/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-01-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jan 07 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  7. # [00:10] <zkirill> Am I still supposed to be using hyperlinks in a web app that uses pushState?
  8. # [00:10] <zkirill> If I use them I get taken to a 404 page while I thought that there would not be any server calls.
  9. # [00:11] <zkirill> Do I have to catch them with JS in order to navigate between states?
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  12. # [00:12] <jetienne> q. is there a setTimeout() which works even when the page isnt visible ?
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  34. # [00:58] <danbeam> anybody know authoritatively what the variants of implementation specific transitionend events are?
  35. # [00:58] <danbeam> i.e. MozTransitionEnd, webkitTransitionEnd, oTransitionEnd, msTransitionEnd, etc.?
  36. # [00:59] <danbeam> nvm, https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/CSS_transitions (oh MDC, how I <3 u)
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  51. # [01:21] <elena1986> hello
  52. # [01:22] <elena1986> could someone please recommend a framework for developing html5/jquery apps for mobile devices?
  53. # [01:24] <danbeam> elena1986: jQuery mobile?
  54. # [01:25] <elena1986> yeah, I've been thinking along the same lines danbeam
  55. # [01:26] <elena1986> what's the best IDE to develop apps in jquery for mobile?
  56. # [01:26] <elena1986> is eclipse alright?
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  64. # [01:44] <elena1986> should I install ADT Plugin for Eclipse to develop web apps for andriod? or is it only for java development?
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  73. # [02:07] <danbeam> tw2113: yo
  74. # [02:07] <danbeam> elena1986: dunno, I just use vim
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  127. # [04:42] <niftylettuce> what do you guys use for add to homescreen? https://github.com/cubiq/add-to-homescreen or the jqm version -- or other?
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  130. # [04:48] <leofseige> the "CTO" of homescreen's name is Preshit...
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  157. # [05:53] <Dr4g> what useful toolkits are out there apart from the boilerplate and bootstrap ?
  158. # [05:53] <Dr4g> for frontend stuff
  159. # [05:54] <divya> to sass
  160. # [05:54] <divya> err sass
  161. # [05:54] <divya> jekyll
  162. # [05:54] <Dr4g> divya: was that to me
  163. # [05:54] <divya> yes
  164. # [05:54] <Dr4g> linkage ?
  165. # [05:54] <Dr4g> :)
  166. # [05:54] <divya> sass-lang.com
  167. # [05:55] <divya> http://jekyllrb.com/
  168. # [05:55] <Dr4g> sass isn't supported by the official CSS spec, is it ?
  169. # [05:55] <Dr4g> it's just re-structuring things.. am i correct ?
  170. # [05:55] <divya> its a preprocessor
  171. # [05:55] <divya> it compiles into css
  172. # [05:56] <Dr4g> yep
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  174. # [05:56] <Dr4g> thanks about jekyll, i'm using PHP primarily so ruby is out of the window.
  175. # [05:56] <Dr4g> jquery mobile looks decent..
  176. # [05:57] <niftylettuce> Dr4g: Stylus :D
  177. # [05:58] * Dr4g looks
  178. # [05:59] * Dr4g niftylettuce: this? https://github.com/LearnBoost/stylus
  179. # [06:00] <niftylettuce> Dr4g: yeah
  180. # [06:00] <niftylettuce> Dr4g: no need to run a CLI `compass watch` or anything like SASS
  181. # [06:00] <niftylettuce> Dr4g: example implementation in Expressling https://github.com/niftylettuce/expressling
  182. # [06:01] <niftylettuce> ^ that is getting major overhaul, but I am eventually going to go full time on CoreJS probably
  183. # [06:01] <niftylettuce> e.g. CoreJS H5BP + mobile with dev/production environments
  184. # [06:01] <Dr4g> niftylettuce: although it's for node.js, it can be used in the general web still, right ?
  185. # [06:01] <niftylettuce> Dr4g: yeah you can do `stylus watch` and stuff
  186. # [06:01] <Dr4g> i'm using PHP primarily.. so looking for server-side agnostic tools
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  188. # [06:02] <niftylettuce> watch recursively watches files for changes and updates CSS version
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  190. # [06:02] <niftylettuce> same thing as compass/sass
  191. # [06:02] <niftylettuce> i started with sass but moved to stylus, really depends on what you're doing and what you need
  192. # [06:02] <niftylettuce> sass mixins are gr8
  193. # [06:04] <Dr4g> thanks for the suggestion on that lib
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  206. # [06:44] <alex____> does html5 provide geoIP location ?
  207. # [06:45] <dandu> i don' think it does, you need api's but maybe someone can contradict me
  208. # [06:46] <georgeps> the geolocation api is supported by most browsers now.
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  214. # [06:55] <leofseige> I need to map 5000 IPs/day to lat/long coords. What geolocation api do you guys suggest?
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  517. # [19:06] <devnaz> bonjour
  518. # [19:06] <devnaz> vous parlez francais ?
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  521. # [19:13] <divya> non :)
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  524. # [19:16] <eighty4> isn't it bit mean to only have an english html5 channel?
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  526. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> #htmlCinq?
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  528. # [19:21] <josefrichter> Guys, imagine an e-shop. It makes sense to add micro data to a product detail page. But would you add micro data also to a products listing page (or homepage)? Does it make sense?
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  534. # [19:38] <moo-_-> josefrichter: only listing microdata :)
  535. # [19:39] <moo-_-> though no if such thing exist
  536. # [19:39] <moo-_-> it's probably RSS feed
  537. # [19:39] <josefrichter> moo-_- ?? not sure I understand what you mean
  538. # [19:40] <moo-_-> josefrichter: I'd say you add microdata to actual pages only
  539. # [19:40] <moo-_-> josefrichter: and for listing pages add reference style microdata
  540. # [19:40] <moo-_-> like RSS
  541. # [19:40] <moo-_-> which points to the actual product pages
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  545. # [19:43] <techrush> hi
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  547. # [19:44] <josefrichter> moo-_- OK. my thinking was as follows: microdata helps google to understand what's on a page. it can use it to get more precise search results or even display it in search results. if someone looks for specific product, don't you want to have in search results both the product page as well as the homepage? Moreover, your homepage is likely to have much higher page rank than the product page, so it's more likely to appear higher. so I guess
  548. # [19:44] <josefrichter> makes sense to give google as much info on what's on the homepage as possible, therefore stuff it with micro data. What do you think?
  549. # [19:45] <moo-_-> you *don't* want to end up to the home page when doing a search
  550. # [19:45] <moo-_-> you are confusing search engines if you have the same content on several pages
  551. # [19:46] <moo-_-> google webmaster tools even have some tools to analyze this and get rid of it
  552. # [19:49] <Pomax> I don't want a homepage for "bestbuy.com" in the search results when I search for a "nikon d5100". I don't care about the base domain - if the product is offered, I'll get to the homepage from there, by virtue of adding things to my basket.
  553. # [19:49] <Pomax> also forcing the homepage in the results via microdata/SEO is just forcing yourself into a space that could be used by a REAL result instead
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  567. # [20:01] <josefrichter> moo-_- Pomax well I agree that the end user want to land on product page rather than homepage. But as a seller, you want first of all your page to be displayed in results as high as possible. And your homepage has much higher chance to get there than a product page. So better have homepage (or catalogue page) on page 1 then product page on page 2 of results, right? :-)
  568. # [20:02] <moo-_-> no
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  571. # [20:02] <moo-_-> you want to consumers find the product they want to buy
  572. # [20:03] <moo-_-> if the page I arrive does not contain the item I am searching I will leave the site immediately and consider it as a scam site
  573. # [20:03] <moo-_-> you need to optimize your homepage visibility through other means
  574. # [20:03] <moo-_-> read some google guidelines regarding the matter
  575. # [20:04] <josefrichter> moo-_- of course it WILL contain the item you are looking for. But possibly with a few more items (that might be of interest for you as well actually)
  576. # [20:04] <moo-_-> it does not contain it necessarily
  577. # [20:04] <moo-_-> because your homepage is unstable
  578. # [20:04] <moo-_-> items come and go
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  580. # [20:04] <moo-_-> that's the problem
  581. # [20:05] <moo-_-> josefrichter: no be a good webmaster and read this ihttp://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=35769 :)
  582. # [20:05] <moo-_-> no/now
  583. # [20:05] <Pomax> josefrichter, your google listing is not going to update as fast as your product updates. don't abuse your homepage for products.
  584. # [20:05] <Pomax> I want to find your homepage, but not when I'm looking for a product you sell.
  585. # [20:05] <josefrichter> moo-_- that's right. so you better check how often google reindexes your homepage, so that you don't annoy your customers.
  586. # [20:05] <Pomax> then I want the product page, and not some page that has a link to that product page.
  587. # [20:05] <moo-_-> Don't create multiple pages, subdomains, or domains with substantially duplicate content.
  588. # [20:05] <Pomax> that's a store I will avoid
  589. # [20:05] <moo-_-> that's pretty clearly said
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  591. # [20:06] <josefrichter> moo-_- Pomax: yes, you're right guys. Obviously you MUST avoid situation where user lands on page not containing what he was looking for.
  592. # [20:06] <Pomax> remember that you're not just selling a product. If I search for "FlabMeister 3000" then I am implicitly also searching for its information sheet.
  593. # [20:07] <Pomax> your product page will have it. your homepage, o the other hand, will piss me off because your search result lied. The additional information that I want isn't there, it's on some other page.
  594. # [20:07] <Pomax> which will make me go "ffs, learn some SEO" and go to the next google hit
  595. # [20:08] <Pomax> as a webdev, I can see where you're coming from. as a consumer, I really hope you don't do that.
  596. # [20:08] <josefrichter> Pomax: right. I understand your view and would react the same way actually.
  597. # [20:09] <josefrichter> Pomax: what about some major product that you know you will promote on your homepage for quite a long time? Like Kindle Fire on Amazon's homepage for example.
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  599. # [20:09] <Pomax> that's different. you have now turned your homepage into a product landing page.
  600. # [20:09] <Pomax> for a webstore that isn't already making millions while the admins are sleeping it's a really bad idea
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  602. # [20:11] <Pomax> that said, if I google for the kindle product and get amazon.com, that makes me go "ffs amazon, learn some SEO" too
  603. # [20:11] <Pomax> I don't want the homepage when I want product information
  604. # [20:11] <Pomax> (then again amazon bought their sponsor links for a LOT of money, so they have an excuse)
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  607. # [20:14] <josefrichter> Pomax: Right. Another view at the thing: It's Google's task to direct you to a product page rather than some aggregating page. Your job is to give google as much information about particular page (including homepage) as possible, so that Google can take qualified decision. I guess google does take into account how many products are there on a page and prefers single product page ahead of aggregate pages on very specific search phrases, whi
  608. # [20:14] <josefrichter> it may prefer the aggregate page on other, more generic, search phrases like "digital cameras". what do you think?
  609. # [20:15] <josefrichter> moo-_- ^
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  612. # [20:18] <josefrichter> I mean you do create a kind of "duplicate" content just by listing the name of the product on homepage, catalog page and detail page. Adding as much additional metadata as possible actually doesn't change things much, does it?
  613. # [20:20] <Pomax> my job is nothing. I'm an internet user, not a google engineer.
  614. # [20:20] <Pomax> if I search for a product name, the magical interwebs are supposed to already know what I mean.
  615. # [20:20] <moo-_-> josefrichter: you are asking our advice and if you are not willing to listen I suggest you try it by trial-and-error :)
  616. # [20:20] <Pomax> which is why google works so well. quite often, it already does
  617. # [20:21] <josefrichter> Pomax: if you look for "digital cameras" or for "movie reviews" don't you wanna land on page with as many of them as possible?
  618. # [20:21] <Pomax> as a programmer I'd love nothing more than to make people be more precise when they do things. They won't, because it's my hubris to demand they do. Instead it's my job to make sure I understand how *they* work, and work with that
  619. # [20:21] <Pomax> if I look for "digital camera" I am not looking for your page
  620. # [20:21] <josefrichter> moo-_- I am just discussing. I don't know the correct answer and try to look at things from different perspectives.
  621. # [20:21] <Pomax> if I'm looking for "canon powershot IS220", I am looking for your product page.
  622. # [20:22] <Pomax> I will not care for your site if it shows up for category terms, rather than products.
  623. # [20:23] <josefrichter> Pomax if you look for "digital cameras" (plural) why you wouldn't want to land on a page listing more of them?
  624. # [20:23] <Pomax> because on the internet, shops don't sell me "a camera". I already found the camera I probably want, and am now looking for shops that give me enough information to make me decide whether or not to splurge on it. that means details, details, details, and as little in the way of links that aren't going to be what I want because your competitor's going to give me only one page instead of two
  625. # [20:24] <Pomax> I will never search for "digital cameras", because as a consumer, I cannot buy "digital cameras"
  626. # [20:24] <Pomax> I can buy a nikon d700, or an olympus pen, etc. I already heard about which brands are cool from my friends.
  627. # [20:25] <Pomax> if I need the internet to find out that "digital cameras" are sold at your shop, I'm a fucking retard.
  628. # [20:25] <leogseige> Pomax: most people are
  629. # [20:25] <Pomax> there's a billion shops that sell <category here>.
  630. # [20:25] <Pomax> no, most people are actually perfectly normal consumers
  631. # [20:25] <Pomax> they have a vague idea of what they want, and will search relatively specifically.
  632. # [20:26] <josefrichter> Pomax: well, I don't think so. It's perfectly valid to search for "digital cameras" to find out what's on the market, if you don't know.
  633. # [20:26] <leogseige> josefrichter: agreed
  634. # [20:26] <Pomax> it's valid to search for it, but get real. your shop's not going to end up anywhere near the top 100
  635. # [20:26] <Pomax> I will find things like digital preview, etc.
  636. # [20:27] <Pomax> because those types of sites are far more relevant to that query
  637. # [20:27] <Pomax> if i search for "buy digital camera", then perhaps I would find you, but then I indeed want your homepage. Without a corresponding product page, so it's not part of the use case sketched earlier
  638. # [20:28] <josefrichter> Pomax: well, also not entirely true. what about "digital cameras liverpool" ? much higher chance to get to first page...
  639. # [20:28] <Pomax> certainly, but note that important point: this is no longer about a product page + less specific product page
  640. # [20:29] <Pomax> *less specific home page
  641. # [20:29] <josefrichter> Pomax: the question in place still is "does it make sense to add microdata to homepage?"
  642. # [20:30] <Pomax> I'd say only for persistent or quasi-persistent data. For week-to-week product updates, no.
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  647. # [20:30] <Pomax> (updated flyers, etc, is all prime RSS material with some google reader and feedburner links to make it immediately usable by your potential customers)
  648. # [20:31] <josefrichter> Pomax: after the discussion I tend to think yes. Just give google as much info as possible. If you tell google that your homepage has 10 digital cameras listed (no matter they change even day), then it might be perfectly relevant landing page for some consumers (looking for "digital cameras").
  649. # [20:32] <josefrichter> *every day (not even day)
  650. # [20:32] <Pomax> it might also land you in "goddamn spam site" trouble with the consumer, though
  651. # [20:33] <Pomax> if you consistent rank high even though your homepage only has microdata, rather than listing the product, it's easy to become fairly impopular fairly quickly
  652. # [20:33] <josefrichter> Pomax: Consumer looking for "digital cameras" lands on website listing 10 digital cameras. What's spammy about that?
  653. # [20:33] <Pomax> that's not what will happen in the real world.
  654. # [20:33] <Pomax> that's an artificial example we just invented.
  655. # [20:33] <Pomax> if a consumer looks for "digital cameras liverpool", the next year you won't be on the first page.
  656. # [20:34] <josefrichter> Pomax: what's artificial? the search phrase "digital cameras" ?
  657. # [20:34] <Pomax> unless this is a major retailer site.
  658. # [20:34] <robin_sz> so, would it (theoretically) be possible to open websocket connection to a an rtmp stream, decode the audio stream in javascript and somehow get it out to speaker land?
  659. # [20:34] <Pomax> so you're tradeoff is SEO that pays off in the long run vs. initial consumer uptake.
  660. # [20:35] <josefrichter> Pomax: why you wouldn't be there next year? don't understand your point
  661. # [20:35] <Pomax> but here I am making the presumption it's a new company, which might be very wrong of course
  662. # [20:36] <Pomax> there is a next year, but for an entire year your site would be lying about what I can find on the page, just to get higher in the rankings.
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  664. # [20:36] <Pomax> of course, there will be a part of your consumer base that doesn't care.
  665. # [20:37] <josefrichter> Pomax: no, it's not lying. It's saying that the items listed on your homepage are digital cameras. Which is important for someone looking for digital cameras.
  666. # [20:37] <Pomax> but if you're an eshop, a large part of your consumer base can be expected to appreciate search engine links to get them to the page they want, not the page the store owner wants.
  667. # [20:37] <Pomax> it's why we use google despite webstores having a "search for ..." box =)
  668. # [20:37] <josefrichter> Pomax: so what is the search phrase where you actually WANT consumers to land on your homepage?
  669. # [20:38] <Pomax> for JUST the homepage, broad categories are fine, but don't microdata specific models, then.
  670. # [20:39] <Pomax> don't stick in "nikon d7" and "canon 6D" for instance.
  671. # [20:39] <Pomax> or "kenwood microwaves" when it's just one of the twenty brands you sell
  672. # [20:39] <josefrichter> Pomax: so you would add micro data saying that the item type is "digital camera" but not micro data stating it's "nikon d7" ?
  673. # [20:40] <Pomax> yeah, because I already have a much more specific page for that nikon d7 that I want people to land on, with the information they need to say "shit yes, I want this camera O_O" and pay me $2200 =)
  674. # [20:40] <josefrichter> Pomax: what about the search phrase "Nikon cameras"? :D
  675. # [20:40] <Pomax> rather than landing on my homepage to see all the other things I also sell. If someone comes into my store looking for a nikon d7, I'm not going to ask them to look at my fine line of home computers, for instance.
  676. # [20:40] <Pomax> are you a Nikon only dealer? if not, I'd say no.
  677. # [20:41] <Pomax> google will already pick up the brands you sell if you designed your category pages well.
  678. # [20:42] <josefrichter> Pomax: so only using the generic term that describes what can ALWAYS be found on the homepage, right? For Nikon dealer it can be "nikon cameras", for someone like Amazon it's just generic "consumer products" ?
  679. # [20:43] <Pomax> yeah. don't make your homepage a catch-all. Amazon's DVD section, for instance, will have high SEO for "DVD", "Bluray" etc, but their much less so on their home page.
  680. # [20:44] <Pomax> if you have category specific pages, (which will look like your homepage for the most part), SEO the hell out of them with applicable terms. So enrich your digital camera page with lots of microdata for terms relating to that = win.
  681. # [20:45] <josefrichter> Pomax: My intention actually isn't SEO or trying to climb up the search results, but to provide as relevant info as possible.
  682. # [20:45] <Pomax> now people will land in your shop's camera section, which is exactly where you can start recommending them immediately related products and potential future sales.
  683. # [20:45] <Pomax> in that case, you definitely don't want to overload your homepage.
  684. # [20:45] <Pomax> it's just a homepage, there are better pages to act as honeypot.
  685. # [20:47] <josefrichter> Pomax: actually the website Im working on is not e-shop at all - I know my question is stinking like profiteering because of that. The site Im working on contains movie reviews. Does it change your view somehow?
  686. # [20:47] <Pomax> take something like http://ncix.com for instance. Lots of semi-permanent deals (they usually stay up a week), but if you're looking for digital cameras, you want them to land on http://ncix.com/products/index.php?minorcatid=1020
  687. # [20:48] <Pomax> it does, because movie reviews don't require you to structure your landing spots based on making a sale
  688. # [20:49] <josefrichter> Pomax: can you explain?
  689. # [20:49] <Pomax> movie reviews don't have to focus on making sure someone's going to pay you money, and not your competition
  690. # [20:50] <Pomax> different rules. For movie reviews, getting the base site as well as the specific link for a review might actually be good, because if I'm looking for a movie review, good change I'll want to check other movie reviews too
  691. # [20:50] <Pomax> and what better place than your homepage, or imdb.com for that matter.
  692. # [20:51] <josefrichter> Pomax: sure. so does it change the answer to the question "should homepage contain microdata?"
  693. # [20:51] <Pomax> so in that vein, getting your homepage, as well as the review link, might be a bonus
  694. # [20:51] <Pomax> yes of course it does.
  695. # [20:51] <Pomax> they're completely different models
  696. # [20:51] <Pomax> for reviews, microdata is probably a good idea.
  697. # [20:52] <josefrichter> Pomax: hehe, I think it's completely the same. It's about landing on specific page vs. landing on aggregate page :-)
  698. # [20:52] <Pomax> then you're ignoring the most important part: what people want.
  699. # [20:52] <Pomax> if I search for a product I want to buy, I will search for that product until I find the shop that will tell me the most about it, and sell it to me cheapest.
  700. # [20:53] <josefrichter> someone looking for "Titanic review" wants to land on specific page, while someone looking for "movie reviews" wants to land on homepage, right?
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  702. # [20:53] <Pomax> if I want a movie review, I don't want "the best review" so much as "a useful review" and then maybe a few more reviews on other films that are related.
  703. # [20:53] <Pomax> I am searching for a term, but the expectencies I have, and the peripheral information pertaining to the result, are worlds apart.
  704. # [20:54] <Pomax> yes, but someone looking for "Titanic review" will not mind seeing a SuperCoolMovieReviews.com searchbox option in google for "search this site", because they're in figuring-out-which-movie-is-worth-watching mode
  705. # [20:54] <Pomax> not in the "I have $2000 and only want to spend $1000" mode.
  706. # [20:55] <josefrichter> Pomax: don't you alway look for "best" result, it's just different parameters that define what's "best" ?
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  708. # [20:56] <josefrichter> Pomax: if I look for "Titanic review" I don't want to see any other fucking movies. I want to read Titanic review. I don't think I am in "don't mind seeing other stuff" mode, just because it's movies, not products...
  709. # [20:57] <josefrichter> Pomax: anyway, movies are also just "products" and you are picking which one you will "buy", right?
  710. # [20:57] <Pomax> wrong.
  711. # [20:58] <Pomax> don't generalise your content. find out how users behave when they want the data you offer, and what they do AFTER they find it.
  712. # [20:58] <Pomax> then cater to that for great justice (also, success on the web)
  713. # [20:59] <Pomax> if you search for titanic reviews, of course you want the titanic review. it HAS to be there.
  714. # [20:59] <Pomax> but if google also shows that the master site can be searched for arbitrary reviews, now you're a data store. not just a website. you're now on par with wikipedia or imdb in terms of functionality
  715. # [21:00] <Pomax> "if I need it, I know I will be able to find it here"
  716. # [21:01] <Pomax> this is anything but true for consumer products like electronics, where any 100 webstores may sell 1000 items, 900 of them sold by any 10 out of those 100
  717. # [21:02] <josefrichter> Pomax: what if I am website oriented only on "american romantic movies" ? someone looking for Titanic will land there, but obviously will get no result for "Texas chainsaw massacre"...
  718. # [21:04] <Pomax> then you have set yourself up for being a fantastic niche website, and have no reason whatsoever to even worry about microdata.
  719. # [21:05] <josefrichter> Pomax: :-)
  720. # [21:05] <josefrichter> I am gonna plant this question on Quora. It generates pretty interesting discussion I think, with no clear answers :-)
  721. # [21:06] <Pomax> excellent idea. The more input, the better an opinion can be formed.
  722. # [21:08] <josefrichter> Pomax: throw in your 2 cents :-) http://www.quora.com/Should-homepage-contain-microdata
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  726. # [21:11] <josefrichter> Pomax: anyway, thanks very much for your insights. made me realize many things.
  727. # [21:11] <josefrichter> Pomax just still don't have clear stance on this :D
  728. # [21:11] <Pomax> mine shall have to stay here, but http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html5/20120107 has all the info =)
  729. # [21:13] <josefrichter> cool, thanks
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  791. # [23:41] * Joins: avandenhoven (~avandenho@S0106002401f55497.vs.shawcable.net)
  792. # [23:43] * Quits: avandenhoven (~avandenho@S0106002401f55497.vs.shawcable.net) (Client Quit)
  793. # [23:44] * Quits: Jackneill (~Jackneill@unaffiliated/jackneill) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  794. # [23:47] * Quits: sasori (~sasori@acl1-719bts.gw.smartbro.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  795. # [23:54] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  796. # [23:55] * Joins: grantg (~chatzilla@69.88.160.3)
  797. # Session Close: Sun Jan 08 00:00:01 2012

The end :)