/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-12-02 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Dec 02 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
# [00:00] <Jon47> do you really do all that?
# [00:00] <jarek> Jon47: you will be doing it in 2-3 years, you will see :P
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# [00:01] <jarek> testing against different screens will be more important that testing against different browsers
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# [00:01] <jarek> s/screens/configurations
# [00:01] <Jon47> just my opinion but I think mobile simulators need to get better, this stuff shouldn't be in desktop browser tools
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# [00:02] <jarek> Jon47: WebKit on iPhone has almost the same features as Chrome or Safari, why do we need to emulate the whole device?
# [00:02] <jarek> Jon47: why can't we emulate just the media queries handling?
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# [00:03] <JonathanNeal> Wow, that's a lot of tests @ https://gist.github.com/1410787
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# [00:09] <Jon47> jarek I am sympathetic to your point but i still think it's better to emulate than imitate
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# [00:12] <dwarder> so guys, do any of you are using appcelerator?
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# [01:13] <boblet> HEY PPLZ, what was your most “mind = blown” website for 2011 for use of HTML5?
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# [01:20] <Pomax> isometric CSS
# [01:20] <Pomax> http://www.midwinter-dg.com/blog_demos/css-isometric-text/
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# [01:27] <franksalim> Up and Down the Ladder of Abstraction. Mind blowing website of the year, and it uses HTML5
# [01:27] <franksalim> http://worrydream.com/LadderOfAbstraction/
# [01:28] <Narf-Zoid> How come my <nav> and <header> tags aren't working in Internet Explorer *except* for the index page?
# [01:28] <Narf-Zoid> it's a css issue really... IE is not registering the css for those elements on any pages BUT the index page
# [01:29] <Narf-Zoid> I've already checked all the markup... it's all the same
# [01:29] <Narf-Zoid> any ideas?
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# [01:32] <paul_irish> Narf-Zoid: use modernizr or html5shiv
# [01:32] <Pomax> forgot the html5 shim on everything but the index page?
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# [01:33] <Narf-Zoid> checked that already
# [01:33] <Narf-Zoid> I'm using h5bp
# [01:33] <Pomax> or does the index page use <!doctype html> but the rest don't, making IE9 go into fully broken compatibility mode?
# [01:33] <Pomax> (hit F12 to see which mode it's actually in)
# [01:33] <paul_irish> Narf-Zoid: YO SHIT IS CRAZYBROKE
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# [01:33] <paul_irish> clearly.
# [01:34] <Narf-Zoid> i'm using modernizr
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# [01:35] <Narf-Zoid> lol, lemme check the mode
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# [01:36] <Narf-Zoid> paul_irish: I'm totally learning h5bp with this project
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# [01:37] <Narf-Zoid> paul_irish: lol, it is totally broke! :)
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# [01:38] <Narf-Zoid> okay, I'll just let you see it yourself... http://www.wbcobb.net/t/thefactorystudiosinc/
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# [01:38] <franksalim> paul_irish: have you checked out the multiple quirks modes in IE10 pp4?
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# [01:39] <Narf-Zoid> Pomax: the doctype is properly declared
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# [01:40] <Pomax> Narf-Zoid, which IE are you checking it with
# [01:40] <franksalim> Narf-Zoid: what mode does IE say it is in?
# [01:40] <Pomax> because I don't see any differences between the various pages with IE9 on win7...
# [01:40] <Narf-Zoid> I'm checking it with IE8
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# [01:41] <Narf-Zoid> I'm checking it in Win XP, IE8
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# [01:42] <Pomax> your site does some weird things, nav wise. opening a link as a new tab does some magical nondeterministic things compared to just clicking it.
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# [01:43] <Narf-Zoid> Pomax: what kind of weird things?
# [01:43] <Pomax> nm, forgot to open multiple debuggers for the tabs
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# [01:45] <Narf-Zoid> franksalim: IE appears to be in normal mode. Not compatibility mode.
# [01:45] <franksalim> standards mode?
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# [01:47] <Narf-Zoid> yeah
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# [01:49] <Narf-Zoid> But you guys can see it too right?
# [01:49] <Narf-Zoid> Except in Windows 7 you say, it works?
# [01:49] <Narf-Zoid> I'm on a linux box with vm Windows XP
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# [01:50] <Pomax> in IE9 it works fine, even in IE8 mode for the main page. in IE8 mode for the other pages, it breaks
# [01:50] <Narf-Zoid> yeah, that's what's confusing me
# [01:50] <Narf-Zoid> why it works on the index page and breaks on the rest
# [01:50] <Pomax> the only difference I can spot atm is the lack of a stylesheet for media="print", which hardly qualifies as root cause
# [01:50] <Pomax> the html class is quite different, though
# [01:51] <Narf-Zoid> could it have something to do with htaccess, because the other files are in sub-folders?
# [01:51] <Pomax> yes
# [01:52] <Pomax> man it'd be so lovely if IE reported this
# [01:52] <Pomax> chrome: Failed to load resource: the server responded with a status of 404 (Not Found)
# [01:52] <Pomax> three times.
# [01:52] <Pomax> modernizr is one of them =P
# [01:52] <Narf-Zoid> oh, that's probably cuz the trailing slash at the end is missing?
# [01:53] <Narf-Zoid> in another issue, the h5bp htaccess file seems to cause a trailing slash issue
# [01:53] <boblet> Pomax, franksalim thanks for the links yo :)
# [01:53] <Narf-Zoid> but when i remove the h5bp htaccess file then my server adds / at the end of all folder url's
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# [01:53] <Pomax> when using rewrite or alias, all resources should be absolute links
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# [01:54] <Narf-Zoid> Anyways, I'll look into modernizr
# [01:54] <Pomax> you can no longer rely on relative paths unless you're scary good, or plain lucky
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# [01:54] <Narf-Zoid> so I should use absolute paths to link the js script?
# [01:55] <Narf-Zoid> the same way I'm linking to the css?
# [01:55] <Pomax> start your resource links with /
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# [01:55] <Narf-Zoid> OMG I just figured it out!
# [01:55] <Narf-Zoid> thank you Pomax!
# [01:55] <Narf-Zoid> Obviously the resource links aren't correct
# [01:56] <Narf-Zoid> :)
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# [01:56] <Narf-Zoid> Geez, I can't believe that's what it was
# [01:57] <Pomax> you have no idea how many times mod_rewrite + relative links mess people up.
# [01:58] <Narf-Zoid> dude, I believe it. I actually have been teaching myself more htaccess tricks and it's been interesting to say the least
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# [01:59] <Narf-Zoid> But I still don't fully understand why it worked in other browsers but not IE
# [02:00] <Pomax> it didn't
# [02:00] <Pomax> they just didn't panic in the same way
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# [02:01] <Narf-Zoid> Is the best-practice to just use full URL's in the resource links then? Or is it best us use mod_rewrite link stuff
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# [02:02] <Narf-Zoid> I'm just going to use full URL's for now
# [02:02] <Pomax> when you're using mod_rewrite, it's best to link relative to the base
# [02:02] <Pomax> or absolute, but that's usually a bit over the top
# [02:02] <Pomax> /js/happyfuntimes.js is as good as http://mydomain.com/js/happyfuntimes.js
# [02:02] <Narf-Zoid> Cool
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# [02:03] <Pomax> as long as you don't accidentally slap a . in front of it
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# [02:03] <Narf-Zoid> lol right
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# [02:03] <Narf-Zoid> can you actually execute script from html on a server like that?
# [02:04] <Narf-Zoid> (did I just make it obvious i'm a noob?)
# [02:04] <Pomax> a little
# [02:04] <Pomax> you don't execute scripts on the server, the client downloads them, then runs them.
# [02:04] <Pomax> that is to say, you don't execute <script>-included elements at the server, you download blahblahblah
# [02:05] <Narf-Zoid> yeah, I kinda typed too fast. Got my head stuck in the terminal
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# [02:16] <paul_irish> protip: look for 404s. :p
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# [02:19] <eggsby> paul_irish: I watched your talk on dev tools from google io last night, thanks for taking the time to explain that stuff for us :)
# [02:20] <paul_irish> \o/
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# [02:20] <eggsby> there's some stuff that just doesn't really click until you see someone else do it :p
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# [02:57] <superevr> haha paul_irish, i'm watching your html5 foundation talk. hilarious
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# [02:58] <paul_irish> :)
# [02:58] <superevr> "its 'alt' attributes, like it really matters" classic
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# [04:45] <qawsedrf> sup? feedbacks please - http://css-creations.com :)
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# [04:54] <Pomax> paul_irish, don't suppose you know who to prod for https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25207?
# [04:54] <paul_irish> was just thinking about that one today
# [04:54] <Pomax> heh
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# [05:02] <paul_irish> Pomax: pinged some folks about it
# [05:02] <paul_irish> trying to find a reviewer
# [05:03] <Pomax> sweet, thanks!
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# [05:19] <paul_irish> ryanseddon: can we pull in addy's detects?
# [05:19] <paul_irish> lets do
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# [05:34] <Pomax> is there a way to tell the canvas to use evenodd vs nonzero as "in-path-ness" algorithm?
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# [05:40] <b1lly> Pomax: don't understand the q
# [05:40] <Pomax> no worries, the answer is "no". Canvas2d uses the nonzero winding number algorithm to determine whether a point lies inside or outside a set of intersecting paths.
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# [05:41] <Pomax> given that SVG loves using the even/odd winding number rule, going from SVG to canvas path is going to be a bit tricky =P
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# [06:30] <ryanseddon> paul_irish: yeah do it
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# [12:02] <necolas> JonathanNeal: ping
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# [13:09] <onla> anyone around to help a nab ? trying to just have a simple video player on a html page. Copying the source code from this, pasteing it to my own, replacing the video filename and trying in localhost. I'm just getting a black background http://arrak.kapsi.fi/swtor/
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# [13:27] <onla> okay. it is the video source. I can get it to work with that same video file. However my owndifferent .mp4 file won't play
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# [15:12] <jarek> is it safe to have several hundreds of click event listeners?
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# [15:13] <JakeA> Safe, yes. Optimal, no
# [15:13] <jarek> am I risking that my app will be slow on some browsers?
# [15:13] <JakeA> Eg, if you're adding a listener onto every 'li' in a list, add a single listener to the 'ol' instead
# [15:13] <dr0id> event delegation!
# [15:14] <jarek> I could have just one event listener and check event.target value, but this would not be very elegant in my situation
# [15:15] <jarek> because the methods responsible for handling click event are private to clicked element
# [15:16] <JakeA> How is the method private to an element?
# [15:17] <jarek> JakeA: uhm... it's hard for me to explain this
# [15:18] <jarek> JakeA: the elements are accessed via additional wrapper
# [15:19] <JakeA> how many click listeners are we talking?
# [15:20] <jarek> JakeA: 500 - 1000
# [15:21] <jarek> damn, I think I will have to refactor my code to allow event delegation
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# [15:25] <JakeA> Yeah, 500 − 1000 sounds like too many
# [15:25] <dr0id> awesome
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# [15:42] <onla> trying to use video tags. I encoded my cell phones mp4 video to use AVC video format and AAC audio format, but still it won't show up in the video tags. I have another video using those formats and it works just fine
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# [15:50] <onla> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30478113/jack/html.html this here has a video a.avi with AVC and AAC encodings. rightclick it, you can download and check the media info. If you can see what is wrong with it
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# [16:09] <irae_> onla: try using http://handbrake.fr/ - I encoded many h264 videos that played very well on browsers with <video> tag
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# [16:15] <SrPx> hey guys im about to starting the project of a 3d game. is html5 on its current development trustable for it to be playable in many pcs, or it'll probably have performance issues so its better to stick to C++?
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# [16:15] <irae_> onla: on the presets sidebar you will find a "Apple > Universal" preset. This one should work across all browsers supporting h264 videos, in their forums you can find about ogg and webM too.
# [16:16] <Jon47> SrPx - it's a bit young as a technology but there have been some very promising prototypes
# [16:16] <Jon47> this is one of my favorites: http://mrdoob.com/projects/voxels/
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# [16:16] <SrPx> i have seen this site =)
# [16:16] <Jon47> its pretty old actually ;)
# [16:17] <Jon47> but i personally haven't seen much that's actually more fun to use
# [16:17] <irae_> Jon47: http://egraether.com/soft.html this is more fun
# [16:18] <onla> ok ty
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# [16:18] <Jon47> haha
# [16:18] <Jon47> they jiggle
# [16:18] <SrPx> my doubts are... what is the html5 general compatibility? it works for IE? and mobile phones? i have seen many cool 3d stuff with html5 but they ran slow on my pc. can I attribute this to their code or its a language issue?
# [16:18] <onla> got it to work with avidemux now too though by changing the container to mp4
# [16:18] <Jon47> you're right that is fun
# [16:20] <Jon47> SrPx I don't think any web app is ever going to be *faster* than something written in C
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# [16:21] <Jon47> but the barrier for entry is much lower - all you need is a web browser, no need to install anything or run an executable
# [16:21] <SrPx> Jon47: i dont need it to be faster, but i have to trust itll run smootly all around
# [16:21] <SrPx> Jon47: yes i know =)
# [16:21] <SrPx> Jon47: but the game has to be playable
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# [16:22] <Jon47> most of the games I've seen people actually playing don't look much more sophisticated than something you'd seen in MS-DOS or a super nintendo
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# [16:27] <SrPx> what
# [16:27] <SrPx> oh hm
# [16:27] <SrPx> so best not bet on it
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# [16:28] <Jon47> i really have no practical experience developing on it, i wish i could help more
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# [16:36] <onla> irae_: it is N95 default format in mp4 container, that I inserted to that handbrake, chose apple>universal and encoded it. It still doesn't work on firefox or opera http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30478113/jack/html.html
# [16:36] <onla> nokia n95 cell phone I mean
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# [16:44] <timmywil> will ie7 allow communication with an iframe on a different subdomain? I've set document.domain.
# [16:44] <onla> irae_: good programs to encode to t/l sure
# [16:44] <onla> webM
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# [16:47] <Velmont> SrPx: There are different conference talks about that on youtube.
# [16:48] <SrPx> really? and what they say?
# [16:48] <Velmont> SrPx: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlGG5kLqMLE A bit out there's webGL talk stuff. -- And in the right menu there's many more links to other talks.
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# [16:49] <Velmont> SrPx: I looked at that emberwind one, and the fieldrunners html5, -- and I guess there's many more nice ones also. Browse around :-)
# [16:50] <SrPx> this is great
# [16:50] <SrPx> !
# [16:50] <SrPx> very great
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# [16:54] <JonathanNeal> necolas: ping back
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# [16:55] <necolas> JonathanNeal: don't worry, found my answer
# [16:56] <JonathanNeal> what were you looking for? anything i'd be interested in learning?
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# [16:59] <JonathanNeal> also, necolas, what do you think of the remaining css entries within http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5shim/html5shim.js ? Am I missing any or including too many?
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# [17:02] <necolas> JonathanNeal: i'd drop abbr[title] because this has a specificity of 0,0,1,1 and normally you'd expect abbr {border:0} to kill ALL UA default abbr borders
# [17:02] <JonathanNeal> got it.
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# [17:03] <necolas> JonathanNeal: what is the CSS shim stuff doing?
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# [17:04] <JonathanNeal> since ie does not support javascript-created elements, we turn them into namespaced elements.
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# [17:08] <necolas> JonathanNeal: this bit // get style sheet list css text ?
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# [17:08] <JonathanNeal> necolas: it replaces html5 elements with namespaced elements.
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# [17:09] <necolas> oh i see, so it is XHRing the stylesheets?
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# [17:14] <JonathanNeal> necolas: no because ie lets you read stylesheets regardless of domain
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# [17:17] <necolas> JonathanNeal: interesting
# [17:17] <JonathanNeal> yes we take advantage of this
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# [17:18] <necolas> JonathanNeal: i wonder if an ie-only version of respond.js could use that to avoid re-requesting css files
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# [17:25] <JonathanNeal> necolas: that probably wouldn't be a good idea because IE doesn't return the raw data.
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# [17:26] <bf4648> Got a question
# [17:29] <necolas> JonathanNeal: so you're still re-requesting the CSS then? (sorry, my ability to decode the JS is limited)
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# [17:29] <JonathanNeal> necolas: no, it returns the css as it interpretted it
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# [17:30] <JonathanNeal> so you couldn't grab any css that ie didn't already understand.
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# [17:31] <necolas> ah, ok
# [17:31] <necolas> got it
# [17:31] <imacinto> is the redundancy of <nav role="navigation"> a bad thing?
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# [17:34] <martndemus> its not a bad thing per se
# [17:34] <martndemus> more like pointless
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# [17:38] <imacinto> maybe the role="navigation" would be more appropriate on <nav>'s child <ul>?
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# [17:41] <bf4648> I got an HTML5 video that plays onload but I'd like it to stop as a certain offset...I'm using javascript to do that but for some reason it isn't working...any ideas why not?
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# [17:43] <bf4648> anyone?
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# [17:55] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: i'm thinking of setting up a github repo for html5shim, what do you think?
# [17:55] <Pomax> bf4648, use popcorn?
# [17:55] <Pomax> http://popcornjs.org/popcorn-101
# [17:58] <bf4648> Pomax..I think you just solved my problem
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# [18:00] <bf4648> I don't want to be depended on pop corn but that gave me an idea on how to do this..
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# [18:06] <Pomax> excellent
# [18:07] <Pomax> now for some coffee. and I wonder who stuck my bezier article on Hacker News... always nice to wake up to people enjoying content you created =)
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# [18:35] <BrianBlakely> Pomax: Is this the one? http://www.jasondavies.com/animated-bezier/
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# [18:40] <Pomax> no, I'm processingjs.nihongoresources.com/bezierinfo
# [18:41] <Pomax> don't worry, I also have animated de casteljau algorithms =)
# [18:41] <Pomax> (mine are interactive O_O)
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# [19:16] <jarek> is it possible to define non-enumerable property inside object lateral?
# [19:17] <jarek> is Object.defineProperty() the only way?
# [19:18] <Pomax> what are you trying to do?
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# [19:22] <jarek> Pomax: I would like to add non-enumerable property to my object, that's all
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# [19:23] <jarek> it's possible to define getters and setters inside object lateral, why there is no syntax for (non)enumerable and (non)configurable properties?
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# [19:23] <jarek> could it be shimed somehow?
# [19:24] <Pomax> yeah but you'd like to do that for some reason, so what are you trying to do that requires adding a property to Object?
# [19:24] <Pomax> because it's quite likely not the right way to do what you really want to do =)
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# [19:25] <jarek> Pomax: I'm building CSSOM-like data structure
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# [19:27] <Pomax> Okay, then why modify Object? Why not add the properties you need to your CSSOM object prototype?
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# [19:28] <jarek> Pomax: because this way the API will be easier to grasp
# [19:28] <jarek> Pomax: take a look at DOM, there are so many Array-like objects that have certain properties non-enumerable
# [19:28] <jarek> I need to create something simillar to element.classList
# [19:28] <jarek> from DOM
# [19:29] <jarek> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/element.classList
# [19:31] <jarek> Pomax: btw, I had added the properties to prototype, they would be still enumerable
# [19:31] <jarek> Pomax: I would still have to filter them in each loop
# [19:31] <jarek> s/I had/if I had
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# [19:31] <Pomax> yeah, so add them to the prototype
# [19:32] <Pomax> CSSOM.prototype.functor = function (arg1, ...) { /* do things! */ }
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# [19:32] <jarek> Pomax: but "for (var i in CSSOM)" will enumerate over CSSOM.prototype.functor
# [19:32] <jarek> Pomax: unless I filter it with isOwnProperty (or something like that, I don't remember)
# [19:33] <Pomax> if you look at DOMTokenList, you'll see that all its functions are in the prototype, with only length being a direct object property
# [19:33] <jarek> hmm... let me check...
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# [19:33] <Pomax> you always have to
# [19:34] <Pomax> even for DOMTokenList, using for(attr in DomTokenList) will list add, remove, contains, etc.
# [19:34] <Pomax> never use for(a in b) without checks =)
# [19:34] <BrianBlakely> Pomax: I read through a bit of your article… mother of god
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# [19:35] <Pomax> all mathed out now?
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# [19:37] <jarek> http://jsfiddle.net/x4u3G/
# [19:37] <jarek> yup, it enumerates over the properties from prototype
# [19:39] <jarek> I think I have an idea
# [19:39] <jarek> I will extend Object.prototype with custom method that will do iteration the right way
# [19:39] <jarek> like array.forEach()
# [19:40] <Pomax> http://jsfiddle.net/x4u3G/1/ to show it also does it for native object
# [19:40] <jarek> then I could be using it instead of for loop
# [19:40] <Pomax> for/in + if = the right way =)
# [19:41] <Pomax> for/in means "for every property in object ...", not "for every numerated item in object".
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# [19:42] <Pomax> the real question is what you want to iterate over.
# [19:43] <Pomax> if you only have specific properties, why not use an iterator array?
# [19:43] <Pomax> or rather, iterator object.
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# [19:45] <jarek> Pomax: afaik JavaScript does not provide built-in support for iterators
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# [19:47] <jarek> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript/Guide/Iterators_and_Generators
# [19:47] <jarek> oh, it does
# [19:47] <Velmont> jarek: It will be deprecated.
# [19:47] <Velmont> :-((((
# [19:47] <Pomax> http://jsfiddle.net/uPqFv/
# [19:47] <jarek> there is no Iterator object in Chrome
# [19:47] <Pomax> don't need a special iterator when you have objects and for/in
# [19:47] <Velmont> I was really needing it for something today. Or ,well, I want to use it for writing some async tests in a nice sync manner.
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# [19:48] <Velmont> But we won't get it in ES6. -- Will get other nice stuff though, but sadly no generator.
# [19:48] <Pomax> I just hope they rename "let" to something not quite so stupid >_>
# [19:49] <jarek> Pomax: is this really iterator? You are simply moving the enumerable data to separate array
# [19:49] <Pomax> vain hope probably.
# [19:49] <Velmont> Pomax: Bikeshed anyone? :P -- What should it be named then?
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# [19:49] <jarek> Pomax: let is already implement in Firefox, so it's very likely that it will stay this way
# [19:49] <Pomax> indeed.
# [19:50] <jarek> Pomax: there is already a lot of code that uses let all over the place, e.g. Gnome Shell
# [19:50] <Velmont> jarek: I stumbled upon an extension that did live update of the page when you're updating your CSS. Might be used as a CSS editor; -- only not too polished :P https://addons.opera.com/en/addons/extensions/details/include-css/0.36/
# [19:50] <jarek> Velmont: thanks, I will investigate this and still any ideas if possible
# [19:51] <Pomax> to be honest I have no idea why you would need a special keyword if the point is to add block scoping for variables. but using "let" is a verb, not a declaration.
# [19:51] <Pomax> even "lvar" or something would have made more sense.
# [19:52] <Pomax> unless ES6 is going full natural language of course. "let x be 7, y range from 1 to 100. [...]" =)
# [19:52] <Pomax> but then let does exactly the same thing as var.
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# [19:52] <jarek> Velmont: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGBa8FQa-Kc
# [19:52] <Pomax> (conceptually)
# [19:52] <jarek> Velmont: sorry, I'm not impressed :P
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# [19:53] <jarek> Velmont: it's more like Stylish for Firefox, with very basic editing capabilities
# [19:54] <Velmont> jarek: Oh, -- I thought you could use an external editor. I only read the text :p
# [19:54] <Velmont> jarek: Like, -- using vim on one screen, and when you do changes there (and it autosaves) it loads it and updates in the browser. -- Thus, it doesn't really need any UI at all in fact. It only needs to poll the file.
# [19:55] <Velmont> Actually, that would be pretty easy to hack.
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# [19:58] <jarek> Velmont: btw, is it really a good idea to use Opera as main development browser?
# [19:59] <jarek> Velmont: it has many quirks not present on Webkit/Gecko
# [19:59] <Velmont> jarek: Well, I work in Opera, -- so it helps a lot :P
# [20:01] <jarek> Velmont: yeah, I guess this is a good reason to test against Opera first
# [20:01] <Velmont> jarek: I mean, I was recently employed by Opera. :-) Work in might have a double meaning.
# [20:02] <jarek> but if you take at some big name websites, they don't even bother to include opera vendor prefixes in their stylesheets
# [20:03] <jarek> s/take at/take a look at
# [20:04] <Velmont> jarek: Yes, -- but I'm mostly reading specs and writing test cases for them, -- so I find more bugs and quirks in other browsers :P -- But that's only new stuff, and mostly JS-related. I know that there's quirks in much of the older stuff.
# [20:04] <Velmont> jarek: Yes, -- vendor prefixes is a clamp... I'm not very fond of them. Not the way they're being used now. I hate writing 1000 lines of background: -moz-linear-gradient(, etc.
# [20:05] <jarek> Velmont: I can stand vendor prefixes in single properties
# [20:06] <jarek> Velmont: but something like @-webkit-animation is a bit too much
# [20:06] <jarek> I mean @-webkit-keyframes
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# [20:07] <Velmont> jarek: And I guess *everyone* forgets to do -khtml-linear-gradient
# [20:08] <jarek> https://github.com/daneden/animate.css/blob/master/animate.css
# [20:08] <jarek> ^ I hope this is not the future of CSS
# [20:08] <Velmont> IMHO it's doing more harm than good. Much more. -- Should rather land on a common spec faster, and actually stick to that, -- if it turns out to be bad then it can be changed for everyone... Or instead of vendor prefixes, version prefixes -2011-linear-gradient... If they must :P
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# [20:11] <jarek> hopefully Chrome will reach 90% market share till 2015 so that we will not need standards anymore
# [20:11] <Velmont> jarek: At least we save some bytes on the name :P
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# [20:16] <jarek> btw, are -kthml prefixes really needed?
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# [20:16] <jarek> I thought that KDE has switched to WebKit
# [20:16] <Pomax> yes, hopefully one browser gets to call the shots, so that they get to decide what the internet should look like.
# [20:16] <Pomax> oh wait, that's exactlyt the shit we didn't want =)
# [20:17] <jarek> http://www.konqueror.org/css/
# [20:17] <jarek> they are still using KHTML :/
# [20:17] <jarek> I wonder why, there are already complete QtWebkit bindings
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# [20:24] <BrianBlakely> Nobody explained how IE marketshare rose 5% in one month after falling by 0.5% every month for the last year.
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# [20:25] <BrianBlakely> What the shit
# [20:25] <BrianBlakely> http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-na-monthly-201011-201111
# [20:25] <BrianBlakely> This is apocalypse-level
# [20:25] <Pomax> did everyone get their hands on windows 8 previews this month?
# [20:26] <Velmont> Oh, I've wasted much time trying to figure that stuff out. -- But I just went to a coworker who had it to test what I needed.
# [20:26] <BrianBlakely> Pomax: Didn't work on VMWare, but I should give it another go
# [20:27] <Pomax> it'd explain the temporary rise in IE.
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# [20:27] <BrianBlakely> Pomax: Except that most of that rise was in IE8
# [20:27] <Pomax> since it probably uses something that identifies itself as IE for all networkstuff
# [20:27] <BrianBlakely> WTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTF
# [20:27] <Pomax> but was it "IE8" or "IE/win8" =P
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# [20:28] <BrianBlakely> Do you really think 3% of all North Americans tried Windows 8 in November?
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# [20:29] <Pomax> I think there might have been one or two days where people who normally use Chrome suddenlys spent most of their payed, working day, playing with windows 8
# [20:29] <Pomax> which can severely throw off statistics.
# [20:29] <Pomax> does this site have day by day stats?
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# [20:30] <BrianBlakely> Pomax: Indeed - http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version-na-daily-20111102-20111201
# [20:30] <BrianBlakely> Tougher to read, however
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# [20:30] <Pomax> hmm
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# [20:32] <BrianBlakely> But wow, the Chrome upgrade rate is a thing of unutterable beauty
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# [20:58] <paul_irish> BrianBlakely: what the eff is thattttt
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# [20:58] <BrianBlakely> The first sign of The End of Days paul_irish
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# [21:17] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: you around?
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# [21:23] <danielfilho> chrome is now the #1 browser in Brazil! \o/
# [21:23] <danielfilho> can't believe IE just dropped that much :)
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# [21:34] <croby> so the very good URI regex in jquery.validate doesn't seem to allow the pipe | character -- yet I see it in URLs (examples http://bugs.jquery.com/ticket/4694) -- anyone know any background on that?
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# [21:38] <Pomax> | is technically illegal in a URL
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# [21:38] <Pomax> but a decent browser will go "there is actually no good reason for that, I'm going to accept it anyway"
# [21:39] <Pomax> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1738.txt, search for "|", first result is the right result
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# [21:40] <croby> that's what I found so far too - I'm wondering if I should allow it in the regex because of the browser behavior, or if I maybe should have a pre-processor that transforms it or something
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# [21:41] <croby> Pomax: the weird thing there is, ~ is also listed there but passes the jquery.validate regex
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# [21:41] <Pomax> that would suggest the validate is too loose, officially, as well as too strict, practically =)
# [21:41] <croby> :)
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# [21:47] <Pomax> I love the Japanese sometimes.
# [21:47] <Pomax> "jQueryの作者であるJohn Lessigがプロトタイプ開発"
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# [21:48] <Pomax> that's what happens when your langauge has no distinction between R and L
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# [21:49] <BrianBlakely> danielfilho: What the hell happened in your nation recently?
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# [21:50] <BrianBlakely> Did the gov't switch browsers or something?
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# [21:51] <BrianBlakely> Maybe all the IE users moved from South America to North America…
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# [22:02] <jarek> let's say that I have following array:
# [22:03] <jarek> var keys = [true, "blah", "length", 22]
# [22:03] <jarek> what is the fastest way to remove "length" item from this array?
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# [22:04] <jarek> keys.indexOf('length')
# [22:04] <jarek> and then splice this index?
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# [22:13] <Pomax> short of rolling your own, that's the most convenient.
# [22:14] <Pomax> if you absolute need speed, note that indexOf will already iterate through the array entry by entry, so you could bypass it with a function of your own that creates an empty array, fills it with entries while iterating over the filled array until it finds the to-remove value, and then merge the rest of the filled array after that entry into the initially empty array
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# [22:21] <jarek> Pomax: btw, I get it now what you meant by moving non-enumerable properties to prototype, this approach feels really clean
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# [22:24] <jarek> WebKit inspectors shows the name of the constructor function when inspecting an object
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# [22:25] <jarek> this is very useful feature, but it requires me to build my inheritance chain with constructors
# [22:25] <jarek> could it be possible to have simillar feature when using Object.create()?
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# [22:26] <jarek> I mean it would be helpful I could see the name of the prototype, not just its methods
# [22:27] <jarek> I was thinking about creating a wrapper around Object.create that would automatically add special property "name"
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# [22:28] <jarek> I should probably call it __PROTOTYPE_NAME__ or something like that
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# [22:38] <moo-_-> jarek: there is no point of having underscores and caps in Javascript
# [22:39] <danielfilho> BrianBlakely: we're getting better on our choices, I think! hahaha :)
# [22:39] <danielfilho> improving it day by day.
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# [22:40] <jarek> moo-_-: yeah, but there is a convention that constants are in uppercase and magic variables are between __
# [22:40] <moo-_-> jarek: in JS there are no constants
# [22:40] <moo-_-> if you use uppercase use it for gloabls
# [22:40] <moo-_-> and also, there are no magic variables either :)
# [22:41] <jarek> moo-_-: if I recall correctly, const is working on Firefox, Chrome and Safari
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# [22:41] <jarek> though it's non-standard
# [22:41] <moo-_-> jarek: names http://javascript.crockford.com/code.html :)
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# [22:42] <moo-_-> though crockford is not always right he has some good points
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# [22:42] <jarek> moo-_-: I don't trust Crockford since I have learned that he is using "for (;;)" loops
# [22:42] <moo-_-> haha
# [22:42] <moo-_-> that's why I said some good points ;)
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# [22:43] <danielfilho> jarek: it works as a cute crying face :)
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# [22:46] <Velmont> Python doesn't have const. But it has lotsa magic __vars__.
# [22:47] <moo-_-> Velmont: also some of them are against pep-8 style guide
# [22:47] <moo-_-> and python has significance for _ and __
# [22:47] <moo-_-> so they do matter
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# Session Close: Sat Dec 03 00:00:00 2011

The end :)