/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-12-08 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Dec 08 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:06] <cheilmann> that tool longer than it should have
# [00:06] <cheilmann> http://thewebrocks.com/demos/3D-css-tester/
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# [00:14] <xonecas> cheilmann: thanks, now instead of working all afternoon, I will be playing with that :-D
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# [00:46] <Amarande> okay, odd HTML5 test behaviour.
# [00:46] <Amarande> It should be only browser dependent, right, not OS?
# [00:46] <Amarande> Yet, when I run Firefox/Iceweasel Aurora on Windows, I get 314 points on html5test.com while on the same version on Linux I only get 299.
# [00:47] <Amarande> Where are the 15 extra points coming from on Windows, and why can't Linux get them?
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# [00:47] <Amarande> (It can't be related to codecs being patented and thus excluded from opensource dev - that would be under Bonus points anyway)
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# [00:47] <Amarande> It's been this way since at least 9.0a2, possibly even as far back to 8.0 being aurora
# [00:48] <xonecas> Amarande: Linux has some issues :-)
# [00:48] <Amarande> xonecas: but what, specifically, is missing in Linux here that shows up in Windows to be worth a full 15 points?
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# [00:49] <Amarande> Since I'm using Aurora 10.0a2 on both the Linux and Windows machine, it's presumably something to do with the OS itself, and not even browser dependent
# [00:49] * donald_cook is now known as _dc
# [00:49] <xonecas> Hum, not sure if I can name one like that, but I could guess it is related with some non-free content
# [00:50] <xonecas> Amarande: I'm on archlinux, with ffx aurora, and I get 314 :/
# [00:50] <xonecas> plus 9 bonus
# [00:50] <Amarande> interesting.
# [00:51] <Amarande> I wonder now if there's something debian took out in iceweasel
# [00:51] <xonecas> if you scroll through the output of the test can't you find it?
# [00:51] <Amarande> but that doesn't seem likely, as they really only made iceweasel to be able to port things like security updates without running afoul of the Firefox trademark restrictions on redistributing modified versions (which have to be called something other than FF)
# [00:51] <Amarande> xonecas: the machines are in different rooms, so I can't really side by side compare
# [00:52] <xonecas> sucks
# [00:52] <xonecas> hum
# [00:52] <Amarande> is html5test printable, preferably without using an enormous amount of toner (which I'm that close to being out of)?
# [00:52] <Amarande> not sure if the grey background is going to come out on the printout and devour what's left of my toner
# [00:52] <xonecas> http://pastebin.com/TqNYhRC6
# [00:53] <xonecas> there's my output in linux
# [00:53] <xonecas> compare that pastie with the one from your linix
# [00:53] <xonecas> linux
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# [00:53] <xonecas> you can use vimdiff or something comparable
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# [00:55] <xonecas> remysharp: ballzes LOL!
# [00:55] <Amarande> ah, it's WebGL
# [00:56] <xonecas> how so? what is debian missing?
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# [00:57] <Amarande> Not sure, but 3D Context says "no" on mine and "yes" on yours, which is indeed exactly a 15 point difference
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# [00:58] <Amarande> It appears not to be related to DRI support, either, as I had the same score both with nvidia proprietary drivers and with nouveau
# [00:58] <xonecas> that's a bummer
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# [00:59] <Amarande> (ended up switching back to nouveau when I upgraded to the new motherboard, as I had to go to the backported 2.6.39 kernel for Z68 chipset compatibility, and 2.6.39 doesn't appear to like the debian nvidia driver package)
# [00:59] <xonecas> I wonder it is hardware specific, as in, your machine's graphics card is not up to snuff
# [00:59] <xonecas> oh I see
# [01:00] <Amarande> hm, not sure: I never tried it on this machine under Windows
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# [01:00] <Amarande> it's a GeForce GTS 250, that can't be too old though
# [01:00] <ProLoser|Work> paul_irish_: i realize you probably already know about this, but i just realized that google chrome has a calculator built into the address bar
# [01:01] <xonecas> it's newer than mine, so it should be ok. maybe if you jump to the 3.0 kernel
# [01:01] <xonecas> I believe nvidea has drivers for 3.0
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# [01:02] <Amarande> I actually haven't tried the nVidia drivers fresh-from-the-site, only the Debian packaged ones (195.something, I think those ones are)
# [01:02] <Amarande> Apparently the problem is that they changed the kernel headers late in 2.6, and ones needed to build the 195.xx nvidia were moved or deleted, so make pukes
# [01:03] <xonecas> hum... you should try the fresh ones, on the latest kernel (looks like that's where I'm at)
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# [01:25] <xonecas> paul_irish_: check h5bp server configs when you have a chance :-) I'm not able to pull no more.
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# [01:30] <cheilmann> screencast recorded and converting
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# [01:39] <cheilmann> airhockey in webgl
# [01:39] <cheilmann> http://www.chromeexperiments.com/detail/webgl-air-hockey-demo/
# [01:39] <cheilmann> cute
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# [01:44] <paul_irish_> xonecas: hmm you cant pull?
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# [01:45] <xonecas> paul_irish: seem's like I can't, no permissions
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# [01:47] <paul_irish> ooo
# [01:47] <paul_irish> lemme get you those
# [01:48] <paul_irish> xonecas: added.
# [01:48] <xonecas> thanks paul, I'll hack on that once, i get home.
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# [01:52] <{bosco}> is it possible with html 5 to have <footer class="whatveryouwanthere"></footer> and also if so how would i call opon it in css??
# [01:53] <danielfilho> {bosco}: footer.whatveryouwanthere
# [01:53] <dilvie> does h5bp still have the highlighter pink?
# [01:54] <danielfilho> dilvie: it does, but you can change it if you will :)
# [01:54] <{bosco}> danielfilho: so i can use footer class rather than div class for a footer?
# [01:54] <xonecas> {bosco}: remeber to use the html5shiv if you're going to use html5 tags :-) http://code.google.com/p/html5shiv/
# [01:54] <dilvie> nice
# [01:54] <danielfilho> xonecas: i'd recommend the createElement if he will use just a few tags :)
# [01:54] <{bosco}> xonecas: i do dont wrry
# [01:54] <xonecas> {bosco}: use like a div, but replace div with footer :-)
# [01:55] <{bosco}> xonecas: just curious never had 2 do that just checking if it was valid or not and same thing with the header right ?
# [01:55] <xonecas> danielfilho: createElement doesn't solve the print issue, neither does it afect elements added with innerHTML
# [01:55] <danielfilho> {bosco}: on CSS, if you don't put . or # before, you're mentioning a tag. Just like you do with div, li and things like that :)
# [01:56] <danielfilho> xonecas: hm, that's right… it totally depends on the project.
# [01:56] <{bosco}> right i know that lol
# [01:56] <danielfilho> I didn't :( thanks xonecas :)
# [01:56] <{bosco}> just making sure it is valid html5 was all lol
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# [01:56] <xonecas> yep it's valid
# [01:56] <{bosco}> ok
# [01:56] <{bosco}> thanks everyone off to finish coding
# [01:57] <xonecas> our pleasure :-)
# [01:57] <danielfilho> no problem :)
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# [01:58] <xonecas> danielfilho: yeah, unless i'm doing something very simple, I always throw the shiv in
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# [01:59] <danielfilho> I'm making my personal website and was using only the createElement… will drop the shiv in too :)
# [01:59] <danielfilho> I mean, not WITH the createElement :)
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# [02:03] <xonecas> danielfilho: it will save you work :-)
# [02:03] <danielfilho> thanks dude :)
# [02:04] <xonecas> sem problema, meu irmao!
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# [02:05] <danielfilho> O_O
# [02:06] <xonecas> heh, sou brasileiro tambem, de Sao Paulo. Mas vivo na california.
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# [02:06] <danielfilho> CARAMBA!
# [02:06] <danielfilho> demais :)
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# [02:06] <xonecas> a comunidade de html5 e' internacional!!
# [02:07] <danielfilho> awesome :D
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# [02:15] <cheilmann> http://hacks.mozilla.org/2011/12/screencast-3d-css-rollovers-and-3d-css-tester/
# [02:15] <cheilmann> done the screencast
# [02:17] <danielfilho> will see that as soon as I finish what I'm doing :)
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# [02:24] <nuba> o/ hi from rio de janeiro, brazil!
# [02:25] * nuba goes back to work...
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# [02:31] <Paradoxial> Does anyone know how to use this? http://remysharp.com/2008/09/10/the-silky-smooth-marquee
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# [02:41] <Pomax> oh god, ClearType makes that *so* purple
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# [03:15] <{bosco}> ok i am wanting to put a text link on the bottem of the page got that taken care of just the positioning right or left am i better off using padding-left:50px; or left:50px; and also is word-spacing:1px; the easiest way to get space between links or words for that matter??
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# [03:35] <Pomax> {bosco}, which I sincerely hope is a nod to Sam and Max, it kind of depends on what you have at the bottom. A single text link needs no word spacing.
# [03:35] <Pomax> and if you want it centered, margin: 0px auto; may be all you need.
# [03:38] <{bosco}> well i will have more than one link so that is why i want word spacing but as far as the other they both do the same thing just looking for valid html 5 and cross browser support?
# [03:38] <{bosco}> Pomax:
# [03:38] <{bosco}> sorry
# [03:40] <ryanseddon> zomg, cyber criminals are hax0ring us with super cookies http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16005053
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# [03:45] <Pomax> omg, It is still in development but some applications already support it!
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# [03:46] <Pomax> bosco, in what form. <ul> <li><a href=...>...</a></li> ... </ul>?
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# [03:52] <{bosco}> <a href> sory
# [03:52] <{bosco}> Pomax:
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# [04:07] <Pomax> just separate <a> links?
# [04:08] <Pomax> then the first thing I'd recommend is wrapping those in <ul><li>...</li><li>...</li>...</ul> so that you have better control over the styling.
# [04:08] <{bosco}> Pomax: how do i get them t o align the text to the bottom of the page? verticly i mean
# [04:08] <Pomax> position: absolute; bottom: 0px;
# [04:10] <Pomax> setting the container content to "vertical-align: bottom" should then also snap every bit of (non-multilinetext
# [04:10] <Pomax> *(non-multiline) text to the bottom
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# [04:12] <{bosco}> ok thansk
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# [04:15] <Pomax> you can regulate the inter-link space with CSS, either by using "#whateverbottomcontainer a+a { margin-left: ...; }" or "#whateverbottomcontainer li+li { margin-left: ...; }"
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# [04:16] <Pomax> the concept is the same: the a+a/li+li rule says "when you see an a/li preceded by another a/li, do this: ... "
# [04:16] <Pomax> so rather than playing with wordspacing, which will wreck multi-word links, you play with the inter-element spacing.
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# [05:19] <Pomax> jsfiddle needs an "are you SURE you want to reload the page?" dialog so very hard.
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# [07:01] <Pomax> hmm. annoying wibble in http://jsfiddle.net/w4xyz
# [07:01] <Pomax> already violating html by using an aggregate div... >_>
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# [07:02] <tw2113> Paul: WP Strict | Romney: Drupal Strict | Bachmann: WP Trans | Santorum: Drupal Strict | Huntsman: ? Strict | Gingrich: Drupal Trans | Perry: WP html5
# [07:05] <thatryan> lol tw2113 interesting
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# [07:06] <tw2113> despite the xhtml strict part, i'm still voting the first one listed
# [07:06] <tw2113> i don't want to have to vote Perry even if he has 2 awesome flags for him
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# [07:09] <tw2113> was just told that Hunstman is on Expression Engine
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# [07:27] <tw2113> thatryan i forgot Gary Johnson, and he has WP+html5 doctype
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# [08:13] <tw2113> i feel nerdy
# [08:16] <moo-_-> what would be a good media query spell to load mobile CSS?
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# [08:20] <moo-_-> tw2113: I believe it is usually caused by the fact that you are a nerd :)
# [08:20] <tw2113> good point
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# [08:25] <dwarder> lol
# [08:25] <tw2113> are the data-attributes mostly aimed for js people?
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# [08:37] <vhsjon> hi, I was wondering if anybody knew about any good articles about the limitations of the html5 canvas element?
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# [08:55] <skylamer`> any one know a stylus and jade plugins for Notepad++ ? :)
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# [08:55] <skylamer`> i mean to click some things or with keyboard shortcuts and to be generated the rea l content, like the zencoding do :)
# [08:56] <skylamer`> or now it's only possible to make it thorugh server, javascript api and the cmdline? :)
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# [09:24] <josefrichter> more css3 than html5 question, but related: will there ever be something like "shape tweening" in css3/html5?
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# [09:26] <ProLoser|Mac> hallo
# [09:26] <ProLoser|Mac> in <button> is the type attribute mandatory?
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# [09:35] <moo-_-> what was the recent article comparing different viewport and Javascript window, screen, etc. variables in mobile?
# [09:35] <grantg> moo-_-: This is why we can't have nice JavaScript things - http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=76865#c31
# [09:37] <moo-_-> a blog post related to this https://gist.github.com/1410787
# [09:37] <moo-_-> need to find it
# [09:37] <moo-_-> :)
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# [11:01] <niftylettuce> http://easteregg.in
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# [11:07] <niftylettuce> http://i.imgur.com/Dkx0V.png
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# [11:55] <Trisox> niftylettuce: lol :D
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# [13:59] <Jon47> I'm trying to gauge the value between reducing http requests and reducing total transfer size, i've got a single sprite image as a png-24 that is 222kb, and if I separate the parts that require transparency from the parts that don't, I can reduce it to a png-8 that is 80kb and a png-24 that is 10k, do you all think that's worth it?
# [13:59] <Jon47> I can reduce total transfer size by like 130k just by adding one http request
# [14:00] <JakeA> Jon47: Are you on OSX? If so, check out http://pngmini.com/
# [14:00] <JakeA> png-8 with full alpha
# [14:00] <JakeA> that's what I use for most sprites
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# [14:00] <Jon47> ah interesting
# [14:01] <Jon47> let me see what i can get the single image down to
# [14:01] <Jon47> i've just been saving in CS5
# [14:01] <JakeA> Also (own site pimpage coming up…) http://www.spritecow.com/ might help with getting sprite positions & dimensions
# [14:01] <jetienne> Jon47: you should bench it. but for 130k, it seem a clear winner
# [14:02] <Jon47> JakeA I've seen that one, Paul Irish pimped it awhile back on Twitter, it's very slick
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# [14:05] <Jon47> JakeA, ok my 200k png just got chopped down to 50k, I'm gonna go with this one ;)
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# [14:05] <jetienne> what are they doing to remove 75% of data ?
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# [14:05] <JakeA> brilliant app isnt' it? Run it through http://imageoptim.pornel.net/ too, will probably get even smaller
# [14:06] <JakeA> jetienne: It's paletted & indexed. So straight away pixels are now 8bit rather than 32bit, & that's before all the clever zlib shit
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# [14:07] <JakeA> But yeah, limits to 256 palette entries, including alpha variations
# [14:07] <jetienne> JakeA: so they reduce the amount of color
# [14:07] <JakeA> So need to keep an eye on the quality
# [14:07] <jetienne> ah ok
# [14:07] <JakeA> yeah
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# [14:07] <jetienne> all my monochrome images could use it tho :)
# [14:08] <JakeA> Certainly, although even monochrome + alpha would need colours reduce
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# [14:09] <JakeA> Monochrome + alpha is up to 256*256 combinations
# [14:09] <jetienne> JakeA: is there a format with 1 bit alpha ?
# [14:09] <jetienne> hmm thinking about webgl which store every pix in 4byte...
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# [14:10] <jetienne> uncompressed.
# [14:10] <JakeA> The png-8 format photoshop kicks out uses one palette entry for transparent
# [14:11] <jetienne> ok thanks
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# [14:48] <solata10> hello. i am trying to use html5 eventsource. event onmessage() fires ok when my server is only outputing data:something\n .... however if my server outputs event:someevent\ndata:somedata\n\n it no longer works. i have to addEventListener("someevent",...) to catch that event.
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# [14:49] <solata10> is there some way to catch all events generated by eventsource in one functioin ? (if for example i dont know thje name of event server will send)
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# [16:34] <jarek> do you know when the new flexbox will be supported in Chrome?
# [16:34] <jarek> according to this article, it has been already implemented in WebKit
# [16:35] <jarek> http://peter.sh/2011/11/cross-fading-css-flexible-box-grid-layout-filters-and-meta-referer/
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# [16:45] <Jon47> jarek i think it's already implemented using vendor prefixes...
# [16:45] <jarek> Jon47: I mean the new flexbox
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# [16:45] <jarek> Jon47: it's completely different from the previous implementation
# [16:46] <jarek> the spec has be rewritten
# [16:46] <jarek> s/be/been
# [16:46] <Jon47> ah i see
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# [16:50] <jarek> is it allowed to imitate the look of native widgets with HTML5?
# [16:51] <jarek> it the look of OSX and Windows widgets protected by copyright?
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# [16:56] <codeho> i believe you can make your stuff look however you please.
# [16:57] <codeho> as long as you don't use copyrighted logos or pictures
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# [16:58] <jarek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_(computing)#Licensing_and_patents
# [16:59] <jarek> I wonder if this covers basic UI elements such as buttons and menus
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# [17:07] <Moonies> You're a basic UI element
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# [17:12] <jarek> Moonies: no, I'm not :D
# [17:12] <jarek> but he is http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/db/Clippy-letter.PNG
# [17:13] <Moonies> NOOOOOOOOOOO
# [17:13] <Moonies> NOCOHERENTRESPONSE
# [17:13] <codeho> haha
# [17:13] <codeho> seeing this raises pure horror in me
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# [17:17] <csmrfx> wherez a good html5 template?
# [17:17] <csmrfx> I used this one but I dislike it slightly http://html5boilerplate.com/
# [17:20] <jarek> csmrfx: why don't you build your own one?
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# [17:20] <csmrfx> I usually have
# [17:21] <csmrfx> but if a better one exists, why do it again
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# [17:24] <Jon47> h5bp is kind of the premiere template
# [17:24] <Jon47> i usually start from there and modify as i see fit
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# [17:30] <Jon47> csmrfx what are your complaints about boilerplate? I find that they include descriptive analysis of all the choices they make and provide good information for making the decision about whether you want to include each piece or not
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# [17:32] <csmrfx> Well it behaves strangely in chromium and I dont use ant nor junit so thats useless
# [17:33] <Jon47> I don't use chromium but I do use the dev channel of chrome..
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# [17:33] <csmrfx> dislike it slightly is not quite the same as complaining btw
# [17:33] <Jon47> hehe, sure, didn't mean to imply anything
# [17:33] <Jon47> i don't use the ant build script either
# [17:33] <csmrfx> I'm glad someone actually is interested in the topic. Riven jumped my ass for talking about html template https://gist.github.com/1447496
# [17:34] <bibo360> hi there. are there vim users here
# [17:34] <Jon47> cause i deplore XML
# [17:34] <bibo360> ?
# [17:34] <Jon47> riven is an ass, don't listen to him
# [17:34] <csmrfx> bibo360: yes
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# [17:34] <Jon47> if he has his way nobody would ever ask questions or learn anything
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# [17:34] <bibo360> csmrfx: i'm eagerly looking for a key that will repeat "last movement" ?
# [17:35] <csmrfx> bibo360: it's by default '.'
# [17:35] <bibo360> csmrfx: don't work for movement only
# [17:35] <csmrfx> oh
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# [17:36] <csmrfx> bibo360: nevertheless, the correct and most helpful place for all things vim is #vim
# [17:36] <bibo360> ok
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# [17:36] <bibo360> and thanks
# [17:38] <csmrfx> cu there
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# [17:48] <danielfilho> I'm not sure if everybody already knew this
# [17:48] <danielfilho> Anyway, I think it might be a good link soon
# [17:48] <danielfilho> http://developers.facebook.com/html5/blog/
# [17:48] <danielfilho> :)
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# [18:18] <choclatboy> hi, i'm looking for ressources or examples to help me make a learining web site for kids
# [18:19] <choclatboy> with "simple animations" & "audio", any help is welcome.
# [18:19] <csmrfx> I recommend stackoverflow and google
# [18:19] <martndemus> thats not really kid friendly )=
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# [18:20] <csmrfx> Um, I understood the final product is directed for kids
# [18:20] <csmrfx> and also, I dont see why kids would need a dumbed down experience of anything, not to mention html5
# [18:20] <martndemus> oh
# [18:21] <martndemus> i read learning kids how to html5
# [18:21] <martndemus> my mistake
# [18:21] <thatryan> choclatboy: do you mean something that is easier for young kids to learn with?
# [18:21] <csmrfx> jmo =)
# [18:21] <Pomax> hackasaurus.org?
# [18:22] <choclatboy> the site is for kids to help learn alphabets ....
# [18:22] <cheilmann> hackasaurus kicks ass
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# [18:22] <cheilmann> I had a lot of kids play with X-ray at the mozilla festival and they had a lot of fin
# [18:22] <cheilmann> fun
# [18:23] <cheilmann> no fin. No aquatic kids there
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# [18:25] <martndemus> just curious, how do you people tackle the IE6,7,8,9,10 test stack?
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# [18:25] <jarek> https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-December/018775.html
# [18:26] <jarek> things are getting interesting
# [18:26] <thatryan> adobe browser lab, and vm ware
# [18:26] <cheilmann> crappy old XP laptop and Windows 7 VM
# [18:26] <cheilmann> :)
# [18:26] <cheilmann> and lots of fucks not being given
# [18:26] <martndemus> k
# [18:26] <martndemus> yeah
# [18:26] <thatryan> lol
# [18:26] <martndemus> im right now running w7 vm and wxp vm
# [18:27] <martndemus> I just use the old browser mode in IE9
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# [18:27] <thatryan> also been trying out browserstack.com
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# [18:27] <cheilmann> or use progressive enhancement
# [18:28] <cheilmann> if(document.querySelector){
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# [18:28] <martndemus> I do :)
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# [18:29] <martndemus> btw
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# [18:30] <martndemus> do the same browsers on different OS matter much?
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# [18:32] <cheilmann> depends which
# [18:32] <cheilmann> then again, the most annoying when it comes to testing are the ones tied to an OS
# [18:32] <cheilmann> Safari on windows is pointless to test for
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# [18:32] <cheilmann> and yeah, Linux builds will always do random stuff
# [18:33] <cheilmann> funnily enough mostly related to video card strangeness
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# [18:33] <martndemus> figured
# [18:33] <martndemus> Im on linux =D
# [18:33] <martndemus> (2 poor 2 buy a mac)
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# [18:34] <cheilmann> work for a good company then :)
# [18:34] <cheilmann> Mozilla sent me my MBP two weeks before I signed the contract
# [18:34] <martndemus> I'm still in school :P
# [18:34] <cheilmann> bit if a cheek there
# [18:34] <cheilmann> :)
# [18:35] <martndemus> oh well
# [18:35] <martndemus> linux has it's quirks
# [18:35] <martndemus> but i like it
# [18:35] <tw2113> cheilmann did it have a sticker making it look like the Mozilla dinosaur took the bite out of the apple logo?
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# [18:36] <cheilmann> no sadly enough not
# [18:36] <cheilmann> now it has the iron man decal
# [18:36] <tw2113> *kicks dirt*
# [18:36] <cheilmann> http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/2010/02/il_fullxfull120580891.jpg
# [18:36] <thatryan> thats rad
# [18:37] <martndemus> hah thats nice
# [18:37] <martndemus> btw
# [18:37] <martndemus> are MBA worth it? or are they way too slow?
# [18:37] <tw2113> my dell studio 15 has....the pirate ship from The Pirate Bay, a reddit sticker, octocat, and a generic Manic Street Preachers sticker
# [18:38] <tw2113> oh yeah, and a Creative Commons sticker that no one can see because they put black text on clear backing
# [18:38] <thatryan> i really want to get an air too, but my MBP has anti glare, 2.8GHz quad core i7, 8GB ram, 512gb ssd.... wondering if i would regret it
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# [18:39] * tw2113 should really upgrade his desktop OS off of Fedora 14. it loses support tomorrow I believe
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# [18:40] <jarek> tw2113: Fedora 15 is a disaster, don't do this
# [18:41] <tw2113> my laptop that I'm on now is on 15
# [18:41] <tw2113> BUT i'm on fluxbox and not gnome shell
# [18:41] <martndemus> fedora 16 equally sucks
# [18:41] <jarek> tw2113: I'm also using Fedora 15, I had to compile half of the gnome apps manually to make it usable
# [18:41] <tw2113> I'd be going the same route with the desktop...go back to fluxbox to reduce the suck
# [18:44] <jarek> it's sad that there is no operating system on the market for power users
# [18:44] <martndemus> what kind of OS would that be?
# [18:44] <jarek> martndemus: e.g. Linux with KDE 3.5
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# [18:44] * martndemus never used KDE
# [18:44] * martndemus uses Ubuntu 11.10 with GS 3.2
# [18:45] <jarek> Gnome Shell is a toy
# [18:46] <martndemus> nah its actually usefull
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# [18:46] <jarek> martndemus: how many windows do you have opened now?
# [18:46] <martndemus> 7
# [18:47] <martndemus> ./afk
# [18:47] <jarek> martndemus: I usually have from 10 to 20 windows opened on 4 spaces
# [18:47] <jarek> martndemus: switching between them in GS would be ridiculus
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# [19:00] <Conexion> csmrfx: riven is a bit of an ass, I'm not sure how he got to moderating some of the main channels here
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# [19:01] <Conexion> He is pretty dang knowledgeable though
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# [20:30] <xonecas> o/
# [20:30] <xonecas> g'morning folks
# [20:30] <tw2113> yo
# [20:31] <martndemus> morning? =D
# [20:31] <Pomax> it's always morning.
# [20:32] <martndemus> its ffing 10pm out here!
# [20:32] <xonecas> well i just got yp, so it's morning for me :-)\
# [20:33] <martndemus> =D
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# [20:46] <danielfilho> xonecas, hey, morning? cmon, it's about to get dark here :D
# [20:46] <danielfilho> 'morning anyway.
# [20:46] <danielfilho> :)
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# [20:47] <xonecas> ehehe g'night to you :-D
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# [20:55] <xonecas> tw2113: indeed god bless init3
# [20:56] <tw2113> i had crashing graphics, but am used to terminals too, so i was able to apply all of the F16 updates that way
# [20:56] <tw2113> plus get fluxbox :D
# [20:57] <Conexion> I know this is a tad old, but I just saw this for the first time - Awesome demos - http://blog.gingertech.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/LCA_MM_AVProc2011/
# [20:57] <xonecas> (fanboy warning) you should check out awesome
# [20:57] <xonecas> awesome is a tiling wm with super easy lua configs
# [20:57] <Conexion> Almost noon here :p
# [20:57] <tw2113> first the update downloads.....then the actual install
# [20:58] <xonecas> tw2113: I always boot to init3 then login in cli, my xinitrc starts my wm
# [20:58] <xonecas> faster, and less memory spent at boot
# [20:59] <tw2113> http://www.favbrowser.com/web-browsers-as-girls/
# [20:59] <tw2113> it's SFW
# [21:00] <tw2113> and they're cruel to Firefox
# [21:01] <xonecas> ffx girlm why did you let yourself go lol
# [21:01] <xonecas> doesn't apply, i don't think
# [21:01] <xonecas> ffx is my fav browser right now (sorry chrome, I still prefer you for development)
# [21:01] <Conexion> I think they're being a tad harsh on all the browsers :p
# [21:02] <tw2113> i use chrome for tweetdeck *grin*
# [21:02] <martndemus> its a comic guys :P
# [21:02] <xonecas> lol
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# [21:02] <Conexion> I prefer Firefox, but Chrome keeps calling to me. Firefox in my experience renders closer to standards though @_@
# [21:02] <tw2113> i've been dev'ing on Fx Aurora for a few weeks
# [21:02] <xonecas> the new android twitter app is awesome
# [21:02] <martndemus> it looks nice
# [21:03] <xonecas> tw2113: are the native dev tools good for use yet?
# [21:03] <martndemus> but i do think they wasted some space :(
# [21:03] <martndemus> xonecas: nope
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# [21:03] <martndemus> atleast not in nightly
# [21:03] <tw2113> they're not there *yet* but they're not the absolute worst
# [21:03] <tw2113> I do keep firebug with me too and tend to prefer them still
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# [21:03] <martndemus> the dev tools in nightly only show you the dom tree atm
# [21:03] <tw2113> i would like to get the inspector tool to dock out of the window
# [21:04] <tw2113> you can edit bits of it too martndemus
# [21:04] <tw2113> attributes etc
# [21:04] <martndemus> no css (atleast not for me) and no javascript console etc
# [21:04] <martndemus> sure
# [21:04] <xonecas> It's only a matter of time, and I really love how paul rouget asks for feedback and help from the community
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# [21:04] <martndemus> but its not a full dev tool yet ;)
# [21:04] <tw2113> it should have a console already, just not in the inspector area
# [21:05] <tw2113> ctrl+shift+k
# [21:05] <xonecas> i really want to try the new twitter webby :-(
# [21:05] <martndemus> ah there it is
# [21:05] <tw2113> firebug has all these things in 1 spot, Firefox has them all separate at the moment
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# [21:06] <martndemus> oh nice
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# [21:07] <martndemus> i like how you can customize warning levels for different things
# [21:08] <tw2113> you get use of the $0 variable too
# [21:08] <martndemus> though in the console, im used to hitting -> to accept a suggestion, not tab
# [21:09] <martndemus> oh hey :)
# [21:09] <martndemus> css started working =D
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# [21:09] <tw2113> kind of have to hit tab or so for css changes to work last i tinkered
# [21:09] <tw2113> while chrome/firebug change those right away
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# [21:10] <martndemus> also: on 1080p, having all the tools open doesnt hurt that much
# [21:10] <martndemus> but on smaller screens
# [21:10] <martndemus> these tool are going to waste a lot of space
# [21:11] <tw2113> hopefully screen real estate is in the works
# [21:11] <martndemus> i hope so too
# [21:11] <tw2113> cheilmann heard anything about that?
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# [21:11] <cheilmann> about what?
# [21:12] <martndemus> screen real estate with the native ff dev tools
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# [21:12] <cheilmann> what does that mean?
# [21:12] <cheilmann> buying houses?
# [21:12] <martndemus> yes =D
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# [21:13] <martndemus> no actually what i (we) mean is that css, dom and the console all have theire own seperate box
# [21:13] <martndemus> on the screen
# [21:13] <martndemus> which wastes a lot of space
# [21:13] <xonecas> http://gizmodo.com/5866354/scientists-about-to-find-the-force -> looks like I'm starting to train to become a jedi!
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# [21:14] <jetienne> :))))
# [21:15] <jetienne> when gizmodo is doing science, the world become your wildest fantasy :)
# [21:15] <jetienne> even the name sounds good "the higgs boson"
# [21:17] <xonecas> jetienne: how cool would it be tough :-D I didn't even know about the whole higgs boson hipothesis
# [21:17] <xonecas> next up: x-wing fighters
# [21:19] <tw2113> yes!
# [21:19] <tw2113> got myself a working desktop thanks to fluxbox
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# [21:20] <cheilmann> martndemus: I had this discussion with the team, too
# [21:20] <cheilmann> they want it so you can use the tool you need at the time, not all at once
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# [21:21] <cheilmann> needless to say they're not web developers
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# [21:21] <cheilmann> so the discussion will go on
# [21:22] <xonecas> cheilmann: anything we as developers can do to help in that discussion?
# [21:23] <cheilmann> file bugs/improvements?
# [21:24] <cheilmann> I am on holiday from today on till monday
# [21:24] <cheilmann> but let me set up a feedback channel or something
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# [21:24] <xonecas> I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt your vacations!
# [21:25] <xonecas> I'm just really excited about new dev tools, i know geeky!
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# [21:25] <cheilmann> no that is awesome
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# [21:26] <cheilmann> we need feedback
# [21:26] <cheilmann> it is a daring move to break away from the firebug standard but when you see how bloated the UI of all of the tools got I think it is a good move
# [21:27] <Pomax> what standard?
# [21:27] <cheilmann> Chrometools, Firebug and Dragonfly all have truckloads of features I've never used and really do not care about
# [21:27] <cheilmann> well not standard but pattern/
# [21:27] <cheilmann> "_
# [21:27] <tw2113> i kind of fear the future of firebug
# [21:27] <cheilmann> :)
# [21:27] <Pomax> I rarely ever use dragonfly, since installing it locally is a fscking pain, and not installing it locally means you can't debug without a connection to opera.comm
# [21:27] <cheilmann> tw2113: why? we have a dedicated person working on it in mozilla
# [21:28] <xonecas> cheilmann: I totally agree ver brave to intoduce a simpler more efficient approach that stands out from the norm!
# [21:28] <cheilmann> I want it to become less and less important
# [21:28] <Pomax> if you can make a dev tool that's lean, without sacrificing functionality, go for it and make the world a better place.
# [21:28] <cheilmann> as Firebug is one of the main reasons why people report Firefox as slow
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# [21:28] <cheilmann> which is very frustrating
# [21:28] <martndemus> cheilmann: i would agree that dev tools should be modular, but not to a degree that it consumes a fuckton of my screen
# [21:28] <cheilmann> Pomax: tried the ones in Aurora?
# [21:28] <Pomax> not yet
# [21:28] <tw2113> only said that cause of the firebug lead dev leaving
# [21:29] <cheilmann> There is some awesome stuff coming - Tilt is very interesting and source mapping from coffee script to JavaScript will kick butt
# [21:29] <cheilmann> martndemus: so we need to think of a way to collapse
# [21:29] <cheilmann> or stack
# [21:29] <martndemus> yes, or tab
# [21:30] <martndemus> with key shortcuts
# [21:30] <cheilmann> tw2113: Developers always leave. I left Yahoo and thought everything would break
# [21:30] <cheilmann> it took a year
# [21:30] <cheilmann> :)
# [21:30] <tw2113> gah, i need to get synergy working again
# [21:30] <xonecas> ha! that's kind of mean chris!
# [21:30] <cheilmann> If you as the developer leave and the product dies, then you are a shit developer :)
# [21:30] <cheilmann> xonecas: just yanking your chain :)
# [21:31] <xonecas> eheh, i lol'ed I work with 4 ex-yahoo's
# [21:31] <cheilmann> YUI is still churning
# [21:31] <Pomax> have to agree there. even though it might seem weird to dev in the expectation that someone else should be able to pick up where you're leaving off next week, it's still damn good practice to.
# [21:31] <cheilmann> I am just very frustrated with APIs dying or changing
# [21:31] <Ms2ger> Gulliver's Travels Yahoos?
# [21:31] <xonecas> YUI is looking really god atm
# [21:31] <xonecas> *good
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# [21:32] <xonecas> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv6Ewqx3PMs&feature=share -> off topic, from the way back machine
# [21:32] <martndemus> i havent ever tried YUI, why should i?
# [21:32] <cheilmann> Pomax: that was always my main approach to work: make yourself redundant, teaching people to take over so you can do other things
# [21:32] <martndemus> (as in convince me its different to jquery)
# [21:32] <xonecas> martndemus: very modular, only use what you need
# [21:32] <cheilmann> normally in 2-3 years
# [21:32] <xonecas> it also encourages a very object oriented approach imho
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# [21:33] <xonecas> works all over the place, node.js, cross browser
# [21:33] <martndemus> cheilmann: that shit i get thaught in school, too bad not all devs follow IT studies
# [21:33] <cheilmann> the YUI architecture is spot on
# [21:33] <cheilmann> many large projects could learn from that
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# [21:34] <xonecas> it's also very performant, it uses a lot of the concepts nicholas zakas describes in his book
# [21:34] <cheilmann> I would so suck in computer science :)
# [21:34] <martndemus> haha
# [21:34] <xonecas> (sorry it seems that my english is shit today)
# [21:34] <cashshadow> i am interested in seeing their node.js/ec2 competitor
# [21:34] <xonecas> lol
# [21:34] <cashshadow> the drink thing
# [21:34] <martndemus> it's so freaking easy once you know javascript =D
# [21:34] <cheilmann> My high school final paper was English, German, History and Astronomy
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# [21:35] <xonecas> chris, then you're a right side of the brain type of guy
# [21:35] <cheilmann> well, "once you know JavaScript" is a tall order :)
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# [21:35] <martndemus> =D
# [21:35] <Ms2ger> If you're lucky, you never need to really know JS :)
# [21:35] <cheilmann> Ok, the hair is dry enough to cycle home
# [21:35] <cheilmann> (in the gym)
# [21:35] <xonecas> with all of javascript's hidden secrets and niche quirks, it takes a long time to say I know javascript
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# [21:36] <Pomax> the quirks make things worth learning it
# [21:36] <martndemus> I'm just saying, the programming part of IT/Computer Science is the easiest part
# [21:36] <Pomax> that depends on what you think programming is.
# [21:36] <xonecas> Pomax: agreed, knowing the hard parts brings satisfaction
# [21:36] <martndemus> it's the Software Engineering part thats the hardest one
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# [21:36] <Pomax> if you think it's straight out "writing code that does what you think it needs to do", then yes, it's fairly easy
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# [21:37] <Pomax> if you think programming is also the "finding out whether what you think you need to do is the most efficient way to do that", then programming can be ridiculously hard
# [21:37] <martndemus> then ill go for the first option
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# [21:38] <Pomax> "here's a set of items, we want them sorted" can be either "set.sort()" or "write the exact sorting algorithm required that has the lowest best and average case runtime"
# [21:38] <Pomax> then I don't consider you skilled in programming =)
# [21:38] <Pomax> anyone can be a code monkey given an API and a mind for solving simple puzzles
# [21:38] <martndemus> ofcourse :)
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# [21:39] <Pomax> proper programming also has that "but is my solution actually a good one, or just one that happens to work right now"
# [21:39] <xonecas> Pomax: that right there is an awesome statement
# [21:40] <xonecas> Anyone can use an api, it's creating your own routines, and knowing how to make them perform, that makes a difference
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# [21:40] <martndemus> why am i watching cute little red pandas right now =D
# [21:40] <Pomax> wrong question
# [21:40] <xonecas> martndemus: lolol i am too
# [21:40] <Pomax> why have you not linked us to cute red pandas
# [21:40] <martndemus> http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefoxlive/?WT.mc_id=fxl_tweet&WT.mc_ev=click
# [21:41] <Pomax> it's one of those hidden unifiers. someone might hate haskell, or love R, but if they can't go "omg red pandas O_O", they're not proper techies.
# [21:41] <xonecas> Pomax: you need to jump on twitter, it's like a second conversation with the same people here lol
# [21:41] <Pomax> I'm on twitter, but I know the power of the derail.
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# [21:41] <xonecas> ha!
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# [21:42] <martndemus> yeah cheilmann is spamming my twitter feed to death ;)
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# [21:42] <martndemus> + i dont have the new twitter yet :(((((
# [21:42] <Pomax> why is this not a 3D video feed.
# [21:43] <Pomax> I want to pan and tilt the hell out of this
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# [21:44] <martndemus> =D
# [21:45] <martndemus> they are quite busy critters too
# [21:45] <Pomax> only at times.
# [21:45] <tw2113> yes! got synergy back up
# [21:45] <tw2113> had to open the port
# [21:46] <martndemus> https://blog.mozilla.com/futurereleases/2011/11/28/see-the-web-developer-tools-in-the-latest-aurora/
# [21:46] <martndemus> talking bout the devil
# [21:46] <martndemus> although its an old blogpost
# [21:46] <martndemus> that just got tweeted
# [21:47] <Pomax> I wonder if I can pay to have that enclosure enlarged >_>
# [21:48] <martndemus> you propably can =D
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# [21:51] <martndemus> `omg
# [21:51] <martndemus> FF wont let me send feedback unless im on 8.0.1 :(
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# [21:52] <Pomax> that... kind of makes sense?
# [21:52] <Pomax> feedback is for the current release version
# [21:52] <martndemus> feedback for the nightly perhaps?
# [21:52] <Pomax> otherwise it's dev channel bug reports or "no longer relevant" commentary
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# [21:57] <xonecas> compiling chrome = all cpu cores maxed out!
# [21:58] <martndemus> oh my god its so funny to read all the feedback on ff
# [21:58] <martndemus> https://input.mozilla.com/en-US/?q=&product=firefox&version=--&date_start=&;date_end=
# [21:58] <martndemus> =D
# [21:59] <martndemus> "You have made it difficult to clear out cache, history, etc and this pi**es me off - do you want me to hate you like I hate Microsoft???"
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# [21:59] <Pomax> to be honest, clearing the cache should be a one click action
# [22:00] <Pomax> not an options -> advanced -> networking -> find the magic button
# [22:00] <Ms2ger> Let's say two
# [22:00] <Pomax> alright, two is still acceptable.
# [22:00] <Pomax> Chrome gets cache clearing horribly wrong, too
# [22:00] <Pomax> Opera's slightly better, but they need to name it better. "private data" is not the term people look for.
# [22:00] <martndemus> "I CANT CLICK ON SOME TABS ON FACEBOOK...INCLUDING THE FACT THAT I CANT LOG OUT" =D
# [22:01] <martndemus> thats a nasty bug dont you think =D
# [22:02] <martndemus> "Hate new look, why do I need to hit alt button to see menu bar, if can not get old look back will switch to chrome."
# [22:02] <martndemus> yeah like chrome has a menu bar you silly
# [22:02] <Pomax> no, that makes sense
# [22:02] <Pomax> if you're going to hide the menu bar, you're no longer "better" than chrome in that area
# [22:03] <Pomax> so you removed a reason to stick with FF.
# [22:03] <martndemus> ah
# [22:03] <Ms2ger> Of course, you can get the menu bar back
# [22:03] <Ms2ger> Just right-click
# [22:03] <martndemus> didnt think abbout it like that ;)
# [22:03] <Pomax> it's poorly phrased, of course, but that's "feedback" for you
# [22:04] <Pomax> anything you have to "do" to get functionality that was available without having to "do" something is a UX empoverishment
# [22:04] <martndemus> also
# [22:04] <martndemus> sad to see linux has sent 0% feedback
# [22:05] <martndemus> "You are killing off enterprise followings with rapid updates! If we don't use it at work/school we won't use it at home vice/versa. How about a better update mechanism."
# [22:05] <martndemus> does not make sense
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# [22:07] <Pomax> it makes sense. it's something you can do very little about, but it makes sense.
# [22:09] <Pomax> if enterprises are concerned about the security implications of a rapid release schedule (which is mostly big corps that have been around since the IE days, rather than modern companies that 'grew up' during the browser wars) then they'll go with a snapshot of what they know (or think they know) is not a problematic browser rather than an unknown, untested-in-the-wild browser.
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# [22:09] <Pomax> and there are indeed people who will use at home whatever they are forced to use at work or school.
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# [22:09] <Pomax> we tend to make fun of those people, but they spend money on computers too.
# [22:10] <Pomax> they're not really going to be the people that'll make the revolution happen, though. So from a business perspective it doesn't make much sense in trying to win them over. Win the companies over, and they will follow
# [22:11] <martndemus> (sidenote, the cannonball episode of mythbusters will not include the accident :( )
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# [22:11] <Pomax> but for $29.99 it'll be on the DVD?
# [22:12] <martndemus> hope so =D
# [22:14] <martndemus> btw, to change back to YUI, except for being modular, does it have things that work differently then jquery or things that jquery doesnt even have?
# [22:16] <Pomax> I can't say I've done any YUI work yet
# [22:16] <martndemus> i believe it was xonecas, that did
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# [22:22] <Pomax> hm. time to stash this fiddle. it's fun, but not really going anywhere.
# [22:24] <BrianBlakely> Has anyone ever encountered this in Firefox?
# [22:24] <BrianBlakely> http://i.imgur.com/A15zh.png
# [22:24] <martndemus> i cant tell from that little square wtf it is =D
# [22:24] <martndemus> is it about the border-radiussed corner?
# [22:25] <BrianBlakely> Yeah
# [22:25] <BrianBlakely> You see the weird disconnect between the background and the curve?
# [22:25] <martndemus> thats what happens if you stack two elements of same size
# [22:25] <martndemus> then the curves go bad
# [22:25] <martndemus> lets see if i can replicate it
# [22:26] <BrianBlakely> martndemus: It is a single element
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# [22:27] <BrianBlakely> martndemus: Which posses a white background, a white border, and a border-radius
# [22:27] <martndemus> weird
# [22:28] <martndemus> that normally happens when an equally sized element is inside the other
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# [22:29] <martndemus> http://jsfiddle.net/NUjkJ/ like so
# [22:29] <BrianBlakely> I would expect that to happen, but not with a single element...
# [22:30] <martndemus> page?
# [22:30] <BrianBlakely> It's a rendering error on FF's part, but I can't discern the cause
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# [22:30] <BrianBlakely> martndemus: http://innint.com/kraft/msa/recipe.html
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# [22:32] <martndemus> indeed, looks normal in chrome
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# [22:32] <BrianBlakely> martndemus: Everything looks normal in Chrome, all the time :P
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# [22:34] <tw2113> i have a quick question for the jquery fans in here
# [22:35] <martndemus> BrianBlakely: chrome has its bugs
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# [22:35] <tw2113> i know that $('li') selects li tags, but how does it go through everything and know what it's supposed to select?
# [22:35] <tw2113> does it test for getElementByID and if false, move onto a next dom element?
# [22:35] <tw2113> like class and then tag?
# [22:35] <BrianBlakely> martndemus: Oh, I encountered one while building those tabs. -webkit-transition wasn't working with padding for no good reason
# [22:35] <martndemus> tw2113: want the short or long version?
# [22:36] <tw2113> we'll try short first
# [22:36] <martndemus> okay
# [22:36] <moo-_-> tw2113: read sizzle.js source code
# [22:36] <martndemus> #id's in jquery are fast
# [22:36] <martndemus> everything else is slow
# [22:37] <martndemus> because it has to figure out wtf you want with regular expressions
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# [22:37] <tw2113> i did know that js devs love IDs above all else, and the regex part would be a great reason why for the rest
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# [22:41] <martndemus> tw2113: http://jsperf.com/jquery-id-vs-tag-vs-class
# [22:41] <martndemus> see the diff in speed for basic selectors
# [22:42] <tw2113> nice
# [22:43] <tw2113> so if i want to aim for efficiency even with using jquery plugins, target IDs whenever possible?
# [22:43] <martndemus> yes
# [22:43] <martndemus> and store refs in vars
# [22:43] <martndemus> so it only has to do that shit once
# [22:43] <tw2113> makes sense as well, vars are reusable
# [22:43] <BrianBlakely> martndemus: FYI, This hack worked: I set the border-color to transparent. I should really file a ticket with Mozilla…
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# [22:44] <martndemus> BrianBlakely: thats not a hack, you just made the border disappear =D
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# [22:45] <BrianBlakely> Well, I'm not sure what you consider a hack, but an indirect, non-solution that just works qualifies as one for me :P
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# [22:45] <BrianBlakely> I'm aware why it renders well
# [22:46] <martndemus> maybe we should settle on a 'work-around' =D
# [22:48] <tw2113> :O a wild Style Editor has appeared in Fx Nightly
# [22:48] <tw2113> not the fastest at repainting either
# [22:48] <martndemus> where?
# [22:48] <martndemus> btw
# [22:48] <martndemus> http://www.catswhocode.com/blog/15-techniques-and-tools-for-cross-browser-css-coding
# [22:49] <martndemus> really bad article
# [22:49] <tw2113> try shift+f7
# [22:50] <martndemus> ah
# [22:50] <martndemus> nice
# [22:50] <martndemus> but onlly css?
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# [22:50] <tw2113> just a little wonky at the moment
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# [22:53] <martndemus> question
# [22:53] <martndemus> why do i still have a tab open with red panda livestream? =D
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# [22:55] <beardbar> I have a grid of icons that are currently links. do you think it makes more sense to turn them into buttons?
# [22:55] <beardbar> or are buttons strictly for forms?
# [22:55] <martndemus> what do those links do?
# [22:56] <martndemus> if they end up on other pages, keep using links
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# [22:56] <beardbar> they are launcher icons basically in an admin app to diffrent areas of the admin panel.
# [22:57] <beardbar> yep they do, ok sounds good. thanks
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# [23:43] <acidjazz> beardbar: turn them into butts
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# Session Close: Fri Dec 09 00:00:00 2011

The end :)