/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-12-12 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Dec 12 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
# [00:00] <tw2113> i say do it
# [00:00] <tw2113> how else are you to learn?
# [00:00] <jarek> tw2113: right, but first I should read the whole spec
# [00:01] <tw2113> how much time do you have and how long is the spec?
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# [00:05] <jarek> tw2113: I will read the spec and try to provide constructive feedback, I promise
# [00:05] <tw2113> i'm not that worried about the feedback part
# [00:06] <tw2113> i'm thinking you could get your answers in short time vs reading the whole thing, and possibly still not having them answered
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# [00:12] <martndemus> Q: Read a article on the "feed reader" or click a link and read it on the original site?
# [00:13] <martndemus> (for me its the latter)
# [00:14] <tw2113> my RSS feeds use is generally skim it in the reader, and if i want to read the whole thing and/or comment, click to the full site
# [00:14] <tw2113> if not just move on
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# [00:19] <martndemus> awesome
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# [00:20] <martndemus> google feed api makes this shit 2ez
# [00:20] <martndemus> now to see if i can combine multiple feeds
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# [00:59] <mrStinson> hey
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# [01:12] <chuck_tes> I'm having trouble centering text. The CSS appears to not be allowing me to center the text i want in the middle fo the page as opposed to the left hand side. I tried using your tex but it still renders on the left hand side.
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# [01:13] <codeho_away> text-align: center
# [01:14] <Pomax> yeah, use CSS for that purpose. "p { text-align: center; }" should do the trick, although you may want to set up a jsfiddle.net example with what you have (or link to a url so we can see what's wrong)
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# [01:17] <chuck_tes> well i didn't upload the site yet. im going to try this. brb.
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# [01:27] <jarek> chuck_tes: "align" property was depreciated in HTML5
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# [01:29] <jarek> chuck_tes: make sure that the paragraph is displayed as block, otherwise "text-align: center" won't work
# [01:30] <divya> jarek: shhhh what rot
# [01:30] <divya> please.
# [01:30] <jarek> no, wait.. it's the opposite. The paragraph must be inline
# [01:30] <divya> not enough people bother
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# [01:30] <jarek> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/text-align
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# [01:30] <jarek> "Applies to: block level elements, table cells and inline-blocks"
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# [01:32] <jarek> nvm...
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# [01:37] <jarek> divya: is this post talking about the same shadow DOM?
# [01:37] <jarek> http://peter.sh/2011/05/inspectable-shadow-dom-the-file-browser-and-new-default-avatars/
# [01:37] <divya> yes
# [01:37] <jarek> it's from May 2011, it looks like they have removed it from WebKit since then
# [01:38] <jarek> I can't find any flags that would enable it
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# [01:39] <jarek> omg, it's working!
# [01:39] <jarek> http://lab.simurai.com/css/umbrui/
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# [01:40] <jarek> nah, it's not using any templates
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# [01:44] <Pomax> the top button doesn't show me which direction I'm clicking it?
# [01:45] <jarek> it's just demonstrates the stylings
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# [01:46] <jarek> it's not possible to create new shadow elements on current version of Chrome
# [01:46] <Pomax> hmm
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# [01:48] <Pomax> there's no pseudo class for "being pressed up" and "being pressed down"?
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# [01:53] <jarek> Pomax: there is :active pseudo class
# [01:54] <jarek> Pomax: but the demo is using standard HTML5 inputs, they just have fancy stylings
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# [01:59] <Pomax> yeah, I was looking at the CSS
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# [01:59] <Pomax> just wondering if there's a webkit pseudo class for "user pressing spinner up" and "down", for specific styling
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# [02:03] <jarek> I haven't heard of any vendor-prefixed pseudo classes or pseudo elements
# [02:03] <jarek> probably because CSS3 Selectors grammar does not allow them
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# [02:07] <jarek> wrong, it actually allows for something like ::-webkit-pressed
# [02:07] <jarek> or any other identifier
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# [02:09] <jarek> yeah, there is ::-webkit-selection, I can't think of anything else
# [02:11] <jarek> ::-webkit-scrollbar
# [02:11] <jarek> i think that's all
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# [02:21] <chuck_tes> hi sorry. i got sidetracked with a photoshop edit.
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# [02:22] <jarek> https://github.com/WebKit/webkit/blob/master/Source/WebCore/css/CSSSelector.cpp
# [02:22] <chuck_tes> i just tried using the p { text-align: center; } but it doesn't align it. it simply shows up on the page as "p { text-align: center; }". Should it be { text-align: center; } ?
# [02:22] <jarek> wow, there are 17 -webkit-* selectors
# [02:23] <jarek> I wonder where they are documented
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# [02:25] <jarek> chuck_tes: you don't put CSS between tags :|
# [02:26] <jarek> chuck_tes: select your paragraph with Firebug or Chrome Dev Tools and try playing around
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# [02:26] <chuck_tes> ok
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# [02:33] <chuck_tes> i got it. i see what you are tlaking about jarek. CSS is too controlling of the formatting of text. What I should have been doing instead was to place the text outside the CSS formatted box. By doing so I was indeed allowed to align text. I used your tex HELLO WORLD.
# [02:35] <chuck_tes> But in fact, I'm not really trying to align text. I'm tyring to align a link which is going to be for a downloadable pdf document. Logically where should I place the pdf file within my project folder. inside fo the "images folder" or the root directory where index.html, aboutme.html, ect.
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# [02:44] <jarek> chuck_tes: could you just provide a link to your site? It's rather hard to help you without seeing it
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# [02:45] <jarek> chuck_tes: you *should not* use , it works, but it's very unprofessional
# [02:46] <chuck_tes> Yeah I know. This isn't for a customer, its a personal project.
# [02:46] <chuck_tes> I don't do web desig by trade too.
# [02:53] <Pomax> also, css is never too controlling.
# [02:53] <Pomax> it does exactly what you tell it to do.
# [02:53] <chuck_tes> Yeah. I think I fixed it.
# [02:54] <Pomax> if you have <div id='a'>lol</div> then "p { text-align: center; }" will center align, for every paragraph, "div p { text....}" will center aling for all paragraphs inside divs, "#a p {...}" for every paragraph in your div "a", and "#b { ... }" only for that very specific paragraph.
# [02:54] <Pomax> so it's really up to you how specific you want to get.
# [02:56] <Pomax> and now to take out all these name anchors. It's funny how you can miss something like "you can hash link to ids" for ... well, a very long itme.
# [02:56] <Pomax> *time
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# [03:00] <chuck_tes> YES GOT IT!
# [03:02] <chuck_tes> I was trying to embed a link so that when a user clicks it, they are prompted to download a .pdf file....I placed the pdf file in the root directory of the website but I kept getting an error. Turns out you have to have a contiguous name for the .pdf. There can't be any whitespace in the filename. I learned something today.
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# [03:09] <chuck_tes> This upcoming section I have to confront seems like it will be the most difficult. I want to place a grid of thumbnails on the screen which, once clicked, show a large clear picture. I've seen nice variations of this process taking place. I have seen nice ones where the surrounding screen dims. I also have seen one in which a black bar expands horizontally and then vertically and then a crisp
# [03:09] <chuck_tes> clear image shows up. Is there a tutorial on how to do this?
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# [03:10] <chuck_tes> I think its called a slideshow?
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# [03:48] <chuck_tes> Do you know where I can find something like what I was tlaking about earlier?
# [03:48] <chuck_tes> A slodeshow kind of thing? Or a tutorial on how to do one?
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# [04:16] <chuck_tes> i want to make a slideshow but I don't want to use javascript or jquery. in your opinion, what would be the best embedded slideshow (flickr, picasa, ect) I can place on my site? Ideally I'm looking for something with rounde corners and/or dimming of the surrounding page when slideshow starts.
# [04:17] <chuck_tes> I'd like to use html. i don't want to mess around with the CSS really.
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# [04:27] <Shai-Tan> is there a decent html5 mailing list?
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# [04:44] <paul_irish> Shai-Tan: whatcha want on it
# [04:44] <Shai-Tan> just to ask humble newbie questions
# [04:45] <divya> ask here
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# [04:45] <Shai-Tan> here is fine while I am here, but I am often out, so I can ask on a list, and then go about my day
# [04:46] <paul_irish> stackoverflow might be a better location
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# [05:47] <qawsedrf> is window.history html5 thing ?
# [05:54] <ryanseddon> qawsedrf: pushState and relpaceState are but the rest has been around for ages
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# [05:58] <qawsedrf> ryanseddon: aah, how do i check whether it exi9sts or not so that i can write alternative code for older browsers like IE that do not support it ? if( typeof window.history === 'object' && typeof window.history.replaceState === 'function') ?
# [05:58] <ryanseddon> qawsedrf: Modernizr :)
# [05:58] <qawsedrf> heh
# [05:59] <qawsedrf> where does it states that those 2 are part of html5 api ?
# [05:59] <qawsedrf> the mdn does not ? :(
# [05:59] <qawsedrf> i dont wanna use modernizr, is that code good enough ?
# [06:00] <paul_irish> it's run daily on millions of sites
# [06:00] <ryanseddon> qawsedrf: return !!(window.history && history.pushState);
# [06:00] <qawsedrf> what runs daily ?
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# [06:01] <paul_irish> modernizr
# [06:01] <paul_irish> i'm just saying the code is good. it has the most reliable feature detects available.
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# [06:01] <qawsedrf> no doubt
# [06:01] <paul_irish> in this case, the detect is simple, but i just recommend looking it up in the modernizr source
# [06:02] <qawsedrf> aah ok, i will do so now
# [06:02] <ryanseddon> qawsedrf: and always check the spec http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-history-interface
# [06:02] <ryanseddon> qawsedrf: MDN is a wiki too so if you know it's missing or got incorrect stuff update it
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# [06:06] <qawsedrf> the !! is cool thought
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# [06:34] <ryanseddon> paul_irish: i'm getting undefined for websocket binary plugin on the test suite page
# [06:35] <ryanseddon> i'll fix it now
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# [06:45] <ryanseddon> done
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# [07:24] <paul_irish> ryanseddon: cool. i was thinking about leave it be truthyfalsy
# [07:24] <paul_irish> but thats stupid.
# [07:24] <paul_irish> better to just fix
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# [07:28] <ryanseddon> paul_irish: yeah better to be consistent and an actual boolean
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# [07:32] <chuck_tes> If making a portfolio/resume website, which is the best top level domain to go with? xxxxxx.me, xxxxxxx.info, ect?
# [07:32] <chuck_tes> for myself
# [07:33] <gnarf> i like the .me's but to each his own
# [07:33] <gnarf> whichever you want
# [07:34] <gnarf> mine's .net
# [07:34] <OzDave_imac> whatever you can get, A lot of domains are gone so best be flexible.
# [07:34] <gnarf> ;)
# [07:34] <shwetank> try for .com, .net if possible, otherwise I would say .me
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# [07:40] <Pomax> portfolio for what. business purpose? why not go for a .com? personal stuff that bears no strict professional relevance? doesn't really matter then. *.me is nice, but if someone judges you on you tld, something is seriously wrong >_>
# [07:41] <Pomax> *on your
# [07:43] <tw2113> http://techsplurge.com/5672/firefox-8-chrome-15-chrome-longer-lightest-web-browser-comparison/
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# [07:57] <JonathanNeal> hi
# [07:57] <tw2113> yo
# [07:58] <JonathanNeal> yo yo yo
# [07:58] <JonathanNeal> how are you?
# [07:59] <tw2113> i have my beer'
# [07:59] <chuck_tes> well tis for like applications, so employers can see my resume and stuff. i think im gonna go with .me
# [07:59] <tw2113> i can't complain
# [07:59] <chuck_tes> like applications for a job
# [07:59] <tw2113> i have my resume on a .com
# [07:59] <JonathanNeal> glad to hear, tw2113
# [07:59] <JonathanNeal> i put my resume on my website too.
# [08:00] <JonathanNeal> not sure about keeping it there though, what with my address exposed.
# [08:00] <tw2113> i don't have much for a traditional portfolio, but i turned my resume into a website
# [08:00] <tw2113> michaelbeckwithsresume.com
# [08:01] <tw2113> i do indeed feel awesome for that domain
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# [08:02] <chuck_tes> nice site
# [08:03] <JonathanNeal> Nice, tw2113
# [08:03] <JonathanNeal> So you just include your city.
# [08:03] <chuck_tes> you think I could use a .info for resume website?
# [08:03] <tw2113> what would stop you chuck_tes ?
# [08:03] <chuck_tes> nothing lol. just want to gauge peoples reactions to TLDs.
# [08:04] <tw2113> i tend to not worry about the TLDs more than the content they present
# [08:04] <tw2113> should I include more JonathanNeal ?
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# [08:06] <JonathanNeal> I like it. Mine is weird and different and only meant for print.
# [08:06] <JonathanNeal> i'll send you a link.
# [08:06] <JonathanNeal> what do you think?
# [08:07] <tw2113> needs bottom padding
# [08:07] <tw2113> but trumps mine by having a picture
# [08:08] <JonathanNeal> tw2113: yea or i could just remove padding from the top.
# [08:08] <tw2113> you also have me beat in js experience, but that's most everyone in here
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# [08:10] <tw2113> i'll claim a leg up in that i made targeted versions of my resume to include a cover letter :D
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# [08:11] <tw2113> and all the general info needs to only be updated from 1 spot :D
# [08:11] <JonathanNeal> tw2113: mine was made one night based on an email someone wrote about me.
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# [08:11] <tw2113> forgot about the mobile version too :D
# [08:11] <tw2113> i had fun creating it
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# [08:11] <JonathanNeal> i hope you gain any experience you're looking for that you think i have
# [08:12] <JonathanNeal> irc is a good place to learn all about this stuff, it's where i learned it, and then the rest is just time.
# [08:12] <tw2113> i just need to find the time to invest a solid amount of time to really getting javascript
# [08:12] <tw2113> html/css/etc I do fine with thanks to the help of WordPress
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# [10:10] <moo-_-> any idea what Mobile Safari's "Zoom on select input" feature would be called?
# [10:10] <moo-_-> to point me to the right direction to disable it
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# [11:33] <simenbrekken> Is there any way of getting anti-aliasing on embedded fonts via CSS for IE?
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# [11:46] <martndemus> simenbrekken: nope
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# [12:03] <moo-_-> any good source data for CSS media queries for mobile?
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# [12:06] <JakeA> simenbrekken: Yes. Cleartype only antialiases horizontally, which I guess is what you're seeing
# [12:07] <JakeA> But cleartype only works on truetype outlines. If your font has postscript outlines it'll fallback to standards antialiasing
# [12:07] <JakeA> which is much better for larger font sizes
# [12:08] <JakeA> Here's a comparison http://www.slideshare.net/jaffathecake/in-your-fontface/73
# [12:08] <JakeA> Fontforge can do the conversion, there's a guide here http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/faq.html#outline-conversion
# [12:09] <Echoes2> hi guys, can you give me some reasons why you shouldn't use custom opengraph namespaces with html5
# [12:09] <Echoes2> or some of the problems associated with it
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# [12:17] <simenbrekken> JakeA: I'm forced to use typekit so I can't control much
# [12:17] <JakeA> You'll have to look for postscript fonts on there then
# [12:22] <simenbrekken> JakeA: Thanks, I'll look into that.
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# [14:29] <DEac-> hi
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# [14:30] <DEac-> it's allowed to ask something about css3? i think yes, excuse me, if not.
# [14:31] <Fatbat> #css is a more appropriate place to ask
# [14:32] <DEac-> i've bar with inline-elements. in one element there should be a box with block-elements. i tried it and the blockelements are displayed bottom the last inline-element. how i can fix it?
# [14:32] <DEac-> ok, i will ask there too
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# [14:34] <JakeA> DEac-: Use jsfiddle.com to create an example, helps people visualise the problem and help debug
# [14:35] <DEac-> ok
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# [14:42] <DEac-> http://jsfiddle.net/kj934/ < i created an example
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# [14:49] <JakeA> DEac-: Is this the effect you're looking for? http://jsfiddle.net/kj934/1/
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# [14:52] <DEac-> JakeA: ah thanks! that it is.
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# [15:03] <shevy> hey DEac- aren't you a ruby guy? :)
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# [15:49] <dr0id> inline-block to the rescue!
# [15:50] <drublic> dr0id: in IE7 you might want to use `zoom: 1` in connection with `display: inline-block`; not working in IE6 though
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# [15:51] <dr0id> IE can go and diaf
# [15:51] <drublic> dr0id: word!
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# [15:53] <moo-_-> IE7 can do inline-blocks?
# [15:53] <moo-_-> did not know
# [15:53] <moo-_-> what a marvellous piece of software
# [15:54] <dr0id> IE6 can too :P
# [15:54] <dr0id> but only on inline elements
# [15:54] <dr0id> altho there are hax like he said with zoom and so on, but as I said too, it can go and diaf
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# [15:56] <drublic> moo-_-: you can do the `display: inline-block`-behavior with `float: left; display: inline;` in IE6. but it's not exactly the same.
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# [15:57] <moo-_-> drublic: that's why I asked
# [15:57] <moo-_-> float is not inline-block
# [15:57] <drublic> moo-_-: didn't see you're question tbf. sry.
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# [17:08] <obert-> xhtml closing tags mode on or off ?
# [17:08] <obert-> in html5
# [17:09] <JakeA> Either
# [17:09] <obert-> would be preferable?
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# [17:09] <obert-> in some ways? no?
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# [17:10] <JakeA> The browser does nothing with them, but if they help you as a developer, use them
# [17:10] <dr0id> heh
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# [17:10] <obert-> i like html4 syntax:p
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# [17:10] <dr0id> and what is the html4 syntax ?
# [17:10] <obert-> but i see xhtml closing syntax in web examples
# [17:10] <obert-> no />
# [17:10] <dr0id> then use that
# [17:11] <obert-> though there was some benefits to use /> instead > for some reasons. like js compatibility for instance
# [17:11] <JakeA> Nope, js doesn't care about them
# [17:11] <dr0id> heh
# [17:11] <obert-> meh ok. thanks
# [17:11] <dr0id> altho close tags like p, li, etc. for sanity
# [17:11] <JakeA> Agreed
# [17:11] <obert-> html4 syntax is good enough then ;)
# [17:12] <JakeA> All you get from /> is some way towards XML compatibility
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# [17:12] <obert-> nono please kill me :p
# [17:12] <JakeA> haha, exactly
# [17:12] <obert-> html isi enought
# [17:12] * dr0id kills obert-
# [17:12] <obert-> thanks
# [17:12] <dr0id> y u no die ? :(
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# [17:12] <obert-> . . .
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# [17:13] <dr0id> . .
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# [17:13] <martndemus> dot dot dot
# [17:13] <dr0id> dot dot
# [17:13] <obert-> i have to design for mobile without a mobile
# [17:14] <dr0id> resize your browser window then, lol
# [17:14] <obert-> i should get an droid
# [17:14] <obert-> an an droid
# [17:14] <obert-> not sure if i arrive at 480px
# [17:14] <obert-> seems not
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# [17:15] <obert-> buy me a phone!
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# [17:16] <obert-> stupid androids
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# [17:19] <ryan_tait> try the ripple extension for google chrome ... can test mobile phone screen sizes
# [17:20] <ryan_tait> not the greatest but it helps
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# [17:37] <martndemus> obert-: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/idhfcdbheobinplaamokffboaccidbal best extension ever
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# [17:37] <jonathansnook> obert-: there are emulators. Not ideal but it'll do.
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# [17:39] <obert-> thanks
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# [18:03] <BrianBlakely> hiya
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# [18:05] <divya> yo
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# [18:09] <danielfilho> hey! :)
# [18:12] <ryan_tait> yo
# [18:12] <ryan_tait> like the redesign divya
# [18:13] <divya> thanks ryan_tait!
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# [18:14] <ryan_tait> hey divya... for the previous next links on your new site .. am i suppose to only see bordered boxes?
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# [18:15] <divya> if you use chrome on windows yeah ryan_tait :)
# [18:15] <divya> chrome has booogs with unicode.
# [18:15] <ryan_tait> hehe ok just checking
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# [18:17] <ryan_tait> damn booogs
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# [18:18] <savr> hi
# [18:19] <savr> what is the hourly rate for a good html5/css3 design firm?
# [18:19] <BrianBlakely> divya: I'll be honest. I praise the PT Sans choice (I just did the same with my current project), but the heavy fabric background washes out the excellent typography…
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# [18:20] <divya> haha its not actually my choice it was part of octopress BrianBlakely
# [18:20] <divya> but is it really that heavy?
# [18:21] <savr> people capable of designing something good like the verge
# [18:21] <divya> reminds me i need to create humans.txt
# [18:21] <martndemus> https://github.com/martndemus/Feed-The-Web-Dev @ divya
# [18:21] <BrianBlakely> divya: On my screen (MBP), contrast is reduced significantly due to visual noise
# [18:21] <divya> sweet whens it public martndemus!
# [18:22] <divya> BrianBlakely: oh okay, i could fade the bg more.
# [18:22] <martndemus> when i have given it enough shape
# [18:23] <BrianBlakely> divya: mm, or reduce the amount of noise, depending on the flexibility you have with that graphic
# [18:23] <divya> i guess i can blur it a bit.
# [18:23] <divya> BrianBlakely: you can also create an issue on the project on github.
# [18:23] <divya> damn if only there was a github bot here.
# [18:24] <BrianBlakely> divya: I thought I recalled people doing Github things in here… maybe it was a dream >_>
# [18:24] <divya> that was for movethewebforward where a github bot just mentioned latest commits
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# [18:33] <DEac-> shevy: yes, i'm a ruby guy! (entschuldige die verspaetete antwort, ich bin unmittelbar nach heim gegangen)
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# [18:33] <shevy> yo no problem
# [18:33] <shevy> just wasn't sure, already thought I mis-remembered :>
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# [18:34] <JonathanNeal> hi
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# [18:36] <danielfilho> hey Jon :)
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# [18:37] <Pomax> right, this is getting ridiculous. time to extend this css macros thing with global macros =)
# [18:38] <DEac-> shevy: and i remember, you are an a1-customer.
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# [18:42] <shevy> hehehe yeah
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# [18:51] <kevindougans> howdy
# [18:51] <kevindougans> just read move the web forward
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# [18:52] <kevindougans> thought i'd join in
# [18:52] <kevindougans> much go on in here?
# [18:52] <frank_salim> kevindougans: parties all the time
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# [18:52] <kevindougans> haha
# [18:52] <kevindougans> i can tell, can hardly hear you from the noise ;)
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# [18:53] <shevy> we have a party
# [18:53] <shevy> to celebrate #html6
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# [18:54] <kevindougans> i'm still happy enough to dance around at html5 :)
# [18:55] <kevindougans> brought the fun back in to web development for me
# [18:55] <kevindougans> was hating it for a few years there
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# [18:55] <kevindougans> remember the first time i learned it about 97, read one of the o'reilly books
# [18:55] <kevindougans> loved it
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# [18:56] <kevindougans> till about 2004/2005 then got too complicated to do the simplest things evenly across all browsers
# [18:56] <kevindougans> fun making something awesome, but not fun having to recreate it 4 times for each different browser
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# [19:08] <danielfilho> kevindougans: good to know that somehow, mwf encouraged you to get involved :D
# [19:08] * ericduran is now known as ericduran|food
# [19:08] <danielfilho> any doubts, just throw here and we all will try to help you =]
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# [19:11] <frank_salim> so RFC 6455 The WebSocket Protocol has been published
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# [19:12] <frank_salim> time for me to break out the champagne
# [19:12] <kevindougans> i've been encouraged for a long time… nobody would listen to me back when i first started feeling like getting involved because i was pushing too much simplicity and then got disheartned. think people confused my desire for simplicity with laziness. it wasn't. it was just so we could all spend more time being creative as opposed to re-inventing the wheel again. anyway, when i read the mwf i feel like we're on the same boat.
# [19:12] <kevindougans> whole <!doctype html>… heaven!
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# [19:12] <martndemus> check it out: http://i.imgur.com/HoTve.png (cc @ divya)
# [19:13] <kevindougans> yeh i seen some tweets about it, will check it out after takin my dog for another walk.
# [19:13] <Pomax> I shall celebrate websocket the very instance browsers offer a giant button in the primary UI that lets me disable websocket connections.
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# [19:13] <divya> sgtm martndemus
# [19:13] <divya> put it out!
# [19:14] <Pomax> until then, it's supercool, and the best security risk ever.
# [19:14] <martndemus> in what way? as in on a webserver?
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# [19:14] <frank_salim> Pomax: no way :)
# [19:14] <martndemus> or as in public opensource project?
# [19:15] <divya> on a server
# [19:15] <divya> it is already open source no?
# [19:15] <frank_salim> Pomax: if you are aware of security threats related to websocket, yesterday was the time to step forward :)
# [19:15] <Pomax> that's not how security threats work
# [19:15] <Pomax> you go "this technology is a go!"
# [19:16] <Pomax> then half a year later you discover people have been exploiting it for serious cash for half a year already.
# [19:16] <martndemus> yeah, but like i meant, people can participate in developping kind of open source
# [19:16] <Pomax> I love websockets from a "what I can do with them" perspective.
# [19:16] <Pomax> I just want the ability to turn that stuff off immediately, without having to jump through seven menus in a browser.
# [19:16] <Pomax> or, worse, not even have the option to.
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# [19:17] <frank_salim> Pomax: do you have javascript enabled?
# [19:17] <Pomax> naturally.
# [19:17] <Pomax> turning off javascript != turning off websockets
# [19:17] <frank_salim> because if you are paranoid to the point of disabling individual browser features, maybe you shouldn't have javascript enabled. or any plugins at all
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# [19:17] <frank_salim> do you have flash running by default?
# [19:17] <Pomax> turning off javascript is like removing the roads just to stop trucks from driving on them =P
# [19:17] <Pomax> no I do not.
# [19:18] <Pomax> flash runs on a need-to-run basis
# [19:19] <Pomax> there's a difference between "general script stuff" and "network connections that you do cannot control, and can drop content in a location that you hope is secure" =)
# [19:19] <Pomax> but this is a browser qualm more than a websockets as technology qualm.
# [19:19] <frank_salim> ok, i have you now
# [19:19] <Pomax> sweet
# [19:19] <Pomax> hit me
# [19:20] <frank_salim> have you somehow disabled cross-origin script tags, iframe, and cross-origin XHR?
# [19:20] <frank_salim> websocket is hardly the only way to send data out into the world
# [19:20] <Pomax> yeah, noscript generally takes care of that for me. I whitelist sites.
# [19:20] <Pomax> if it blocks websockets as a dedicated option, that'll be quite nice.
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# [19:21] <Pomax> if it lobs it under "javascript", it shall be most sucky
# [19:21] <Pomax> it's amusing how XSS restictions have basically ensures the iframe will never die.
# [19:21] <Pomax> *ensured
# [19:21] <frank_salim> yeah
# [19:21] <Pomax> but I have you too, now
# [19:22] <frank_salim> if you're using noscript to block x-origin XHR, i see why you would also want control over ws
# [19:22] <Pomax> just because there are alternative, possibly equally or even greater security risks, does not work as a justification for yet another =)
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# [19:25] <frank_salim> Pomax: it does, if they fit into the same security model. it sounds like you want something stricter in which the user has to approve cross-origin communication
# [19:25] <frank_salim> which might be for the better. i don't have a strong opinion there
# [19:26] <frank_salim> does noscript prevent cross-origin image tags? i imagine that would break a lot of pages
# [19:27] <Pomax> if someone adds more buttons, I want to be able to press them.
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# [19:27] <Pomax> websockets is something very distinct and I just want to be able to control it
# [19:27] <Pomax> in the same way I get to control my cookies, cache, history, etc.
# [19:27] <Pomax> it's new browser functionality with the potential to be abused.
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# [19:29] <frank_salim> i guess i'm prepared to be surprised
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# [19:29] <Pomax> (don't get me wrong, I want web sockets. I just also want to be able to say "no thanks, I have no idea who you are, or why a sushi place's website should need a websocket connection")
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# [19:32] <frank_salim> Pomax: everyone knows that sushi websites are all flash with PDF menus
# [19:33] <kevindougans> mine isn't
# [19:33] <kevindougans> (flash with pdf menus)
# [19:33] <frank_salim> kevindougans: that's great! too many are...
# [19:33] <Pomax> restaurant sites are going to be the first category of sites that massively abuse websockets
# [19:33] <Pomax> "BUT YOU WANT THIS AMBIANCE MOVIE BACKGROUND STREAMED OVER A WEBSOCKET, IT'S THE EXPERIENCE!"
# [19:34] <kevindougans> lol
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# [19:35] <kevindougans> it is funny how all restaurant owners want that
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# [19:36] <kevindougans> i work for a company that owns 14 bars and restaurants. and they constantly ask for things like websites that change the background colour depending the time of the day
# [19:36] <kevindougans> background music
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# [19:39] <frank_salim> Pomax: I've had similar security discussions many times over the last few years
# [19:39] <frank_salim> but now there is an RFC, which makes me pretty happy
# [19:39] <frank_salim> I have to go to a meeting. I'll be back for another victory dance later
# [19:39] <phrearch> hm, maybe interesting to work on a websocket handler for django?
# [19:39] <phrearch> i already got some implementation. only needs some more refactoring
# [19:40] <phrearch> at least if python is your thing :)
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# [20:06] <frank_salim> hello again
# [20:07] <ryan_tait> hello
# [20:07] <ryan_tait> this is funny: http://comicsansproject.tumblr.com/
# [20:08] <tw2113> my eyes
# [20:08] <tw2113> they burn
# [20:08] <ryan_tait> lol
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# [20:18] <tw2113> woohoo! Firefox will be getting a developer toolbar for all their new stuff eventually
# [20:20] <thatryan> ssshh
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# [20:21] <kevindougans> lol at comic sans project. was only talking with a mate the other day about how comic sans should be destroyed forever. that has to be the first use of comic sans i've seen since 95 that isn't that bad
# [20:22] <kevindougans> well the twitter, android and tumblr logos. the rest are terrible and should be burned at the stake with the ttf file
# [20:22] <ryan_tait> lol
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# [20:31] <BrianBlakely> Many of the Comic Sans project images look quite nice, actually. Haha!
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# [20:34] <kevindougans> i was surprised. but still, only 3 of them get my vote.
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# [20:48] <paul_irish> http://paulirish.com/i/72d060.png
# [20:48] <frank_salim> cute
# [20:49] <frank_salim> paul_irish: did you just make that?
# [20:49] <paul_irish> a colleague here on the chrome team did
# [20:49] <frank_salim> cool
# [20:51] <thatryan> man you work must be fun :)
# [20:51] <kevindougans> i'd be impressed if you could get it to roll around, jump out, shout html5rocks then go back in to the screen, all in 3d
# [20:51] <kevindougans> and css
# [20:51] <kevindougans> :)
# [20:52] <ryan_tait> looks like it's freaked out by having html 5 tags pinned to it's head
# [20:52] <ryan_tait> cruelty to whatever it is
# [20:53] <Pomax> bunnies only shout. they do not endorse.
# [20:53] <kevindougans> anyone seen a recent/up to date list of the most useful html5/wev dev related websites, (i.e. http://www.modernizr.com/ and fitvids.js, etc)
# [20:53] <kevindougans> i seen one not so long ago but must have forgot to bookmark/tag it correctly
# [20:54] <kevindougans> it was where i first discovered html5boilerplate and would like to see if theres any new goodies floating around
# [20:55] <wturrell> movethewebforward.org ?
# [20:55] <martndemus> guys
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# [20:56] <martndemus> Whats a good and low cost webhost?
# [20:56] <martndemus> all i need is php and shell acces
# [20:56] <martndemus> and ofc php
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# [20:56] <martndemus> eh ftp
# [20:57] <paul_irish> kevindougans: http://html5shelf.tumblr.com/ was pretty good
# [20:57] <paul_irish> dunno if @tommylee still updates it
# [20:58] <kevindougans> martndemus: i use a uk host but thinking of switching to hostgator
# [20:58] <kevindougans> paul_irish: cheers, i'll have a look
# [20:58] <martndemus> also it needs to be pay per month =D
# [20:58] <martndemus> or under 15 euros
# [20:59] <kevindougans> pretty sure hostgator does that
# [21:00] <kevindougans> yeh nice one paul_irish thats exactly what i was looking for, some new tools and toys to mess around with
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# [21:00] <kevindougans> query timeline is gonna be the first one :-)
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# [21:04] <martndemus> ouch domains arent cheap @ hostgator =D
# [21:04] <tw2113> $15?
# [21:05] <martndemus> budget == €15
# [21:05] <martndemus> =D
# [21:05] <ryan_tait> i heard good things about name.com after all that domain name stealing went on
# [21:06] <thatryan> ive just moved two of my sites to heroku.com
# [21:06] <thatryan> pretty rad, git deployment
# [21:06] <kevindougans> yeh if $15 is your budget i'd go for heroku
# [21:06] <kevindougans> free subdomain
# [21:06] <kevindougans> free hosting
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# [21:07] <martndemus> im not after a subdomain :P
# [21:07] <thatryan> however heroku is ruby centric, php is in the works i think
# [21:07] <martndemus> i can get 100s of subdomains of my own domain
# [21:07] <thatryan> phpfog.com is like php version of heroku i think :)
# [21:07] <martndemus> but name.com looks good
# [21:07] <martndemus> (free hosting for 1 month =D)
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# [21:08] <kevindougans> i think you've got high expectations for a domain name and hosting with shell access for $15
# [21:08] <thatryan> lol
# [21:08] <martndemus> =D
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# [21:11] <kevindougans> phpfog looks good. wish it was around 10 years ago heh
# [21:12] <thatryan> it does look sweet, i found it after heroku though, still may give it a try. i moved two sites to jekyll/octopress and it is so rad to deploy via git
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# [21:14] <kevindougans> yeh i'm on a cloud package in the uk at the minute, considering moving to host gator cause even though i'm £20 a month I don't get shell access and could do with it for apps like magento
# [21:15] <kevindougans> but phpfog would be nice in mean time for sites in development
# [21:15] <kevindougans> deploy via git is something i miss since moving to a smaller company
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# [21:16] <kevindougans> not even going to mention the local provider the company i work for uses, just under 5,000 a year they've been charging them and since its a gastronomy company they've had no idea about tech related stuff and thought they were on a good deal
# [21:17] <kevindougans> for a similar package with my uk host its like 1000 a year
# [21:17] <kevindougans> and with gosthator its like $500 a year
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# [21:21] <martndemus> omg phpfog is credit card only :(
# [21:21] <kevindougans> yup, just signed up to phpfog and love it
# [21:21] <martndemus> ffing americanos
# [21:22] <kevindougans> credit card?
# [21:22] <martndemus> credit cards should die
# [21:22] <kevindougans> what are you buying?
# [21:22] <kevindougans> how else do you expect to pay?
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# [21:22] <martndemus> paypal, bank transfer
# [21:23] <kevindougans> what are you trying to buy
# [21:23] <kevindougans> domain is $5 a month
# [21:23] <kevindougans> you only have $5
# [21:23] <kevindougans> you want hosting for 1 month?
# [21:23] <martndemus> i want a domain for $5 a month
# [21:23] <martndemus> but i dont own a credit card
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# [21:24] <kevindougans> thats $60 a year
# [21:24] <kevindougans> you could get a godaddy.com domain and host gator for the same or less
# [21:25] <ryan_tait> i use this company for some personal site.. you can advertise green energy too :) 3.95 a month and accept paypal
# [21:25] <ryan_tait> http://www.hostpapa.com/
# [21:26] <ryan_tait> i dont know about shell access though you would need to ask i use it for personal sites and small clients
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# [21:26] <kevindougans> i know a really good host thats in europe that takes paypal
# [21:26] <kevindougans> and in your price range
# [21:27] <kevindougans> http://goo.gl/hmhpW
# [21:28] <kevindougans> i've been using them for a year
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# [21:28] <kevindougans> i've got an external uptime monitor and not had 1 single second of down time
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# [21:29] <kevindougans> Shell Access and Domain
# [21:29] <kevindougans> for £50 a year
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# [21:39] <wtfizzle> Has anybody else experienced issues with writing and removing HTML5 videos causing extreme lag over time?
# [21:39] <wtfizzle> I have a web app that swaps HTML5 videos (the video tag is removed and a new one is generated)
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# [21:41] <wtfizzle> But after a couple of swaps, I'm experiencing extreme lag in Firefox
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# [21:49] <tw2113> thatryan you're RTing yourself :P
# [21:50] <moo-_-> wtfizzle: report it as a bug
# [21:50] <moo-_-> wtfizzle: sounds like caching and/or garbage collection issues
# [21:50] <moo-_-> wtfizzle: do jsperf.net test case and file it @ bugzilla.mozilla.org
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# [21:51] <moo-_-> also might be platform specific
# [21:51] <moo-_-> or related to the certain video containers
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# [21:52] <thatryan> yeah that was kinda fucked up though, he asked people to not post it and everyone is
# [21:52] <wtfizzle> Hm, I'll definitely do that, but does anybody know of any workarounds (or even know of the issue)?
# [21:52] <wtfizzle> I'm running this on FF8 and Mac OS X
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# [21:56] <wtfizzle> Ah, looks like it's already logged as a bug by somebody else
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# [22:08] <jarek> Hello
# [22:08] <jarek> is it allowed to use JavaScript files with extensions other than *.js and *.json?
# [22:09] <jarek> as long as they are served with proper MIME types, I should be fine, right?
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# [22:10] <paul_irish> jarek: yes
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# [22:10] <jarek> I was thinking about using .proto extension for files that contains prototype objects and .mixin for mixins
# [22:10] <jarek> but I haven't seen this convention anywhere
# [22:11] <paul_irish> user scipts are *.user.js
# [22:11] <jarek> s/contains/contain
# [22:11] <frank_salim> jarek: .proto files are often used for protocol buffers
# [22:11] <paul_irish> i would just do the same
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# [22:12] <jarek> hmm... *.proto.js and *.mixin.js look reasonable
# [22:12] <kevindougans> or if you wanted a reminder then .proto.js
# [22:12] <kevindougans> beat me to it
# [22:13] <frank_salim> i like it
# [22:14] <jarek> what is the best way to explain which module methods are public?
# [22:14] * frank_salim gives his unsolicited opinion freely
# [22:14] <jarek> I'm not a big fan of underscore convention
# [22:15] <jarek> JSDoc is a bit verbose
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# [22:15] <jarek> http://code.google.com/p/jsdoc-toolkit/wiki/TagPublic
# [22:16] <jarek> it says I should tag each method either as public or private
# [22:16] <jarek> it would make more sense to have standardized way to say this at the top of the file
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# [22:24] <frank_salim> jarek: there is no single best way out of context. jsdoc is verbose, but it is somewhat reasonable and there are tools that work with it
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# [23:00] <martndemus> @ divya http://martndemus.dyndns-server.com/ , but it's only a staging server
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# [23:10] <divya> so where do people go to find opml of this feed martndemus
# [23:10] <divya> also like where can they suggest feeds to add?
# [23:10] <martndemus> it's alpha
# [23:11] <martndemus> at this moment i add feeds through the command line
# [23:11] <divya> ah k
# [23:11] <martndemus> i don't intend on making it too public just yet
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# [23:12] <martndemus> I wan't to fiddle with it first + move it of my @home server to a webhosting company
# [23:12] <divya> k
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# [23:12] <martndemus> give it a few days :)
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# [23:17] <paul_irish> TIL that text-rendering:optimizeLegibility can be declared in the @fontface declaratoin
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# [23:21] <hober> paul_irish: not according to the latest CSS3 Fonts ED
# [23:22] <hober> (assuming i'm reading it correctly)
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# [23:22] <divya> wouldnt it be something browserss should do automatically
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# [23:23] <divya> why the eff should the dev say optimize 'legibility'
# [23:23] <divya> assuming thats what it does.
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# [23:25] <BrianBlakely> Does Android 2.1 not support webfonts?
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# [23:27] <martndemus> question: if i 'tap' an element that has different :hover styling, how do i get it to unhover when i release my finger from the screen?
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# [23:32] <BrianBlakely> martndemus: I've found that I need to give another element focus
# [23:34] <martndemus> how?
# [23:34] <martndemus> javascript?
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# [23:35] <BrianBlakely> martndemus: Oh… *programmatically* … haha, that would make sense, wouldn't it. No way that I know of. You could indeed try initiating a focus event on a hidden anchor tag or something.
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# Session Close: Tue Dec 13 00:00:00 2011

The end :)