/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-01-30 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Jan 30 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [01:40] <Behi> I have a multiple file input on my page and document.getElementById("file_input").files returns the files selected for the input, but $("#file_input").files or $("#file_input").get("files") is not returning anything with jQuery. Any ideas why is this so?
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# [02:02] <paul_irish> hi alex___ :)
# [02:02] <paul_irish> cool
# [02:02] <alex___> hi
# [02:03] <alex___> oh wow i see you twice now
# [02:03] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: i'm looking at https://github.com/aFarkas/html5shiv/commit/dfa3d1e31 and curious
# [02:03] <socialhapy> ★ Commit on html5shiv by jonathantneal (1m, 2w ago): Simplified <style> insertion, added styles
# [02:04] <paul_irish> i think the x on L61 will trigger a text node which will cause creation of document.body if its not made already
# [02:04] <paul_irish> oh but its only insertBeforing lastChild
# [02:04] <paul_irish> welllll in that case
# [02:04] <alex___> yeah about this one
# [02:04] <alex___> i think shy would be nicer there too
# [02:05] <alex___> i write a short test for this now
# [02:05] <paul_irish> or the term noScope
# [02:05] <paul_irish> http://www.thecssninja.com/javascript/noscope
# [02:05] <paul_irish> alex___: do you have a test that has a comment as the firstchild of document.head ?
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# [02:06] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: checking
# [02:06] <paul_irish> i'm not too worried now :)
# [02:07] <JonathanNeal> we could also do the getElementsByTagName('script')[0] dealio to jack it in.
# [02:07] <JonathanNeal> nevermind, yea i'm sure it's fine.
# [02:08] <JonathanNeal> so normalize and twitter bp have done something different with audio
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# [02:08] <JonathanNeal> they do audio:not([controls]) or something, you guys know what I'm talking about?
# [02:09] <JonathanNeal> I don't understand why it's not just written ie7 friendly with audio{display:none} audio[controls]{/*inline block with hack*/}
# [02:09] <paul_irish> hey jdalton.. psst alex___ <=
# [02:09] <jdalton> afarkas?
# [02:09] <JonathanNeal> html5shiv does it the way i just mentioned, but is there a reason you guys did it the other way in the bp and normalize?
# [02:09] <alex___> yeah was in my ide
# [02:09] <jdalton> cool
# [02:10] <alex___> no, we don't have a test like that
# [02:10] <JonathanNeal> alex___: we could write it differently
# [02:10] <jdalton> nice detective work on that vml thing
# [02:10] <JonathanNeal> instead of evaluating documentHead
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# [02:10] <JonathanNeal> we could write documentHead.firstChild.canHaveChildren or something
# [02:10] <jdalton> i just added one comment to it -> https://github.com/aFarkas/html5shiv/commit/aaeb7da4de048e7d963a1eabb94d533b88adb683#comments
# [02:10] <socialhapy> ★ Commit on html5shiv by aFarkas (59m, 56s ago): shorter vml test (thx to @jdalton)
# [02:10] <paul_irish> pretty sure IE is fine with comment node as firstChild and insertBefore'ing away
# [02:10] <paul_irish> IE has firstElementChild... oh but this insertion isnt just IE
# [02:11] <JonathanNeal> i think it should be fine, we're just using it to insert before
# [02:11] <alex___> no it's mostly all old engines
# [02:11] <JonathanNeal> we shouldn't need to worry about whether or not it has children.
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# [02:11] <jdalton> there was a bug in a beta firefox
# [02:11] <JonathanNeal> plus we only do this so that the css will be absolutely first and any other css will beat it.
# [02:11] <jdalton> with comment nodes and inserting
# [02:11] <jdalton> but thats the only one i can think of
# [02:11] <paul_irish> FF4 betas had a bug where <head>  would blow up insertBefore with a comment node firstChild
# [02:11] <paul_irish> but it was betas only
# [02:11] <jdalton> bingo
# [02:11] <paul_irish> so fuck it
# [02:11] <paul_irish> okay great. i'm satisfied.
# [02:11] <jdalton> yap
# [02:11] <jdalton> we'll do it live
# [02:11] <paul_irish> :D
# [02:12] <JonathanNeal> yea, who cares, a firefox beta
# [02:12] <JonathanNeal> jdalton: we'll do it live?!
# [02:12] <jdalton> i dont count bugs in betas/alphas
# [02:12] <JonathanNeal> play us out.
# [02:12] <jdalton> bugs are expected
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# [02:12] <alex___> so, no code change for html5shiv3.1?
# [02:13] <JonathanNeal> i may commit a code cleanup, but i'm not changing anything, it's just whitespaces. Otherwise it looks good from here too.
# [02:13] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tJjNVVwRCY :)
# [02:13] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: yea that's why i said "play us out"
# [02:13] <jdalton> imma kinda surprised
# [02:13] <paul_irish> oh oh okay!
# [02:13] <paul_irish> that the duckpunch didnt wreak havoc?
# [02:13] <JonathanNeal> jdalton: surprised by?
# [02:13] <jdalton> the str.replace(…, function() { }); works for IE with a detached createElement method
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# [02:14] <jdalton> I thought this…. str.replace(…, document.createElement); has probs
# [02:14] <jdalton> if it doesn't
# [02:14] <jdalton> we should shorten it to that
# [02:14] <jdalton> *has/had
# [02:15] <jdalton> also this is odd
# [02:15] <JonathanNeal> the test for documentShived is confusing me
# [02:15] <jdalton> https://github.com/aFarkas/html5shiv/blob/master/src/html5shiv.js#L65
# [02:15] <JonathanNeal> is it being done more often than it needs to be?
# [02:16] <JonathanNeal> jdalton: i am fixing that in a whitespace review.
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# [02:16] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: the test for shived? no its checked twice and set once
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# [02:17] <paul_irish> and set to true after the first two checks went past
# [02:17] <paul_irish> i like not adding styles if no head exists. that's pleasant
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# [02:18] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: https://github.com/necolas/normalize.css/commit/8ae3231cdbc86476b36050547a341ebcbc3cce4b
# [02:18] <socialhapy> ★ Commit on normalize.css by necolas (6m, 1w ago): Prevent IE6 from ignoring the embedded media ruleset. Fix #10
# [02:18] <JonathanNeal> the test on line 67 through 69 avoids it running the test again on line 24 through 26.
# [02:18] <alex___> the html5 shiv let's you shiv other document like iframes
# [02:18] <paul_irish> " i dont think there is much point doing it any other way, because ie6-8 don't even have native support for <audio> or its controls.' ~necolas
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# [02:18] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: good pull, thanks, but we avoid that by separating the rules in html5shiv.
# [02:18] <JonathanNeal> that's good to know though.
# [02:19] <jdalton> actually JohnathanNeal
# [02:19] <jdalton> documentCreateElementReplaceFunction can be removed
# [02:19] <jdalton> it's not used in the code
# [02:19] <jdalton> also jesus long names
# [02:19] <JonathanNeal> jdalton: thorough verbose names :)
# [02:19] <paul_irish> lol
# [02:19] <JonathanNeal> jdalton: imma pull that out.
# [02:19] <paul_irish> jesus long
# [02:19] <JonathanNeal> just don't tell anyone i said imma.
# [02:20] <alex___> yeah, this was my fault
# [02:20] <alex___> have changed the replace function through loop and forgot to remove the replacefunction
# [02:20] <JonathanNeal> we're good.
# [02:20] <JonathanNeal> committed.
# [02:21] <jdalton> anyone found documentation on element.document ?
# [02:21] <JonathanNeal> There's still something bothering me about the documentShived within shivDocument versus shivDom
# [02:21] <jdalton> my msdn attempts have pulled up 0
# [02:21] <JonathanNeal> i don't understand those names either, those sound the same to me.
# [02:22] <JonathanNeal> jdalton: it was just something magical i found during my explorations within explorer.
# [02:22] <JonathanNeal> it was next to the frog dna we used to remake the dinosaurs.
# [02:22] <jdalton> ya its an awesome find
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# [02:22] <jdalton> i have iterated for (var i in element) alert(i); tons of times
# [02:22] <jdalton> and never thought to look at that
# [02:22] <JonathanNeal> jdalton: was it you who pointed out the x<style> trick? I think that is brilliant.
# [02:23] <jdalton> ya but I stole it from jquery
# [02:23] <JonathanNeal> well, together we are stronger than apart.
# [02:23] <jdalton> I think resig found it originally for script injection
# [02:23] <JonathanNeal> I suggest we rename the methods before launch.
# [02:23] <jdalton> which was awesome and I was like WHY ISNT PROTOTYPE AND MOOTOOLS doing this
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# [02:23] <JonathanNeal> shivDom and shivDocument
# [02:24] <JonathanNeal> right now shivDom shivs the document and duckpunches createElement
# [02:24] <JonathanNeal> shivDocument does what shivDom does and then also adds the CSS.
# [02:25] <jdalton> consolidate
# [02:25] <JonathanNeal> html5.shivDocment html5.shivCSS ?
# [02:25] <JonathanNeal> ideas?
# [02:25] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: audio element is hidden in ie6.
# [02:26] <jdalton> oh -> https://github.com/aFarkas/html5shiv/blob/master/src/html5shiv.js#L11
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# [02:26] <jdalton> thats an appendChild -> insertBefore
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# [02:27] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: jdalton: here's the post on x<style> http://www.thecssninja.com/javascript/noscope
# [02:27] <paul_irish> i know i told ryanseddon about it. forget where i picked it up from
# [02:27] <jdalton> ya but jq had this since like 2007 or smth
# [02:28] <jdalton> 4 yrs before this post
# [02:28] <paul_irish> nice
# [02:28] <alex___> what about shivDocument and proxyCreate
# [02:28] <paul_irish> ++
# [02:29] <paul_irish> or
# [02:29] <jdalton> here is the msdn note
# [02:29] <jdalton> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/ms533897(v=vs.85).aspx (in the comments)
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# [02:29] <paul_irish> ya
# [02:30] <paul_irish> shivDocument,shivCreateMethods, shivCSS ?
# [02:30] <alex___> so we stick to the long names :-9
# [02:31] <alex___> shivCSS is part of shivDocument currently, so no extra
# [02:31] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: right now people can't opt out of shivCreateMethods
# [02:31] <JonathanNeal> but we could change it.
# [02:31] <alex___> shivthey can opt out
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# [02:31] <JonathanNeal> alex___: yea but they ought to be options like you've made fixDomMethods
# [02:32] <alex___> my english :-) , can you explain
# [02:33] <alex___> html5.fixDomMethods = false; // does the trick for me
# [02:33] <JonathanNeal> just a moment, multi-tasking, wife needs a lightbulb changed and says it's important, two minutes.
# [02:33] <JonathanNeal> alex___: it still duckpunches the document.createElement function and anything you run shivDom on.
# [02:33] <JonathanNeal> or shivDocument
# [02:34] <justicefries> is there a dedicated channel for canvas stuff?
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# [02:35] <paul_irish> justicefries: #bbg would be some good people
# [02:36] <paul_irish> i'd say here but we're in the middle of a chat if it can wait :)
# [02:36] <JonathanNeal> okay back
# [02:36] <justicefries> nah, it's not a particular question, just pushing my stuff to the right places. ;)
# [02:37] <JonathanNeal> scopeDocument.createElement runs either way, alex___
# [02:37] <JonathanNeal> there are three options, should we put them in an options object?
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# [02:38] <JonathanNeal> options = { shivDocument: true, shivCreateElement: true, shivCSS: true } ???
# [02:39] <alex___> actually i don't see a reason why someone would set shivDocument to false, it's 100% bulletproof, and if someone don't want this, he should remove html5shiv
# [02:39] <JonathanNeal> jdalton: would you clarify how i might resolve your issue? document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].firstChild ?
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# [02:40] <JonathanNeal> debuging?
# [02:40] <jdalton> can u point to the line number
# [02:40] <paul_irish> yeah shivDoc is the whoel point of the script. shouldnt be optional
# [02:40] <JonathanNeal> https://github.com/aFarkas/html5shiv/blob/master/src/html5shiv.js#L11
# [02:40] <paul_irish> but shivMethods and shivCSS could be optional
# [02:40] <JonathanNeal> okay sure.
# [02:40] <JonathanNeal> just a second.
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# [02:43] <paul_irish> +1 on jdalton's issues
# [02:44] <JonathanNeal> we're talking about it
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# [02:44] <JonathanNeal> https://github.com/aFarkas/html5shiv/issues
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# [02:46] <Armen> greetings
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# [02:49] <JonathanNeal> Consolidation commited.
# [02:49] <JonathanNeal> working on jdalton's remaining issues now.
# [02:49] <Armen> oh good.
# [02:50] <JonathanNeal> Armen: i know right
# [02:51] <alex___> wait a little bit
# [02:51] <JonathanNeal> good call jdalton about the html string
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# [02:51] <alex___> your last commit doesn't work
# [02:51] <alex___> if someone is changeing the options
# [02:52] <jdalton> brb gotta clean
# [02:52] <alex___> the hole thing already was executed
# [02:52] <alex___> this was the reason, why i checked the options inside of the replaced method
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# [03:00] <JonathanNeal> alex___: so we duckpunch whether they want it or not, it's what the duckpunch does that changes.
# [03:01] <alex___> just looked into your code and you have removed now some of the things i have done for performance
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# [03:01] <alex___> with every call of createElement you are invoking shivDocument
# [03:02] <alex___> this means that by creating a new element you are searching for a head element
# [03:05] <JonathanNeal> yes, yes, i understand.
# [03:05] <alex___> and about the options: the options are created in the shiv script and the main shiv method is invoked immediately
# [03:05] <alex___> so there is no chance to change the option before the script is running
# [03:06] <alex___> yeah, i know both things (option and splitting methods) looked stupid, but this was on purpose
# [03:07] <JonathanNeal> there is really no way to prevent shiving because this script is used without a switch or method to begin it.
# [03:07] <alex___> in the old html5shiv
# [03:08] <alex___> i used an option pick up technique
# [03:08] <JonathanNeal> we could make it use options if an existing html5 object exists.
# [03:09] <alex___> yes
# [03:09] <JonathanNeal> <script>html5 = {options: { shivMethods: false } };</script>
# [03:09] <JonathanNeal> is this why you put the methods on the root object?
# [03:09] <alex___> but you don't have to make this too dificult
# [03:09] <alex___> in case of shiving the create methods
# [03:09] <JonathanNeal> no we don't because we can remove the shivDocument language and push the shivMethods and shivCSS to the root object.
# [03:11] <alex___> if you are doing it this way, i would alter the option to be something like noShiv[CSS|DOM]
# [03:11] <alex___> so we don't have to check for undefined
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# [03:11] <grantg> hey, is the preferences panel in Google Chrome Canary busted for anyone else?
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# [03:12] <grantg> Crash every time on mac os x
# [03:13] <JonathanNeal> like it more now, alex___?
# [03:14] <JonathanNeal> now people can set the options for shivMethods, shivCSS, and even the elements themselves before the script is loaded.
# [03:15] <JonathanNeal> jdalton: how do you believe this contributes to your concerns regarding performance, https://github.com/aFarkas/html5shiv/issues/20 ?
# [03:15] <socialhapy> ★ Issue #20 on html5shiv, reported by paulirish (1m, 1w ago): investigate performance
# [03:16] * grantg opens up chrome, hits restore, gets insta crash. :/
# [03:16] <alex___> wait this pickup option thing does not work either, because there is no differnece between undefined and false
# [03:17] <alex___> in your check
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# [03:19] <JonathanNeal> easy fix, thank you
# [03:19] <alex___> i have commited something for you
# [03:20] <JonathanNeal> pulling
# [03:21] <JonathanNeal> alex___: you're awesome :)
# [03:21] <JonathanNeal> i think we can remove the ( and ) though, right? or keep it and let the minifier do its job...
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# [03:21] <JonathanNeal> preference?
# [03:22] <JonathanNeal> I just added them to all, let the minifier / uglifier do its job.
# [03:23] <JonathanNeal> it is more readable (if it wasn't, you wouldn't have added them)
# [03:23] <JonathanNeal> This is great, I think we've made some really good improvements since v3.
# [03:24] <JonathanNeal> It's going to be leaner, faster, and more configurable.
# [03:25] <jdalton> JonathanNeal got a link to the newest code?
# [03:25] <alex___> well the 3.0 version was already the lean version
# [03:25] <JonathanNeal> jdalton: https://github.com/aFarkas/html5shiv/blob/master/src/html5shiv.js
# [03:25] <alex___> i hated to look at the 2.x version, so ugly code :-9
# [03:26] * paul_irish likes extra () because not everyone knows operator precedence rules
# [03:26] <JonathanNeal> yay and paul likes it
# [03:26] <paul_irish> ? false : true
# [03:27] <paul_irish> commonnnnnnnnnnnnnn
# [03:27] <JonathanNeal> @ paul_irish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYEXzx-TINc
# [03:27] <paul_irish> (html5 && html5.shivMethods === false) ? false : true,
# [03:27] <paul_irish> \/
# [03:27] <paul_irish> (html5 && !(html5.shivMethods === false))
# [03:27] <paul_irish> or rather
# [03:27] <paul_irish> !(html5 && html5.shivMethods === false)
# [03:28] <alex___> https://github.com/aFarkas/html5shiv/blob/master/src/html5shiv.js#L26 should also have: if ( (supportsHtml5Styles && supportsUnknownElements) || scopeDocument.documentShived) {
# [03:28] <alex___> human code obfuscator
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# [03:28] <JonathanNeal> alex___: supporting html5 styles is separate
# [03:30] <alex___> ok, didn't check
# [03:30] <jdalton> nice clean code
# [03:31] <jdalton> its uses a simplified loop and filters more elements so perf is gonna be better than it was
# [03:31] <alex___> yeah i made a test it's about 1.6 times faster than old version
# [03:32] <JonathanNeal> yay for tests
# [03:32] <alex___> i have also checkedin a simple perf-test, which is not good for development, because it uses additional dom operations like appendChild and innerHTML
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# [03:33] <alex___> but this tests show, that createElement is not the main bottleneck, so making createElement x times slower shouldn't be a big problem in most cases
# [03:35] <alex___> it's now 3:30 in berlin and i have to work today, so i go to sleep. just one thing, our changes have to be manually moved to the printshiv too
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# [03:36] <alex___> the code is mostly identical and the following lines can be simply replaced: https://github.com/aFarkas/html5shiv/blob/master/src/html5shiv-printshiv.js#L1-94
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# [03:37] <alex___> are you fine with it, that i leave now. i think you can finalize 3.2 alone, if not, i would like to look tomorrow into the new nice code :-)
# [03:40] <alex___> @jonathan: !(html5 && html5.shivMethods === false)
# [03:42] <alex___> ok, cu tomorrow
# [03:43] <paul_irish> :)
# [03:43] <paul_irish> seeyaa
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# [03:51] <JonathanNeal> bye alex
# [03:51] <JonathanNeal> wife needed me for a budget summit :)
# [03:54] <JonathanNeal> Other than a failure of mine to understand what jdalton wants changed with supportsHtml5Styles, I think we're good.
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# [04:53] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish and others, thoughts on html5shiv and credits --- so much code is now shared by many contributors, the shout outs to jdalton are many, and his latest commit is something paul found, and it's all just really starting to become a community project. i wouldn't mind eventually crediting it to the html5boilerplate team if all of the contributors are also h5bp team members too.
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# [05:07] <justicefries> /join node.js
# [05:07] <justicefries> whoops.
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# [05:30] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: how about a humans.txt or.. an AUTHORS file in the github..... or better. .lets just track authorship in the readme
# [05:30] <paul_irish> or
# [05:30] <paul_irish> i can just update the html5shiv story
# [05:30] <paul_irish> yes that
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# [06:41] <Crema10> hi html gurus
# [06:42] <Crema10> anybody know of a good video guide for learning HTML5? I'm an extreme newbie so i'd like something that will cater for me
# [06:43] <ChrisPartridge> Crema10: check out http://www.html5rocks.com/en/
# [06:43] <Crema10> cool, will do, thanks Chris
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# [07:28] <chuck_tes> hi. this isnt an html5 question but i figure id give it a shot. i downloaded this template (http://www.flashmo.com/preview/flashmo_244_diamond_cafe). I can't figure out how to change the text for the sections (Introduction, Our Company, Services, ect).
# [07:29] <tw2113> ewww flash
# [07:29] <sebadoh> you buy adobe flash, unfortunately.
# [07:29] <chuck_tes> i know i know.
# [07:29] <sebadoh> you need it to edit the flv file.
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# [07:30] <chuck_tes> yeah i've tried that. i opened it in adobe flash and was messing with it. strangely, it only shows 1 button rather than all 7
# [07:30] <tw2113> fla file i think?
# [07:31] <chuck_tes> so im figuring there is like some script generating the buttons when it renders in browser.
# [07:31] <tw2113> i dunno, i haven't touched flash since 2007
# [07:31] <sebadoh> try #flash
# [07:31] <sebadoh> youre in the wrong place.
# [07:31] <chuck_tes> i tried but the channel doesn't exist. i get redirected to ##nameserve
# [07:32] <sebadoh> heh
# [07:32] <sebadoh> :/
# [07:32] <chuck_tes> i've been trying several different places. everything else I can customize, just the titles I can't figure out.
# [07:33] <tw2113> flash is a completely different beast than html/css/js
# [07:33] <sebadoh> I think you need to change frames.
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# [09:02] <jetienne_> morning
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# [09:58] <paul_irish> http://criptex.org.ua/projects/heart/
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# [10:22] <jetienne_> nice :)
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# [10:37] <KH442> Neat, will be real good for Skype/AWS folks to put it as indicative of their service health ;)
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# [10:37] <xec> hehe, i love how there's all this fancy css3 going on, and to position the heart, there's loads of <br> and a <center> :D
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# [11:35] <l0ne_druid> i have a query regarding keygen tag in html5,can anyone help me out
# [11:38] <l0ne_druid> Is any1 active ??
# [11:38] <krijn> JakeA: what's an extry?
# [11:38] <krijn> A failed toilet attempt perhaps? Hm
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# [11:40] <JakeA> Doh
# [11:40] <JakeA> This is why I don't blog often
# [11:40] <krijn> :)
# [11:41] <JakeA> My eyes are bleeding from reading that spec
# [11:41] <l0ne_druid> where is the private key generated by keygen tag in html5 is stored??
# [11:42] <JakeA> It feels like AppCache have once been simple, but then had lots of little "if"s and "but"s taped onto it following edge cases
# [11:42] <krijn> JakeA: sounds like a perfect setup for a new presentation :)
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# [11:43] <JakeA> :D hopefully
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# [12:24] <l0ne_druid> where is the private key generated by keygen tag in html5 is stored??
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# [15:02] <mantas322> if I cache an image, using cache manifest on a mobile browser
# [15:03] <mantas322> then I go to that images DIRECT path via urls in airplane mode
# [15:03] <mantas322> why wouldnt it loads
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# [15:03] <mantas322> are there different cache limitations amungs different mobile browsers?
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# [15:55] <louisremi> Hi, I thought there was an alternative to using a dummy canvas in order to serialize an image to a dataURL. Was that only a dream?
# [15:59] <andrewjbaker> Hmm...
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# [16:00] <andrewjbaker> Is it possible to grab the binary contents of the image and base64 encode it?
# [16:00] <andrewjbaker> That would give you a data URL.
# [16:00] <JakeA> you can get the binary data if the image comes from a file input or drag & drop
# [16:00] * Ducki__ is now known as Ducki
# [16:01] <JakeA> (except in safari, because it's shit)
# [16:02] <andrewjbaker> img.toDataURL() would be nice. :-D
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# [16:03] <andrewjbaker> I think there's a proposal in for SVG, but not sure.
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# [16:04] <JakeA> HTMLImageElement.prototype.xToDataURL = function() { …use canvas... };
# [16:04] <JakeA> but yeah, would be nice native
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# [16:05] <andrewjbaker> Ya.
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# [16:06] <louisremi> alright, thanks guys
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# [16:09] <logeshpaul> welcome Viduthalai
# [16:10] <Viduthalai> hey..:)
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# [18:13] <JonathanNeal> i think there are now a few bugs with https://github.com/aFarkas/html5shiv/blob/master/src/html5shiv.js
# [18:14] <JonathanNeal> namely you can't post-append elements to the list anymore, and the element name is wrong. just fyi i'd like a bit to fix 'em.
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# [18:17] <paul_irish> ok. afarkas said he'd wait till 3.2 issues are done
# [18:17] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: so file a ticket first
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# [18:27] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: sure
# [18:27] <JonathanNeal> also, should [hidden] hide text from screen readers?
# [18:27] <paul_irish> heh.
# [18:27] <JonathanNeal> does the spec say?
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# [18:38] <paul_irish> bot-t1: tell grantg from one of the v8 engineers.. "I'll try to put some feedback about Crankshaft optimization on the team's OKRs, with the ultimate idea to expose some of it to the dev tools. " :D :D
# [18:38] <bot-t1> paul_irish, Okay.
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# [18:56] <ajim> hey guys
# [18:56] <ajim> anyone interested in developing a "generic" HTML5 GUI framework?
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# [18:57] <JonathanNeal> ajim: what's that mean?
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# [18:57] <ajim> well, here's the drill
# [18:58] <ajim> a few months ago i realized that the "world of programming" is headed towards disaster
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# [18:58] <ajim> and what i mean is that there's not one single framework out there that one can rely upon anymore
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# [18:59] <ajim> Qt is all but jettisoned, .NET is only officially implemented on windows, Java is very unlikely to ever get on android and iOS, etc
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# [19:00] <divya> there are so many HTML5 gui frameworks
# [19:00] <ryan_tait> yup
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# [19:00] <ryan_tait> i've lost count
# [19:00] <ajim> so nowadays what exactly is a programmer supposed to do if he wants to develop an cross-platform app with some chances for the underlying framework to still be supported in a couple of years from now
# [19:01] <ajim> by HTML5 GUI framework i mean
# [19:02] <ajim> a sockets-based HTML5 "page" on which an app can programatically add buttons/text/widgets/you-name-it (via the local loop)
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# [19:02] <ajim> so you open this "page" in a [stripped-down] browser (i.e. it can be with no chrome), and then the "page" listens to commands on a socket
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# [19:03] <ajim> so the app you'd write would look like: <program_in_whatever_language_with_a_socket_interface> <local_loop> <HTML5_GUI_page>
# [19:05] <ajim> i mean, i just realized that i can't start writing a program anymore because you really can't tell what development framework will still be around in a couple of years from now
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# [19:05] <PainBank> roll your own... from the sounds of what your describing, all the work is on the back end... send across the socket whatever HTML / css / javascript goodness you want to
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# [19:06] <ajim> how much should be on the backend and how much in JS on the browser is a matter of design decision that i dind't really think very much about
# [19:07] <remysharp> paul_irish: you asked about that device motion polyfill - I put it live today - though it's a polyfill for dev only, not production (so kinda half-yay): http://remote-tilt.com
# [19:07] <ajim> but it shouldn't matter to the user, because the user should only use some UI classes and he shouldn't care how their implementation is split between the backend and the browser
# [19:08] <ajim> if you put more "intelligence" in the browser, the UI classes would be easier to implement in multiple languages (i guess)
# [19:09] <ajim> my point is: i think this is the future of programming for anything that doesn't require very high I/O speed on the UI, and i was wondering how could i get this started
# [19:09] <ajim> anyone here has any experience with starting an open source project?
# [19:10] <ryan_tait> remysharp: that is sick remy
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# [19:10] <PainBank> pay me. :)
# [19:10] <jetienne> hmm console.assert(false) doesnt trigger an exception ?
# [19:10] <PainBank> or roll your own.
# [19:10] <remysharp> ryan_tait: cheers :)
# [19:10] <PainBank> start off with an example socket server app... send basic html elements over and add to dom dynamically.
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# [19:10] <paul_irish> remysharp: this is hot
# [19:11] <remysharp> itch => scratch => release :)
# [19:12] <ajim> PainBank -> yes, sure, but the thing is i'd like to start this thing right, because there's not much "prototypiong" to do here, not much research involved, it's just to define the framweork properly and then implement it right
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# [19:12] <ajim> basically, i might start doing it alone, but i'd rather like to make a multi-contributor project out of this
# [19:12] <divya> err ajim most of the gui frameworks are open source projects
# [19:13] <divya> you could evaluate one and adapt them for your purpose
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# [19:13] <ajim> divya -> which ones are you talking about (a couple of examples so i understand what you mean)
# [19:13] <PainBank> ajim: right. agree with divya as well.
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# [19:14] <PainBank> ajim: you can also create your github project and start posting updates here... someone might jump in and start working on it too.
# [19:15] <ajim> yeah, probably i should try that first...
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# [19:17] <PainBank> get enough excitement about it and who knows.
# [19:19] <ajim> i think this is the next holly grail
# [19:19] <ryan_tait> remysharp: again wow.. this is going to be a life saver :) thanks!
# [19:19] <ajim> you have standards for programming for ages now, but no standards were available for UIs
# [19:19] <ajim> now suh standards seem to come to age
# [19:19] <ajim> so basically this will close the circle
# [19:19] <ajim> (i mean having a standard UI language)
# [19:20] <PainBank> looking forward to seeing your posts on this then.
# [19:20] <ajim> how i ran into this:
# [19:20] <ajim> i wanted to write a "skype killer"
# [19:21] <ajim> and i ran in two problems:
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# [19:21] <ajim> 1) i always counted on writing it in Qt once i finish with the "research" stage
# [19:21] <ajim> and now Qt is going no-one-knows-where
# [19:21] <Pomax> three problems.
# [19:22] <Pomax> 3) NO ONE has figured out how to make skype actually profitable
# [19:22] <ajim> 2) IPv6 is going no-one-knows-where
# [19:22] <Pomax> it's been sold more times than I've had coffees today.
# [19:22] <ajim> i didn't think of making something profitable
# [19:22] <ajim> i just wanted an open alternative
# [19:22] <jetienne> Pomax: the ones who sold it for 8.5 billions may disagree
# [19:22] <ajim> so that people can have a choice, and this would have put some real pressure on skype to behave
# [19:23] <Pomax> if a product only makes you money by ditching it through a sale, that's not a solid business plan ;)
# [19:23] <ajim> jetienne -> thanks for taking over, i didn't want to be sarcastic :-)
# [19:23] <Pomax> business plan for the technology, at least. excellent business plan for sell-a-startup-
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# [19:23] <Pomax> in which case you don't want to write a skype killer.
# [19:24] <Pomax> you want to make a product that seems so cool people will pay billions for it and then you laugh at them.
# [19:24] <jetienne> ajim: have you looked at WebRTC ?
# [19:24] <ajim> dude, if the profit you're talking about s in the billions, IN A F* UP WORLD AS IS TODAY WHERE YOU CAN'T COUNT ON ANYTHING ABYMORE, selling for $8b the best biz plan ever :-)
# [19:24] <Pomax> yes, for PEOPLE
# [19:24] <ajim> WebRTC -> no
# [19:24] <ajim> checking it out now
# [19:24] <Pomax> not if your focus is to make a working technology
# [19:24] <jetienne> ajim: this is opensource and all. i think you should before starting to code
# [19:24] <Pomax> then selling it means you lost.
# [19:25] <Pomax> so if you want to make lots of money: try to make something that seems better than skype
# [19:25] <ajim> jetienne -> i'll check it out
# [19:25] <ajim> (WebRTC)
# [19:25] <Pomax> but if you want to make something that actually IS better than skype... I have questions.
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# [19:25] <Pomax> mostly of the "why would I fund you" kind.
# [19:26] <ajim> Pomax
# [19:26] <ajim> http://p2pos.com
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# [19:26] <jetienne> ajim: it recently landed in chrome dev. you can try it
# [19:27] <ajim> i'll have to see what it's about first, i mean, if it is what i'm thinking of (standradized cross-platform GUI enabler)
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# [19:28] <jetienne> ajim: from 10000miles you could call it "skype in a browser". so it may be relevant to your goal
# [19:28] <ajim> i don't really want skype in a browser, no no no
# [19:28] <ajim> i'm on a totally different path with what i was talking about
# [19:28] <ajim> i mean
# [19:29] <jetienne> on another topic, how come console.assert(false) doesnt trigger an exception ? what does this do ? just display a message ?
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# [19:30] <ajim> i want to have something on the lines of Borland builder/Qt Creator/etc, but it should use a simple HTML5 renderer for all UI instead of platform specific stuff
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# [19:32] <PainBank> ajim: take a look at Construct 2
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# [19:33] <ajim> checking (Construct 2) ....
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# [19:34] <ajim> okay, i added hat to the to read list
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# [19:37] <ajim> but i hope i managed to make myself clear enough: at the end of the day i want to be able to write a C++ program whose (probably only) eveny will be "socket data received" and whose (probably only) output will be "write to socket", and this program should rely on a my HTML5 GUI "page" to do all the user interaction
# [19:38] <PainBank> you basically have an MVC app, but the MC part is done on the server side, whereas the V is done in browser.
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# [19:38] <skylamer`> MVVM!
# [19:39] <PainBank> right on, that is what I thought you were talking about. Want to support different frameworks, just add the send of whatever framework supported code you need to send.
# [19:39] <ajim> yes, but maybe the C will also be split
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# [19:41] <ajim> PainBank, i'll tell you why i'd like to not work alone on this: i have a very nasty experience with my "skype killer" in the sense that i simply diregarded some basic issues, i simply DIDN'T SEE THEM until after i spent a freakin' year working on it
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# [19:42] <ajim> i mean, i'd really value some brainstorming both before starting such a project, and in the course of its actual development
# [19:43] <ajim> i sort of lost confidence in my abilities to spot all the potential problems that may lie ahead
# [19:43] <ajim> and it's a lot of work we're talking about...
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# [19:45] <PainBank> ajim: agree, but I didn't say to do that. :) Just said start on it, post some stuff, examples... keep it hello world simple stuff and see how it goes. I am sure you will get a few people to try it and look at it.
# [19:45] <PainBank> if it goes well, keep doing it. if not, then drop it and look at other ideas.
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# [19:46] <ajim> yup
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# [19:46] <ajim> was hpoing to find someone to say "kewl, let's do it!" here :-)
# [19:46] <PainBank> onlye 247 folks on here... sorry. :(
# [19:47] <ajim> :D
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# [19:51] <ajim> well, laterz all, and thanks
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# [19:54] <JonathanNeal> how do i get gh-pages to update from master?
# [19:55] <JonathanNeal> i'll try http://lea.verou.me/2011/10/easily-keep-gh-pages-in-sync-with-master/
# [19:55] <ryan_tait> lol
# [19:55] <ryan_tait> i was just reading that
# [19:55] <ryan_tait> had the same question
# [19:56] <JonathanNeal> now, the question is, doing it in tortoise
# [19:56] <JonathanNeal> did i just commit to gh-pages or master.
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# [19:57] <Pomax> I make my gh-pages files simply link to whatever's hosted in master
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# [19:58] <Pomax> (keeping the .html in gh-pages, and the project-relevant .js files in master, then linking to https://raw.github.com/user/project/master/lolcakes.js)
# [19:59] <JonathanNeal> woo
# [19:59] <JonathanNeal> http://afarkas.github.com/html5shiv/html5shiv.min.js
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# [20:05] <Conexion> Hmm. In Firefox, is anyone else seeing the second character shrink? http://jsfiddle.net/bqKqZ/
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# [20:26] <JonathanNeal> Conexion: the character looks radically different in Firefox vs Chrome on Win7.
# [20:27] <JonathanNeal> I don't see a difference in either browser between the regular and bold versions.
# [20:27] <JonathanNeal> So ... in Chrome, both look bold, and in Firefox, neither look bold.
# [20:27] <Conexion> JonathanNeal: It is odd. Like, Chrome is slightly smaller than Firefox, but then Firefox's character gets drastically smaller when given a bold weight
# [20:27] <Conexion> Is that what you see? I'm currently on XP at work
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# [20:28] <JonathanNeal> so in Firefox i see a skinny x.
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# [20:28] <JonathanNeal> and in chrome i see a fat x.
# [20:28] <JonathanNeal> like they are drastically different fonts between the browsers.
# [20:29] <Conexion> Interesting
# [20:29] <Conexion> That's even weirder
# [20:30] <mantas322> test
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# [20:31] <ajim> just came back to show you guys this: http://www.webtoolkit.eu
# [20:32] <ajim> (see e.g. http://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt/examples/ )
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# [20:32] <JonathanNeal> http://www.danshort.com/HTMLentities/index.php?w=dingb heavy multiplication X
# [20:32] <JonathanNeal> Conexion: ^
# [20:34] <Conexion> JonathanNeal: I was mainly curious if I could embolden a heavy multiplication character
# [20:34] <Conexion> Apparently the same thing happens if I use a non-heavy character
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# [20:58] <JonathanNeal> Conexion: in Firefox it looks like they don't use the Heavy multiplication X, they use the regular one.
# [20:59] <JonathanNeal> it's just much more faint.
# [20:59] <JonathanNeal> which is a bummer because their heavy greek cross is exactly the thickness we would expect.
# [20:59] <JonathanNeal> i would almost suggest you use that and css rotate it, which is really sad.
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# [21:45] <paul_irish> http://coderbyte.com/ a learn programming by doing javascript challenges site. looks nice
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# [22:19] <ProLoser|Work> is it just me or did google give up on their new suite-wide layout?
# [22:19] <ProLoser|Work> cuz i still see the black bar everywhere
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# [22:30] <chee> 20:51 -!- DJVoracek [~J_Voracek@71.21.195.70] has joined #html5
# [22:30] <chee> 20:51 < DJVoracek>
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# [22:31] <chee> wat
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# [22:44] <EasyAt|> Is it a better idea to use the <video> tag or a flash module if I want to stream video. I have been using flow player for awhile and am wondering if I should switch over to letting the browser do it
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# [22:52] <EasyAt|> No oppinions?
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# [22:58] <JonathanNeal> EasyAt|: i like mediaelement.js
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# [22:59] <EasyAt|> Ooh, that's nice. So it chooses whether to use a flashplayer or html5?
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# [23:06] <moo-_-> EasyAt|: you come to #html5 channel and dare to ask whether you should use flash? :)
# [23:07] <EasyAt|> hehe, I was wondering if that was taboo... It's just that the codec support is so flaky
# [23:08] <moo-_-> true
# [23:08] <moo-_-> I did native HTML5 + flowplayer fallback for firefox
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# [23:25] <moo-_-> in fact it was
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# [23:25] <moo-_-> nativev HTML5 + flowplayer + thumbnail and link to h264 file for mobile browseres
# [23:25] <moo-_-> android cannot handle <vide>
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# [23:27] <EasyAt|> Does HTML5 video have much advantage over flowplayer/similar products. Or just to um further the html5 effect
# [23:28] <EasyAt|> I mean, I would like to be done with flash asap
# [23:29] <moo-_-> EasyAt|: works on iOS
# [23:29] <moo-_-> jobs approved
# [23:30] <moo-_-> of course, no one would want to build a website which works on tablets too today :)
# [23:30] <EasyAt|> moo-_-: haven't you heard? Jobs has lost his popular vote as of late
# [23:31] <moo-_-> I see how people are running in to shops to but flash player enabled tablets and mobiles
# [23:31] <moo-_-> oopps, adobe did discontinue flash for mobile :)
# [23:31] <moo-_-> so vote for <video> is vote for future
# [23:31] <EasyAt|> I like that
# [23:32] * theresa_away is now known as theresaanna
# [23:32] <moo-_-> which reminds me to go to voting tomorrow for Finland's president
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# Session Close: Tue Jan 31 00:00:00 2012

The end :)