/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-01-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jan 01 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  7. # [00:03] <jarek> Hi
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  10. # [00:03] <jarek> what's the fastest way to get element position relative to viewport?
  11. # [00:03] <jarek> getComputedStyle() seems to have performance issues
  12. # [00:04] <jarek> and element.offsetLeft/element.offsetTop is relative to positioned parent
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  14. # [00:08] <jubby> jarek: Sounds like a javascript question
  15. # [00:08] <jarek> jubby: yes, it's JavaScript question
  16. # [00:09] <jarek> jarek: don't tell me this channel is only for discussing HTML tags :P
  17. # [00:09] <jubby> jarek: Would probably be better suited for a javascript room, no?
  18. # [00:09] <tw2113> we're not limited by specific topic
  19. # [00:09] <jubby> jarek: Right now it looks like this channel is for people who left their computers on to go to a party somewhere =P
  20. # [00:10] <tw2113> this room is kind of a grand scope of these emerging technologies
  21. # [00:10] <jarek> jubby: not sure what you are talking about, this is nerd channel
  22. # [00:11] <tw2113> BUT sometimes going to the javascript channel can get responses a bit faster
  23. # [00:11] <tw2113> sometimes
  24. # [00:11] <jarek> I asked the question on both channels...
  25. # [00:12] <tw2113> then i see no wrong being done :D
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  50. # [00:50] <sundiver1> http://www.anno1777.com/index.php?i=122128
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  134. # [03:52] <devongovett> happy new year everyone!
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  147. # [04:28] <tw2113> Fx 4Life!
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  197. # [07:03] <tw2113> are you in 2012 yet tantek ?
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  286. # [10:44] <mr_lou> Happy New Year all.
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  288. # [10:49] <NathanDavid> Happy New Year
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  317. # [11:53] <tantek> happy new year tw2113!
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  346. # [12:54] <deasy> hi
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  353. # [13:27] <onla> what's the best way to include a site-wide navigation menu on all pages of the site ? I wish I could avoid server-side solutions.. I read about javascript and <object> or <iframe> , but what should it be
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  357. # [13:34] * Parts: dangerousdave (~dangerous@78.156.71.46) ("Linkinus - http://linkinus.com")
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  361. # [13:47] <onla> also what should be the choice of my database, when I want multiple people to access it, so I guess that should be a server-side
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  365. # [13:50] <onla> "The Web Applications Working Group continues work on two other storage-related specifications: Web Storage and Indexed Database API."
  366. # [13:52] <onla> both of those are client-side ?
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  384. # [14:27] <Pomax> both of those are client side.
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  402. # [14:48] <aitiba> hi
  403. # [14:49] <aitiba> I have a question about local storage but I would like to know if this this channel is a ggod ponit to ask
  404. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> Shoot
  405. # [14:49] <mr_lou> aitiba, Depends who's awake when you ask.
  406. # [14:50] <Ms2ger> But if you don't ask, nobody will answer
  407. # [14:50] <mr_lou> If you're in luck, it's a polite person who'll help you. But it could also be an arrogant bastard. IRC is like that.
  408. # [14:50] <Ms2ger> Nah, I'm the only arrogant bastard around here ;)
  409. # [14:51] <aitiba> I would like to have local storage on my app. At first I think that web sql storage would be a good option but I read that is deprecated and the recoemndations is to use indexeddb
  410. # [14:51] <aitiba> right?
  411. # [14:52] <Ms2ger> Right
  412. # [14:53] <Pomax> although depending on how complex your data is, you can also consider using localStorage
  413. # [14:54] <Ms2ger> Indeed
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  415. # [14:54] <aitiba> localstorage and web sql storage are the same? the first is key value and the other is sql?
  416. # [14:54] <Ms2ger> But I guess that if you're considering SQL, you might want something more powerful than that :)
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  418. # [14:56] <Pomax> localStorage is essentially key/value pairs.
  419. # [14:59] <aitiba> so therea re thre ways to storage data on local: 1. SQL storage (witht uses SQL statments), indexedDB (use index) and localStorage (key-value) right?
  420. # [14:59] <Ms2ger> Sounds right
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  422. # [14:59] <Ms2ger> And cookies, I guess
  423. # [15:00] <aitiba> ok
  424. # [15:00] <Pomax> I don't know if SQL is actually still current for clientside
  425. # [15:00] <aitiba> the omplementation of that technologies are ok for the most used web navigators?
  426. # [15:00] <Ms2ger> Well, SQL is deprecated, of course
  427. # [15:01] <Pomax> "at the client".
  428. # [15:01] <aitiba> why is deprecated?
  429. # [15:01] <aitiba> at the client
  430. # [15:01] <Pomax> because SQL itself is hardly deprecated, no matter how loud the NoSQL yells
  431. # [15:01] <Ms2ger> Well, yes, this is #html5 :)
  432. # [15:01] <Pomax> *NoSQL crowd
  433. # [15:02] <aitiba> so Web SQL storage may use with node.js for example?
  434. # [15:02] <Pomax> node.js is a serverside technology.
  435. # [15:02] <Ms2ger> I rather doubt someone would implement it for node.js
  436. # [15:03] <Pomax> sqlite binding probably already exists.
  437. # [15:03] <Pomax> in fact, two projects for it on github
  438. # [15:03] <aitiba> so my idea is to create a basic example that save the data on client an when have an internet coneccion upload this data to a MySQL database
  439. # [15:04] <Pomax> as for why SQL has been abandoned: http://dev.w3.org/html5/webdatabase/#sql
  440. # [15:04] <Pomax> aitiba, does it have to already be SQL at the client.
  441. # [15:04] <Pomax> or does it only have to be SQL once it hits your database backend
  442. # [15:05] <Pomax> because a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that because it has to be X at the server, it has to be X before it's sent to the server, too
  443. # [15:05] <Pomax> if you can make your client senda JSON object, for instance, there is no reason whatsoever to get the data stored at the client as SQL records.
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  445. # [15:06] <aitiba> t do that I need: idexedDB or localstorage to client stoage, offline posibilitys right?
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  447. # [15:07] <Pomax> indeed. if your data can be easily (and sensibly) represented as key/value pairs, localStorage. If not, IndexDB.
  448. # [15:08] <Pomax> and to give you an indication of how it works, http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/indexeddb/todo/
  449. # [15:08] <aitiba> this is the example that I'm using and I'm reading a lot
  450. # [15:08] <Pomax> it's a bit of a misnomer - it's a database in the sense that it's actually stores your data as JavaScript objects.
  451. # [15:09] <aitiba> but how can I upload data when I detect conection to internet?
  452. # [15:09] <Pomax> AJAX (another great misnomer)
  453. # [15:09] <Pomax> if there is a connect, you start ajax-posting the data to your backend.
  454. # [15:10] <Pomax> *connection
  455. # [15:10] <aitiba> do you know any example about that?
  456. # [15:11] <Pomax> not particulary. It really depends a lot on the user experience you want to offer
  457. # [15:12] <Pomax> especially for mobile devices that can connect using a dataplan rather than a wifi connection
  458. # [15:12] <Pomax> those users will not love you if you just start transmitting lots of data to the internet whenever there is a connection =)
  459. # [15:12] <Pomax> (the rich ones won't mind, the ones paying $20 per MB will)
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  461. # [15:14] <aitiba> and to have the data of interent on local I need to use manifest file right?
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  467. # [15:16] <Pomax> pardon?
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  471. # [15:17] <aitiba> If I would like to have on my local without internet the app I would like to use manifest file when I have internet?
  472. # [15:19] <onla> can you fetch database data with manifest file ?
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  478. # [15:21] <aitiba> no but I need to fetch the files.
  479. # [15:22] <onla> localStorage to collect the database data ?
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  481. # [15:23] <onla> yea I am newbie, but I thikn you use that for the files
  482. # [15:23] <aitiba> no use offline web aplications to record the files to local when im offline
  483. # [15:24] <onla> http://diveintohtml5.info/offline.html#manifest
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  485. # [15:25] <onla> make a simple page and test yourself :)
  486. # [15:25] <onla> hmm hmm
  487. # [15:26] <Pomax> seen http://www.thedotproduct.org/2010/03/html-5-offline-application-caching-javascript-localstorage-sessionstorage-manifest-example/ ?
  488. # [15:27] <aitiba> when I use indexeddb on the chrome developers tool I would see the database under local Storage right?
  489. # [15:27] <aitiba> I dont see todos database anywhere on http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/indexeddb/todo/
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  491. # [15:27] * onla bookmarks Pomax's link
  492. # [15:28] <Pomax> aitiba, http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/indexeddb/todo/#toc-step2 is the step where the object store is created.
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  494. # [15:30] <aitiba> I'm usign the example that the html5rocks has on the page. I add a todo but I dont see the database on the developers tools of chrome
  495. # [15:31] <onla> since html5 uses javascript all around etc, does the html5 web developers want to get rid of server-side as much as possible ?
  496. # [15:31] <onla> php is bad ?
  497. # [15:32] <Pomax> it's not bad, but you have to think about what to do at the server, and what to do at the client
  498. # [15:32] <Pomax> if you're using the server for all your application's logic, you're going to break it if your app becomes widely used. Can you move it to the client? most of the time, you can. So it is sensible to do so.
  499. # [15:33] <Pomax> and then use synchronising signals to make sure the server and client agree on the state of your application when it is important that they do
  500. # [15:33] <Pomax> (where signals can be any kind of data)
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  502. # [15:34] <onla> if multiple people accesses and edits a shared database, how much should or could you do client-side ?
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  504. # [15:34] <Pomax> exactly. that is the operative question. it greatly depends on how "live" you want live interaction to be.
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  507. # [15:37] <Pomax> a shared database for realtime information is usually best done using a thin client and remote procedure calls so that the client can never see any state other than the one. If it's a shared database for information that's more like, say, github, where users can work locally and then either discard or commit changes to the database, you can use a rich client that does "everything" and then only
  508. # [15:37] <Pomax> communicate change commands to the database whenever the user elects to commit their changes.
  509. # [15:37] <Pomax> and then there's the things in between where it really depends on your specific application how much you want the client to do, and how much you want the server to do.
  510. # [15:38] <Pomax> so the question "which one do I need" is usually met with "work out what your data model is, and how much of it must be synchronised, how often, how precisely, first"
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  512. # [15:39] <aitiba> I think that I cant see indexeddb with developer tools of chrome :(
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  521. # [15:46] <Pomax> http://caniuse.com/indexeddb
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  529. # [15:56] <onla> mkayz
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  531. # [15:57] <onla> a simple page that has a main page and some 4 additional pages. How would you make the navigation menu ?
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  533. # [15:58] <onla> i mean like I have used to making a php include for navigation menu.. of course other way around making the nav menu and other shit as the base, and then include the different contents on their own pages... but the point is that should I do it client-side and which way
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  536. # [16:02] <insin> template inheritance FTW
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  538. # [16:03] <onla> server-side ?
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  544. # [16:06] <insin> if you want it to be accessible/indexable etc., of course
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  547. # [16:08] <onla> http://api.jquery.com/template-tag-wrap/
  548. # [16:08] <insin> unless the goal is to learn how much dicking around is required to simulate basic navigation across browsers which have different levels of support for history/hash apis etc :)
  549. # [16:08] * NetRoY|away is now known as NetRoY
  550. # [16:08] <insin> or you could do it server side and use pjax
  551. # [16:08] <onla> how about that link, can that do what i want client-side
  552. # [16:09] <onla> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7014944/client-side-javascript-django-jinja-like-template-inheritance was here answered
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  556. # [16:10] <onla> i don't get what he is saying in the end with that remote being related to it :<
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  558. # [16:13] <insin> jade templates have inheritance and can be compiled to run client side
  559. # [16:15] <insin> I think dust.js templates can be similarly compiled
  560. # [16:16] <aitiba> Indexed db has 40% of support. Is ther any way to can use indexeddb on the other60%?
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  567. # [16:20] <onla> but basically most simple informational or so websites, that just have a navigation menu for simple pages with text, are using php or other server-side solutiosn for the navigation menu ? isn't client-side better choice, or is it going to be like that in the future too, that even those simple websites take on the php or so just for that they can use php's include ? how about using <iframe> or <object> is that wrong ?
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  569. # [16:20] <onla> if they are not using to hardcode the menu in all pages
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  571. # [16:23] <insin> use a static site generator
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  577. # [16:26] <onla> what method are they using
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  583. # [16:34] <onla> simple thing, but so complex to
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  586. # [16:42] <onla> I guess they are hardcoded into each .html file mkay. not satisfying though, eg if the managership of the site changes, the new owner would want to install the same static site generator i guess, if they wanted to edit some navigation item or so :<
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  654. # [18:29] <jarek__> how do I prevent the scrollbar from being reset when div is display is toggled?
  655. # [18:29] <jarek__> should I be caching the scrollbar position or is there something like element.lockScrollbar?
  656. # [18:30] <jarek__> s/div is display toggled/div display value is toggled
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  663. # [18:47] <Pomax> not sure I understand the question
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  672. # [19:00] <jarek> Pomax: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=36428
  673. # [19:00] <jarek> this is really annoying, the scrollbar is reset not only when I show/hide the dialog, but even when I resize it
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  676. # [19:07] <Pomax> what happens when you use visibility: hidden, rather tha display: none
  677. # [19:07] <Pomax> *than
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  679. # [19:10] <Pomax> visibility works, but of course then the area it takes up is still taken up
  680. # [19:10] <jarek> I can't use visibility: hidden, I have to remove the div from page flow
  681. # [19:12] <Pomax> hm, where's the link to the spec on this? O_o
  682. # [19:13] * mange_du_thon is now known as pinage404
  683. # [19:13] <Pomax> aha
  684. # [19:13] <Pomax> "Please note that a display of 'none' does not create an invisible box; it creates no box at all."
  685. # [19:13] <jarek> I can't think of any spec that would describe scrollbar behavior in detail
  686. # [19:13] <Pomax> so essentially forgetting the state is correct
  687. # [19:14] <jarek> DOM events just has onscroll event
  688. # [19:14] <Pomax> I'm just checking the CSS spec atm.
  689. # [19:14] <Pomax> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visuren.html#display-prop
  690. # [19:15] <Pomax> if "none" removes an element from the formatting structure, there is nothing that can do the "remembering" of the state until display is set to something that's not "none"
  691. # [19:15] <jarek> ok, this make some sense
  692. # [19:15] <jarek> but why scrollbar is reset when the div is a flexbox and window is resized?
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  696. # [19:21] <Pomax> I don't see that happening
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  698. # [19:22] <Pomax> http://jsfiddle.net/Pomax/n4mnf/
  699. # [19:23] <Pomax> if I resize the window, I see the flexbox content reflowing without the scrollbar resetting.
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  703. # [19:26] <jarek__> Pomax: this is the new flexbox, it's not supported yet
  704. # [19:26] <jarek__> give me a sec, I will create a test
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  711. # [19:38] <jarek__> damn, I'm unable to reproduce it on jsfiddle
  712. # [19:38] <jarek__> it looks like the issue is caused by something else
  713. # [19:40] <onla> i don't get what you r talking about, but in that code.google url, there is a jsfiddle illustration, not the same thing ?
  714. # [19:40] <onla> in the last comment
  715. # [19:40] <onla> not the same thing ? Here's another example/test-case that clearly illustrates this bug: http://jsfiddle.net/sammy/RubNy/
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  717. # [19:41] <onla> oh i get it
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  722. # [19:44] <jarek__> onla: yeah, I can reproduce the bug when the div is toggled, but I'm not sure what resets the scrollbar when it is resized
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  727. # [19:48] <aitiba1> I have an offline aplication cache example running but i getting error passing to offline
  728. # [19:48] <aitiba1> someone can help me please?
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  730. # [19:50] <aitiba1> I make modification on the code but it doesnt appear on the web
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  732. # [19:51] <deasy> hello, anyone know a good tutorial about menu in actual css? (with "animation" etc)
  733. # [19:51] <deasy> i need this for http://www.petitemasque.be/template.html
  734. # [19:51] <deasy> or a mentor :p who say to me what is bad in my "code"
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  736. # [19:53] <jarek__> aitiba1: you mean the browser is displaying the old content event though you have updated manifest file?
  737. # [19:53] <jarek__> s/event/even
  738. # [19:53] <jarek__> sorry for typos
  739. # [19:54] <aitiba1> jarek__yes
  740. # [19:54] <jarek__> aitiba1: I had exactly the same issue
  741. # [19:54] <jarek__> aitiba1: it looks like browsers are caching manifest file as well
  742. # [19:55] <jarek__> so once you page has been cached, it will not be updated again
  743. # [19:55] <jarek__> s/you/your
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  753. # [19:58] <joepie91> deasy: please, don't change the font size on mouse over
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  755. # [19:58] <joepie91> or at least make it so that it doesn't shift the other entries in the menu down
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  757. # [20:02] <jarek__> deasy: what kind of menu?
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  759. # [20:02] <jarek__> deasy: it should emulate the look of native OS menus?
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  761. # [20:03] <jarek__> deasy: this one is nice http://www.red-team-design.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/css3-animated-dropdown-menu-demo.html
  762. # [20:03] <jarek__> http://www.red-team-design.com/css3-animated-dropdown-menu
  763. # [20:04] <jarek__> there are tons of similar tutorials on the web
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  776. # [20:32] <aitiba1> someone can help me ith offline storage cache please?
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  781. # [20:50] <aitiba1> jarek__ have you any good example about offline storage cache?
  782. # [20:50] <deasy> joepie91, it's my sister who ask to me up size of font
  783. # [20:50] <deasy> what instead else?
  784. # [20:51] <joepie91> then tell your sister it's horrible practice to do things like that :P
  785. # [20:51] <joepie91> either do some magic with padding so that the other elements stay in place if one element grows
  786. # [20:51] <joepie91> or use other properties that do not modify the position or state of unrelated elements
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  788. # [20:52] <deasy> i'm noob in web dev ^^'
  789. # [20:53] <tw2113> we're all there at first
  790. # [20:54] <deasy> it's possible to have a menu like...(wait minute) this without javascript?
  791. # [20:54] <deasy> http://css.developpez.com/galerie/demo/menus/verticalderoulant2/#
  792. # [20:55] <tw2113> yes
  793. # [20:55] <deasy> cool!
  794. # [20:55] <tw2113> oops, forgot to click
  795. # [20:55] <deasy> it's exactly than i want
  796. # [20:55] <tw2113> hmm
  797. # [20:55] <deasy> ha okay hum
  798. # [20:56] <tw2113> for that stuff to show just when clicked, you'd probably need some amount of js
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  800. # [20:56] <deasy> okay!
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  802. # [20:57] <tw2113> just hit view source on that page and read a little ;)
  803. # [20:58] <deasy> yes i do, i have downloaded the js on my hdd
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  898. # Session Close: Mon Jan 02 00:00:00 2012

The end :)