/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-12-03 / end

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# Session Start: Sat Dec 03 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:15] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: now I am, but briefly before I hit the sack (in the soft bits)
# [00:15] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: pulling your code over to the google goodness btw...
# [00:15] <JonathanNeal> great
# [00:16] <JonathanNeal> did you see i made you a contributor on a github page for it?
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# [00:18] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: yep - about to clone and send up a tweak (to comments)
# [00:18] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: I'm right in saying html5shim is on window object to allow for iframes to make use of it, right?
# [00:19] <JonathanNeal> so the major new features are 1. print-shimming no longer changes the weight of selectors, 2. the html5 shim can be extended to include other elements, 3. iframes accessible through the domain are non-destructively print shimmed as well, and 4. base styles are added to html5 elements.
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# [00:20] <remysharp> I'm going to take that as a 'yes' :)
# [00:20] <JonathanNeal> yes
# [00:20] <remysharp> ;)
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# [00:20] <JonathanNeal> its there so it can be extended.
# [00:21] <remysharp> fuck me sideways - we should get people to save paper and not print - it's one line to 225 lines :)
# [00:22] <JonathanNeal> there were a number of times i read about people wanted to add their own elements, so i expose some of the main functions to allow it to be extended.
# [00:22] <JonathanNeal> yea, the print shimming is far greater in weight.
# [00:22] <JonathanNeal> OH there's another new feature in v3, createElement and createDocumentFragment are shimmed.
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# [00:23] <remysharp> abserlunkly
# [00:23] <JonathanNeal> In 90% of javascript usecases. This saves you from needing to modify your script or use another tool to ensure shims work when playing in javascript.
# [00:23] <remysharp> to me, as a grunt, that and the CSS are the key changes.
# [00:24] <JonathanNeal> those are the non-print related ones, yes.
# [00:25] * Parts: doro_ (~Adium@67.215.88.188)
# [00:25] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: could you write up the changes in like.. blog post/bulletpoint form so we can add them to html5shiv/modernizr docs?
# [00:25] <JonathanNeal> with a minor addition also being the ability to add your own elements to the existing shim (print protected and all)
# [00:25] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: yea sure, i'll put them in the git when i update the code.
# [00:25] <JonathanNeal> I wasn't sure how to write up the opening comment, and I think remysharp is working on just that.
# [00:26] <JonathanNeal> is that what you're doing, remysharp?
# [00:26] <remysharp> sorry, which opening comment, the credit?
# [00:26] <JonathanNeal> the credit which includes the name/version of the script, and any credits (maybe also a link)
# [00:26] <remysharp> in fact, no - I was just going to clarify why we're now introducing doberries to the global doberry
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# [00:27] <remysharp> gotta add this too: "// Dual licensed under the MIT or GPL Version 2 licenses"
# [00:27] <remysharp> assume you're fine with that
# [00:27] <JonathanNeal> yea, i wanna update my script to include all of that.
# [00:27] <remysharp> gives us some drupel lovin'
# [00:27] <remysharp> in fact, they asked me specifically to license it under that so it could be included.
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# [00:27] <remysharp> so ... there's that
# [00:28] <paul_irish> drupal project is confused about GPL and javascript.
# [00:28] <paul_irish> ohwell.
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# [00:28] <remysharp> just doing a sanity check on the html5 elements
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# [00:28] <JonathanNeal1> remysharp: i removed datagrid
# [00:28] <remysharp> so did I -... I think
# [00:28] <remysharp> I've got my list in front of me - just checking it now
# [00:28] <JonathanNeal1> i guess that's a change too, i'll write all of this down. oh thanks!
# [00:29] <JonathanNeal1> thanks for doing this with me, i was really looking forward to getting this out there.
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# [00:30] <remysharp> ah - dialog removed in new one
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# [00:30] <remysharp> no
# [00:30] <remysharp> added
# [00:30] <ProLoser|Work> canary is not letting me create new css attributes
# [00:30] <remysharp> we want to keep dialog in the new one?
# [00:30] <ProLoser|Work> for a newly generated selector
# [00:30] <JonathanNeal> link to something that tells me why we should or shouldn't keep dialog ?
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# [00:30] <remysharp> can I link to google? 8-|
# [00:30] <remysharp> ;-)
# [00:31] <remysharp> one mo
# [00:31] <remysharp> ha: http://html5doctor.com/a-little-more-conversation-with-dialog/
# [00:31] <remysharp> WHAT DO I WIN!?!?!!?!?!
# [00:31] <JonathanNeal> haha, i'm on that site too.
# [00:31] <remysharp> A free hat perchance?
# [00:31] <remysharp> or maybe some shoelaces.
# [00:31] <JonathanNeal> nothing, it doesn't tell me about a debate for or against dialog, does it?
# [00:31] <JonathanNeal> oh, except in the very opening sentence.
# [00:32] * JonathanNeal hands remy his shoelaces.
# [00:32] * remysharp wears shoelaces as a hat - doublewin
# [00:32] <franksalim> what is he going to do with your shoelaces?
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# [00:32] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: followup, does dialog work?
# [00:32] <remysharp> RUN FOR ENGLAND!
# [00:32] <remysharp> nope
# [00:32] <remysharp> oh - wait
# [00:32] <remysharp> let me try
# [00:32] <JonathanNeal> i'm trying to, and i'm only asking because it's faster than trying and i know you're crunched for time
# [00:33] <JonathanNeal> *i'm trying too
# [00:33] <remysharp> Chrome says it's an unknownHTMLElement
# [00:33] <ProLoser|Work> secrets and lies
# [00:33] <remysharp> So if Chrome says it's unknown, I guess it means we should pretend like we don't know it either
# [00:33] <remysharp> otherwise we won't be in the cool gang.
# [00:33] <JonathanNeal> dialog works in chrome for me
# [00:33] <remysharp> nope - check the DOM node
# [00:33] <JonathanNeal> a dl isn't added between it and the dt/dd
# [00:34] <remysharp> as in it's instanceof
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# [00:34] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: http://jsconsole.com/?document.createElement('dialog')%20instanceof%20HTMLUnknownElement
# [00:35] <JonathanNeal> i understand, i guess it's a choice of thinking it might come back or not, like hgroup
# [00:35] <remysharp> That's why the call me the shoelaces wearing mutha funknut.
# [00:35] <remysharp> hgroup is dead.
# [00:35] <remysharp> I shot it in the head, that's how I know.
# [00:35] <remysharp> don't tell anyone.
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# [00:36] <remysharp> actually, hgroup isn't dead to Chrome
# [00:36] <JonathanNeal> document.createElement('hgroup') instanceof HTMLUnknownElement === false
# [00:36] <remysharp> for the record
# [00:36] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: yeah, I may sound drunk, but I'm faster on the keyboard ;-)
# [00:36] <JonathanNeal> yea... but we think it's dead, but we can't kill it because it's not actually dead yet.
# [00:36] <remysharp> so - that's what I sad ;-P
# [00:36] <remysharp> *said
# [00:36] <JonathanNeal> i say keep dialog
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# [00:36] <remysharp> anyway - dialog out, hgroup in. nuf said.
# [00:37] <JonathanNeal> haha, okay fine
# [00:37] <JonathanNeal> you know i'm only going to cry when you pull subline anyway.
# [00:37] <remysharp> nah, subline is in
# [00:37] <remysharp> I think.
# [00:37] <paul_irish> :/
# [00:37] <remysharp> I've just got beef with dialog tonight
# [00:38] <remysharp> I'll save my shit for subline for another night
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# [00:38] <paul_irish> subline isn't really considered a serious contender these days in the headline wars
# [00:38] <JonathanNeal> see now i'm crying
# [00:38] <remysharp> we've backing the underdog fool!
# [00:38] <JonathanNeal> okay, i feel better.
# [00:38] <franksalim> why does everything have to be a war, anyway
# [00:38] <remysharp> because DOM nodes are secretly gun runners - check their properties
# [00:38] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: any notes on the headline wars we could find useful? is it over?
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# [00:39] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals#ISSUE-164:_no_hgroup
# [00:39] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: oh - so one extra difference between the google hosted version and yours:
# [00:39] <remysharp> IE
# [00:39] * remysharp I will explain... perhaps
# [00:39] <JonathanNeal> please do explain
# [00:40] <remysharp> google version is wrapped in @cc_on
# [00:40] <remysharp> purposely sniffing to avoid parsing the JS on other browsers
# [00:40] <JonathanNeal> so, for the record, i think the best thing is to follow the spec to the t. then, if we think other elements are useful to leave in, maybe, but definitely i would never cut anything that is currently allowed.
# [00:41] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: agree
# [00:41] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: well, the code is compatible with other browsers and the execution will be very short, but sure.
# [00:41] <franksalim> whoa. Today I learned there is an @_win16 condition. Just in case my script is running on 16 bit windows
# [00:41] <franksalim> and that's from a code sample in the windows 8 /windows runtime docs
# [00:42] <franksalim> i don't think there's going to be a 16 bit win8
# [00:42] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: seen this? http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hSub2
# [00:42] <remysharp> good lord no
# [00:42] <remysharp> I don't fraternise withe the proposalists. I've got too much to do in a normal day! :)
# [00:43] <superevr> yo remysharp enjoyed your into to html5 book.
# [00:43] <remysharp> on your note - so we'll drop subline, and keep hgroup
# [00:43] * JonathanNeal sniffs.
# [00:43] <JonathanNeal> that's okay, it was my easter egg.
# [00:43] <remysharp> superevr: thanks. Bruce didn't do any of his chapters. When he said he did, he lied. I'll be taking all credit.
# [00:43] * remysharp muhahah
# [00:44] <superevr> ok i'll make a note of that
# [00:44] <JonathanNeal> okay, so i will update my script to cut dialog and subline.
# [00:44] * Parts: shichuan (~Shi_Chuan@31.205.41.171)
# [00:44] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: dude, the print code is long enough, we could inject pictures of you naked on a lot of sites (I recommend doing that whilst reading Introducing HTML5)
# [00:44] <superevr> you have a revised edition coming out, right?
# [00:44] <remysharp> superevr: released a couple of months ago
# [00:44] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: do no evil
# [00:44] <remysharp> I think Bruce wrote a blog post about it
# [00:45] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: are you down with cutting dialog and subline since they're not in the spec?
# [00:45] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: yeah, alright... >:-) (I can't fucking do emoticons ;-\|\'434@£@)
# [00:45] <JonathanNeal> if he agrees, then it's three of us, a far more powerful number than two of us. This is my woodshop class logic.
# [00:46] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: your logic is old and busted
# [00:46] <remysharp> didn't you see lord of the rings?
# [00:46] <JonathanNeal> one ring is the lonliest number?
# [00:46] <daleharvey> does modernizr tell me if a browser supports range inputs properly? (cc paul_irish)
# [00:46] <paul_irish> remysharp: why not use the feature test instead of @cc_on
# [00:46] <remysharp> daleharvey: it does - there's a butt ton of code to do it too
# [00:46] <paul_irish> js parsing overhead?
# [00:46] <BrianBlakely> Later #html5
# [00:47] <remysharp> paul_irish: waste of effort
# [00:47] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: now one last difference i want normalized between our scripts, how are you doing comments?
# [00:47] <daleharvey> sweet cheers
# [00:47] <paul_irish> incompat with closurecompiler/yuicomp though
# [00:47] * Parts: BrianBlakely (~Adium@out.dentsuamerica.com)
# [00:47] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: waiting on your commits first
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# [00:47] <JonathanNeal> remysharp, paul_irish, my html5shim has feature testing!
# [00:47] <remysharp> paul_irish: still, in all seriousness, waste of effort.
# [00:47] <JonathanNeal> i'm against the cc.
# [00:48] <remysharp> paul_irish: show me one browser, other than from IE that can't handle HTML5 elements, and the shim will fix to allow users to style
# [00:48] <JonathanNeal> they are still downloading the bytes, i would sooner cc the script tag than the script.
# [00:48] <paul_irish> remysharp: we're gonna shift to default to a shiv without print protection in modernizr
# [00:48] <remysharp> (i.e. not Firefox 2 or camino - since that shit is messed up!)
# [00:48] <remysharp> paul_irish: yeah, I know
# [00:48] <remysharp> paul_irish: you...um, told me :)
# [00:48] <paul_irish> i forget things :)
# [00:48] <remysharp> paul_irish: and rightly so I think
# [00:49] <remysharp> which supports my logic to avoid running the code in the first place if we're not in IE.
# [00:49] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: i could strip the print protector out of this html5shim and you could still have the other benefits like the css and the createElement/createDocumentFragment .
# [00:49] <paul_irish> remysharp: oh yeah my anti @cc isnt about feature detection being the One True Way.. its just moreso tool compat.
# [00:49] <JonathanNeal> and by that i mean produce a separate non-print version.
# [00:49] <paul_irish> with hosted it doesnt matter.
# [00:49] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: i'd be interested in seeing what that looks like
# [00:50] <remysharp> paul_irish: not sure I understood that
# [00:50] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: that would be good - the google resource is offering both too - so it would make sense to upgrade to v3 on the non-print version
# [00:50] <JonathanNeal> the whole thing is modular so that'll be easy, just one sec. remysharp i already updated the sandbox copy of html5shim based on what you told me, but i still am not sure how to comment the first few lines, just a sec.
# [00:50] <paul_irish> remysharp: doesnt matter really :)
# [00:50] * remysharp agrees :)
# [00:50] <JonathanNeal> google made an html5 shim?
# [00:51] <remysharp> no - it's hosted on the google code site
# [00:51] <remysharp> github's hotlinking is slow as hell
# [00:51] <remysharp> google's isn't
# [00:51] <remysharp> lots of people just copy and paste and link directly off googecode.com
# [00:51] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5shim/html5shim-printless.js
# [00:52] <remysharp> hence why I'm waiting for you now, and then when you're done, I'll compress, add the header and publish to googlecode
# [00:52] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: is afarkas up to date on whats going on
# [00:52] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: any reason to keep the html5 object global still?
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# [00:52] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: thinking most folk just copy and paste and style away
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# [00:52] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: i've been waiting/looking for him. he has had the opportunity to be, but he disappeared after our talk about htc files.
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# [00:53] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: ping him on email again
# [00:53] <JonathanNeal> he said he was going to look into dynamic htc files and that was the last i heard of him, i presume he'll reappear, but i didn't want to delay the script much longer.
# [00:53] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: gladly.
# [00:53] <paul_irish> :)
# [00:56] <andersonjuhasc> hey paul_irish
# [00:56] <JonathanNeal> whoops, need to resend that
# [00:56] <JonathanNeal> only went to you paul
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# [00:56] <JonathanNeal> Okay, done.
# [00:57] <paul_irish> thx. i pinged him on skype to check
# [00:57] <JonathanNeal> when in doubt, look at how jquery code does something.
# [00:58] <JonathanNeal> i accidentally wrote "gpl" as "jpg" whoops
# [00:59] <JonathanNeal> okay how do the comments look now, remysharp?
# [01:00] <remysharp> bloody trackpad is clicking for me
# [01:00] <remysharp> randomly closed a ton of windows
# [01:00] <remysharp> did you make a change or you asking?
# [01:00] * remysharp I was just looking at the source on github
# [01:00] <JonathanNeal> i'm about to update that, but i'm writing up the notes paul_irish asked for
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# [01:01] <remysharp> I'm cloning then
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# [01:03] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: actually -
# [01:03] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: why is "supportsXElments" on the html5 object?
# [01:04] <daleharvey> woot, added a bunch since last night - http://junk.arandomurl.com/Protoshop/
# [01:04] <remysharp> why not protected via a closure?
# [01:04] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: i guess i could protect it. tis why i kept asking for input :)
# [01:05] <JonathanNeal> i'm thinking about it, thank you, i think it's a good idea.
# [01:05] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: got me a new baby - eyes don't work to well since then
# [01:05] * remysharp that excuse definitely has a few years in it
# [01:05] <remysharp> I can move
# [01:05] <remysharp> (it)
# [01:06] <JonathanNeal> I have some code updates to make so just a sec.
# [01:06] <JonathanNeal> There are a lot of new features.
# [01:07] <remysharp> how are there a lot of new features already?!
# [01:07] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5shim/changes.txt
# [01:07] <remysharp> I take it back - you're quicker!
# [01:08] <JonathanNeal> no, remember, paul asked that i write down all the new features in v3
# [01:08] <remysharp> ah, so you're happy for me in the code
# [01:08] <remysharp> also - balls. I can't wrap in @cc_on
# [01:08] <remysharp> me sadface
# [01:09] <remysharp> A pair of shoelaces to the person who can guess why
# [01:09] <remysharp> in fact.
# [01:09] <remysharp> crap.
# [01:09] <remysharp> Sorry JonathanNeal - there's more work to be done
# [01:10] <remysharp> like I said - as a grunt, the main features are: 1) HTML5 markup injection now works
# [01:10] <JonathanNeal> maybe it's a sign not to cc
# [01:10] <remysharp> 2) CSS styles
# [01:10] <remysharp> but
# [01:10] <remysharp> if browser supports x-element, it doesn't get CSS styles
# [01:10] <remysharp> So Safari 4
# [01:11] <remysharp> does support x-element
# [01:11] <remysharp> but doesn't have article { display: block }
# [01:11] <remysharp> so this shim is supposed to do the work
# [01:11] <remysharp> yet it hasn't - it'll only do it for browsers like IE who lack x-element support
# [01:11] <remysharp> see the problem?
# [01:11] <JonathanNeal> fixable
# [01:11] <remysharp> indeed
# [01:12] <JonathanNeal> good thing i'm extracting the supportsUnknownElements function.
# [01:13] <JonathanNeal> what would you think is the fastest possible test for base html5 styles, if nav is block?
# [01:13] <remysharp> Dude, my carriage is about to turn in to a pumpkin 8-|
# [01:13] <JonathanNeal> well, you can update it another day :)
# [01:13] <moo-_-> JonathanNeal: check if margin applies?
# [01:13] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: me thinking...
# [01:14] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: why not make some assumptions
# [01:14] <JonathanNeal> because that's not how i roll.
# [01:14] <remysharp> 1) if x-element isn't supported, assume CSS isn't in place - so no need to detect
# [01:15] <JonathanNeal> yes, but what about safari?
# [01:15] <remysharp> 2) if x-element is supported, check CSS support - and only apply if not in place
# [01:15] <remysharp> (that's why I started with (1) ! )
# [01:15] <remysharp> :)
# [01:15] <JonathanNeal> yea, that's what i'm trying to do, think up a fast css test.
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# [01:15] <remysharp> there's another assumption you could make...
# [01:16] <remysharp> but I'm not mad on it
# [01:16] * remysharp hmm maybe not...
# [01:16] <JonathanNeal> i tried getComputedStyle(document.createElement('nav')).display
# [01:17] * GoOz is now known as GoOz`aw
# [01:17] <remysharp> I was going to say you can assume that support
# [01:17] <remysharp> because it it doesn't support x-element, it doesn't support getComputedStyle
# [01:18] <remysharp> but you're not going to bother checking CSS support, you're just going to add the styles if it doesn't support x-element
# [01:18] <remysharp> if it *does* support x-el, then you want to do getComputedStyle
# [01:18] <JonathanNeal> I also tried... var a = document.createElement('a'); var n = document.createElement('nav'); a.appendChild(n); n.style.margin = '1px'; n.offsetWidth;
# [01:18] <JonathanNeal> getComputedStyle won't tell me if the element is block.
# [01:19] <remysharp> yeah
# [01:19] <JonathanNeal> so either i append/remove it from the dom (which i'd prefer not to do) or think of another way.
# [01:19] <remysharp> sorry, bit slow on that
# [01:19] <remysharp> because it's a native browser style
# [01:19] <remysharp> terrific
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# [01:24] <JonathanNeal> the other less-desirable option is var n = document.createElement('b'); document.documentElement.appendChild(n); getComputedStyle(n).display;
# [01:24] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: given your background in testing, do you approve of this kind of testing?
# [01:25] <JonathanNeal> i'm not concerned with the simple issue of using either getComputedStyle or currentStyle
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# [01:28] <JonathanNeal1> sorry i probably missed something
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# [01:28] * remysharp matrix effect
# [01:29] <JonathanNeal> what happened?
# [01:29] <remysharp> You were in the room
# [01:29] <remysharp> then JonathanNeal1 joined the room
# [01:29] <remysharp> then he mophed in to you.
# [01:29] <remysharp> it was weird.
# [01:29] <remysharp> *morphed
# [01:30] <JonathanNeal> awesome, well the only way i think we can do this (i tried a margin thing moo-_-) is append to docEl
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# [01:30] <remysharp> agree.
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# [01:32] <JonathanNeal> (function (n, d, g) { d.appendChild(n); return (g ? g(n) : n.currentStyle).display === 'block'; })(doc.createElement('nav'), doc.documentElement, win.getComputedStyle);
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# [01:33] <JonathanNeal> oh and then we better remove it, haha.
# [01:36] <JonathanNeal> var supportsHtml5Styling = (function (nav, docEl, compStyle) { docEl.appendChild(nav); return (compStyle ? compStyle(nav) : nav.currentStyle).display === 'block' && !!docEl.removeChild(nav); })(doc.createElement('nav'), doc.documentElement, win.getComputedStyle);
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# [01:40] <remysharp> do you need the compStyle detect?
# [01:40] <remysharp> also
# [01:40] <remysharp> might be wrong, but if display != 'block' it won't call the removeChild, will it?
# [01:41] <remysharp> bear in mind it's late for me and there's a metric ton of brackets in that line of code
# [01:41] <remysharp> plus, I'm thick
# [01:41] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: check out http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5shim/html5shim-printless.js
# [01:41] <JonathanNeal> oh yea good point
# [01:41] <remysharp> paul_irish: are you taking this version, in modernizr, that gives CSS styles by default
# [01:42] <remysharp> I mean, I guess you are - JonathanNeal did all that hard work for you
# [01:42] <remysharp> apparently he also wrote and recorded a new song all about the HTML5 printless JavaScript file, so it would be mean of you, paul_irish, not to include it.
# [01:44] <JonathanNeal> :|
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# [01:48] <JonathanNeal> I think it's done @ http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5shim/html5shim-printless.js
# [01:48] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: ^
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# [01:49] * remysharp reads
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# [01:57] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: gotta hit the sack dude - 1am, bleery with baby on board :\
# [01:57] <remysharp> got the window open, will check out during w/e
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# [01:58] <remysharp> if all good - will push to googlecode and you shall have your cake and eat it
# [01:58] <JonathanNeal> yum
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# [02:18] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: https://github.com/jonathantneal/html5shim/commit/8b7fb920402b2b4d8cded03f37274b2b3e70aea9
# [02:18] <socialhapy> ★ Commit on html5shim by jonathantneal (34.55s ago): HTML5 Shim v3Major changes:- There are now two versions of the HTML5 shim, one which includes the print protector and one which does not.- Feature detection for unknown elements.- The document methods createElement and createDocumentFragment are now shimmed which, in most cases, allow innerHTML to work correctly.- Base styles are included for HTML5 elements. They use minimal s
# [02:18] <socialhapy> ets.- Additional elements can be added to the shim in the event that you wish you future-proof your script or add your own fictional elements.Major changes specific to print:- Shimming the CSS no longer increases the selector weight of HTML5 elements (as it did previously).- Frames are automatically shimmed during print if they are accessible by the current domain.
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# [02:19] <paul_irish> hmmmmm
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# [02:20] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: i'd rather see this committed to the afarkas/iepp repo
# [02:20] <paul_irish> as to not confuse efforts
# [02:20] <JonathanNeal> sure! :)
# [02:21] <JonathanNeal> i sent him that email and left him a message on skype
# [02:21] <paul_irish> k sweet
# [02:21] <paul_irish> thx
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# [05:09] <daleharvey> I fricking hate the web sometimes
# [05:10] <tw2113> too many cats and bacon?
# [05:10] <daleharvey> if I have a set of floated elements inside a floated container and I have imported the css via <link> on a page server from the filsystem it breaks 1 out of 5 refreshes
# [05:10] <daleharvey> *served
# [05:11] <daleharvey> at least thats what I have so far, second I paste the css into the page it works
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# [05:14] <grantg> tw2113: Never enough cats and bacon
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# [05:15] <tw2113> too much on the latter
# [05:16] <grantg> Can't say no to http://i.imgur.com/eqTIb.jpg
# [05:18] <grantg> heh, oh wow, I've left so many js projects unfinished, I should probably finish them. :O
# [05:18] <grantg> I've been afk from some stuff for too long
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# [05:18] <tw2113> no gameboy dev going on?
# [05:18] <grantg> Like how there's 2000 lines of 6502 opcode decoding and yet the video code isn't connected to the opcode decoding.
# [05:18] <grantg> gameboy color is done
# [05:18] <grantg> GBA was being brought up again
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# [05:18] <grantg> 6502 for NES though. :P
# [05:19] <grantg> heh, I left myself comments on filling in remaining undocumented opcode handling though. :/
# [05:19] <grantg> Since I manually inline everything, so it's spaghetti code for performance in firefox. :(
# [05:21] <grantg> tw2113: Saw the ARM7TDMI emulation core file I left myself, totally in the process of redoing it, since the opcode decoding was too complex for fast decoding without dispatch tables via arrays. :(
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# [05:22] <grantg> Similar to the GBC emulator, but the opcode funcs array is dynamically built now
# [05:22] <tw2113> doh
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# [05:23] <grantg> Reading up on stuff like http://members.chello.nl/taf.offenga/illopc31.txt to finish out the undocumented opcode handling verification
# [05:23] <grantg> for the NES CPU emulation
# [05:23] <grantg> I know JSNES + most NES emulators don't do undocumented opcode handling because the info is limited
# [05:24] <grantg> a few of the undocumented opcodes are unreliable, as they differed between factory production runs
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# [05:24] <grantg> like C64 vs Ricoh's custom
# [05:25] <grantg> most are stable, i.e. predictable
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# [05:25] <grantg> and some simply are illegal - a.k.a. "This kills the CPU"
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# [05:26] <grantg> due to the way the PLA lines are done in the 6502
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# [05:26] <grantg> (6502 is NOT microcoded)
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# [05:28] <grantg> Heh, here's some of the NES code: http://pastebin.com/puHAP8db
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# [05:29] <grantg> it's kinda all over the place in other files
# [05:29] <grantg> but the opcode stuff is there
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# [05:31] <daleharvey> ok this looks like a chrome bug and I have no idea wtf is going on
# [05:31] <grantg> ?
# [05:32] <daleharvey> http://pastie.org/2958234
# [05:32] <daleharvey> the css and the html need to be in seperate files
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# [05:33] <daleharvey> when I load that div class="item" id="shadow"> breaks its float every few refreshes
# [05:41] <daleharvey> omfg
# [05:41] <daleharvey> its something to do with using section :(
# [05:42] <JonathanNeal> sharing in here too
# [05:42] <JonathanNeal> the new html5shim is 1246 bytes gzipped, and 724 bytes gzipped for the printless version @ https://github.com/jonathantneal/html5shim
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# [06:02] <Pomax> heh
# [06:02] <Pomax> while possibly not widely applicable, http://pomax.nihongoresources.com/downloads/temp/svgreversal was still fun to write.
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# [06:06] <Pomax> (damn useful for rasterizing SVG that uses fill-rule:evenodd on a canvas, though)
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# [07:00] <Double_Rainbow2> hello world
# [07:00] <Double_Rainbow2> i submitted a bug report to chrome web tools
# [07:01] <Double_Rainbow2> they say it has been fixed, but i cannot really understand their fancy words
# [07:01] <Double_Rainbow2> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=83028
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# [07:11] <Pomax> DEPS -> dependencies
# [07:16] <Double_Rainbow2> so deps roll = dependencies roll ?
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# [17:48] <joesavage_> My site, http://www.dev-hq.net/, uses mainly what I like to call "modern HTML" and uses the HTML5 doctype - is it worth me switching entirely to HTML5? (Using header, footer, article, section and so on)
# [17:49] <ant-> only if you want to
# [17:50] <ant-> semantically in future google should love you as it should make your code more readable
# [17:53] <joesavage_> I guess. I'm tempted to because the site is partially FOR web developers, so they could appreciate it to. My issue is that I minify and combine all my Javascript usually, but I'd have to have another HTTP request for the IE fix for HTML5..
# [17:53] <joesavage_> too*
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# [17:55] <ant-> yeah are you talking about modernizr
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# [17:55] <joesavage_> Yeah. Modenizr or something else that creates the elements (I'm undecided on which to use, I'm not sure if I need all of Modenizr)
# [17:56] <ant-> i'd use modernizr
# [17:56] <joesavage_> Any reason inparticular?
# [17:56] <ant-> rock solid
# [17:57] <ant-> and small
# [17:57] <joesavage_> I suppose. So I'm happy to use it - but all my other JS combined stuff is before the end of the body. Is it worth the extra HTTP request?
# [17:57] <ant-> yea
# [17:57] <ant-> if your worried about it start using a cdn
# [17:58] <joesavage_> CDN?
# [17:58] <ant-> content delivery network
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# [17:59] <ant-> each browser has multiple down streams for loading a page
# [17:59] <joesavage_> Oh right - so presumably that would mean that the placement of the script tags doesn't matter
# [17:59] <ant-> however 1 domain can only use 1 strean
# [17:59] <ant-> stream*
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# [18:00] <ant-> so therefore loading from a cdn makes it so much faster
# [18:01] <joesavage_> I see. I can't really afford for a CDN for now though. Would you say it's worth going HTML5 with Modenizr despite the extra request? Should I even still worry about IE?
# [18:01] <ant-> just create a subdomain
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# [18:01] <joesavage_> I would - but I'm not sure how it would work with my current rails system.
# [18:01] <ant-> cdns can be free
# [18:01] <joesavage_> My rails system does all the minifying and stuff for me
# [18:02] <ant-> well surely you have a static folder
# [18:03] <joesavage_> It uses a public folder which server to the domain assets folder. It uses caching and everything -- I'm not too sure it would be easy to mod into a CDN
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# [18:04] <ant-> hmm it worthing looking for future projects
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# [18:04] <ant-> I'm not a ruby dev so I cant really say how easy it is
# [18:05] <joesavage_> Yeah, figures. I could use some inline scripting to remove the HTTP request - but I guess that kind of breaks the point of it all (and is ugly as hell).
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# [18:08] <ant-> yeah
# [18:08] <ant-> or do a url rewrite in apache
# [18:08] * monteslu_ is now known as monteslu
# [18:08] <joesavage_> Would that not have a huge impact on speed accessing the data from the "CDN" though
# [18:08] <joesavage_> ?
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# [18:09] <ant-> no
# [18:10] <ant-> yslow and google page speed recommend it
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# [18:10] <joesavage_> Oh wow - really? I figured a rewrite would effect speed. Can I ask what kind of rewrite you meant? [Example?]
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# [18:12] <ant-> if the request is for folder /images serve from cdn.mydomain.con
# [18:12] <joesavage_> But the actual location will be at domain.com/images -- how would I get cdn.domain.com to go there? Is that what you're suggesting?
# [18:14] <ant-> its like a redirect but on a specific request rather than a page
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# [18:15] <joesavage_> Ah cool - any ideas on how I can accomplish this? [BRB - Phone]
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# [18:21] <ant-> read this http://www.dev-explorer.com/articles/distribute-to-cdn-with-htaccess
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# [18:36] <jonathansnook> joesavage_ ant-: if you just need the element shim, just use the @rem's html5shiv. Modernizr is a little much for just that.
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# [18:37] <paul_irish> http://www.modernizr.com/download/#-iepp
# [18:37] <paul_irish> customized build with only the shim
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# [18:40] <ant-> hey paul_irish we've talked before early this year and I was doing the caffine compressor project, I'm really sorry I didn't get back I took a new job and its been a little mental ever since
# [18:41] <paul_irish> ant-: not a worry, bro
# [18:41] <ant-> Still using h5bp every day at work tho
# [18:41] <paul_irish> hollerrr
# [18:42] <ant-> quite cool doing a lot of work nintedo, if ever in london I'd love to buy you a pint
# [18:43] <ant-> if your*
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# [18:48] <Jayflux> paul_irish on the mac version of dev tools (latest release version) highlighting the styles also seems to highlight the link (style.css:44) on the top right too
# [18:48] <Jayflux> it may have been fixed not sure
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# [19:10] <jarek> Hi
# [19:11] <mled> hi
# [19:11] <jarek> is there a JS library that would provide a set of predefined data structures such dictionaries, associative arrays, iterator arrays, etc?
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# [19:11] <jarek> I have just realized that Array is nothing more than an object with several custom properties
# [19:12] <jarek> this means I could create "a better Array" myself and it would be as fast as native Array
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# [19:13] <paul_irish> ant-: was just in london. spoke at londonjs one week ago
# [19:14] <paul_irish> Jayflux: look in canary?
# [19:14] <ant-> damn
# [19:14] <ant-> maybe next year ?
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# [19:19] <Ms2ger> jarek, nope :)
# [19:20] <jarek> Ms2ger: it's wouldn't be as fast?
# [19:20] <Ms2ger> The functionality may be the same, but you can't beat the speed
# [19:22] <jarek> Ms2ger: then why DOM uses array-like objects instead regular arrays?
# [19:22] <Ms2ger> To cater for Java
# [19:22] <Ms2ger> Yeah, it's stupid, I know
# [19:23] <Ms2ger> (Also, these will be faster than your implementation as well, because the UA knows they don't do too silly things)
# [19:23] <jarek> actually, HTML5 chooses array-like objects over regular arrays as weel
# [19:23] <jarek> s/weel/well
# [19:23] <cocoadaemon> ola all
# [19:24] <jarek> e.g. window.localStorage, element.dataset
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# [19:25] <cocoadaemon> paul_irish: watched ontwick video yesterday, about the dom / innerHtml. And it was cool. Oh yeah.
# [19:25] <Ms2ger> Well, these do more than simple arrays
# [19:27] <jarek> Ms2ger: exactly, they provide methods that are not present in Array.prototype
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# [19:29] <paul_irish> cocoadaemon: cool :)
# [19:30] <cocoadaemon> Yeah, kinda liked the in-depth facts and the cool nuggets; like ( off my head ) data:text/html,<pre contenteditable> as url
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# [19:30] <Ms2ger> contenteditable=true, I guess
# [19:31] <cocoadaemon> oh, you didn't watch the video and how boolean are overkill :;)
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# [19:31] <cocoadaemon> also, fun nugget : google 404 tags
# [19:31] <Ms2ger> Well, contenteditable is an ugly special case
# [19:31] <Ms2ger> Look it up
# [19:32] <jarek> Ms2ger: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seX7jYI96GE#t=0h16m40s
# [19:32] <jarek> Ms2ger: according to this presentation the only difference between
# [19:32] <cocoadaemon> mmm nope, it's <pre contenteditable> and it works
# [19:33] <jarek> object[property] and object[0] is that the first one check where the name points to
# [19:33] <jarek> Ms2ger: so if I understand correctly, there is no performance difference when reading data from array-like objects?
# [19:33] <Ms2ger> Well no, it's both
# [19:33] <jarek> but iteration is slower?
# [19:33] <Ms2ger> jarek, if they're implemented by the browser, not much
# [19:34] <Ms2ger> Why would iteration be slower?
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# [19:36] <jarek> Ms2ger: because Array.prototype provides built-in forEach() method
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# [19:37] <Ms2ger> Yeah
# [19:37] <Ms2ger> forEach may be slower than for (var i... atm, fwiw
# [19:37] <Ms2ger> Because it needs to jump back and forth between JS and C
# [19:38] <Ms2ger> Be sure to test before assuming things about perf ;)
# [19:38] <jarek> Ms2ger: also, when using for loop I would have to check whether the property isOwnProperty :/
# [19:39] <Ms2ger> Oh, and you can use [].forEach.call(nodelist, fn), IIRC
# [19:39] <jarek> Ms2ger: I remember seeing this code somewhere
# [19:40] <jarek> but if it's possible to forEach from Array on other objects, why it's not simply provided with Object.prototype?
# [19:40] <jarek> s/to/to use
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# [19:44] <Ms2ger> Because it's unlikely to be useful on most objects
# [19:57] <Pomax> jarek: jsperf.com
# [19:57] <Pomax> go wild.
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# [20:29] <djazz> <3 HTML5 2D Canvas
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# [20:34] <Pomax> except for the part where it's ruled by Hickson?
# [20:34] <Ms2ger> Trying to troll, are you?
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# [20:34] <Pomax> no, I just hate his attitude =P
# [20:35] <Ms2ger> What about it?
# [20:35] <Pomax> I guess it's better now, he just shot down somme suggestions a year ago with arguments that basically amounted to "I don't understand why people would want this, so no."
# [20:35] <Pomax> at least more recently it's been "I don't understand why people want this, can you give me usecases" followed by "okay that's a usecase, we'll consider it"
# [20:36] <Ms2ger> That's always the intention; might not have come through that way, of course
# [20:36] <Ms2ger> s/always/always been/
# [20:37] <Pomax> I'm okay with "give me usecases". I just really don't like hearing "I don't understand you, so you cannot possibly talk about something lots of people want"
# [20:37] <Ms2ger> I doubt anybody would like that, but I also doubt that's what he meant
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# [20:38] <Pomax> you'd hope. But the feedback I got from others going "yup, that's hickson" made it sound like at the time he was just a dick.
# [20:40] <Pomax> my only functional gripe with canvas2d at the moment is that it treats text as if it's html text, using the same constraints, rather than treating the canvas as a graphics context like we know from gimp, photoshop, etc. So no multiline text for us.
# [20:41] <Pomax> my other gripes are mainly "probably in the next version of canvas2d" things, so I don't really get to gripe about them anymore =)
# [20:42] <Ms2ger> Yeah, it's really hard to introduce new features at the right speed to keep authors happy and still give implementers the time to fix bugs in older stuff
# [20:43] <Pomax> well, the things I suggest don't change behaviour. just extend it
# [20:43] <Pomax> (more text metrics properties, an elliptical arc command)
# [20:44] <Pomax> even multiline support would be backward compatible, given that no one renders multiline right now anyway because it can't.
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# [22:02] <jarek> what could be a potential use scenario for Object.seal()?
# [22:02] <jarek> when I try to add property to sealed object then it does nothing
# [22:03] <jarek> I would expect it to return error
# [22:03] <jarek> I mean, how making assignments fail silently could be useful?
# [22:04] <Pomax> clobber prevention.
# [22:04] <Pomax> if you seal an object, none of its properties can be redefined after seal() is called
# [22:04] <paul_irish> its like `const` for obj's, right?
# [22:04] <paul_irish> even tho const isnt ES..
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# [22:05] <Pomax> hmm, I guess more like final?
# [22:06] <Pomax> you can do whatever you like until you call seal(), then the object gets locked down and everything that counts as "own property" gets locked down.
# [22:06] <paul_irish> ya
# [22:06] <jarek> is it possible to make object "sealed" only if it's accessed from outside of this object?
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# [22:06] <Pomax> I don't think ES has that fine a level of visibility control
# [22:07] <jarek> no, wait... I think it works exactly this way
# [22:07] <jarek> I can modify sealed object if it from inside
# [22:08] <Pomax> once you seal, from what I can tell from the description, even internal modification like "this.prop = function() { alert('I redefined this!'); }" shouldn't work.
# [22:08] <Pomax> can you? interesting
# [22:09] * Pomax reads through defineownproperty
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# [22:12] <jarek__> argh, it doesn't work: http://jsfiddle.net/9Q8RM/
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# [22:21] <jarek__> I can change values of existing properties, but I can't add or delete properties
# [22:21] <jarek__> seems pretty useless to me
# [22:22] <Pomax> I would imagine it's still useful for preveting scrips from polluting your objects,
# [22:22] <Pomax> but yeah, it doesn't seem to effect a fully locked object.
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# [22:24] <jarek__> so in order to lock the object completely I would have to set "writable" value in descriptor to false for each property?
# [22:25] <jarek__> I think it should be possible to implement lock() and unlock() methods that do this
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# [22:25] <Pomax> looks like it
# [22:26] <Pomax> never implement unlock =)
# [22:26] <Pomax> lock has to be intentional. once locked, that's it. if you can call unlock, then so can everyone else.
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# [22:28] <paul_irish> man the Initiator column in chrome devtools is so damn hot.
# [22:28] <paul_irish> to know that an image was requested because of (new Image()).src = ... rather than in the markup
# [22:28] <paul_irish> so great
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# [22:29] <Pomax> that does sound delicious
# [22:29] <jarek__> paul_irish: do you know when WebKit inspector will allow for normal debugging of Web Wokers?
# [22:29] <paul_irish> i swear it happened within the last 4mo
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# [22:30] <paul_irish> before then it was the faux iframe hack
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# [22:30] <jarek__> paul_irish: the way how it's done currently is not very convinient
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# [22:30] <paul_irish> orly
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# [22:30] <jarek__> paul_irish: e.g. it's impossible to use console.log (or any other console object)
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# [22:33] <jarek__> s/object/method
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# [22:37] <paul_irish> yeah no console in workers. that's a separate bug. and coming.
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# [22:39] <paul_irish> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=63383
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# [22:41] <jarek__> Firefox has the same problem: http://code.google.com/p/fbug/issues/detail?id=2154
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# [22:42] <jarek__> though I haven't checked the new developer tools from Aurora
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# [22:42] <martndemus> moral question: invest some time in polyfills/shims and other for ie6/7/8 to make it look a bit prettier, but slower. or just leave it at it looks ok, but not really pretty.
# [22:42] * logan1 is now known as Serrata
# [22:43] <paul_irish> http://www.schemehostport.com/2011/12/timing-attacks-on-css-shaders.html
# [22:43] <paul_irish> oh dam
# [22:43] <paul_irish> martndemus: the latter.
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# [22:45] <martndemus> this particular use case is my own blog/portfolio
# [22:47] <jarek__> martndemus: I wouldn't invest my time into learning hacks that will be obsolete in ~1 year
# [22:47] <jarek__> actually, IE6 and IE7 are already obsolete
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# [22:48] <martndemus> yeah i figured ie6/7 werent the problem
# [22:48] <jarek__> martndemus: and IE8 is good enough to render overall layout of the page
# [22:48] <martndemus> yeah, its missing text-shadow, gradient and border-radius though
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# [22:49] <martndemus> gradient might be a easy fix though
# [22:49] <jarek__> martndemus: there are IE filters for linear gradients, but they are buggy
# [22:49] <martndemus> yeah
# [22:49] <martndemus> i actually have them in my css
# [22:50] <martndemus> but it doesnt seem to work
# [22:50] <jarek__> http://www.colorzilla.com/gradient-editor/
# [22:50] <martndemus> and they got produced from that site ;)
# [22:51] <martndemus> i think ill just add a .oldie class to the html element
# [22:51] <jarek__> if you are targeting IE9 and higher then I would use SVG backgrounds instead
# [22:51] <jarek__> as there are WYSIWYG tools for editing SVG gradients
# [22:52] <martndemus> well
# [22:52] <martndemus> the gradients are really simple
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# [22:52] <tsenart> s
# [22:52] <jarek__> martndemus: but once you have the gradient defined in your stylesheets, it's a pain to modify it later
# [22:53] <martndemus> i'm pretty sure i dont have to
# [22:53] <jarek__> martndemus: with SVG gradients you just open the file in Inkscape and tweak some nodes
# [22:53] <martndemus> btw
# [22:54] <martndemus> how would one fix rgba in ie8?
# [22:54] <jarek__> martndemus: you don't fix it, you just provide alternative value
# [22:55] <jarek__> e.g. color: rgb(0,0,0); rgba(0,0,0,0.5);
# [22:55] <jarek__> IE will pick the first value, modern browsers will use the second one
# [22:55] <paul_irish> :wq
# [22:55] <paul_irish> whoops
# [22:55] <martndemus> i knew that one
# [22:55] <tw2113> IE simply ignores the ones it doesn't recognize
# [22:56] <martndemus> lawl vim
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# [23:02] <daleharvey> anyone familiar with handlebars?
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# [23:05] <daleharvey> I want call a object method of one of the objects thats in the render context, "{{obj.toString()}}" where var obj = {toString: function() { return "foo"; } for example
# [23:08] <Pomax> lol
# [23:08] <Pomax> and here I thought http://pomax.nihongoresources.com/pages/templating/ was a ridiculous idea
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# [23:44] <LumberCartel> Hello. I'm trying to embed MP4/OGG videos in an HTML page, and it works in all the web browsers I have except for Internet Explorer 8 (it's okay in Internet Explorer 9 with a little crashing, but I don't care about that). To make it work in Internet Explorer 8 I need to use the following document, but that leads to a 404 Not found page. Is there a new address for this document?
# [23:44] <LumberCartel> The part I need to add to my "video" tag is this: xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/video
# [23:44] <LumberCartel> Thanks in advance.
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# [23:58] <djazz> <3 HTML5
# [23:58] <djazz> http://youtu.be/48MAtjq6WaU?hd=1
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# Session Close: Sun Dec 04 00:00:00 2011

The end :)