should be named something meaningful. ;)
# [19:43] <thatryan> ahhh
# [19:44] <divya> nothing needs semantic names really.
# [19:44] <thatryan> see I always thought they should be but i dont know why lol
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# [19:45] <divya> thatryan: you just need smthing that works for you and your team.
# [19:45] <divya> if its a grid structure, a-b-c or whatever use that.
# [19:46] <thatryan> divya: yeah, and i do, i was more just investigating the how's and why's of it all, know what i mean?
# [19:46] <divya> yeah definitely.
# [19:46] <divya> i think a few people wrote on this topic.
# [19:46] <divya> snook also has written a book on maintainable css
# [19:46] <divya> ?g smacss snook
# [19:46] <bot-t> divya, Scalable and Modular Architecture for CSS - http://smacss.com/
# [19:47] <thatryan> oh nice, thanks :)
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# [20:05] <dilvie> cool
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# [21:05] <JonathanNeal> Good afternoon :D
# [21:05] <franksalim> hello
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# [21:06] <moo-_-> evening
# [21:06] <JonathanNeal> so many timezones.
# [21:08] <moo-_-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatch_Internet_Time welcome to the nte
# [21:08] <moo-_-> internets
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# Session Close: Thu Nov 24 00:00:00 2011

The end :)