/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-11-30 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Nov 30 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:10] <djazz> anyone wanna tryout my HTML5+Node.JS=realtime collaboration level editor?
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# [00:13] <djazz> See it live here: http://djazz.mine.nu:8010/
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# [00:14] <paul_irish> hot
# [00:14] <djazz> Works best in Chrome, FF should work but i don't guarantee
# [00:15] <djazz> And Safari should work, as its also Webkit
# [00:15] <djazz> Opera and IE don't have typed arrays yet
# [00:16] <djazz> screenshot: http://www.jazz2online.com/downloads/6806/screenshots/2/
# [00:17] <ProLoser|Work> i have just found the greatest developer resource i will ever use; http://slipsum.com/#.TtVmVXP8dCw
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# [00:17] <franksalim> djazz: don't preview versions of IE and opera have typed arrays?
# [00:18] <djazz> franksalim: yeah i saw typed arrays on MSDN for Metro apps
# [00:18] <franksalim> djazz: oh hey, you crashed my browser. that hasn't happened in a while
# [00:18] <djazz> but, IE9 and below
# [00:18] <djazz> what browser?
# [00:19] <franksalim> Chrome dev linux
# [00:19] <djazz> crashed how, freezed?
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# [00:19] <franksalim> process died
# [00:19] <djazz> it just takes a while to load the tileset list
# [00:19] <djazz> it says you joined
# [00:19] <franksalim> i had to restart chrome
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# [00:20] <djazz> while developing this level editor i ran into many chrome bugs, freezing the entire browser...
# [00:20] <djazz> now its speedy :P
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# [00:22] <franksalim> very cool
# [00:23] <djazz> almost 300 kb javascript code
# [00:24] <djazz> press B to select tiles, press B again to finish selection
# [00:24] <BrianBlakely> djazz, can these levels be played in a Mario-esque platformer?
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# [00:26] <djazz> BrianBlakely: this level editor is for a game called Jazz Jackrabbit 2. It's a platformer
# [00:26] <djazz> i did not make the game, Epic Games did
# [00:26] <djazz> and this editor is just an improved clone of the original editor
# [00:26] <djazz> I did not have access to any original code
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# [00:30] <BrianBlakely> djazz: I know Jazz Jackrabbit, though granted by reputation alone, as I was a console-only gamer at the time
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# [00:31] <djazz> JJ2, not JJ1
# [00:32] <BrianBlakely> Did that come out for console?
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# [00:32] <djazz> yea
# [00:32] <djazz> JJ2 was released for Win95
# [00:32] <BrianBlakely> Ah
# [00:32] <djazz> in 1998
# [00:32] <djazz> JJ1 for DOS 1994
# [00:33] <BrianBlakely> Which console was it released for?
# [00:33] <djazz> ahh sorry, console window xD
# [00:33] <djazz> DOS
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# [00:33] <djazz> not a console u connected to TV
# [00:34] <djazz> JJ1 won the arcade game of the year award in 1994, i think
# [00:35] <djazz> JJ3 was to be released to PS2 but JJ3 got canceled
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# [00:39] <BrianBlakely> djazz: Ah, that is my only usage of the word.
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# [00:41] <djazz> the level editors i have seen with HTML5 and canvas have not been very impressive
# [00:41] <djazz> except for the 3D ones ofc
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# [00:49] <djazz> BrianBlakely, franksalim: Comparison between the original and my HTML5 version: http://i.imgur.com/Zc8aU.png
# [00:50] <BrianBlakely> djazz: Nice, virtually no difference. I think I know where your handle is from now ;)
# [00:51] <djazz> handle?
# [00:51] <BrianBlakely> "djazz"
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# [00:51] <djazz> actually, dj are my initials, added jazz: djazz
# [00:52] <grantg> :|
# [00:52] <djazz> hi
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# [00:54] <djazz> BrianBlakely: its also on chrome webstore, just a bookmark, really: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/aknledcfpmoikjolpgdpadhmhnbemnjd
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# [00:58] <djazz> night
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# [00:59] <grantg> nn
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# [02:24] <franksalim> RFC 6455
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# [02:29] <industrial-ghett> i have a question... i put my html here: http://www.pastie.org/2941821 but i can't figure out why there's spaces between the images. i've read about cellpadding and adding <br> but it doesn't seem to help
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# [02:30] <hkhalid> firebug could tell you
# [02:30] <industrial-ghett> what's a firebug
# [02:30] <industrial-ghett> i see a firefly
# [02:30] <hkhalid> its for firefox
# [02:31] <industrial-ghett> i'm using safari
# [02:32] <industrial-ghett> looks like a cool tool
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# [02:34] <hkhalid> industrial-ghett, use it for your life
# [02:34] <industrial-ghett> hkhalid sounds pretty ominous
# [02:35] <hkhalid> do you have an iphone
# [02:35] <industrial-ghett> me? no iphone. my company bought me a spamdroid
# [02:36] <hkhalid> spam?
# [02:36] <industrial-ghett> i just don't like the phone. it has rebooted on me during conversations, it gets hung all the time. really, it's not very domesticated
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# [02:39] <industrial-ghett> ok now i've loaded teh page in firefox and i have firebug installed what should i do to learn about it?
# [02:40] <hkhalid> taje that blue arrow and highlight the white space
# [02:40] <hkhalid> and click it
# [02:40] <hkhalid> and it will tell you what you edit
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# [02:40] <industrial-ghett> aha i see that it's adding space below the image, not on top of it
# [02:41] <hkhalid> ok so edit the css you biatch
# [02:41] <industrial-ghett> it seems to indicated that it adds the space between the <td> and the <img>
# [02:41] <hkhalid> do you have this uploaded?
# [02:41] <hkhalid> I can take a better look
# [02:41] <industrial-ghett> well it's uploaded but not the images are thanks i might be able to figgur this out
# [02:42] <industrial-ghett> well maybe, see what my ip is and try to go to (my ip):3000/front_page/index
# [02:42] <industrial-ghett> i don't have any firewalls unless FRONTIER communications has some installed
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# [02:51] <industrial-ghett> can you get to it, hkhalid?
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# [02:54] <hkhalid> link me
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# [02:56] <industrial-ghett> it looks like there is a firewall somewhere, i tried this: http://50.47.158.254:3000/front_page/index but it didn't work, does it work for you?
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# [03:34] <ProLoser|Work> paul_irish: do you know if google has any intention to develop bookmarks out any further?
# [03:35] <ProLoser|Work> i don't like delicious, but the simple feature of an RSS of my own bookmarks being missing is sort of lame
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# [03:49] <paul_irish> ProLoser|Work: i would look into chrome extensions
# [03:49] <ProLoser|Work> I have looked into a lot of different solutions
# [03:49] <ProLoser|Work> i sorta realized that it's ridiculous to use chrome extensions
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# [03:49] <thatryan> paul_irish: aren't you supposed to be on a bus ;)
# [03:49] <ProLoser|Work> instead i just use the bookmarklet for adding/editing
# [03:50] <ProLoser|Work> and i use search engines for browsing
# [03:50] <ProLoser|Work> but what i want to do is have it so any time i add a bookmark to google bookmarks, i can tweet or post to facebook
# [03:50] <ProLoser|Work> without RSS that's sort of impossible
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# [04:02] <paul_irish> ProLoser|Work: yeah what i'm saying is there should be an extension that hijacks your bookmarks data and provides it in a better format such that you could send it out and then generate an rss
# [04:02] <ProLoser|Work> interesting
# [04:03] <ProLoser|Work> well i got so fed up i decided to build my own bookmarking tool and just decided to submit to that instead
# [04:03] <ProLoser|Work> and then i could have IT cc to google or something
# [04:03] <ProLoser|Work> whatever danke anyway
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# [04:20] <paul_irish> can someone volunteer to fix the inline event handler in https://developer.mozilla.org/Writing_Forward_Compatible_Websites ?
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# [04:24] <paul_irish> :'(
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# [04:29] <tw2113> ah crap...we evoked an apostrophe out of paul_irish
# [04:30] <tw2113> i'm not sure what it needs to be changed to, or which part
# [04:30] <tw2113> but i have an account
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# [04:46] <ianawilson> hi everyone. I am hitting a brick wall dealing with getImageData() and CORS. Is there any way to make this work without doing something like a proxy server?
# [04:46] <ianawilson> is it possible to tell the browser that the canvas isn't tainted?
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# [05:04] <JonathanNeal> If I gave you a starting node with an offset and an ending node with an offset, could you tell me all of the html between them?
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# [05:11] <ianawilson> anybody able to explain / help me with the crossOrigin attribute for img?
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# [06:11] <paul_irish> ianawilson: no. only new chrome and FF can do crossOrigin
# [06:12] <paul_irish> everyone else needs proxy serve
# [06:12] <paul_irish> r
# [06:14] <ianawilson> i'm using chrome 17 dev, but i'm getting errors
# [06:14] <paul_irish> the server has to respond correctly
# [06:14] <paul_irish> so like
# [06:14] <paul_irish> h5bp htaccess just added this
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# [06:16] <ianawilson> paul_irish: what do you mean by the server needs to respond correctly?
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# [06:17] <paul_irish> so the server needs to give cors headers
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# [06:17] <paul_irish> and just because your browser sends request headers saying I WANT CORS
# [06:17] <paul_irish> doesnt mean the server will comply
# [06:17] <ianawilson> right right right
# [06:18] <ianawilson> so, here was my confusion: i checked and double checked that graph.facebook.com had Access-Control-Allow-Origin, which it does
# [06:18] <ianawilson> but forgot that images are actually coming from elsewhere
# [06:19] <ianawilson> which don't appear to have any of that in their headers
# [06:20] <ianawilson> yup
# [06:20] <ianawilson> that's it
# [06:20] <ianawilson> so if *.fbcdn.net had that header, it would work, yes?
# [06:23] <c_t_montgomery> boom.
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# [06:26] <paul_irish> ya
# [06:26] <ianawilson> c_t_montgomery: was that at me? :)
# [06:26] <ianawilson> aye
# [06:26] <c_t_montgomery> :)
# [06:27] <ianawilson> so, now that that's out of the question, are there any solutions to work around it without a proxy server?
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# [08:01] <anth0ny> Is it possible to get a form to use GET to attach it's values to it's URLs in a fashion such as 'foo.com/?cat=optiona,optionb,optionc' instead of 'foo.com/?cat=optiona&cat=optionb&cat=optionc' ? Here's what I have so far: http://dpaste.com/663685/
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# [08:13] * superevr wondering why ianawilson needed cors to get images from fbcdn.net
# [08:13] <paul_irish> to put em onto a convas
# [08:18] <superevr> cant just use img src?
# [08:18] <superevr> if you use img src, doesn't the image go in the dom and you can then put it in the canvas
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# [08:30] <Pomax> anth0ny: no. See http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#url-encoded-form-data
# [08:31] <Pomax> tl;dr: hurray for legacy formats. you're stuck with key=val, even if you have multiple same-key elements like checkbox groups with 'append to array' notation for names.
# [08:33] <Pomax> of course you can just hack the form to pieces if you have JS available, disable the form's submit(), run your own code to grab all the values and turn them into a compressed format, then do window.location = ... with your custom url.
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# [08:33] <Pomax> although given that you're doing a GET, you're not going to be saving any significant bandwidth with that scheme, given that you'll now have to serve the additional code for doing all the JS trickery
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# [08:36] <Pomax> (and the fact that GET urls can only get so long before the http protocol goes "no. go use POST if you need this much data")
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# [12:40] <Epeli> paul_irish: Modernizr should have detection file input support
# [12:40] <Epeli> iPad :(
# [12:40] <Epeli> Does anyone have idea how to detect that?
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# [12:50] <Aric> doesnt it have it's own browser agent
# [12:51] <Aric> http://scottrockers.com/blog/resources/simple-code-tricks/how-to-detect-ipad-and-redirect-to-ipad-version-website
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# [13:11] <moo-_-> Aric: well yes, but that's totally how you shoud NOT do it :)
# [13:11] <Aric> eh true
# [13:11] <Aric> but he asked how to detect it
# [13:12] <Aric> the code snippet does detect it
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# [14:52] <licenser> wow it exists :D hi everyone
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# [14:55] <licenser> so I want to write a calendar for room planning, meaning I'd have to have multiple 'rows' of calendars, one for each room, and the days as columns, First to mind comes a big ass table with colspan to represent continuous booking but is there a better way?
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# [16:54] <jarek> is it possible to pass full javascript objects between client and server?
# [16:55] <jarek> if I serialize the object with JSON.stringify() and then deserialize it on the other side with JSON.parse() then a lot of information is lost
# [16:55] <jarek> e.g. getters, setters, whether the property is enumerable or not
# [16:56] <JakeA> yeah, methods aren't part of json
# [16:56] <JakeA> Let's assume your object is an instance of Building...
# [16:57] <jarek> ohh, yeah, and the whole prototype chain is lost as well
# [16:57] <jarek> this is the biggest issue
# [16:57] <JakeA> have a method called buildingInstance.serialize() which returns a simple json object that expresses the stuff unique to that instance
# [16:57] <moo-_-> jarek: not with pure JSON
# [16:58] <JakeA> then have another method Building.unserialize(json), which creates an instance based on that json data
# [16:58] <JakeA> the prototype & methods would still be handled by Building
# [16:58] <JakeA> but the information unique to that building, such as the number of windows on the building, would be serialised into json
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# [17:01] <moo-_-> jarek: you would need to transfer the javascript code needed to build classes out of the band, I guess
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# [17:03] <jarek> moo-_-: I do not use "classes" (constructor functions with prototypes), only copy(), merge() and inherit() which are based on Object.create()
# [17:03] <jarek> moo-_-: and when I serialize objects created this way then prototype chain is lost
# [17:04] <jarek> JakeA: but this means that I would have to keep the same definition in two places
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# [17:06] <JakeA> Well, yes. You'd have your Building stored in Building.js, included on the client and server
# [17:06] <jarek> is there any reason why there are no alternative to JSON?
# [17:07] <jarek> it should be possible to implement string-based format that supports all features of JS objects
# [17:07] <jarek> the only issue I can thing of is performance
# [17:08] <jarek> s/thing/think
# [17:08] <JakeA> You're looking for a solution to serialise and deserialise javascript objects. The solution I'm talking about does just that. Except what you're proposing would send the entire definition for each object, whereas mine would be sending less information and works with standard json
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# [17:08] <JakeA> Performance would be a problem, as would object comparrison
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# [17:09] <paul_irish> http://movethewebforward.org/ launched !!!! :D
# [17:09] <paul_irish> pull requests welcome
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# [17:09] <JakeA> in the case where (instance1 === instance2) === true, if you serialise and deserialse each (instance1 === instance2) === false
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# [17:11] <jarek> JakeA: are you sure this is always the case?
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# [17:12] <jarek> JavaScript objects are basically a peace of structured data
# [17:12] <jarek> serialization just turns this data into string
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# [17:13] <jarek> s/peace/piece
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# [17:14] <JakeA> jarek: http://jsfiddle.net/fLGr5/
# [17:15] <JakeA> logs true then false
# [17:15] <jarek> this makes no sense :/
# [17:15] <jarek> what did change between the objects after serialization?
# [17:16] <JakeA> They stopped being references to the same object
# [17:16] <jarek> ahh... so '===' operator checks whether object a is reference to object b
# [17:16] <JakeA> ({} === {}) is false
# [17:17] <jarek> I was afraid that the objects had actually some different properties
# [17:17] <JakeA> even though the objects look the same, each can be altered independently
# [17:17] <JakeA> '==' operator is also comparing references, but it'll convert some types
# [17:18] <JakeA> eg, (true == 1) is true, (true === 1) is false
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# [17:20] <jarek> I see, but this really should be an issue
# [17:20] <jarek> after deserializing an object I could assign it to the original one
# [17:20] <jarek> s/should/should not
# [17:21] <jarek> anyway, is there really no framework for serializing full JS objects?
# [17:21] <jarek> this could be so useful
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# [17:22] <jarek> serialization is required all over the place, not only between client and server but also between webworkers
# [17:22] <jarek> or when using element.dataset
# [17:22] <jarek> or when saving data to localStorage
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# [17:23] <JakeA> Serialising objects is HARD, eg what if the object holds a reference to document.body, what if it has a circular reference?
# [17:24] <martndemus> #movethewebforward
# [17:24] <martndemus> eh
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# [17:27] <jarek> circular references, right... this would be tricky
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# [17:28] <jarek> but wouldn't it be awesome if you could send DOM nodes to server?
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# [17:28] <jarek> they would no longer be bound to the document tree, but still could be very useful
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# [17:29] <JakeA> The dom's a great example actually
# [17:30] <JakeA> A HTMLElement with nodeName div is serialised to string as <div>
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# [17:31] <JakeA> Even though HTMLElement has methods like getElementsByTagName, they're not represented in the serialised form
# [17:32] <JakeA> All the serialised form says is <div>, but the parser knows that <div> is a type of HTMLElement which has methods such as getElementsByTagName
# [17:33] <JakeA> Sending <div> from server to client is inexpensive compared to sending an exhaustive serialisation of the complete dom object. Especially as the DOM is full of circular references
# [17:33] <jarek> JakeA: JSON.stringify($domNode) return error
# [17:33] <jarek> s/return/returns
# [17:33] <JakeA> I'm not suprised
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# [17:34] <JakeA> but element.innerHTML will return a serialisation of its content
# [17:34] <jarek> because it has circural references
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# [17:35] <JakeA> jarek: Yep
# [17:35] <jarek> I wouldn't call converting HTMLElement object to "<div>blah</div>" string serialization :P
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# [17:35] <JakeA> But… it is
# [17:36] <jarek> it's rendering
# [17:36] <jarek> the output is not meant to be processed back to the structure that it was before
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# [17:36] <JakeA> Rendering is when the HTMLElement is turned into bitmap data on your screen
# [17:36] <Jon47> it's converting an element to.. markup?
# [17:37] <Jon47> reverse engineering a DOM to its source..
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# [17:37] <jarek> ok, let's call it very loose serialization
# [17:38] <jarek> but why JSON support some features of JavaScript objects, but ignores other features?
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# [17:38] <jarek> s/support/supports
# [17:38] <jarek> it could have at least comments so that it could be used for config files
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# [17:39] <JakeA> Most serialisation is loose to some extent. Eg we proved json is loose before http://jsfiddle.net/fLGr5/
# [17:40] <moo-_-> jarek: because functions are be shitty to serialize
# [17:40] <moo-_-> jarek: because JSON is interoperatibility language
# [17:40] <JakeA> Oh, I agree that json should have comments. But json is supposed to be a format that isn't exclusive to js, if you support javascript functions in json then the PHP json parser would need to contain something to convert _any_ bit of javascript into PHP
# [17:40] <moo-_-> try read your javascript functions in PHP
# [17:41] <JakeA> hah, snap
# [17:41] <moo-_-> and then come back to tell us how it went :)
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# [17:41] <moo-_-> jarek: I believe no language serialize full code with the objects
# [17:41] <moo-_-> not java, not python etc.
# [17:41] <moo-_-> it's always transfer code off-band
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# [17:42] <moo-_-> but python pickles, for example, support full object serialization
# [17:42] <moo-_-> it's just that including all the code with the object would be pain
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# [17:53] <jarek> why JSON.parse() throws error when the data can't be serialized?
# [17:53] <jarek> in JavaScript world it would make more sense if it had return null
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# [17:54] <JakeA> Why would it make more sense?
# [17:54] <jarek> JakeA: e.g. when I do "document.querySelector('no such element')" it returns null
# [17:55] <jarek> JakeA: this is how a lot of DOM/JS methods behave
# [17:55] <moo-_-> jarek: your statement is not totally correc
# [17:55] <moo-_-> Javascript throws errors in many places
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# [17:55] <JakeA> document.querySelector('{}') throws an error
# [17:55] <jarek> JakeA: I'm not sure how throwing an error could be useful to developer
# [17:55] <JakeA> because it's an invalid selector
# [17:55] <moo-_-> jarek: JSON.parse() is not a queryish method
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# [17:55] <jarek> JakeA: it's easier to test against null value than catching errors
# [17:56] <moo-_-> jarek: that's very bad programming practice
# [17:56] <moo-_-> Javascript is not C
# [17:56] <JakeA> null signifies nothing, throwing an error signifies an exception
# [17:56] <moo-_-> it has exception handling
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# [17:57] <JakeA> querySelector is a good example. It returns null when the input is understood but nothing is found, an error is thrown if the input isn't understood
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# [17:58] <jarek> JakeA: document.querySelector() return null as long as I pass string to it
# [17:58] <jarek> JakeA: the string can be invalid selector
# [17:58] <jarek> s/return/returns
# [17:58] <jarek> sorry for typos
# [17:59] <moo-_-> jarek: document.querySelector() API is not totally sane - you are correc
# [17:59] <miketaylr> not very many JS APIs return null, afaik
# [17:59] <miketaylr> gEBiD, qS/qSA
# [17:59] <jarek> moo-_-: it's not just about querySelector, this pattern is all over the place
# [17:59] <jarek> moo-_-: e.g. window.getComputedStyle('width')
# [17:59] <JakeA> document.querySelector('{}') throws an error for me in chrome
# [18:00] <moo-_-> jarek: it's a bad pattern
# [18:00] <jarek> returns null just like window.getComputedStyle('no such property')
# [18:00] <jarek> moo-_-: I love this pattern :)
# [18:00] <jarek> moo-_-: how do I check whether JSON.parse(data) has managed to serialize data?
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# [18:01] <jarek> moo-_-: you wrap it with try/catch loops?
# [18:01] <moo-_-> jarek: yes
# [18:01] <jarek> :/
# [18:01] <moo-_-> it's not a loop, though
# [18:01] <moo-_-> loop is something like for or while
# [18:01] <jarek> I mean statements
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# [18:01] <moo-_-> jarek: you don't need to wrap if you don't want to handle the error
# [18:01] <alexchamberlain> If JSON.parse returned null on error, what would it return on null? How would you tell the difference?
# [18:02] <moo-_-> also, the exception contains the error message
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# [18:02] <moo-_-> *what* went wrong
# [18:02] <moo-_-> if you return null
# [18:03] <moo-_-> you could as long as write "abort this progam, no error message given"
# [18:03] <moo-_-> "it crashed"
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# [18:03] <jarek> heh, it's actually possible to do JSON.stringify(null)
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# [18:04] <jarek> but JSON.stringify(undefined) does not work as expected
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# [18:04] <JakeA> In query ui, if I do $elm.dialog('clos'), it fails silently. This is a pain to debug.
# [18:05] <JakeA> If it threw an error, and told me there was no such command as 'clos', that would be much more help
# [18:05] <JakeA> jqueryui, I mean
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# [18:23] <jarek> Hoppertje: yes, I was playing with websockets a bit
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# [18:23] <Hoppertje> jarek!!
# [18:23] <Hoppertje> :)
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# [18:23] <Hoppertje> well i am kinda trying to find out what i should be asking my web host provider to install on there server side to be able to use it, any idea?
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# [18:25] <jarek> Hoppertje: I'm currently using Node.js with https://github.com/Worlize/WebSocket-Node
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# [18:25] <jarek> Hoppertje: but I'm using it on localhost
# [18:25] <Hoppertje> thats not gonna work then
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# [18:25] <jarek> Hoppertje: websockets are not mature enough, you shouldn't use them without additional fallbacks
# [18:26] <Hoppertje> but ajax is so unreliable
# [18:26] <Hoppertje> i am getting a lot of random timeouts
# [18:26] <jarek> Hoppertje: AFAIR http://socket.io/ is using WebSockets on modern browsers but falls backs to AJAX
# [18:26] <Hoppertje> hmm
# [18:27] <jarek> Hoppertje: well, with Websockets only you won't get anything on older browsers :P
# [18:27] <Hoppertje> thats ok
# [18:27] <Hoppertje> this socket.io doesnt look like a persistent connection
# [18:27] <Hoppertje> unless you get a private pid on the host
# [18:28] <Hoppertje> jarek: you know what i mean by persistent connection right?
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# [18:29] <jarek> Hoppertje: you mean that after connection the client should keep listening for events?
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# [18:29] <jarek> Hoppertje: isn't this the definition of WebSockets?
# [18:29] <Hoppertje> yah
# [18:30] <Hoppertje> well
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# [18:30] <Hoppertje> yah
# [18:30] <jarek> Hoppertje: I haven't used socket.io, but it is said to use Flash fallback
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# [18:30] <Hoppertje> but thats client side
# [18:31] <Hoppertje> something needs to be continously listening on the server right?
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# [18:31] <jarek> Hoppertje: yes, it will be Node.js with socket.io module
# [18:31] <Hoppertje> socket.io module <- module as in this needs to be installed on apache?
# [18:31] <Hoppertje> (for example)
# [18:32] <jarek> Hoppertje: no, you don't need Apache at all
# [18:32] <Hoppertje> so, i put this in my php script and it keeps the connection open then?
# [18:32] <jarek> Hoppertje: Node.js has HTTP server build in, socke.io just extends it with WebSockets support
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# [18:32] <jarek> s/build in/built-in
# [18:33] <jarek> Hoppertje: you don't need PHP as well :)
# [18:33] <Hoppertje> socket.io <- where is this file
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# [18:34] <jarek> Hoppertje: it's not file, it the name of entire module
# [18:34] <jarek> Hoppertje: check the documentation, you install it with npm module manager
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# [18:35] <Hoppertje> i am lost
# [18:36] <jarek> Hoppertje: first decide which technology you want to use on server side
# [18:36] <jarek> Hoppertje: then look for module for it that provides WebSockets support
# [18:36] <Hoppertje> jarek: I rent my host from a company
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# [18:36] <Hoppertje> (thought i said that?)
# [18:36] <Hoppertje> jarek: this 'module' needs to be installed by my hosting
# [18:36] <Hoppertje> right?
# [18:36] <jarek> Hoppertje: that doesn't tell me much :P
# [18:37] <jarek> Hoppertje: do you have VPS hosting?
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# [18:37] <jarek> Hoppertje: are you allowed to install stuff outside your home directory?
# [18:37] <Hoppertje> no, just a domain with sql/php support
# [18:37] <Hoppertje> nope
# [18:37] <jarek> Hoppertje: ouh... so you don't want to use Node.js
# [18:37] <Hoppertje> so i need to know what to ask the host-company to install for me, if it is possible
# [18:38] <jarek> Hoppertje: sorry, I can't help you with PHP/Apache setup. Node.js is all I use
# [18:38] <Hoppertje> and Node.js gives you a persistent connection?
# [18:39] <jarek> Hoppertje: Websockets give you persistent connection between client and server, it's a protocol, it doesn't matter whether it's implemented on top of PHP or Node.js
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# [18:40] <Hoppertje> really
# [18:41] <Hoppertje> so simply setting up a connection and it keeps the connection alive ?
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# [18:42] <jarek> Hoppertje: Exactly
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# [18:43] <jarek> at least until you reload the page
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# [18:45] <Hoppertje> http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/javascript-ajax/start-using-html5-websockets-today/ according to this you need XAMPP for node.js
# [18:46] <Hoppertje> XAMPP be the module for APACHE
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# [18:48] <jarek> Hoppertje: XAMPP = Apache + MySQL + PHP
# [18:48] <Hoppertje> ^^
# [18:48] <Hoppertje> i think i am confusing you, because you do not know what kind of domain i am renting
# [18:48] <jarek> you don't need XAMPP for Node.js and/or Socket.io
# [18:49] <Hoppertje> a persistent connection means that the server runs a script continiously and sends info back to the client when needed
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# [18:50] <Hoppertje> so, i think i need to rent a VPS then
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# [18:51] <Hoppertje> jarek: sorry for being incompetent :P
# [18:51] <Pomax> if a host does not offer "node.js" hosting as special thing, you're going to have to buy a dedicated box so you can run custom scripts without the host scheduler killing them.
# [18:52] <Hoppertje> ^^ yah, thats what i thought
# [18:52] <Pomax> (where buy is more 'get')
# [18:52] <Pomax> not a lot of node.js hosters out there yet
# [18:52] <Hoppertje> Pomax: so what exactly is HTML5 websocket then?
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# [18:52] <Hoppertje> upgraded version for ajax ?
# [18:53] <Hoppertje> or some kind of connection that can be kept open for http requests?
# [18:53] <Pomax> websocket is essentially "IO over the web, for javascript, by specification"
# [18:53] <Pomax> that's a javascript-level persistent socket connection.
# [18:53] <Pomax> so it's not really like ajax at all.
# [18:53] <Hoppertje> because AJAX keeps making a new connection then?
# [18:54] <Pomax> it doesn't even make its own. it asks the browser to perform a POST or GET
# [18:54] <Pomax> which is RESTful
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# [18:54] <Pomax> (POST doesn't even require a reply)
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# [18:54] <Hoppertje> so, if i do not mind server polling, is html5 websocket more reliable then ajax?
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# [18:55] <jarek> Hoppertje: not at the moment
# [18:55] <Hoppertje> hmm
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# [18:56] <jarek> Hoppertje: WebSockets specification is not stable yet, it might change next month, some browsers may upgrade to new versions, other might not
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# [18:56] <Hoppertje> Pomax: so i simply ask my host if they are willing to implement use for node.js ?
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# [18:57] <Hoppertje> jarek: well with the whole HTML5 coming i expect its gonna become standard
# [18:57] <Pomax> you ask, they'll probably say "sorry, we're not doing that at this point in time going forward to better help our customers"
# [18:57] <Pomax> and then they go "but upgrade to private hosting <3"
# [18:57] <Pomax> =)
# [18:57] <Hoppertje> heh
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# [18:57] <Pomax> still, asking never hurts
# [18:57] <Hoppertje> Pomax: but 'what' do i ask for ?
# [18:58] <Hoppertje> support for node.js ?
# [18:58] <Pomax> whether they offer node.js service
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# [18:58] <Hoppertje> been trying to get this answer for over 45 minutes :P
# [18:58] <Pomax> because it's basically an alternative to apache, so if they run virtual machines that do node.js instead of apache, done.
# [18:58] <Pomax> if they don't, boo.
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# [18:58] <Hoppertje> ok, well as you said, doesnt hurt to ask :P
# [18:59] <jarek> Pomax: you should be able to install Node.js next to Apache on VPS
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# [18:59] <Pomax> you should be able to, but it doesn't make a tremendous amount of sense if you're going to use node.js
# [18:59] <Pomax> so it's easier to set up VMs that are either/or and just go "pay us money, you get one of these two"
# [19:00] <Pomax> then again, node.js as far as hosts are concerned is apparently still a toy
# [19:00] <Hoppertje> 10 euro's a month for a VPS
# [19:00] <Hoppertje> without directadmin
# [19:01] <Pomax> not too bad, honestly.
# [19:01] <Pomax> anyway, biab. dim sum time.
# [19:01] <Hoppertje> hah enjoy :)
# [19:02] <Hoppertje> jarek: so do i get it right, you are using XAMPP ?
# [19:02] <Hoppertje> you said you were using node.js locally
# [19:03] <jarek> Hoppertje: I'm using Node.js with this module: https://github.com/Worlize/WebSocket-Node
# [19:03] <jarek> Hoppertje: works perfectly fine for my purposes
# [19:04] <Hoppertje> but you are running a local server then?
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# [19:18] <BrianBlakely> Hi #html5
# [19:21] <Jackneill> can you help me? i have that code: <meta charset="ISO-8859-2" /> but i get '?'-s in every special hungarian chars
# [19:21] <Jackneill> also in utf-8
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# [19:24] <moo-_-> Jackneill: set character encoding in HTTP headers
# [19:24] <moo-_-> also you might lack font
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# [19:56] <grantg> hey paul_irish
# [19:56] <grantg> IE10 finally does binary handling on xmlhttprequest right now???
# [19:56] <paul_irish> hihi
# [19:56] <paul_irish> thats what it seems like
# [19:56] <grantg> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/HTML5/TypedArrays/
# [19:56] <grantg> :O
# [19:57] <grantg> Heh, they implemented typed arrays before WebGL?
# [19:57] <grantg> usually they come together
# [19:58] <paul_irish> i hear there will not be webgl in ie10
# [19:58] <paul_irish> as a fact.
# [19:58] <paul_irish> maybe ie11
# [19:58] <grantg> paul_irish: I remember binary xmlhttprequest was not possible in IE9 without the use of VB-Script or base64'ing
# [19:58] <grantg> :(
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# [19:59] <moo-_-> just install Google Chrome Frame for webGL >_<
# [19:59] <paul_irish> ^^
# [19:59] <grantg> My god, it's full of typed arrays
# [19:59] * grantg wonders how the emulator stuff runs in it
# [20:00] <grantg> paul_irish: Now that work is restarting on a GBA emulator in JS: https://github.com/grantgalitz/IodineGBA/blob/master/js/ARM7TDMI.js
# [20:01] <grantg> Rewriting the opcode decoding process into a dynamically generated funcs in array
# [20:01] <grantg> \o/
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# [20:02] <grantg> I decided to redo that stuff for perf, despite its ugliness. ;_;
# [20:02] <grantg> paul_irish: How is the performance in IE 10 P4?
# [20:02] <franksalim> grantg: IE10 has binary messages for WebSocket, too
# [20:03] <grantg> Any general perf improvements?
# [20:03] <moo-_-> grantg: I am looking forward for the day when you dynamically translate GBA binary code to Javascript which is then jit'ed by the browser
# [20:03] <moo-_-> unless you are doing it already, that's it :)
# [20:03] <grantg> moo-_-: Code was scrapped like 2x over
# [20:04] <grantg> And the interpreter is being done with priority. :/
# [20:04] <grantg> But yeah
# [20:04] <grantg> still on the table
# [20:04] <grantg> and actually getting back to it
# [20:04] <moo-_-> ha :)
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# [20:04] <JonathanNeal> does IE have issues with previousSibling on textnodes?
# [20:04] <grantg> The instruction overlaps for decoding ARMv4 was too slow originally
# [20:05] <grantg> Like data processing and SWP overlapping
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# [20:05] <grantg> at some opcode addresses, up to four instructions were supposed to be "valid" at that value
# [20:05] <grantg> of course, only one being really valid
# [20:06] <grantg> also, the arm tech center site sucks
# [20:06] <grantg> has invalid assembly code info
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# [20:06] <grantg> they mapped data processing wrong with a typo. xD
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# [20:07] <grantg> The multiplication isn't perfect
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# [20:07] <grantg> Because JS doesn't let me do 64-bit integers
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# [20:07] <grantg> 64-bit doubles reduces the accuracy somewhat
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# [20:08] <grantg> so large numbers might have a few lower digits zero'd
# [20:08] <grantg> not too bad
# [20:08] <grantg> "close enough"
# [20:08] <moo-_-> grantg: does it use 64-bit as counters :D
# [20:08] <grantg> 64-bit multiplication
# [20:08] <moo-_-> ah
# [20:08] <grantg> MULL/MLAL instrs
# [20:09] <grantg> Stores 32x32 result into two 32-bit ARM registers
# [20:09] <grantg> etc.
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# [20:09] <JonathanNeal> A div with the innerHTML "<p> foo</p>" reports the whitespace (from innerHTML), but the textnode is missing.
# [20:09] <grantg> MLA just adds an accumulator offset to the result
# [20:09] <grantg> versus vanilla MUL
# [20:09] <franksalim> grantg: would it be too slow to use BigIntegers intstead of Numbers?
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# [20:10] <grantg> franksalim: YES
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# [20:10] <franksalim> inner loop in your emulator, i guess
# [20:10] <franksalim> that's too bad
# [20:10] <grantg> numerical performance was a problem even on the GBC emulator
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# [20:10] <grantg> and that didn't do multiplication
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# [20:11] <grantg> At least ARMv4 doesn't have division opcodes
# [20:11] <grantg> xD
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# [20:11] <grantg> no FPU, but an ALU with multiplication
# [20:11] <grantg> w/ Booth's multiplication algo in hardware
# [20:12] <grantg> it's funny, because this rewrite will look kinda like the ARM core in VBA
# [20:13] <grantg> they made a giant decode table as well
# [20:13] <grantg> bits 20-27 and bits 4-7 being used
# [20:13] <grantg> for a 12-bit decode table
# [20:14] <franksalim> do you know if WebCL or RiverTrail will have 64bit integer math? it looks like they wont, at first glance
# [20:14] <grantg> since most instructions are just offsets and register #'s
# [20:14] <grantg> so only some of the bits need to be matched
# [20:14] <grantg> :(
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# [20:18] <grantg> hmm
# [20:18] <grantg> I think JS just needs actual static types added
# [20:20] <xcoderzach> grantg: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
# [20:20] <grantg> xcoderzach: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
# [20:20] <xcoderzach> :-(
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# [20:20] <franksalim> grantg: i don't think it needs static types. it could be useful to have better numerical types, though
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# [20:20] <grantg> Of course, "var" should still be kept
# [20:20] <franksalim> see python
# [20:20] <grantg> franksalim: perf problems though
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# [20:21] <grantg> with realtime resolving of type info on dynamic types
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# [20:22] <grantg> franksalim: We need better numerical support for sure
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# [20:22] <grantg> "Number" is not enough
# [20:22] <grantg> we need direct int/uint etc. stuff
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# [20:23] <grantg> so we don't need to wrap things with bitwise operators in js
# [20:23] <franksalim> grantg: apparently that was one of the great disagreements in the EcmaScript committee
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# [20:23] <grantg> At least add new IntBlahBlah()
# [20:23] <grantg> like typed arrays
# [20:23] <grantg> but in single value format
# [20:24] <grantg> non-array
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# [20:24] <grantg> I mean, we already have typed arrays
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# [20:24] <grantg> so why not make their counterparts in non-array format
# [20:25] <grantg> It'll be like boxed Integers in Java
# [20:25] <Jon47> i worry that making javascript the language it needs to be on the server is going to hurt javascript on the client side..
# [20:26] <grantg> This is required for performance on the client side I'm afraid
# [20:26] <franksalim> http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=harmony:binary_data_discussion
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# [20:26] <grantg> and to work against code bloat from numerical wrappers
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# [20:27] <franksalim> grantg: have you looked at the binary data proposals for ecmascript?
# [20:27] <grantg> franksalim: \o/
# [20:27] <grantg> not really
# [20:27] <grantg> I should read their stuff
# [20:28] <grantg> Boxed int/uint should have been in the original js spec
# [20:28] <grantg> because it feels stupid w/o them
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# [20:28] <moo-_-> grantg: what's this int thing?
# [20:28] <moo-_-> come one
# [20:28] <moo-_-> it's 2010!
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# [20:28] <moo-_-> cloouuds!
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# [20:29] <moo-_-> don't live in te past!
# [20:29] <grantg> moo-_-: Being able to perform 64-bit math in js
# [20:29] <moo-_-> just trolling :)
# [20:29] <moo-_-> I have had the same problem myself
# [20:29] <grantg> which js still can only do in doubles
# [20:29] <grantg> in the damn fpu
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# [20:30] <grantg> and the mantissa of doubles is 50 something odd bits
# [20:30] <grantg> not 64-bit
# [20:30] <grantg> hence the rounding when getting close to 64-bit numbers
# [20:31] <Jon47> i guess it's just never come up for me.. what sorts of things do you use these large ints for?
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# [20:31] <grantg> CPU emulation.
# [20:31] <Jon47> oh
# [20:32] <grantg> Might also be necessary on explicit ops in math heavy web apps
# [20:32] <moo-_-> there are other uses cases
# [20:32] <grantg> like calculating physics to a specific accuracy
# [20:32] <moo-_-> like with image manipulation
# [20:32] <grantg> yeah
# [20:32] <grantg> data processing
# [20:32] <grantg> etc.
# [20:32] <moo-_-> which is done lot with <canvas>
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# [20:32] <tsenart> audio data processing as well
# [20:33] <tsenart> on the WebAudio API or the Mozilla Audio Data API
# [20:33] <grantg> "Number" is float and thus slow, and the round offs get annoying on very large numbers
# [20:34] <grantg> when everything above the decimal is wanted
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# [20:34] <Jon47> i hope the syntax doesn't get really obtuse for the more common uses for numbers, i think much of the popularity of javascript is due to the fact that it's so easy to get ankle-deep in it
# [20:34] <grantg> Jon47: Hence the boxed integer concept
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# [20:34] <grantg> it won't replace "var"
# [20:34] <moo-_-> like
# [20:34] <grantg> It'll just add an object that does this stuff
# [20:34] <Jon47> nice, that sounds rad
# [20:34] <moo-_-> var i = int(0x12345677890123457890)
# [20:34] <grantg> like typed arrays
# [20:35] <grantg> typed arrays don't take away
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# [20:35] <grantg> moo-_-: Also gotta love js rounding off explicit numbers before they're used
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# [20:35] <moo-_-> I see Javascript becoming more Python-like day by day :9
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# [20:37] <grantg> also, where's my int128? :P
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# [20:43] <paul_irish> https://twitter.com/#!/zeldman/status/141957462742933505
# [20:43] <socialhapy> ★ Tweet from zeldman: Merch for your pleasure: http://t.co/Ct3ymodP ★ http://bit.ly/uB5iRa
# [20:43] <paul_irish> homeboy is literally profiting off of BBD and meanwhile completely not interested in promoting movethewebforward.org
# [20:44] <paul_irish> disgusting.
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# [20:47] <jarek> How can I copy getter from one object to another?
# [20:48] <jarek> when I use simple assignment then the value returned by getter is copied, not the getter function itself
# [20:48] <jarek> Here is example: http://jsfiddle.net/zj6tC/
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# [20:52] <Jon47> zeeeeldmannn! **shakes fist**
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# [20:55] <franksalim> I once thought Web Standards meant the standards that make up the Web. Then I realized it meant just the W3C specs. Now I know that it means buttons with Mr. Zeldman's face on them.
# [20:56] <franksalim> I've learned a lot this week.
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# [21:08] <itsjustjake> whats going on people?
# [21:09] <paul_irish> https://twitter.com/#!/espadrine/status/141915162616672256
# [21:09] <socialhapy> ★ Tweet from espadrine: @paul_irish I'm maintaining an effort to show a very fast sum-up of the new stuff added in latest versions of specs. http://t.co/cTGko65a ★ http://bit.ly/uUHJSK
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# [21:10] <paul_irish> franksalim: haahaha :)
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# [21:15] <tsenart> ohai paul_irish: https://github.com/h5bp/movethewebforward/pull/34
# [21:15] <socialhapy> ★ Pull request on movethewebforward by tsenart (26m, 7s ago): Adds AreWePlayingYet to the "Contribute to Test Suites" list
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# [21:16] <paul_irish> good one
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# [21:16] <tsenart> :)
# [21:16] <paul_irish> merged
# [21:17] <tsenart> cool
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# [21:22] <moo-_-> now
# [21:22] <moo-_-> why in "!%)&=" setting audio.currentTime does not work if audio src is another domain
# [21:22] <moo-_-> but works if it's the same
# [21:22] <moo-_-> on chrome
# [21:22] <moo-_-> if this is somekind of origin security issue then it's pretty messed up one
# [21:23] <tsenart> moo-_-: what specific test are you referring to?
# [21:23] <tsenart> link?
# [21:23] <moo-_-> tsenart: I need to build up a test case
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# [21:23] <moo-_-> with files on the local server
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# [21:26] <moo-_-> tsenart: here is the related log output
# [21:26] <moo-_-> http://pastie.org/2945879
# [21:26] <moo-_-> it works if file is from the same origin
# [21:27] <tsenart> moo-_-: I'm not sure I understand your pastie
# [21:27] <moo-_-> ok
# [21:27] <moo-_-> in one line it sets in currentTime
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# [21:27] <moo-_-> on the second line it reads it
# [21:27] <moo-_-> and value is not definitely changed
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# [21:27] <moo-_-> but it is changed properly
# [21:27] <moo-_-> if I run the same bit
# [21:28] <moo-_-> where the file is not loaded from third party domain
# [21:28] <tsenart> moo-_-: this is what I have: http://cl.ly/401h0g0C3Z021C0q0P2g
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# [21:29] <moo-_-> tsenart: http://pastie.org/2945894
# [21:30] <moo-_-> currentTime does not update
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# [21:30] <tsenart> moo-_-: hmmm lemme check
# [21:31] <moo-_-> tsenart: and this happens only with CORS audio
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# [21:31] <moo-_-> not with something loaded from the same domain
# [21:31] <moo-_-> I did not yet check it it's specific to vorbis
# [21:31] <moo-_-> chrome 15
# [21:31] <paul_irish> https://github.com/espadrine/New-In-A-Spec innnnteresting
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# [21:32] <tsenart> moo-_-: Might be a guess but the remote server needs to support HTTP/1.1 Range requests
# [21:32] <tsenart> otherwise seeking doesn't work properly
# [21:32] <moo-_-> tsenart: it cannot even reset back to zero?
# [21:32] <moo-_-> pffft
# [21:33] <tsenart> moo-_-: not sure, can you give me the real link for me to test?
# [21:33] <moo-_-> first I need to get some audio files up on two different hosts :)
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# [21:33] <tsenart> ok I'll be around
# [21:33] <moo-_-> preferably something that I am not getting DMCA'd by fellow friends from US
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# [21:37] <moo-_-> tsenart: I am looking into Network debug tab info now and it looks like you maybe correct
# [21:38] <moo-_-> I'll just recreate the audio element to rewind it back
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# [21:46] <tsenart> moo-_-: you don't need to host your own files for this test
# [21:46] <tsenart> use AreWePlayingYet
# [21:47] <tsenart> with Range request support: http://areweplayingyet.herokuapp.com/sounds/short.ogg
# [21:47] <moo-_-> tsenart: the problematic file I have is coming from S3
# [21:47] <tsenart> without: http://areweplayingyet.com/sounds/short.ogg
# [21:47] <moo-_-> it should support ranged requests
# [21:47] <moo-_-> but there must be a catch somewhere
# [21:47] <moo-_-> tsenart: ok
# [21:47] <moo-_-> doing simple code now
# [21:47] <moo-_-> jsfiddling
# [21:48] <tsenart> moo-_-: just saying, try with these both and tell me the diffrenece
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# [22:00] <moo-_-> tsenart: this doesn't play at all http://areweplayingyet.com/sounds/short.ogg
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# [22:02] <moo-_-> but here is the code: http://jsfiddle.net/efDqk/
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# [22:04] <tsenart> moo-_-: in what browser are you?
# [22:04] <moo-_-> chrome 15
# [22:04] <moo-_-> also tested FF9
# [22:04] <moo-_-> it doesn't play if I go there direcly either
# [22:05] <Serrata> "are we playing yet" just took chrome to a whole new level of cpu usage
# [22:06] <tsenart> moo-_-: which of the links?
# [22:06] <tsenart> ah
# [22:06] <tsenart> i see
# [22:06] <tsenart> yes that's the link without Range requests support
# [22:06] <tsenart> makes sense
# [22:09] <tsenart> moo-_-: apparently it has to do with formats
# [22:10] <tsenart> if you try no no-range with .mp3 instead of .ogg it works
# [22:10] <tsenart> weird
# [22:10] <tsenart> Serrata: make sense
# [22:10] <tsenart> it's a test suite
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# [22:12] <moo-_-> so ogg to blame
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# [22:12] <JonathanNeal> sorry necolas, i meant to im you here.
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# [22:14] <JonathanNeal> yea those results are crazy and all over the place, aren't they.
# [22:14] <Serrata> tsenart: yeah but it was after the test suite ran lol
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# [22:15] <tsenart> Serrata: yeah we're using flash
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# [22:15] <tsenart> (irony)
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# [22:16] <Serrata> flash is a seperate process in chrome iirc but it is what it is
# [22:19] <tsenart> Serrata: when I said we I meant AreWePlayingYet
# [22:19] <tsenart> meh never mind
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# [22:23] <Serrata> I'm pretty dumb so don't mind me
# [22:23] <tsenart> Serrata: that's also not what I meant
# [22:24] <Serrata> lol
# [22:24] <tsenart> I said we because I am one of the developers of AreWePlayingYet
# [22:24] <tsenart> :)
# [22:24] <JonathanNeal> necolas: updated https://gist.github.com/1410787 with opera mini results for iphone/ipad
# [22:24] <JonathanNeal> gee golly they are all nuts
# [22:24] <Serrata> nice work btw
# [22:24] <tsenart> thanks
# [22:25] <JonathanNeal> meta-width-initial-maximum brings everything somewhat inline.
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# [22:26] <necolas> JonathanNeal: unfortunately that also prevents user zooming
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# [22:27] <JonathanNeal> necolas: i know, i know, it's so sad.
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# [22:28] <necolas> JonathanNeal: Galaxy 10.1 Android 3.2 looks crazy for meta-width-initial o.0
# [22:29] <JonathanNeal> maybe those numbers are wrong, stefsul will be back later to do more testing and she has the android devices
# [22:29] <JonathanNeal> maybe they are flipped
# [22:30] <necolas> hopefully!
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# [22:31] <JonathanNeal> the truth is, everybody is wack until width-initial are added.
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# [22:33] <JonathanNeal> but safari is crazy with that too, for width-initial if you load a page in landscape it is 480x208, flip to portrait it is 320x356, flip back to landscape it is 320x139.
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# [22:39] <daleharvey> anyone got recommendations for input type='color" shims?
# [22:40] <BrianBlakely> Polling the channel for Galaxy Nexus owners /cc xonecas
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# [22:50] <miketaylr> BrianBlakely: i have a nexus s
# [22:50] <BrianBlakely> miketaylr: Thanks man. I'm actually trying to find the DPI density on that device, what with its media-query-busting native resolution
# [22:51] <miketaylr> JonathanNeal: for opera min, you have to refresh a page post-orientation change if you want it to reflow
# [22:51] <miketaylr> BrianBlakely: hmm how do i figure that out?
# [22:53] <JonathanNeal> miketaylr: indeed
# [22:53] <miketaylr> too bad everyone has to reverse engineer this meta crap
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# [22:56] <BrianBlakely> miketaylr: screen.width, screen.height
# [22:57] <BrianBlakely> It works on iPhone 4, where it responds with 320 and 480, respectively
# [22:57] <BrianBlakely> And that is how iPhone 4 and 4S respond to media queries, from those resolutions, despite those not being the native dimensions
# [22:57] <miketaylr> from the "Browser"?
# [22:57] <franksalim> "metacrap" is the title of a great essay about metadata
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# [22:58] <BrianBlakely> miketaylr: Well, any JS execution context. I find that it responds the same in iOS whether in Safari or a WebUIView
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# [23:01] <BrianBlakely> Ah, now I am nostalgic for the time when Apple cared about the web, before they were competing with it
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# [23:04] <BrianBlakely> miketaylr: Now I'm curious. Does the Nexus S do any pixel-doubling voodoo?
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# [23:05] <miketaylr> 480h 762w in Opera Mobile, the android Browser says 0w 0h
# [23:05] <miketaylr> BrianBlakely: ^^
# [23:06] <miketaylr> (sorry got a phone call in the middle)
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# [23:44] <ArvinJA> Hey, how can I add something like "classes" to my rects on my canvas?
# [23:45] <ArvinJA> Say I want a certain type of rects to be green
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# [23:46] <BrianBlakely> ArvinJA: perhaps create a function for it? drawRect('green')
# [23:46] <ArvinJA> BrianBlakely, cool, thanks
# [23:47] <BrianBlakely> You could also get more heady with Object getter/setters and .prototype. and such, but my previous response is the simple one
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# [23:48] <BrianBlakely> Later #html5!
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# Session Close: Thu Dec 01 00:00:00 2011

The end :)