/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-12-07 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Dec 07 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:00] <grantg> Anyhow, a faster and better js NES emulator wouldn't hurt. :P
# [00:01] <jarek> yeah, that would be fun
# [00:01] <grantg> Want me to add you to it?
# [00:02] <grantg> The thing is... stuff has to be manually inlined
# [00:02] <grantg> that's how we get performance in jaegermonkey
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# [00:03] <grantg> Hence why https://github.com/grantgalitz/CannedNES/blob/master/js/NES6502.js is already over 1000 lines
# [00:03] * GoOz`aw is now known as GoOz
# [00:03] <jarek> grantg: add me to add where?
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# [00:03] <grantg> the github project
# [00:04] <jarek> thanks, but I'm rather busy now
# [00:04] <grantg> ok. :P
# [00:04] <jarek> but I would be more than happy to test it when it's finished
# [00:04] <grantg> heh
# [00:04] <jarek> grantg: so you are developing it on Firefox primarly?
# [00:05] <grantg> jarek: no
# [00:05] <grantg> Just optimizing it with a textbook method
# [00:05] <grantg> It helps the V8 engine in chrome too to manually inline
# [00:05] <grantg> not as much, but it does help
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# [00:06] <grantg> V8 still has to box its internally inlined representation
# [00:06] <grantg> so manually doing it is a little faster
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# [00:06] <grantg> It also helps to do manual LICM
# [00:07] <grantg> A big thing jaegermonkey cannot really do
# [00:07] <jarek> grantg: I have no idea what iternal inline representation and LICM are :(
# [00:07] <grantg> inline: Take the function call and inline its code
# [00:08] <grantg> Copy and paste the function call into the parent function
# [00:08] <grantg> LICM: loop invariant code motion
# [00:08] <grantg> i.e. optimizing out some variables in loops
# [00:09] <grantg> JM can't restructure loops well in JM
# [00:09] <grantg> heh
# [00:09] <jarek> grantg: have you thought about using your knowledge for something that could be actually useful? :P
# [00:09] <grantg> heh
# [00:09] <jarek> grantg: I mean another NES emualator would be fun
# [00:09] <grantg> There's also a GBA emulator proj
# [00:10] <grantg> Not gonna do SNES until after these two...
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# [00:10] <jarek> grantg: but you could be fameous if you had e.g. find a way to have fast editor component in JS
# [00:10] <jarek> grantg: or widget toolkit
# [00:10] <grantg> I mean, look at BSNES
# [00:10] <yamahaalex> does anyone know a gallery that displays albums in a lightbox, with photos again in a lightbox?
# [00:11] <grantg> jarek: Or a JVM in js would be nice
# [00:11] <grantg> J2ME probably
# [00:11] <jarek> grantg: https://github.com/nurv/BicaVM
# [00:11] <grantg> LOL
# [00:11] <grantg> damn...
# [00:12] <grantg> heh, no JIT compilation?
# [00:13] <jarek> grantg: I guess no, considering the fact that it's done on top of JS
# [00:13] <grantg> JS engines won't optimize it fully unless you make the code native first
# [00:13] <grantg> Convert the ops to their js representations
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# [00:14] <jarek> grantg: I personally don't see the need for further optimization of JS engines
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# [00:14] <jarek> grantg: what really slows down the JS applications are things like DOM and Canvas
# [00:15] <grantg> JS is still slow
# [00:15] <jarek> grantg: it can do milions of operations per second
# [00:15] <grantg> Try to emulate a 10 MIPS CPU in js and it fries your comp
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# [00:16] <jarek> grantg: it's probably the fastest scripting language ever made
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# [00:16] <grantg> jarek: It could be faster
# [00:16] <BrianBlakely> border-radius not clipping off img content
# [00:16] <BrianBlakely> Solution?
# [00:16] <grantg> If they made it more like C# or Java
# [00:16] <jarek> grantg: it could, but the different would not be noticeable in real-world apps
# [00:17] <grantg> eh
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# [00:17] <grantg> video/audio decoders are still horribly slow in js
# [00:17] <jarek> BrianBlakely: have you tried applying border radius to wrapper instead of img?
# [00:17] <BrianBlakely> jarek: That is exactly the scenario, actually
# [00:17] <grantg> Because JS has the "Number" type for math
# [00:18] <grantg> needs ints, etc.
# [00:18] <BrianBlakely> jarek: I was surprised to see it wasn't clipping the image
# [00:18] <grantg> rather than just "Number"
# [00:18] <grantg> which does double float math
# [00:18] <grantg> and boxed bitwise limited to 32 bit
# [00:18] <jarek> BrianBlakely: afair there was a workaround for this, but I can't recall it
# [00:19] <BrianBlakely> jarek: Same here, haha
# [00:19] <grantg> "Number" == double in many cases in js, so it's way inappropriate for intensive stuff
# [00:19] <jarek> grantg: Number from JavaScript = float from C
# [00:20] <grantg> jarek: the 64-bit precision one
# [00:20] <jarek> grantg: I'm not really into the low level programming, where double float numbers could be useful?
# [00:20] <grantg> and bitwise ops are inefficient due to the unboxing and reboxing of the converted mantissa
# [00:21] <grantg> jarek: They're doubles, for added accuracy
# [00:21] <grantg> So 32-bit ints can be stored in them
# [00:21] <jarek> grantg: I cant think of any scripting language that would have doubles
# [00:21] <grantg> without precision loss on the lower digits
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# [00:22] <grantg> mantissa in 32-bit floats is 20 something odd bits
# [00:22] <grantg> the rest is exponent and sign
# [00:22] <grantg> mantissa holds the actual data
# [00:22] <grantg> doubles allow ints-in-float
# [00:23] <grantg> without loss
# [00:23] <jarek> "The type Number is a set of values representing numbers. In ECMAScript, the set of values represents the double-precision 64-bit format IEEE 754 values"
# [00:23] <grantg> yeah
# [00:23] <grantg> 64-bit
# [00:23] <grantg> double
# [00:23] <grantg> floats are 32-bit in classic systems
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# [00:23] <grantg> double floats are classically 64-bit
# [00:24] <jarek> heh, I didn't know that
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# [00:24] <grantg> **double-precision**
# [00:24] <jarek> I guess that's why 0.1 + 0.2 !== 0.3
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# [00:25] <grantg> Utilizing the FPU for all your math though is bad
# [00:25] <grantg> Hence why js needs to be overhauled
# [00:27] <moo-_-> grantg: or maybe you can just stop writing emulators in JS and do them in Google Native Client :)
# [00:27] <grantg> moo-_-: But NaCl is just a box for actual apps
# [00:27] <grantg> CPU-specific
# [00:28] <moo-_-> grantg: nope
# [00:28] <moo-_-> they are working on LLVM backend
# [00:28] <moo-_-> their own "bytecode" implementation
# [00:28] <moo-_-> or whatever it will be called
# [00:28] <moo-_-> so it could run on ARM direcly
# [00:28] <grantg> a.k.a. Java 2.0
# [00:28] <moo-_-> yes
# [00:28] <jarek> moo-_-: but it's very likely that Google will kill NaCl in near future
# [00:28] <moo-_-> jarek: how so?
# [00:29] <grantg> I already have my GBC emulator ported to java
# [00:29] <grantg> Why port it to NaCl, where it's limited to certain versions of chrome?
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# [00:29] <jarek> moo-_-: no other browser vendor is interested in supporting it
# [00:29] <grantg> I don't know people with NaCl plugins installed
# [00:29] <moo-_-> jarek: very good point
# [00:29] <moo-_-> and until it would run iOS it wouldn't be interesting for anyone :(
# [00:30] <moo-_-> javascript
# [00:30] <moo-_-> the promise of portability
# [00:30] <moo-_-> :)
# [00:30] <grantg> Speaking of java
# [00:30] <grantg> I should really finish that proj off too
# [00:30] <grantg> It's like 95% done
# [00:30] <grantg> https://github.com/grantgalitz/MarsGB/tree/master/MarsGB
# [00:31] <moo-_-> I wonder how Dart implementation which does *not* compile down to JS will worko
# [00:31] <moo-_-> will Google introduce yet another bytecode?
# [00:31] <grantg> So then you can have a good Java GBC emulator on android and your desktop
# [00:31] <moo-_-> or do they run "native Dart" directly from source like JS?
# [00:31] <grantg> moo-_-: Dart sounds like Google crying for a replacement to JS
# [00:31] <grantg> I don't blame them
# [00:31] <moo-_-> well
# [00:31] <moo-_-> I can see some reasons for that
# [00:32] <grantg> Same with NaCl
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# [00:32] <grantg> I would really like to see a dart VM replace the JS VMs
# [00:33] <grantg> Solves language problems
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# [00:33] <moo-_-> grantg: do you believe Ecmascript commitee, or whatever it is, can get decent low level things fixed?
# [00:33] <grantg> of js
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# [00:33] <moo-_-> I see typed arrays were officially introduced in ES 5.1
# [00:33] <moo-_-> released with opera
# [00:33] <moo-_-> today
# [00:33] <grantg> moo-_-: It's too late
# [00:33] * GoOz is now known as GoOz`aw
# [00:33] <moo-_-> :<
# [00:34] <grantg> They need better language support of integers
# [00:34] <grantg> Which JS itself just complicates
# [00:34] <moo-_-> grantg: I think you would be the correct person to go to tell them that :)
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# [00:35] <grantg> For the mean time, I strongly recommend them to implement boxed integers
# [00:35] <moo-_-> grantg: https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
# [00:35] <grantg> So that you can use these special objects for math ops instead
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# [00:35] <BrianBlakely> jarek: Ended up using :after with a border-image — not perfect...
# [00:36] <grantg> So you can specifically work on the APU
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# [00:36] <grantg> And yes, just like Java's boxed integers
# [00:36] <grantg> :P
# [00:37] <moo-_-> hmm this is interesting flame war https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2011-November/017872.html
# [00:38] <grantg> JS still needs better access to the APU
# [00:38] <grantg> boxed integers
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# [00:38] <grantg> We can have that
# [00:38] <grantg> hence, boxed
# [00:39] <grantg> It would be an object that we could do math ops on
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# [00:39] <grantg> and the math ops would be of only a specific type
# [00:39] <grantg> uint/int 8/16/32/64 etc.
# [00:40] <grantg> JUST like typed arrays
# [00:40] <grantg> but not in array form
# [00:40] <grantg> That way we can at least try/catch for fallback support for older browsers
# [00:40] <grantg> rather than requiring a new lang
# [00:40] <moo-_-> grantg: http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=harmony:binary_data_discussion&s=integers
# [00:41] <grantg> exactly
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# [00:42] <grantg> but not just 64-bit
# [00:43] <moo-_-> yeah
# [00:43] <moo-_-> I think it's still "waiting for proposal" state
# [00:43] <moo-_-> I am not sure how ecmascript process works
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# [00:47] <grantg> Anyhow
# [00:47] <grantg> gtg
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# [01:52] <tw2113> paul_irish can i pick your brain a moment?
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# [02:00] <paul_irish> tw2113: ask away. im in emails but check the channel now and again
# [02:01] <tw2113> would it be theoretically possible to delay various ad loading by wrapping their script call within an if statement checking for a dom element from the end of the page being loaded?
# [02:01] <paul_irish> depends on the ad script
# [02:02] <paul_irish> lots of people have worked on optimizing other peopels's ad scripts
# [02:02] <paul_irish> general best practice is load it into an iframe lazily
# [02:02] <tw2113> hmm
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# [02:03] <tw2113> might be one of those i need to test with on a dev server
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# [02:10] <yamahaalex> my site has no styling in IE
# [02:10] <yamahaalex> but a pop up for activex/scripts comes up, and if allowed, the style loads
# [02:10] <yamahaalex> is this the only way?
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# [02:14] <paul_irish> http://websocketstest.com/ws/stats
# [02:14] <paul_irish> neat ^
# [02:14] <yamahaalex> node.js better
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# [02:28] <paul_irish> >_>
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# [02:44] <dilvie> 'Sup Paul? =)
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# [02:55] <yamahaalex37> i think google webfonts has way too many requests to be usable anymore
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# [02:58] <tw2113> i still prefer local over google-provided
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# [05:10] <ryanseddon> well structured clones in postMessage is a black box http://www.thecssninja.com/demo/sclones/test/ <-- gets some interesting results, bugs galore
# [05:11] <ryanseddon> My next article: "postMessage and structured clones make me want to stab people in the face"
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# [05:33] <captcadaver> hi
# [05:34] <captcadaver> i'm having supreme trouble with developing a simple app where users trace over the outline of an image draw on an html5 canvas
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# [05:34] <captcadaver> i want to give a user points when they draw on the outline
# [05:35] <captcadaver> for some reason, wherever i draw on the image leads to giving the user points
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# [05:35] <captcadaver> even though i'm checking if the pixels within the window are black. and if i've been over this pixel before (2d bool array)
# [05:35] <captcadaver> any ideas?
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# [05:46] <captcadaver> wow
# [05:46] <captcadaver> so, new meme for you
# [05:47] <captcadaver> scumbag cyberduck: uploads the latest version of your project / PLACES LATEST VERSION FOLDER A LEVEL BELOW PRODUCTION VERSION, WHICH IS RUNNING ON SERVER
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# [08:12] <bitwise_> im trying to get a div to fade in with css3 animations. anyone know why this wouldnt fade back in? (it fades out with jQuery) http://jsfiddle.net/Na4he/27/
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# [08:34] <bitwise_> figured it out. had to use @-webkit-keyframes rather than @keyframes
# [08:40] <tw2113> oh vendor prefixes
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# [09:20] <yamahaalex37> why is html, body {height: 100%} giving me a screen taller than my browser?! (scrollbars)
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# [09:41] <edwinjm> yamahaalex37: because you also have padding?
# [09:43] <yamahaalex37> edwinjm, i dont have nay v padding
# [09:43] <yamahaalex37> except maybe 5px
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# [09:45] <yamahaalex> http://www.webdevout.net/test?020&raw
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# [16:36] <squeakytoy> hm, are names like ids, global over the whole dom?
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# [16:54] <JakeA> squeakytoy: Yep
# [16:55] <JakeA> well, wait… what do you mean global?
# [16:55] <squeakytoy> the same rules as id
# [16:55] <JakeA> No then
# [16:55] <squeakytoy> it should be used as a unique global identifier
# [16:56] <squeakytoy> whats the difference? usage wise?
# [16:56] <JakeA> No, eg it's commonplace to have multiple elements of the same name for <input type="radio">
# [16:56] <JakeA> it's how they're grouped
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# [16:57] <JakeA> Use 'name' to indicate how it will be serialised when its parent form is submitted
# [16:57] <JakeA> Eg, <input name="whatever" value="hello"> <input name="whatever" value="world"> will be submitted at whatever=hello&whatever=world
# [16:58] <JakeA> submitted as*
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# [16:59] <JakeA> You can have 2 forms containing elements with the same name, you can have 1 form containing multiple elements of the same name
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# [17:11] <zeppo> question for you guys
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# [17:12] <zeppo> i have this image for a venue that I need to convert to an interactive state
# [17:12] <zeppo> http://i42.tinypic.com/2gvjz7t.png
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# [17:13] <zeppo> would you use canvas or a png
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# [17:15] <Moonies> I would use that as a flight pillow
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# [17:44] <BrianBlakely> zeppo: Neither, SVG
# [17:45] <BrianBlakely> zeppo: Use Raphaël
# [17:45] <BrianBlakely> Works in IE6+ too
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# [17:56] <Jon47> zeppo, what kind of interactivity do you want? event triggers for each seat?
# [17:56] <Jon47> or each section..
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# [18:45] <divya> http://thehtml5quiz.com/ I could name only 65 elms in 5 mins :(
# [18:45] <Jackneill> hi can you help me? <article style="margin: 20px;"><h1>Egészséges életmód tanácsok</h1><h2>Hogyan éljünk egészséges életmódot?</h2> why i got my h1 smaller than my h2? :/
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# [18:46] * danheberden fires divya
# [18:46] <Conexion> divya: Ya mean, there are more elements than html, head, title, body, p, and div? :p
# [18:47] <divya> :D
# [18:47] <divya> I missed 44!
# [18:48] <divya> and easy ones at that. pff
# [18:48] <Conexion> Did you miss <blink> ?
# [18:48] <Conexion> That's an easy one to miss
# [18:48] <Jon47> oh p i forgot that one
# [18:48] <Jackneill> hi can you help me? <article style="margin: 20px;"><h1>sth</h1><h2>sth2</h2> why i got my h1 smaller than my h2? :/
# [18:49] <Conexion> Jackneill: Is there a reason you're using inline styling?
# [18:49] <Jackneill> conexion?
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# [18:49] <Jackneill> inline styleing? never heard about it
# [18:49] <thatryan> Jackneill: style = "blah blah"
# [18:49] <thatryan> = no
# [18:49] <Jackneill> oh sorry i have bad english
# [18:49] <Jackneill> so article class="sth"><h1...?
# [18:50] <Conexion> No worries - Using 'style="margin: 20px;"' is usually considered bad practice
# [18:50] <thatryan> no problem, what is the css associated with h1, h2
# [18:50] <Jackneill> why inline-styleing is bad?
# [18:50] <Jackneill> i dont know thatryan :/
# [18:50] <thatryan> Jackneill: you want to keep structure and presentation separate, so html in the html and css in a css file
# [18:51] <Jackneill> yes
# [18:51] <Jackneill> ok sorry
# [18:51] <divya> hahah Conexion
# [18:51] <Jackneill> and what is the css associated with h1, h2..?
# [18:51] <thatryan> lol depends... do you happen to have a link?
# [18:51] <danheberden> divya i could only do 50 :(
# [18:51] <Jackneill> link ?
# [18:52] <divya> oops
# [18:52] <thatryan> Jackneill: to your code
# [18:52] <Jackneill> sorry i am using localhost,
# [18:52] <thatryan> site
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# [18:52] <Jackneill> buti paste my code
# [18:52] <JakeA> 67
# [18:52] <thatryan> http://jsfiddle.net/
# [18:52] <thatryan> paste there
# [18:52] <JakeA> missed canvas, gahhhh
# [18:52] <danheberden> omg how did i not think of those
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# [18:53] <Conexion> Jackneill: you could just do h1 {font-size: 3.2em} h2 {font-size: 1.4em} (replace the 3.2 and 1.4em with the measurement of your choice
# [18:54] <Jackneill> thatryan: http://jsfiddle.net/etbSp/
# [18:54] <Jackneill> conexion: ok thanks:/
# [18:56] <thatryan> your h tags are the same size because they are all set to be 100%, according to what you pasted in
# [18:56] <Jackneill> but not same, the h1 smaller than h2
# [18:57] <Jackneill> where i set it to same size?
# [18:57] <thatryan> not in what you pasted...
# [18:57] <Conexion> Jackneill: They are the same size in jsfiddle
# [18:57] <Jackneill> i get the same in firefox and chrome, in opera the h1 tag is good
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# [18:58] <Jackneill> only in jsfiddle
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# [19:01] <thatryan> Jackneill: you need to assign sizes to the h1 and h2 in your css
# [19:01] * tw2113 busts a move
# [19:02] <Jackneill> thatryan: then h tags are deprecated in this case isnt it?
# [19:02] <tw2113> h1-6 are depreciated?
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# [19:02] <Jackneill> if i have to assign sizes to them
# [19:03] <tw2113> never heard that idea before
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# [19:07] <Jackneill> thatryan: i cant change my h1's font-size
# [19:08] <tw2113> why not
# [19:08] <thatryan> Jackneill: why not?
# [19:08] <thatryan> lol
# [19:08] <thatryan> h1{font-size:2em;}
# [19:09] <thatryan> ...
# [19:09] <Jackneill> but when i did with class it didnt
# [19:09] <Jackneill> sorry
# [19:10] <thatryan> what class?
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# [19:14] <Jackneill> thatryan: class="..."
# [19:14] <thatryan> update the jsfiddle
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# [19:15] <Jackneill> thatryan: now working with directly h1 {..}
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# [19:27] <JonathanNeal> where's a simple example of dropping a file from my desktop into the web browser?
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# [19:33] <moo-_-> JonathanNeal: http://developer.mozilla.org/ is good source for HTML5 learning material
# [19:33] <moo-_-> JonathanNeal: also check links in the channel topic
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# [19:33] <JonathanNeal> moo-_-: thanks, i also found http://www.appelsiini.net/2009/10/html5-drag-and-drop-multiple-file-upload
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# [19:55] <BrianBlakely> Hmm, current implementation of Fullscreen API on iframes is just a little too buggy for production. It should just act like the window is resizing, but that isn't the case...
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# [19:57] <BrianBlakely> At least not all the time
# [19:57] <simenbrekken> Can anyone recommend a library for profiling javascript on iOS Safari?
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# [20:01] <shawn_dones> anyone familiar with jquery mobile?
# [20:01] <martndemus> shawn_dones: try /join #jquery
# [20:01] <shawn_dones> martndemus: thanks :)
# [20:01] <martndemus> np :)
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# [20:03] <BrianBlakely> CSS Animations for Transforms must be the most egregious example of the hassle created by vendor-prefixing. 100 lines of code for a single animation!
# [20:03] <divya> yes
# [20:03] <divya> it sucks
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# [20:05] <xonecas> howdy folks! o/
# [20:05] <BrianBlakely> hiya xonecas
# [20:05] <xonecas> How's your morning so far?
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# [20:06] <martndemus> just a question, are the implementations of different browser that different that they all need their own prefix?
# [20:06] <xonecas> martndemus: yes
# [20:06] <martndemus> can't they ditch their own prefixes and take a unified prefix for non-standard css?
# [20:06] <BrianBlakely> martndemus: In the minority of cases...
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# [20:07] <xonecas> when the specs are first implemented they come from the same spec at different revisions, so they end up being very different (the css gradients are a perfect example of this since the syntax changed in the spec)
# [20:07] <BrianBlakely> martndemus: That seems like the same thing as no prefix at all
# [20:07] <xonecas> but you are right, browser prefixes are imho a bad thing
# [20:08] <BrianBlakely> CSS parsers generally ignore incorrect syntax, so you could just use unprefixed properties with various values.
# [20:08] <xonecas> with the short development cycle of browsers now, it would be more appropriate to keep the unprefixed in sync with the latest specs
# [20:08] <BrianBlakely> That's what I'm doing in a sense for the new cubic-bezier curves (>1 and <0 values)
# [20:09] <xonecas> BrianBlakely: and that doesn't affect performace, or generate weirdness?
# [20:09] <martndemus> well, if we keep up using prefixes
# [20:09] <martndemus> it could get highely likely
# [20:10] <martndemus> that well be using -ms- on a lot of new features for a long time :(
# [20:10] <BrianBlakely> xonecas: Nope, it goes like this — -webkit-transition: 1s cubic-bezier(1,1,1,1); -webkit-transition: 1s cubic-bezier(1.5,1.5,1.5,1.5)
# [20:11] <BrianBlakely> …for example
# [20:11] <BrianBlakely> The second one is ignored by Chrome 15, then Canary just overwrites the first value with the second while parsing the style
# [20:12] <Conexion> divya: I just did thehtml5quiz.com/ - Getting them all in 5 minutes is difficult! I don't know if it is possible on the first try. Luckily the ones I didn't get to weren't too embarrassing (dfn, kbd, ruby, etc...) - Missing br and iframe was kind of bad though :p
# [20:19] <martndemus> managed to get 60 :(
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# [20:19] <paul_irish> zeldman just called me a fucking punk. :) http://twatlr.com/thread/144494298434510849
# [20:20] <divya> hehehe yeah me too
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# [20:22] <xonecas> BrianBlakely: that's cool, i never tought of doing things like that. really useful
# [20:22] <danheberden> divya why did you call paul_irish a fucking punnk?
# [20:22] <divya> lolol
# [20:22] <divya> I was referring to Conexion
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# [20:22] <Conexion> xD
# [20:23] <divya> zeldman has shown he has no manners.
# [20:23] <Conexion> paul_irish: Some people are just jealous they aren't you!
# [20:23] <BrianBlakely> haha, holy shit
# [20:23] <Ms2ger> 63 \o/
# [20:23] <xonecas> paul_irish: looks like zeldman woke up on the wrong side of the web ^^
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# [20:23] <JakeA> fight to the death!
# [20:24] <BrianBlakely> I've never seen a rant like that before in any industry discussion… even on working group mailing lists!
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# [20:27] <divya> Ms2ger: i got 65!! I BEAT YOU
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# [20:33] <martndemus> i got 89, with cheating :( im so bad
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# [20:34] <xonecas> no cheating and in conference call = 48 :-(
# [20:34] <BrianBlakely> Ah, I love Peter Beverloo's Chromium and WebKit updates
# [20:35] <BrianBlakely> xonecas: BTW, before I forget, are you a Galaxy Nexus owner yet?
# [20:35] <xonecas> BrianBlakely: that's a very elusive phone
# [20:35] <BrianBlakely> Shucks
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# [20:36] <xonecas> I know, I'm so eager to get some test run on one, I'm straight up harassing my friends at android eheh
# [20:36] <xonecas> *some tests
# [20:36] <xonecas> BrianBlakely: besides the reported width and height is there anything else you'd like to see tested?
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# [20:39] <xonecas> I just read high performance javascript by @slicknet, can anyone recommend more great books like this? #lazyweb
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# [20:39] <BrianBlakely> xonecas: Not really, but thanks for asking. It seems most everything around feature support is documented. In Gingerbread and below, there is an issue with flexboxes within flexboxes. Hopefully that's fixed, as Honeycomb brought a lot of stability...
# [20:39] <BrianBlakely> xonecas: Oh, native-ish functionality like camera and file uploading would be cool
# [20:40] <BrianBlakely> It's was a pity that those features have been restricted to niche Android tablets for so long
# [20:40] <xonecas> Cool, yeah I have a test page to run on new devices that reports on such things, I'll add device checking to it.
# [20:41] <xonecas> I really should clean up those tests and put it on github. Maybe I can get to it this weekend
# [20:41] <cheilmann> doing wild things
# [20:41] <cheilmann> https://img.skitch.com/20111207-p6cmh85sk4ntf7iuxft7n89b48.jpg
# [20:42] <cheilmann> seems like b.style.webkitBackfaceVisibility is borked in chrome :(
# [20:42] <xonecas> cheilmann: #unrelated those ffx devtools are looking good :-)
# [20:43] <cheilmann> xonecas: cheers
# [20:43] <cheilmann> I cracked the whip a lot :)
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# [20:43] <xonecas> ha! And the legion of web devs thanks you!
# [20:44] <martndemus> are we talking about the one in the nightly build?
# [20:44] <BrianBlakely> cheilmann: Really? Is this not working as it should? http://www.webkit.org/blog-files/3d-transforms/morphing-cubes.html
# [20:44] <xonecas> martndemus: yes sir
# [20:44] <BrianBlakely> Looks OK in m15...
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# [20:44] <martndemus> well im on the nightly on ubuntu, and it looks cool
# [20:44] <martndemus> but it is missing tons of features :(
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# [20:46] <cheilmann> BrianBlakely: they are cheating: if (backfacesVisible)
# [20:46] <cheilmann> addClassName(shape, 'backfaces');
# [20:46] <cheilmann> and do it in CSS, not in direct manipulation
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# [20:46] <cheilmann> so I will do that, too :)
# [20:47] <BrianBlakely> cheilmann: Oh-ho, I misunderstood. You meant the JS API specifically is borked.
# [20:48] <martndemus> well fuck
# [20:48] <martndemus> my layout broke somehow in FF :(
# [20:51] <cheilmann> yeah the rest is fine
# [20:51] <cheilmann> http://thewebrocks.com/demos/cuberollovers/
# [20:51] <cheilmann> :)
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# [20:52] <josefrichter> guys, is there a simple library which will tell me the closest point from a list based on current gps coordinates, please?
# [20:52] <martndemus> (google maps?)
# [20:52] <paul_irish> hey josefrichter
# [20:52] <josefrichter> paul_irish hey paul :-)
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# [20:52] <BrianBlakely> cheilmann: WAAAAOOOO … that is fun
# [20:52] <paul_irish> :)
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# [20:53] <BrianBlakely> The promise of CSS3… to create the Dashboard Widget preferences effect
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# [20:53] <danheberden> josefrichter do you mean just ocmparing a list of coordinates with one coordinate to see which one is closest?
# [20:53] <josefrichter> martndemus I mean I have list of 10 locations (cinemas) with their gps coords and want to check which one is the closest. no map view needed...
# [20:53] <martndemus> oh
# [20:53] <josefrichter> danheberden exactly. see ^
# [20:54] <martndemus> i thought, you get a coordinate, and you wanted to know which big city was closest
# [20:54] <danheberden> loop though the points? (x1-x2)+(y1-y2) - take the smallest value
# [20:55] <josefrichter> danheberden well, my education in navigation tells me this is not the way :-)
# [20:55] <BrianBlakely> josefrichter: If you want actual units (km/mi): http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong.html
# [20:55] <martndemus> i think some pythagorian calcualtions could help too
# [20:55] <josefrichter> BrianBlakely no. just pick the closest one :-)
# [20:55] <BrianBlakely> I love how JavaScript is included alongside the math. That's so standard!
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# [20:56] <BrianBlakely> josefrichter: Oh. Pythagorean Theory that ho then
# [20:56] <josefrichter> danheberden but actually you might be right. it's not 100% precise but I guess it should be precise enough if you don't mind plus/minus a few meters or so...
# [20:56] <martndemus> Math.sqrt(deltaX,deltaY) is how you propably would likelyy calculate the distance from the coord to another coord
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# [20:57] <josefrichter> I meant orthodrome, loxodrome and shit like that...
# [20:57] <martndemus> s/Math.sqrt(deltaX,deltaY)/Math.sqrt(deltaX^2,deltaY^2)/
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# [20:58] <josefrichter> martndemus eeh? :-o
# [20:59] <shawn_dones> paul_irish: Man, you really got Zeldman riled up
# [20:59] <josefrichter> paul_irish so when are you coming to Olomouc again? :-)
# [20:59] <martndemus> josefrichter: sorry my english is going to fail on this but ill give it another shot
# [21:00] <Ms2ger> martndemus, also, + instead of ,
# [21:00] <BrianBlakely> josefrichter: Is that a place in Skyrim?
# [21:00] <BrianBlakely> :P
# [21:00] <josefrichter> martndemus I think I just got it :-)
# [21:00] <martndemus> cool =D
# [21:00] <josefrichter> BrianBlakely wtf is skyrim :-)
# [21:01] <josefrichter> BrianBlakely I know what's rimjob. but not sky rim. something similar?
# [21:01] <martndemus> skyrim is that game that is going to make 50% off my class fail this semester
# [21:01] <BrianBlakely> martndemus: haha
# [21:01] <Pomax> josefrichter: the correct way involves knowing the shape of the earth. GPS coordinate (x+1,y) may not necessarily be closer than (x-2,y) due to elevation differences
# [21:02] <BrianBlakely> I have stayed far away
# [21:02] <BrianBlakely> (though I did get Zelda…mmm)
# [21:02] <martndemus> im in a class of 25 geniune nerds =D
# [21:03] <josefrichter> Pomax yeah but when I don't need millimeter preciseness, maybe I can ignore that?
# [21:03] <Pomax> not really
# [21:03] <Pomax> it manifests at the several hundred meters level, too.
# [21:03] <Pomax> hills and mountains are nasty that way
# [21:03] <Pomax> but if you pretend the coordinate space is a perfect sphere, then the computation is a simple matter of computing arcs and comparing arc length
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# [21:04] <martndemus> omg mountains, didnt think of those (but hey, I think i live in the netherlands for a reason =D)
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# [21:05] <josefrichter> Pomax this is for cinemas within a city. So hopefully no mountain problem unless you are in Nepal or something :D
# [21:05] <Pomax> san fran?
# [21:05] <Pomax> seattle?
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# [21:06] <Pomax> 10s of meters of steep drops in one direction vs no elevation change in another.
# [21:06] <josefrichter> are there MOUNTAINS in san francisco? :-)
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# [21:07] <Pomax> just 30 degree hills over several blocks.
# [21:07] <Pomax> so... I guess "yeah, kind of" =)
# [21:07] <Pomax> North Vancouver is built on a mountain side
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# [21:07] <josefrichter> anyway, this app is for czech republic, central europe. no real mountains here :-)
# [21:07] <xonecas> if you ever walked around san fran, the answer is yes, they are mountains
# [21:07] <Pomax> I'm sure there ar eplenty of other "big" cities like that too
# [21:08] <Pomax> if you're restricting it to the czech replublic, things get much easier
# [21:08] <Pomax> you can simply use national map coordinates
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# [21:13] <martndemus> Just a quick question: im trying to place two blocks of text next to each other, that sounded simple to me, but when I start using percentages for a adaptive/mobile layout, it doesnt appear like it should in all the different browsers
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# [21:14] <martndemus> i got it pixelperfext in chrome
# [21:14] <martndemus> but its ends up not fitting the 'wrapper' in ff
# [21:15] <martndemus> in opera its ends up less wide then the wrapper :(
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# [21:16] <martndemus> so the question is: how would one try to fix that?
# [21:16] <martndemus> (working code: http://martndemus.nl/dev )
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# [21:17] <BrianBlakely> Seattle is built into the side of an incline
# [21:19] <BrianBlakely> In fact, they had to rebuild the city because sewage was bursting back out of toilets
# [21:19] <BrianBlakely> …that, and the city burned completely to the ground due to a glue fire...
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# [21:20] <cheilmann> martndemus: you have padding and borders and all kind of stuff on there
# [21:20] <cheilmann> I'd do the layout elements without any of that
# [21:21] <cheilmann> then you won't have rounding errors
# [21:23] <martndemus> but how will i get padding without padding? :(
# [21:23] <xonecas> martndemus: what chris said, or you can get fancy and use flexbox
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# [21:23] <xonecas> but then you loose some browsers
# [21:23] <martndemus> are those browsers prefixed IE?
# [21:23] <xonecas> you can use padding on the elements contained by the layout boxes, but not on the boxes themselves
# [21:23] <xonecas> martndemus: not exclusevly ie, older browsers in general
# [21:23] <martndemus> so i would have to wrap each box in another one?
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# [21:24] <divya> BrianBlakely: so I heard on the underground tour :P
# [21:24] <xonecas> kind of, where you need to pad, wrap your text with a container and pad the container
# [21:25] <martndemus> awesome
# [21:25] <martndemus> gotta try that
# [21:25] <bitwise_> cheilmann: with your demo, im having trouble rotating with content other than images enclosed. is that a known issue you think?
# [21:26] <BrianBlakely> divya: That tour is amazing! (but I hear it depends on your luck with the guide)
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# [21:27] <divya> yeah i had good luck!
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# [21:28] <BrianBlakely> coooool
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# [21:28] <cheilmann> bitwise_: what do you mean? You put other content in there?
# [21:29] <cheilmann> martndemus: that's how HTML works - you create some elements for the layout but then you create others to give the text meaning
# [21:30] <cheilmann> so DIV for columns but section and article for the contents
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# [21:32] <xonecas> paul_irish: is there any performance tests for Modernizr?
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# [21:32] <xonecas> as in how fast it executes, and maybe per test?
# [21:32] <martndemus> cheilmann: thanks!
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# [21:37] <bitwise_> cheilmann: yeah, instead of the img's
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# [21:49] <helpcrypto> hi
# [21:49] <xonecas> o/
# [21:49] <helpcrypto> iiuc, html5 has an object/api for storing files locally, ram i ight?
# [21:50] <helpcrypto> *am i right?
# [21:50] <martndemus> if you mean storing pages/assets
# [21:50] <martndemus> then thats appcache
# [21:50] <xonecas> are you referring to appchache or the file api?
# [21:50] <helpcrypto> File
# [21:51] <helpcrypto> or, at least, thats what i think
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# [21:51] <helpcrypto> can File be used to store files locally, like cookies?
# [21:51] <xonecas> then yes it has, but it's not implemented everywhere, you will need shiv's
# [21:51] <helpcrypto> shivs?
# [21:51] <martndemus> shims/polyfills
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# [21:52] <helpcrypto> ...
# [21:52] <martndemus> things that emulate a standard function
# [21:52] <helpcrypto> like if(ie)...
# [21:52] <helpcrypto> ah, ok
# [21:52] <helpcrypto> thats english :P
# [21:52] <helpcrypto> XD
# [21:52] <Conexion> http://paulirish.com/2011/the-history-of-the-html5-shiv/
# [21:52] <helpcrypto> are files intended to be used like cookies?
# [21:53] <martndemus> what kind of files are theres?
# [21:53] <martndemus> images? text documents?
# [21:53] <helpcrypto> that api, the file api, i mean
# [21:53] <martndemus> (i have no experience with file api yet)
# [21:53] <xonecas> http://www.w3.org/TR/FileAPI/
# [21:54] <helpcrypto> xonecas: already there
# [21:54] <xonecas> helpcrypto: also: http://caniuse.com/#search=File%20api
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# [21:55] <helpcrypto> this is the reason why im asking: i want to keep some form data between requests. afaik, there 4 ways: cookies, server, js and html5 file
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# [21:55] <cheilmann> bitwise_: not that I know. maybe it is because your elements have no dimensions?
# [21:55] <helpcrypto> im trying to avoid cookies, ause information is sensitive and i dont want other sites read it
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# [21:55] <cheilmann> localstorage?
# [21:55] <martndemus> helpcrypto: there are things like websql, indexdb and window.name (?) to store form data
# [21:55] <helpcrypto> server option doesnt like me very much, cause information to be stored is "big enough"
# [21:56] <martndemus> and i forgot localstorage
# [21:56] <helpcrypto> thats the reason i come here :)
# [21:56] <helpcrypto> i love u guys
# [21:56] <helpcrypto> let me take note
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# [21:57] <xonecas> helpcrypto: if you are going to use localstorage you can find pollyfills here https://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/wiki/HTML5-Cross-Browser-Polyfills and for everything else too
# [21:58] <martndemus> window.name works in IE6 afaik and it can store a neatly sized portion of string in it between page reloads
# [21:58] <martndemus> doesnt work with images though
# [21:58] <martndemus> though
# [21:58] <martndemus> localstorage is more HTML5
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# [22:00] <helpcrypto> seems that window.name doesnt work on ff
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# [22:01] <helpcrypto> ok...localstorage is what i was looking for
# [22:01] <helpcrypto> now, question 2
# [22:01] <helpcrypto> imagine a browser(any) with two tabs
# [22:02] <helpcrypto> can tab #1 access the dom, js or localstorage from tab#2 ?
# [22:02] <martndemus> case localstorage: i believe it does
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# [22:03] <helpcrypto> shit!
# [22:04] <martndemus> well
# [22:05] <martndemus> If i interpret the document correctly, then the browser makes one localstorage object for every 'origin'
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# [22:19] <martndemus> wauw
# [22:20] <martndemus> you can use  to fix the gaps between inline-blocked items
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# [22:26] <martndemus> or even better, <? ?> or <% %>
# [22:27] <jakefolio> martndemus: what are you talking about?
# [22:27] <jakefolio> those are PHP/ASP delimiters
# [22:27] <jakefolio> well Ruby too
# [22:27] <martndemus> im talking about a small gap between element that are next to each other
# [22:27] <martndemus> if you make them inline
# [22:27] <martndemus> because of the spaces
# [22:28] <jakefolio> you have an example online?
# [22:28] <martndemus> secx
# [22:28] <cheilmann> I really get the distinct feeling that modifying 3D CSS directly via the style attribute is buggy as hell
# [22:30] <martndemus> data:text/html,<style> li { background:#000;color:#fff;display:inline-block; }</style><ul><li>Text</li> <li>Text</li> <li>Text</ul>
# [22:30] <martndemus> copy that into chrom jakefolio
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# [22:30] <martndemus> chrome*
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# [22:32] <martndemus> you see how the gaps between elements appear when you put spaces between them?
# [22:32] <jakefolio> just float left
# [22:32] <martndemus> nah
# [22:32] <martndemus> that calls for a whole other trouble
# [22:32] <jakefolio> why not?
# [22:32] <jakefolio> idk how that would be trouble
# [22:32] <martndemus> i hate clearfixing :P
# [22:33] <paul_irish> xonecas: nope.
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# [22:33] <jakefolio> either float it or put the li's on the same line
# [22:33] <martndemus> yeah
# [22:33] <jakefolio> or without the whitespace
# [22:33] <martndemus> or
# [22:33] <martndemus> put  between them
# [22:34] <cheilmann> comments to fix things?
# [22:34] <martndemus> as all whitespace between them gets negated :p
# [22:34] <cheilmann> that is dirty
# [22:34] <martndemus> but
# [22:34] <jakefolio> I agree with cheilmann
# [22:34] <martndemus> if you are using php/asp/ruby
# [22:34] <jakefolio> seems a bit hackish just to avoid float/float contain
# [22:34] <martndemus> then use <? ?> instead of the comment
# [22:34] <cheilmann> this is like </li \n> as we had to do with IE
# [22:34] <martndemus> well float is a dirty hack to me
# [22:35] <cheilmann> as it rendered line breaks as whitespace in between elements
# [22:35] <Conexion> Whitespace is handled like crap in browsers imo :p
# [22:35] <cheilmann> martndemus: these are all CSS issues
# [22:35] <martndemus> yeah i know
# [22:35] <cheilmann> why not ask CSS peeps?
# [22:35] <martndemus> i did :p
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# [22:36] <trumpetmic> what's the best format for web video these days?
# [22:36] <Conexion> Best is subjective :p
# [22:36] <martndemus> both webm and h264
# [22:36] <jakefolio> Conexion: is nicer than me…I would say the one that works
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# [22:36] <jakefolio> you can usually get away with mp4 (with the right bit rate encoding) and ogv
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# [22:37] <trumpetmic> do I need to have several formats and encodings available in my player?
# [22:37] <martndemus> most likely if you want to support multiple browsers
# [22:38] <jakefolio> ….FYI, webm is only supported by Chrome ATM
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# [22:38] <trumpetmic> i do
# [22:38] <jakefolio> IE9 has a plugin you can use
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# [22:38] <trumpetmic> i want to support IE 8+, Firefox, Chrome, Safari
# [22:38] <jakefolio> …..but aren't we trying to move away from needing plugins….just saying
# [22:38] <jakefolio> mp4 and ogv should do you fine
# [22:38] <jakefolio> with a flash player to play the mp4 in IE8
# [22:39] <martndemus> afaik ff and opera suport webm
# [22:39] <jakefolio> martndemus: they must have started supporting it not too long ago
# [22:40] <martndemus> according to CanIUse: ff from 4.0, opera from 10.6
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# [22:42] <cheilmann> trumpetmic: use vid.ly - it creates a video in 20 formats and redirects to the correct format according to browser and hardware
# [22:42] <cheilmann> very useful indeed
# [22:45] <tantek> cheilmann, yes, vid.ly is kind of amazing.
# [22:46] <cheilmann> tantek: did you see the uploader I wrote for MDN?
# [22:47] <tantek> cheilmann - probably not?
# [22:47] <cheilmann> you give it a url of a video and it gives you the embed
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# [22:48] <tantek> beauty!
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# [22:49] <bitwise_> cheilmann: im seeing odd behavior on the .front div here: http://jsfiddle.net/Na4he/37/ its related to using other content with rotation
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# [22:50] <bitwise_> the -webkit-transform-style:preserve-3d; rule seems to be causing some strangness
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# [22:52] <cheilmann> seems to be a hover issue really
# [22:52] <Pomax> paul_irish: what are the chances of adding a "don't cache anything" option to chrome? It caches so aggressively the only way to do reliable dev work is to constantly manually clear the cache >_>
# [22:52] <paul_irish> gear icon in bottom right of devtools, Pomax
# [22:53] <Pomax> =O
# [22:53] <Pomax> many thanks.
# [22:53] <bitwise_> yeah.. loses :hover state when it starts rotation
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# [22:54] <Pomax> that could look a lot better (like an actual dialog to match the styling of the dev tools) but certainly does the trick
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# [22:55] <martndemus> what does override user agent do? @paul_irish
# [22:55] <cheilmann> bitwise_: so hover over a parent element
# [22:56] <paul_irish> martndemus: o.o
# [22:56] <Conexion> It changes your user agent
# [22:56] <paul_irish> maybe it rides over another user agent
# [22:56] <paul_irish> vrooooom
# [22:56] <martndemus> =D
# [22:56] <Conexion> :o
# [22:56] <martndemus> oh shiit
# [22:56] <martndemus> if i actually ticked the box
# [22:57] <martndemus> i would have found out myself =D
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# [22:59] <trumpetmic> thanks for the help on <video> stuff everyone!
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# [23:42] <cheilmann> OK there is totally weird things going on with backface-visibility
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# [23:45] <bitwise_> cheilmann: yeah im messin with that too
# [23:45] <bitwise_> what are you discovering
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# Session Close: Thu Dec 08 00:00:00 2011

The end :)