/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-12-04 / end

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1. # Session Start: Sun Dec 04 00:00:00 2011
2. # Session Ident: #html5
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24. # [00:17] <jarek> djazz: looks interesting
25. # [00:18] <jarek> djazz: is it using Webkit-gtk?
26. # [00:18] <djazz> jarek: no, just google chrome
27. # [00:18] <djazz> http://djazz.mine.nu:8010/
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29. # [00:19] <jarek> djazz: nice widgets, are they based on some framework?
30. # [00:20] <djazz> jarek: what widgets? main menu, popup? panels?
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32. # [00:20] <jarek> djazz: yeah, all of them
33. # [00:20] <djazz> i made 'em
34. # [00:20] <djazz> they are in nice standalone .js and .css files
35. # [00:21] <jarek> djazz: but you don't have to tables for layout out the widgets
36. # [00:21] <jarek> djazz: you could use flexbox
37. # [00:21] <Pomax> irc - where people forget that if you talk to only one person, you don't have to constantly use their name.
38. # [00:22] <djazz> jarek: i did use flexbox before but i ran into rendering bugs
39. # [00:22] <jarek> Pomax: unless the channel is crawded
40. # [00:22] <jarek> djazz: here is my app that uses flexbox for widgets: http://type-fu.com/
41. # [00:23] <jarek> (works only on Chrome)
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43. # [00:23] <jarek> I was thinking about using widget toolkit such as Sproutcore or jQuery UI, but they are all too slow
44. # [00:24] <djazz> jarek: i'm using javascript to resize the stuff
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46. # [00:25] <jarek> djazz: and how did you implement filesystem access?
47. # [00:25] <djazz> jarek: node.js + xhr
48. # [00:25] <jarek> djazz: node.js has awful API for transfersing the filesystem
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52. # [00:28] * jarek is reading WebJCS code
53. # [00:28] <djazz> ^^
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55. # [00:31] <jarek> djazz: I like the idea for using "global" instead of "window"
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57. # [00:31] <djazz> xD
58. # [00:31] <jarek> this is more consistent with server-side
59. # [00:31] <djazz> making that clear
60. # [00:31] <djazz> hm?
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63. # [00:32] <jarek> in Node.js global object is called "global", in client-side it's called "window", in Web Worker it's called "self"
64. # [00:32] <jarek> I prefer using "global" everywhere
65. # [00:32] <djazz> or "this" in global scope
66. # [00:32] <djazz> i think i use global.document.... everywhere xD
67. # [00:33] <djazz> instead of just document
68. # [00:33] <jarek> djazz: in strict mode "this" will return undefined if used in global scope
69. # [00:33] <djazz> hmm
70. # [00:33] <yamahaalex37> can i make an url that generates an email to the address in the url?
71. # [00:36] <djazz> jarek: found anything else interesting? :P
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76. # [00:40] <jarek__> djazz: I don't see any prototypes or constructors in your code
77. # [00:40] <djazz> so?
78. # [00:41] <djazz> i use direct, simple functions
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81. # [00:43] <jarek__> djazz: this way it's harder abstract things away when you notice code repetition
82. # [00:43] <jarek__> djazz: but you are probably right, the best pattern is the one you feel most comfortable with
83. # [00:43] <jarek__> s/harder/harder to
84. # [00:44] <djazz> i try to get functionality first, then i can look back and fix
85. # [00:44] <jarek__> djazz: do you know about array.forEach() method? It could be used instead of loops like this: for(var i=0, l = data.length; i < l; i+=1)
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87. # [00:45] <djazz> i know
88. # [00:45] <djazz> is it faster?
89. # [00:46] <jarek__> ahh, you are actually using it
90. # [00:46] <jarek__> djazz: I'm not sure if it's significantly faster than regular loops, but could be more readable in some cases
91. # [00:46] * GoOz`aw is now known as GoOz
92. # [00:46] <djazz> ye for arraybuffer to string
93. # [00:46] <jarek__> I'm not a big fan of this pattern:
94. # [00:46] <jarek__> data = (data || defaultJCSini).split("\n");
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97. # [00:47] <jarek__> because if data is e.g. empty string then it will evaluate to false
98. # [00:47] <djazz> yes, exactly
99. # [00:47] <djazz> it chooses the most truthy
100. # [00:48] <djazz> if the xhr fetch failed, load default ini
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103. # [00:50] <djazz> jarek__: https://plus.google.com/u/0/107569713951933401034
104. # [00:50] <jarek__> the menu is generated from JS object, neat
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111. # [00:53] <djazz> jarek__: saw the colorpicker?
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116. # [00:55] <djazz> jarek__: what u think of my canvas scrollbars?
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119. # [00:56] <jarek_____> I'm playing with the color picker right now
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122. # [00:57] <djazz> jarek_____: ah, u downloaded it? :)
123. # [00:57] <djazz> well, do you have any tilesets?
124. # [00:59] <jarek_____> djazz: in the launcher, you have:
125. # [00:59] <jarek_____> gnome-terminal --command "node ./server.js"
126. # [00:59] <djazz> yes?
127. # [00:59] <jarek_____> why not just "node ./server.js"
128. # [00:59] <jarek_____> when someone launches the .sh file, he will do this from console, right?
129. # [01:00] <djazz> well, to be on the safe side :P
130. # [01:00] <djazz> i dont want a ghost running in bg
131. # [01:00] <djazz> i gtg, sleeptime
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149. # [01:52] <JonathanNeal> ie is super weird. <pre>foo<span>foo\nbar</span></pre> ... pre.innerHTML = 'foo<span>foo\nbar</span>'; span.innerHTML = 'foobar';
150. # [01:53] <Pomax> that is correct.
151. # [01:53] <Pomax> innerHTML has no newlines.
152. # [01:54] <Pomax> innerText will give you the newlines.
153. # [01:55] <Pomax> this is especially important when it comes to grabbing source as .innerSomething from scripts etc.
154. # [01:55] <Pomax> since HTML doesn't 'do' newlines, there is no rule that says they have to be preserved as DOM text content
155. # [01:55] <JonathanNeal> innerText reports the same thing, Pomax, no \n
156. # [01:56] <Pomax> now you made me curious. to the testing
157. # [01:56] <JonathanNeal> sure, ie<9
158. # [01:56] <JonathanNeal> i mean, when we talk "ie" that's usually what we mean, but just in case i needed to clarify.
159. # [01:57] <Pomax> this is literal \n, or newline?
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161. # [01:59] <JonathanNeal> no, a newline.
162. # [01:59] <JonathanNeal> if you have ie, i would be happy to share the html file of the result with you.
163. # [02:01] <JonathanNeal> another weird in IE is that in a selection range, approximately every 80 characters IE will add \r\n to the htmlText.
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166. # [02:04] <Pomax> interesting.
167. # [02:04] <Pomax> I'm using http://jsfiddle.net/5A56w/1/
168. # [02:04] <JonathanNeal> i'm using http://sandbox.thewikies.com/temp-ie-is-weird/
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170. # [02:09] <JonathanNeal> Pomax: in your test, I get "textwithnewlines"
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172. # [02:09] <Pomax> yeah, same here
173. # [02:10] <Pomax> it does some funky stripping =x
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175. # [02:15] <JonathanNeal> It is rather interesting. And the almost arbitrary addition of newlines in selections gives me equal pause.
176. # [02:15] <Pomax> that kind of sounds like some kind of misplaced RFC rule
177. # [02:16] <Pomax> isn't 80 characters the standard terminal line length?
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180. # [02:27] <JonathanNeal> yea, but it isn't 80 characters, and it isn't 80 characters or less, it sometimes goes beyond or under.
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197. # [02:51] <Serrata> I am having the worst troubles with weechat
198. # [02:51] <paul_irish> :(
199. # [02:52] <paul_irish> i use ZNC on a linux box. then i use limechat locally. playback when i reconnect. its nice.
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202. # [02:53] <Serrata> are you familiar with how to use weechat any?
203. # [02:53] <paul_irish> nope
204. # [02:53] <Serrata> i'm trying to change the color of the infobar so it doesn't cover up the text
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215. # [03:01] <JonathanNeal> bb after star trek :)
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231. # [03:03] <CodeRarity> what's the point of the <section> tag? it looks just like a div to me...
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234. # [03:03] <paul_irish> inorite
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236. # [03:04] <tw2113> some people get the semantics, some people couldn't care less
237. # [03:04] <Serrata> FOUND IT
238. # [03:05] <tw2113> yay! you found my dignity
239. # [03:05] <Serrata> ./set weechat.bar.status.color_bg black
240. # [03:05] <Serrata> huh? oh whoops
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242. # [03:05] <Serrata> I thought the section tag was for breaking down further inside divs?
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246. # [03:08] <CodeRarity> Serrata, how is it any better at that than the <div> tag?
247. # [03:10] <Serrata> it's not for styling
248. # [03:10] <Serrata> it's for breaking down information about the document if i understand correctly
249. # [03:10] <Serrata> but then again
250. # [03:10] <Serrata> I'm pretty clueless about it too
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255. # [03:26] <thatryan> what are you guys working on tonight? anything cool?
256. # [03:27] <tw2113> ha
257. # [03:27] <tw2113> work
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266. # [03:51] <JonathanNeal> back
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268. # [03:51] <JonathanNeal> Pomax: so did you discover any reason why IE is so wack about newlines?
269. # [03:55] <Pomax> annoyingly, no
270. # [03:56] <Pomax> and ie doesn't do textContent either
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273. # [03:59] <LumberCartel> IE is wacky about a lot of things. =(
274. # [03:59] <tw2113> we'd have nothing to hate if it wasn't
275. # [03:59] <LumberCartel> For instance, support for the <video> tag is non-existent in version 8 and earlier.
276. # [03:59] * LumberCartel laughs.
277. # [04:00] <LumberCartel> Apparently there's a way to get support for the "video" tag in IE 8, and possibly also IE 7, by adding the "xmlns" attribute to the video tag like this: <video xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/video">
278. # [04:01] <LumberCartel> Unfortunately it seems that the W3C has decided that this file is not longer needed and returns a 404 Not found page. =(
279. # [04:01] <LumberCartel> Anyone know where to get a copy of this file? Internet Archive doesn't seem to have it either.
280. # [04:01] <tw2113> just give those browsers a flash player fallback
281. # [04:01] * LumberCartel asked earlier but suddenly had to leave.
282. # [04:03] <LumberCartel> Unfortunately there are a bunch of corporate environments that don't allow Flash to be installed. I'd rather use pure HTML 5 if possible, and I wouldn't give a wit about IE 8 (or any version of IE for that matter) except that some of the users who the decision-makers listen to and who want it are refusing to upgrade to IE 9 or use any other web browser.
283. # [04:03] <LumberCartel> What Flash players do you recommend?
284. # [04:03] <LumberCartel> ...for playing videos, that is?
285. # [04:04] <tw2113> iframe embed?
286. # [04:04] <tw2113> IE9 = upgrade to at least Vista
287. # [04:05] <tw2113> IE10 = 7+
288. # [04:05] <LumberCartel> No, not Vista. I thought the world got rid of it (with about as much enthusiasm as getting rid of Saddam H. in Iraq).
289. # [04:05] <daleharvey> heh, found a fun bug in chrome (as opposed to the not so fun one from last night)
290. # [04:06] <tw2113> just saying to get people past IE8, they'll have to upgrade the whole OS
291. # [04:06] <tw2113> past XP
292. # [04:06] <tw2113> or is it passed?
293. # [04:09] <LumberCartel> Lots of folks are still using XP. It seems that people dreadded Vista so much that they either went back to XP or switched to Mac (Vista was a wonderful gift for Apple to help them boost up their sales). After Windows 7 seemed to be much better than Vista for a while people seemed okay with upgrading, but I still find that there are many people who insist on staying with XP until their PC dies.
294. # [04:12] <thatryan> man my brain is having trouble thinking mobile first for this project im rebuilding
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297. # [04:24] <LumberCartel> thatryan: What challenges are you wrestling with?
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299. # [04:32] <thatryan> how to think in reverse, at least for me heh. showing minimal stuff and gradually adding content rather than subtracting it, trouble visualizing how it would work to build the mobile first
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302. # [04:35] <tw2113> thatryan plan for minimalist first
303. # [04:35] <tw2113> what content is essential
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306. # [04:44] <LumberCartel> thatryan: Simple menus first will probably help the user too.
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312. # [05:15] <JonathanNeal> Pomax: the difficult thing is that we CAN get the right linefeeds, but we can't know when to use what way to get them.
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314. # [05:18] <JonathanNeal> IF the linefeeds can be read correctly, then they will report them in htmlText, text, innerHTML, and innerText.
315. # [05:20] <JonathanNeal> IF the linefeeds can not be read correctly, then they will report them randomly throughout htmlText.
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324. # [05:27] <JonathanNeal> okay ... IF htmlText and text have equal linefeeds then the linefeeds are valid.
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327. # [05:38] <JonathanNeal> AHA! if we dig into the textnodes, the nodeValue DOES have the correct line returns.
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384. # [08:30] <gerbera> hey guys
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386. # [08:31] * LumberCartel greets gerbera.
387. # [08:32] <gerbera> can I ask a quick question
388. # [08:32] <LumberCartel> That's up to you.
389. # [08:32] <LumberCartel> (Don't ask to ask, just ask.)
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391. # [08:32] * mike5w3c_ is now known as mike5w3c
392. # [08:33] <gerbera> http://html5boilerplate.com/docs/The-markup/
393. # [08:33] <gerbera> scroll down to the google analytics script, whats the advantage to loading is asynchronously?
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401. # [08:51] <grantg> heh
402. # [08:51] <grantg> deviceorientation in broken in firefox
403. # [08:52] <grantg> on macbook pros at least
404. # [08:52] <grantg> works in chrome :/
405. # [08:53] <grantg> *is broken
406. # [08:53] <LumberCartel> How's it work in Opera?
407. # [08:53] <grantg> Haven't checked in opera
408. # [08:54] <grantg> I only checked firefox and chrome while making a demo video - http://www.youtube.com/embed/DPB4whCsZfU
409. # [08:54] <LumberCartel> I just noticed that Opera has a neat new feature now -- right-click on a web page, then choose "Open with" and you get a list of all the other web browsers installed in the system to choose from.
410. # [08:54] <grantg> The gaps in audio piss me off still with the Web Audio API issues and bugs
411. # [08:54] * GoOz`aw is now known as GoOz
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414. # [08:57] <grantg> lol gyro sync with the emulation
415. # [08:58] <grantg> audio + video + gyro input sync = lol google chrome is gonna have something stutter
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417. # [09:00] <grantg> let me check opera
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420. # [09:00] <grantg> I know MozOrientation worked until it was removed somewhere around firefox 6
421. # [09:00] <LumberCartel> Firefox version numbers have been rising fast, as if their whole versioning system has been taking Viagra. I wonder if it will ever slow down? I suspect they're just trying to play catch-up with IE version numbers.
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423. # [09:01] <grantg> Not sure about their end game
424. # [09:01] <LumberCartel> There's probably more than one end-game, but my money's definitely on Mozilla rather than Microsoft for the long-haul.
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426. # [09:01] <grantg> Seems like deviceorientation is missing in opera 11
427. # [09:03] <LumberCartel> Hmm. You can pop into Opera's Help Menu and choose "Report a site problem..." and they'll probably add the feature in by the next minor version release or two. I've found that problems I report there get fixed fairly promptly.
428. # [09:04] <grantg> I wonder how bad the delay will be with the NES Zapper emulation in some browsers
429. # [09:04] <grantg> due to callback blockages causing pile ups in the event queue
430. # [09:05] <LumberCartel> Queues getting blocked up is never good.
431. # [09:05] <grantg> The part is where JS locks up in Opera when resizing the browser window.
432. # [09:06] <LumberCartel> That's horrible.
433. # [09:06] <grantg> You get horrible audio lockup then
434. # [09:06] * LumberCartel laughs because we both assessed it as "horrible."
435. # [09:07] <grantg> Because of the custom flash swf required for audio in Opera (Opera just "can't" do it without a proper way to output raw PCM realtime from JS). :/
436. # [09:07] <grantg> the swf calls to js get locked up
437. # [09:07] <LumberCartel> I assume you're using the most recent version of Flash on the client-side?
438. # [09:07] <grantg> things go hywire
439. # [09:08] <LumberCartel> Adobe updates it frequently.
440. # [09:08] <grantg> Flash is only for audio in Opera, yeah
441. # [09:08] <grantg> It's browser specific in the glitch
442. # [09:08] <LumberCartel> Yuck.
443. # [09:08] <grantg> Or "feature"
444. # [09:09] <LumberCartel> Only Microsoft is allowed to label bugs as features. It's called "The Redmond Syndrome."
445. # [09:09] <grantg> Like how firefox and chrome throttle setInterval timers to 1000 millisecond intervals when the tab is hidden
446. # [09:09] <grantg> which also destroys the audio output when the tab is hidden
447. # [09:09] <grantg> Not gonna webworker a timer and postMessage proxy the setInterval call.
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449. # [09:10] <grantg> That's f'ing hacky
450. # [09:10] <grantg> (webworkers don't get the throttle)
451. # [09:10] <grantg> oh god, I don't want to go on about this
452. # [09:10] <LumberCartel> Heheh.
453. # [09:11] <grantg> Like the fact setInterval has accuracy issues as well
454. # [09:12] <grantg> So you can't actually do audio synth based off the setInterval calls
455. # [09:12] <grantg> (You need an audio api heuristic instead)
456. # [09:14] <LumberCartel> (That seems like a lot of work.)
457. # [09:14] <grantg> Hence the separate lib that spun out of this project
458. # [09:15] <LumberCartel> Wow.
459. # [09:16] <LumberCartel> How many lines of code did that grow to, by the way?
460. # [09:16] <grantg> the lib - https://github.com/grantgalitz/XAudioJS
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462. # [09:16] <grantg> The GBC emulator - https://github.com/grantgalitz/GameBoy-Online/blob/master/js/GameBoyCore.js
463. # [09:17] <grantg> Sigh, I've posted this on IRC too many times. :P
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465. # [09:17] <LumberCartel> Is that a full GameBoy emulator written in JavaScript?
466. # [09:18] <grantg> It's like 10x more than it should be, but the code had to be manually inlined and the loops had to be manually unrolled, with manual LICM
467. # [09:18] <grantg> for js perf
468. # [09:18] <grantg> yeah, in js
469. # [09:18] <LumberCartel> Awesome!
470. # [09:18] <LumberCartel> I suspect the Commodore 64 would be more difficult to emulate with its quirky 1541 floppy drives and tape readers, SID chips, etc.
471. # [09:19] <grantg> Never touched a C64
472. # [09:19] <grantg> Could re-use the NES CPU emulation code for when I get back to coding this js stuff some more
473. # [09:19] <grantg> (Both the C64 and NES CPUs are based off the 6502)
474. # [09:20] <LumberCartel> Well, they're awesome little machines too. I found an archive of more than 25,000 games for the damned thing, and people are still making games for the Commodore 64 today -- the last four or five were released this year (mostly made in Germany if I recall correctly).
475. # [09:20] <LumberCartel> Yeah, the 6502 CPU had some interesting features.
476. # [09:20] <grantg> Heh, they should upgrade the the DS homebrew scene
477. # [09:20] <grantg> And show off against those bitching about CPU limitations
478. # [09:21] <LumberCartel> We own two Nintendo DSi units (one for each of our daughters). I'm interested in the homebrew scene, actually.
479. # [09:21] <grantg> heh
480. # [09:21] <grantg> The DS uses an ARM like pretty much every mobile phone
481. # [09:22] <grantg> At least you have multiplication instructions
482. # [09:22] <grantg> the 6502 does NOT have multiplication ops
483. # [09:22] <LumberCartel> I heard that Apple went to great lengths to shut off the built-in Java ByteCode executor that comes with the ARM processor in its phones.
484. # [09:22] <grantg> you had to maually do that with bit shifts + adding + subtracting in assembly
485. # [09:22] <LumberCartel> LDA, STA, LDX, STX, LDY, STY, blah blah blah, etc.
486. # [09:23] <LumberCartel> I remember those days.
487. # [09:23] <grantg> Yeah, the iPhone's CPU comes with a Java byte code unit that natively executes the instructions
488. # [09:23] <LumberCartel> I was grade 6 when I started getting pretty good at 6502 ASM, and inserting NOP codes into code that was doing weird copy protection checks.
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490. # [09:24] <grantg> so a JVM on the iPhone wouldn't need to dynarec
491. # [09:24] <LumberCartel> Steve Jobs should have left that enabled so there could be more apps for it.
492. # [09:24] <grantg> since most instructions would be able to run natively already
493. # [09:24] * Quits: jacine (~jacine@drupal.org/user/88931/view) (Quit: buh bye :))
494. # [09:24] <gerbera> does anyone use the html5 boilerplate?
495. # [09:24] <grantg> not sure
496. # [09:24] <LumberCartel> I just started using HTML 5 today to insert a video on a web site.
497. # [09:24] <grantg> nice
498. # [09:24] <LumberCartel> I've not heard of the HTML 5 boilerplate.
499. # [09:25] <grantg> ping paul_irish about it. :P
500. # [09:25] <LumberCartel> Well, it was nice until I tested it in Internet Exploder, and then I found out that I needed to have a fallback Flash player.
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502. # [09:25] <grantg> Ah, the Internet Exploder
503. # [09:25] <grantg> Quite classy indeed
504. # [09:26] <grantg> Some fans of IE 6 that I personally know have said "if it's not broke, don't fix it"
505. # [09:26] <LumberCartel> Classy, if you think being a gateway to hidden spyware installations is a good idea.
506. # [09:26] <LumberCartel> Well, I think they don't know what's broken.
507. # [09:26] <grantg> Well, it is "broke," it's just that people spend a whole lot of timing fixing it with CSS hacks in every damn website
508. # [09:26] <LumberCartel> It's full of features. (Remember the Redmond Syndrome?)
509. # [09:27] <LumberCartel> I said "f*** it" with menus on one of my web sites (because I really don't care if the Internet Exploder users can't get menus): http://www.lumbercartel.ca/
510. # [09:27] <grantg> The same fans still using Windows 2000 conveniently :P
511. # [09:27] <LumberCartel> For other sites that I get paid to build, I make sure IE users are not left out (except for the few who want to make the same statement).
512. # [09:28] <LumberCartel> Wow. They should really upgrade to XP as soon as possible.
513. # [09:28] * LumberCartel smirks.
514. # [09:28] <grantg> "Slowpoke: Hey guys, Windows XP just came out"
515. # [09:28] <grantg> During the launch day of Windows 8
516. # [09:28] <LumberCartel> Heheh.
517. # [09:29] <LumberCartel> Go get your free XP driver downloads today, before they run out!
518. # [09:29] <grantg> Any word on macbooks switching to ARM processors?
519. # [09:29] <grantg> I keep hearing that, and I wouldn't be surprised at all
520. # [09:29] <LumberCartel> My word, are they switching? (That's obviously not the word you were looking for.)
521. # [09:29] <grantg> ARM is great for mobile devices
522. # [09:29] <grantg> *ARM from Intel
523. # [09:29] <LumberCartel> Maybe the next generation will be called LEG.
524. # [09:29] <LumberCartel> ...and up go the costs.
525. # [09:30] <LumberCartel> ...like a marketer on Viagra.
526. # [09:30] * LumberCartel snickers.
527. # [09:30] <grantg> *to ARM processors from Intel processors
528. # [09:30] <LumberCartel> "That's not a banana in my pocket, my wallet is happy to see you!"
529. # [09:30] * grantg waits for the legacy x86 assembly used for video and audio decoding and encoding to collapse in many legacy apps
530. # [09:31] <grantg> when people try to port their apps
531. # [09:31] <grantg> they're gonna have to deal with ARM assembly
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534. # [09:31] <LumberCartel> I've never even looked into ARM assembly. What's it like compared to say, 6502 vs. 8088 ASM?
535. # [09:32] <grantg> Apple is definitely gonna pull another "Rosetta" with the switch
536. # [09:32] <grantg> ARM is RISC
537. # [09:32] <LumberCartel> Apple's probably going to go back to where they were unless they can get another Steve Jobs (highly unlikely),.
538. # [09:32] <LumberCartel> s/,\./\./
539. # [09:33] <grantg> It's better than x86 in design
540. # [09:33] <LumberCartel> There are loads of folks out there who know RISC quite well, so that shouldn't be a big problem.
541. # [09:33] <grantg> Not a bunch of legacy bull strung together since 1978
542. # [09:34] <grantg> Register - Register
543. # [09:34] <grantg> The 6502 had horrible cpu bugs fyi
544. # [09:35] <grantg> and the stack limited to 0x1XX space
545. # [09:35] <grantg> Its bugs put the FF0F bug to shame
546. # [09:36] <grantg> Like indirect jumps from anything ending in 0xFF
547. # [09:37] <grantg> It pulls the wrong address
548. # [09:37] <grantg> see http://nesdev.parodius.com/6502bugs.txt
549. # [09:37] <LumberCartel> Yeah, I vaguely remember that stuff.
550. # [09:41] <grantg> nn
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577. # [10:19] <Hello> yo peoples why its not supported use width in td or table how now i can make the width of table ?
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580. # [10:25] <Hello> ?????????????????????????????,
581. # [10:25] <Hello> ????????????????????????
582. # [10:25] <Hello> ????????
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592. # [10:43] <Hello> hekkiäa
593. # [10:43] <Hello> any asshole here?
594. # [10:43] <Hello> fu ck
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623. # [11:35] <pertrai1> Where can I find a good interactive CSS3 reference site. I saw one before that had links on the left for attributes but can't remember the URL?
624. # [11:36] * Joins: dissipate_ (~steve@ip174-68-75-212.sd.sd.cox.net)
625. # [11:37] <dr0id> instacss.com
626. # [11:37] <pertrai1> PERFECT. Thank you
627. # [11:38] <dr0id> and there's css-creations.com for fun stuff
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630. # [11:40] <pertrai1> Great stuff. Thank you for help
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639. # [11:52] <Orbitrix> so who here is fat?
640. # [11:55] <dr0id> you
641. # [11:56] <Orbitrix> NOPE
642. # [11:56] <Orbitrix> must be u
643. # [11:56] <Orbitrix> FATTY
644. # [11:56] <Orbitrix> gross
645. # [11:56] <Orbitrix> get on a treadmill u ugly weirdo
646. # [11:56] <Orbitrix> FREAK
647. # [11:56] <dr0id> nou
648. # [11:56] <Orbitrix> NOU
649. # [11:56] <Orbitrix> :'(
650. # [11:56] <Orbitrix> ur hurting my feelings
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652. # [11:56] * Orbitrix slaps dr0id's titties around a bit with a large boner
653. # [11:57] <Orbitrix> so u guys know How To Meet Ladies x 5??
654. # [11:57] <Orbitrix> is that the deal in here?
655. # [11:58] <Orbitrix> so hows it done gentalmen?
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657. # [11:58] <Orbitrix> show me How To Meet Ladies x 5
658. # [11:58] <Orbitrix> :D?
659. # [11:58] <Orbitrix> :(?
660. # [11:58] <Orbitrix> ur all a buncha idiots
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1279. # [19:02] <jarek> why it's not possible to select text that was added with "content: 'blah'" CSS property?
1280. # [19:02] <jarek> is there a way around?
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1282. # [19:07] <jarek> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/Getting_Started/Content
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1284. # [19:07] <jarek> "Content specified in a stylesheet does not become part of the DOM."
1285. # [19:07] <jarek> but this breaks user experience, user will not be able to copy generated text
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1370. # [21:03] <subone> How do I check the available size of localStorage for the current browser?
1371. # [21:04] <subone> ah looks like theres a QUOTA_EXCEEDED_ERR
1372. # [21:07] <paul_irish> http://updates.html5rocks.com/2011/11/Quota-Management-API-Fast-Facts
1373. # [21:07] <paul_irish> only works in chrome
1374. # [21:08] <paul_irish> tbh im not sure its wired up for localstorage
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1377. # [21:11] <subone> solocio, what happens if you go over in other browsers
1378. # [21:11] <solocio> ?
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1381. # [21:14] <subone> solocio, sorry, dont know how i did that
1382. # [21:15] <subone> solocio, Oh, i think I typed "So" and then hit tab by habit
1383. # [21:16] <subone> paul_irish, so what happens when you go over quota in other browsers? I suppose I could rule of thumb it to 5MB, but older browsers dont support even that much
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1400. # [21:47] <paul_irish> subone: wrap your setItems in a trycatch and then be aware of when the exception is thrown
1401. # [21:47] <subone> Oh, you meant your link only works with chrome
1402. # [21:47] <subone> thats fine i can just do thr try catch
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1422. # [22:02] <jarek> is it possible to display the same DOM node in two different places?
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1424. # [22:05] <jarek> when I do
1425. # [22:05] <jarek> placeA.appendChild(myElement);
1426. # [22:05] <jarek> and then
1427. # [22:05] <jarek> placeB.appendChild(myElement);
1428. # [22:05] <jarek> then the element will show up only in placeB
1429. # [22:06] <jarek> I don't want to use element.cloneNode because this would complicate things
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1431. # [22:09] <johnbravo> How long does it take to learn html5??
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1433. # [22:11] <paul_irish> depends how much you wanna learn
1434. # [22:12] <paul_irish> jarek: not really, except for -moz-element()
1435. # [22:12] <johnbravo> Everything???
1436. # [22:12] <paul_irish> johnbravo: i dont think anyone has learned "every" part of html5
1437. # [22:12] <johnbravo> Ok well enough to make awesome epic websites?
1438. # [22:13] <paul_irish> :)
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1440. # [22:13] <paul_irish> it takes some work, but there are good resources that help. one that i work on is html5rocks.com .. also diveintohtml5.info is a good place to start
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1443. # [22:16] <jarek> paul_irish: I wish we could have something like OSNews.com, but for HTML5
1444. # [22:16] <paul_irish> im unfamiliar with osnews
1445. # [22:17] <jarek> paul_irish: thereis no place on the Web that would focus on browser news
1446. # [22:17] <paul_irish> jarek: did you see my feeds collection?
1447. # [22:18] <paul_irish> ?g paul irish frontend standards feeds
1448. # [22:18] <bot-t> paul_irish, Web browser, frontend and standards feeds to follow « Paul Irish - http://paulirish.com/2011/web-browser-frontend-and-standards-feeds-to-follow/
1449. # [22:18] <jarek> paul_irish: that's the problem, I have to follow 20 websites in order to stay up to date
1450. # [22:18] <paul_irish> yup.
1451. # [22:18] <paul_irish> staying up to date on the open web platform is absurdly difficult.
1452. # [22:19] <paul_irish> even watching Planet Mozilla is wayyyy too much
1453. # [22:20] <jarek> Mozilla Planet has too many off-topic posts so I stopped following it
1454. # [22:21] <paul_irish> yup.
1455. # [22:22] <jarek> and Ajaxian is dead ;(
1456. # [22:23] <paul_irish> ajaxian didnt serve that role anyway
1457. # [22:23] <paul_irish> jarek: you should start publishin This Week in Browsers
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1459. # [22:33] <djazz> jarek: user-select is now on everything except the chat in the chat panel
1460. # [22:33] <djazz> thought that users might want to copy paste from there
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1468. # [22:41] <lerker> Hi, i'm new to the chat. I am curious how people are using html5. The backward compatabilty issues seems like a dealbreaker.
1469. # [22:42] <tw2113> lerker it's called polyfills for when needed
1470. # [22:43] <tw2113> and some people just forego support in dino-browsers completely
1471. # [22:44] <tw2113> or provide an alternate path
1472. # [22:45] <lerker> I do dev for a design agency. We occasionally get clients who read about HTML5 in some business journal and think it is going to solve all their problems
1473. # [22:46] <tw2113> look them in the face and tell them they're wrong on the "solve all issues" part
1474. # [22:46] <lerker> then when I tell them we still have to develop for older browsers they choke
1475. # [22:46] <tw2113> if the client gives you the go-ahead to leave old browser users in the dust...run with it
1476. # [22:47] <tw2113> BUT the smart thing to do is look at their analytics to see who their general browser market is
1477. # [22:47] <tw2113> if they have 20% still on IE6, you may have to support it
1478. # [22:47] <lerker> Does that exists? Are there any function - say ecommerce -- sites out there that are HTML5?
1479. # [22:48] <tw2113> *shrug* i don't look at a lot of ecommerce source code
1480. # [22:49] <tw2113> chances are they'd use the semantic tags at best
1481. # [22:49] <tw2113> which can be supported back to IE6 with a touch of javascript
1482. # [22:49] <lerker> But even if over 80% of your users are on modern browsers, do youstill want to throw the other 20% under the bus?
1483. # [22:49] <tw2113> you'd have to discuss that with the client
1484. # [22:50] <tw2113> the html5 tags are the easiest thing to get cross browser support with
1485. # [22:50] <tw2113> the API stuff, not so much
1486. # [22:52] <lerker> IDK. I suppose if the client was some kind of cutting edge Game or Band, then yeah, then develop for cutting edge browsers. But how many clients are there like that? Most clients are business targeting the widest range of potential customers possible.
1487. # [22:52] <tw2113> most likely
1488. # [22:52] <tw2113> this is all you need for the cross-browser html5 tag support http://code.google.com/p/html5shiv/
1489. # [22:54] <lerker> Is the google shim for the semantic tags, or does it include the cool stuff like video, geolocation, drag-n-drop, forms etc.?
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1493. # [22:55] <tw2113> it shows dino-browsers that "hey! these foreign tags....i can style them!"
1494. # [22:55] <tw2113> instead of default behavior of ignoring completely
1495. # [22:56] <tw2113> and there is no amount of javascript that will ADD the advanced features stuff to a browser
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1499. # [22:56] <tw2113> it can detect when the support is there, but it can't add to it
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1502. # [22:58] <lerker> Thanks tw2113. The shim helps. I've been playing around with HTML5 and it is pretty darn cool. And yes, I have one client that still insists their site work in IE6 : (
1503. # [22:59] <lerker> Hey, has anyone here tried building a drupal template in HTML5/CSS3?
1504. # [23:00] <tw2113> me personally, if i'm going to offend less than 100 people with my site not working, i'll just cope and deal
1505. # [23:00] <tw2113> ping jacine
1506. # [23:00] <jacine> tw2113: sup?
1507. # [23:00] <tw2113> read 2 lines up
1508. # [23:01] <jacine> oh
1509. # [23:01] <tw2113> ;)
1510. # [23:01] <jacine> lerker: The issue for IE6 is when JS is disabled though. Your client is asking for that too?
1511. # [23:02] <jacine> Anyway, I've done it. It's not hard.
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1513. # [23:02] <tw2113> i pinged mostly for the drupal template + html5/css3
1514. # [23:03] <lerker> No, the JS isn't the problem usually it's the css hacks
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1516. # [23:03] <jacine> well, there are base themes in contrib that you could look at that do the doctype and some of the templates for you. It's very simple template overrides, really.
1517. # [23:04] <tw2113> best tip i can give regarding the css half...it does NOT need to be pixel perfect in all 50 browsers
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1519. # [23:04] <jacine> Yeah, I don't fret over that, and if it's required i use a conditional stylesheet. That's just how I roll. Your mileage may vary.
1520. # [23:05] <tw2113> i fell in love with the conditional classes on the <html>
1521. # [23:05] <jacine> I've never liked that, but lots of people do.
1522. # [23:05] <tw2113> we all have our methods :D
1523. # [23:05] <lerker> tw2113 one of the first questions I ask new clients is what kind of OS/browser their CEO has ;)
1524. # [23:05] <tw2113> not a bad move
1525. # [23:06] <jacine> Anyway, gotta get back to patch reviewing. Here's a theme to look at for HTML5 stuff: http://drupal.org/project/adaptivetheme
1526. # [23:06] <tw2113> thanks dear :D
1527. # [23:06] <jacine> sure. there's also this one: http://drupal.org/project/html5_base (theme) and http://drupal.org/project/html5_tools (module)
1528. # [23:06] <lerker> Adaptive theme looks great. i'll have to give it a spin
1529. # [23:06] <jacine> :)
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1556. # [23:57] <thatryan> is there something for css similar to jsperf?
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1559. # Session Close: Mon Dec 05 00:00:00 2011

The end :)