/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-02-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 15 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  5. # [00:05] <cheilmann> http://jsfiddle.net/codepo8/4Zcx8/
  6. # [00:07] <tw2113> good, i don't have to fix your prefixing :)
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  93. # [02:04] <sausage2> hi. If a tag is unknown.. i.e. <video> SOMETHING </video>..... and I but something within the unknown tags..... will that SOMETHING be shown by a browser that doesnt support the <video> tag?
  94. # [02:05] <ryanseddon> yes
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  96. # [02:06] <sausage2> .
  97. # [02:06] <sausage2> OwKai
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  99. # [02:06] <sausage2> No weird error messages from the browser? Like "this page contains errors"?
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  102. # [02:08] <ryanseddon> nope should be fine
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  105. # [02:13] <sausage2> If you happen to have a dog, can I have it then?
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  109. # [02:20] <sausage2> what's the difference between <object> and <embed> ?
  110. # [02:22] <boogyman> `g html object vs embed
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  115. # [02:23] <boogyman> sausage2: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1244788/embed-vs-object
  116. # [02:23] <sausage2> thnx
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  131. # [02:59] <sausage2> the URL thing that appears in doctype (http://w3c.com/something), is it really necessary?
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  137. # [03:07] <boogyman> sausage2: if you would like to validate markup against a specific revision, yes, but as of this "revision", no <!DOCTYPE html> is sufficient
  138. # [03:09] * Josh is now known as TheColonel
  139. # [03:10] <sausage2> no <!DOCTYPE is sufficient? What do you mean?
  140. # [03:10] <boogyman> now*
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  142. # [03:12] <tw2113> <!doctype html> was the shortest string that triggered standards mode in all browsers
  143. # [03:13] <tw2113> it was a happy accident
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  150. # [03:36] <sausage2> is it good or bad to just use <!DOCTYPE HTML> ? I just saw that on a professional webpage
  151. # [03:42] <Jon47> sausage2 it's not good or bad, depends on the format of your document, but if you're using html5, or you don't give a shit about doctypes, then it's good
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  153. # [03:44] <sausage2> I am using html5.
  154. # [03:44] <sausage2> potentially..
  155. # [03:44] <Jon47> then do it up
  156. # [03:44] <sausage2> so what does <!DOCTYPE HTML> mean?
  157. # [03:44] <sausage2> Jon47: you mean that I should do <!DOCTYPE HTML>
  158. # [03:44] <Jon47> it means you're using html
  159. # [03:44] <Jon47> it would be my recommendation
  160. # [03:45] <sausage2> and will the browsers use html5 in that case? probably
  161. # [03:45] <Jon47> some people probably have a good reason to keep using XHTML or some other doctype
  162. # [03:45] <sausage2> Jon47: why not use the full !<doctype for html5?
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  164. # [03:46] <boogyman> <!DOCTYPE html> is the declaration for HTML5, because "HTML5" is now "HTML"
  165. # [03:46] <Jon47> frankly, any decent browser will render it the same no matter what you put there, the whole point of html is to work even if the content is horribly malformed
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  173. # [03:55] <tw2113> the doctype is still the trigger for quirks vs standards mode
  174. # [03:55] <tw2113> it will not dictate whether IE6 knows what to do with the new markup or not
  175. # [03:56] <tw2113> because IE6 is a load and doesn't know anyway, needs js to know it can style the new tags
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  183. # [04:14] <destryalhmns> quick question - sessionstorage and localstorage vs old school cookies for cross domain
  184. # [04:15] <destryalhmns> like, my site cannot read youtube cookies or sessionstorage or localstorage, right?
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  186. # [04:16] <sausage2> oh god. Should I use XHTML to support iPhone surfers better? Doesnt XHTML require less resources from the browser?
  187. # [04:16] <destryalhmns> even with iframe pwnage
  188. # [04:16] <sausage2> instead of html_/5/_?
  189. # [04:16] <sausage2> On-topic!
  190. # [04:19] <grantg> When you say XHTML, 99.999999% of the time you really mean broken HTML that looks like XML
  191. # [04:19] <grantg> Because almost all sites that do "XHTML" send the html mime type, whether the devs realize it or not
  192. # [04:20] <grantg> you've got to override the content-type header in PHP and use .xhtml for xhtml docs
  193. # [04:20] <grantg> Also, if it really was XHTML, IE8 and below wouldn't be able to render it
  194. # [04:20] <grantg> would give you a download box fyi
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  199. # [04:24] <grantg> Anyone like the results of the manually implemented "optimize-contrast" in a rescaler in js, but with better accuracy than nearest-neighbor, and without the aliasation (and is bi-linear when out size is smaller than original).
  200. # [04:24] <grantg> http://imgur.com/a/SbMT1
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  203. # [04:25] <grantg> top picture of it is the framebuffer rescaler in js, the bottom is letting the browser do it
  204. # [04:26] <grantg> WebKit needs to fix image-rendering: -webkit-optimize-contrast so it's not using the shit nearest-neighbor algo, which causes pixel boundary aliasation
  205. # [04:26] <grantg> rather than running average over framing boundaries
  206. # [04:27] <grantg> :/
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  208. # [04:29] <destryalhmns> grantg, i didnt get any of that
  209. # [04:29] <grantg> lol
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  211. # [04:29] <destryalhmns> got you on webkit
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  213. # [04:30] <grantg> Wrote a small script recently that scales image framebuffers - https://github.com/grantgalitz/JS-Image-Resizer/blob/master/resize.js
  214. # [04:30] <grantg> accepts RGB and RGBA
  215. # [04:30] <grantg> The top image in that imgur pic is it being resized with the algo in js
  216. # [04:31] <grantg> the second is resizing by CSS
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  218. # [04:31] <grantg> It seems to do up to 600x600 at 60 fps
  219. # [04:31] <grantg> Any further causes chrome to take a performance shit
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  221. # [04:31] <grantg> ...lol
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  223. # [04:34] <destryalhmns> tiny youtube http://www.seanmchugh.info/awesomeidea.htm
  224. # [04:34] <destryalhmns> css zooming
  225. # [04:34] <grantg> Or set your canvas to framebuffer width and height
  226. # [04:34] <grantg> and scale in css
  227. # [04:35] <grantg> css zooming doesn't work in all browsers
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  229. # [04:35] <grantg> canvas can be set with specific width and height, and then you can set different height and widths and css
  230. # [04:35] <grantg> the css width and height scales the canvas result then
  231. # [04:36] <destryalhmns> nice
  232. # [04:36] <grantg> Unfortunately Google Chrome 17 and below leak like shit and is slow as hell due to improper texture memory handling
  233. # [04:37] <grantg> Chrome releases and allocs every draw when css scaled in chrome 17 and below it seems
  234. # [04:37] <grantg> hence slower than doing it in js in chrome 17 and below. :/
  235. # [04:38] <destryalhmns> ms?
  236. # [04:38] <grantg> chrome 18+ is fast though
  237. # [04:38] <grantg> destryalhmns: ?
  238. # [04:38] <destryalhmns> like what do you mean by slower, assuming you expect your audience to have or be able to get a decent browser
  239. # [04:39] <grantg> slower as in it's faster to actually scale the image's 2d array in js than to let the browser do it
  240. # [04:39] <grantg> Thankfully google chrome has a high version turn-around
  241. # [04:40] <grantg> so as soon as beta goes stable, it won't be a problem anymore
  242. # [04:40] <grantg> except on windows
  243. # [04:40] <grantg> chrome still sucks up cpu with some improper allocing and dealloc every draw
  244. # [04:41] <boogyman> are you a developer with the chrome project?
  245. # [04:41] <grantg> no
  246. # [04:41] <grantg> Just tracked the gfx bugfix on this
  247. # [04:41] <grantg> They fixed the slowness in 18
  248. # [04:42] <grantg> for drawing to canvas not 1:!
  249. # [04:42] <grantg> *1:1
  250. # [04:42] <grantg> At least firefox doesn't realloc every draw
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  252. # [04:43] <destryalhmns> my observation of ff http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2418155
  253. # [04:44] <grantg> lol
  254. # [04:45] <grantg> You're having cache problems only on firefox?
  255. # [04:45] <destryalhmns> can't find the one about firebug... the web inspector is nice
  256. # [04:45] <destryalhmns> no, on many
  257. # [04:45] <grantg> guess what... google chrome mishandles html5 manifest files all the time
  258. # [04:45] <destryalhmns> but ff has been the worst experience
  259. # [04:45] <grantg> and hangs on to expired data all the time, even when told not to
  260. # [04:45] <destryalhmns> two solutions...
  261. # [04:46] <destryalhmns> in visual studio the web browser control is an instance of ie which you can clear manually..... that has been the best for me. second, safari is pretty good in terms of developer tools
  262. # [04:47] <grantg> lol
  263. # [04:47] <destryalhmns> ff clear buttons never work and they always want money
  264. # [04:47] <grantg> I hate safari now due to broken javascript support in safari stable, due to a major regression apple hasn't released a new version to fix
  265. # [04:48] <grantg> Safari has recursion glitches in its JIT that were fixed in the webkit nightlies that still haven't been pushed to stable
  266. # [04:48] <tw2113> eww safari
  267. # [04:49] <grantg> My JS GBC emulator causes Safari to crap out until you get Safari's gray screen of death
  268. # [04:49] <grantg> been like that for months
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  270. # [04:50] <grantg> http://www.grantgalitz.org/gamecenter/#PokemonYellow will cause Safari 5.1.2 to go into a constant reload loop until you get that gray screen of death
  271. # [04:50] <grantg> yeah...
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  273. # [04:53] <destryalhmns> theres the firebug forum -> http://www.warriorforum.com/main-internet-marketing-discussion-forum/95405-firebug-unbelievable-simply-wonderful.html
  274. # [04:54] <destryalhmns> im looking for the official ff bug forum i stumbled upon once
  275. # [04:54] <grantg> firebug is shit
  276. # [04:55] <grantg> You can't profile right, because it'll throw everything into interpreter
  277. # [04:55] <grantg> and just having firebug installed causes everything to slow down
  278. # [04:55] <destryalhmns> grantg im glad youre here to engage me in relatively casual conversation
  279. # [04:55] <grantg> even while disabled
  280. # [04:55] <grantg> lol
  281. # [04:57] <grantg> Another thing with google chrome - You have to make dummy canvas calls inside requestAnimationFrame if nothing needs to be drawn, otherwise chrome will screw up its frame timing
  282. # [04:58] <grantg> :I
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  284. # [04:59] <destryalhmns> have you ever tried http://raphaeljs.com/ ? - scoll down a bit and look at the demos
  285. # [04:59] <grantg> no
  286. # [04:59] <destryalhmns> it beats flash in some situations
  287. # [05:00] <grantg> I don't do vector stuff much
  288. # [05:00] <grantg> And I don't need IE6 compat when I do
  289. # [05:00] <destryalhmns> dude look at it
  290. # [05:00] <grantg> IE6 through IE8 use VRML, which raphaeljs hacks through
  291. # [05:01] <destryalhmns> so youve known about it and decided before it was a hack?
  292. # [05:01] <destryalhmns> its svg
  293. # [05:02] <grantg> No, the IE compat is a hack
  294. # [05:02] <grantg> IE6 doesn't do SVG
  295. # [05:02] <destryalhmns> ie6
  296. # [05:03] <destryalhmns> you know too much man
  297. # [05:03] <grantg> not really
  298. # [05:04] <destryalhmns> good god safari it at 4% http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
  299. # [05:04] <destryalhmns> good god
  300. # [05:04] <shepazu> VML, not VRML
  301. # [05:05] <grantg> sorry. :P
  302. # [05:05] <grantg> I don't have my IE-proprietary tech lingo up to spec. :P
  303. # [05:05] <shepazu> :)
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  305. # [05:06] <grantg> I believe it's used in word and other microsoft apps though
  306. # [05:06] <grantg> not just IE
  307. # [05:06] <shepazu> correct
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  312. # [05:08] <destryalhmns> im guessing no one looked at raphael, as though it were a random youtube kitten video
  313. # [05:09] <grantg> heh
  314. # [05:09] <tw2113> i tinkered with raphael a bit the other day, but my fu isn't strong enough to do anything original yet
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  316. # [05:10] <grantg> IE9 does SVG anyhow
  317. # [05:10] <grantg> I remember somewhat some raphaeljs demos not working right in IE6 though
  318. # [05:10] <grantg> unless they fixed that
  319. # [05:10] <destryalhmns> lol
  320. # [05:10] <grantg> microsoft's own standard isn't exactly 1:1 with SVG or something
  321. # [05:11] <destryalhmns> now youre fucking with us man
  322. # [05:11] <grantg> not really
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  324. # [05:12] <grantg> Also, isn't VML in IE 5.5?
  325. # [05:12] <zivester> is there an html5 equivalent DOCTYPE to XHTML 1.0 Strict? is html5 by nature "strict" ?
  326. # [05:13] <grantg> I remember microsoft added a lot, especially the filter shit for css, in ie 5.5
  327. # [05:13] <grantg> opacity filters with the zoom hack.... good times
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  329. # [05:14] <destryalhmns> sry if this is the wrong answer
  330. # [05:14] <grantg> zoom: 1; <- the frustration of y2k web developers
  331. # [05:14] <destryalhmns> <!DOCTYPE>
  332. # [05:15] <grantg> anyhow, I don't use vector gfx that much, hence the lack of raphaeljs on my part
  333. # [05:15] <grantg> most stuff is still bitmapped
  334. # [05:16] <destryalhmns> why care about how its drawn? shouldnt you only care about whats easiest for you and your users experience?
  335. # [05:16] <destryalhmns> drill down into raphael... i think they made that for a deeper purpose... like their companies core
  336. # [05:17] <grantg> Because you photoshop with bitmapped images
  337. # [05:17] <destryalhmns> dude look at the tutorials for a minute
  338. # [05:17] <destryalhmns> it does cool stuff easy that photoshop or free gimp does not do
  339. # [05:18] <grantg> I mean importing stuff from photochop
  340. # [05:18] <grantg> Most people keep images as images, not as xml files
  341. # [05:19] <destryalhmns> gimp does equally cool stuff
  342. # [05:19] <destryalhmns> and no one is expecting you to draw an image with svg unless you are awesome
  343. # [05:19] <destryalhmns> they are expecting you to draw a line... that will blow the mind of most users
  344. # [05:19] <shepazu> huh?
  345. # [05:19] <grantg> :I
  346. # [05:20] <destryalhmns> you can draw a static image with svg and awesome artists can... but users expect and need a quick tiny download
  347. # [05:20] <destryalhmns> however you will make their day if you can provide a quick lightweight svg to do something they havent seen
  348. # [05:21] <destryalhmns> $$$
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  350. # [05:21] <grantg> SVG also takes up a lot of cpu in browsers except IE when animated
  351. # [05:22] <grantg> I'd say WebGL is the future for animated gfx at least
  352. # [05:22] <grantg> gpu-hoisted
  353. # [05:22] <grantg> As it's OpenGL based
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  356. # [05:25] <destryalhmns> for the standard, non-game, programmer it's hard enough connecting two divs
  357. # [05:25] <grantg> lol
  358. # [05:25] <destryalhmns> and raphael makes that cake
  359. # [05:26] <destryalhmns> TF?
  360. # [05:26] <destryalhmns> no absolute coordinates without difficult hacks
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  362. # [05:32] <destryalhmns> okay grantg, ive probably overstepped my bounds. seriously, good talking to you.
  363. # [05:32] <grantg> lolwat
  364. # [05:33] <destryalhmns> it was good talking to a non-pretentious person who talked back with absolute fact backing them up
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  368. # [05:33] <destryalhmns> or maybe you thought that was absolute fact, lol jk
  369. # [05:33] <grantg> ok...
  370. # [05:34] <destryalhmns> without
  371. # [05:34] <destryalhmns> but whatever
  372. # [05:34] <destryalhmns> keep backing up ie6
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  495. # [08:33] <PPPPPPP> Can anyone recommend a simple html5 game engine?
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  530. # [09:33] <moo-_-> PPPPPPP: cocos2d-js
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  610. # [11:54] <niloy> when I mention charset, is it "utf8" or "utf-8"?
  611. # [11:55] <jetienne> utf-8
  612. # [11:55] <niloy> thanks
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  693. # [14:41] <skylamer`> paul_irish, very cool rediesign, gratz! :)
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  718. # [15:12] <WebDragon> skylamer`: redesign on what
  719. # [15:13] <cheilmann> html5rocks.com
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  721. # [15:13] <cheilmann> I guess
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  724. # [15:16] <WebDragon> mm yeah I see
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  765. # [16:21] <johnkpaul> I am confused about what initial-scale in meta name="viewport" means
  766. # [16:22] <johnkpaul> I assumed that initial-scale=1 meant, don't zoom at all, and display at the width specified
  767. # [16:22] <johnkpaul> but that isn't the case, so I'm misunderstanding
  768. # [16:22] <manuchill> isn't it covered in this presentation? https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dkx3qtm_22dxsrgcf4
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  770. # [16:24] <johnkpaul> yes, it is
  771. # [16:24] <johnkpaul> I'll go through it
  772. # [16:24] <johnkpaul> thanks!
  773. # [16:24] <manuchill> np
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  780. # [16:37] <johnkpaul> manuchill: sadly, that doesn't really cover initial-scale
  781. # [16:37] <johnkpaul> or scale at all
  782. # [16:37] <johnkpaul> it goes in depth on min/max-width and min/max-device-width
  783. # [16:38] <johnkpaul> first first page has an example using initial-scale
  784. # [16:38] <johnkpaul> the first*
  785. # [16:39] <johnkpaul> but this SO answer gave me what I needed - http://stackoverflow.com/a/8064943
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  788. # [16:43] <manuchill> johnkpaul, ah oke... thought it covered it, btw thx for sharing the SO answer
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  790. # [16:45] <JonathanNeal> hiya
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  798. # [16:52] <cisox> I'm working on a form, and I've got a <select> element with an empty <option value=""></option> element as it's first child. In Firefox and Google, this empty option doesn't show up. Is this a new behavior in HTML5?
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  800. # [16:55] <Jon47> cisox i have chrome and it shows an empty option for me
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  802. # [16:57] <cisox> Jon47: Hmm. Chrome and Firefox aren't even showing the empty option in the HTML source. I'll dig around. Thanks for the confirmation that there is something wrong.
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  810. # [17:02] <Jon47> cisox - no matter how the browser renders it they will show you exactly the markup that your server responded with if you view the source
  811. # [17:02] <Jon47> malformed content and all
  812. # [17:02] <Jon47> so when you say the source, do you mean "view source" or in the dev tools?
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  817. # [17:06] <arcanis> hi
  818. # [17:06] <arcanis> does someone know the name of the new html element which shadows its dom content ?
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  822. # [17:08] <arcanis> found ! http://glazkov.com/2011/01/14/what-the-heck-is-shadow-dom/
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  880. # [18:12] <remysharp> someone remind me what the window method is call that listens for any and all events please?
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  882. # [18:19] <johnkpaul> addEventListener?
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  884. # [18:20] <WebDragon> heya remysharp :)
  885. # [18:20] <remysharp> johnkpaul: nope
  886. # [18:20] <remysharp> WebDragon: hey
  887. # [18:20] <ryan_tait> remysharp: window.event?
  888. # [18:20] <WebDragon> remysharp: do I gather that you're no longer updating http://remysharp.com/jquery-api/ with the advent of jqapi.com ?
  889. # [18:21] <remysharp> WebDragon: that's long given up on - around the time they changed all the XML format.
  890. # [18:21] <WebDragon> okay
  891. # [18:21] <remysharp> ryan_tait: isn't that an IE thing - plus - you'd have to poll for changes
  892. # [18:21] <WebDragon> haven't looked at either in a while, but seeing your name just now triggered my memory LOL
  893. # [18:22] <miketaylr> window.captureEvents?
  894. # [18:22] <miketaylr> we playing DOM trivia?
  895. # [18:23] <remysharp> miketaylr: that's it
  896. # [18:23] <remysharp> cheers
  897. # [18:23] <ryan_tait> thats the one
  898. # [18:23] * miketaylr advances to round 2
  899. # [18:23] <remysharp> hmm
  900. # [18:23] <remysharp> no
  901. # [18:23] <WebDragon> hahahhah
  902. # [18:23] <miketaylr> lol
  903. # [18:24] <WebDragon> do not pass go, do not collect $200
  904. # [18:24] <remysharp> miketaylr: I thought I saw that there was a new method on the window that allows you to listen for *ALL* events in one fell swoop
  905. # [18:24] * WebDragon hides a chuckle in his coffeemug
  906. # [18:24] <miketaylr> remysharp: oh, not sure then
  907. # [18:25] <remysharp> maybe I just dreamt it. Damn, didn't have a use for when I saw it, so it's not be etched in.
  908. # [18:26] <ryan_tait> addWindowListener
  909. # [18:26] <WebDragon> MDN has a bunch to say about addEventListener, notably In Internet Explorer versions prior to IE 9, you have to use attachEvent rather than the standard addEventListener.
  910. # [18:27] <remysharp> WebDragon: it's not addEventListener
  911. # [18:27] <remysharp> if it did indeed exist...
  912. # [18:27] <WebDragon> hrm
  913. # [18:27] * WebDragon *scratches his head*
  914. # [18:28] * WebDragon passes the Dremel to remysharp in case he finds it later, so as to aid in the etching process
  915. # [18:28] <ryan_tait> i thought this was it :( http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.5.0/docs/api/java/awt/event/WindowListener.html
  916. # [18:28] <ryan_tait> but not sure if that is what you are looking for
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  919. # [18:30] <remysharp> ryan_tait: no, I was looking for JavaScript, rather than Java.
  920. # [18:30] <remysharp> but cheers.
  921. # [18:30] <remysharp> Laters folks.
  922. # [18:30] <ryan_tait> see ya
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  1008. # [20:15] <paul_irish> lol java
  1009. # [20:16] <franksalim> don't get me started
  1010. # [20:17] <ryan_tait> :D
  1011. # [20:17] * Joins: Taftse (~Taftse@unaffiliated/taftse)
  1012. # [20:17] <moo-_-> http://viper.soup.io/post/228651119/I-had-a-problem-so-I-thought
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  1015. # [20:19] <ryan_tait> Jbuilder 4 life
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  1021. # [20:25] <moo-_-> for all HTML5 game programmers out there http://mthruf.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/job-fails-the-world-can-finally-know.jpg
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  1024. # [20:31] <Jon47> I guess window.orientation is probably a non-standard property but does anybody know if an iframe is supposed to be able to have knowledge of its parent orientation?
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  1037. # [20:44] <lan3y> what's wrong with java? ;)
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  1039. # [20:46] <obert-> java??? http://eeeeek.org !!
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  1179. # [23:44] <csprite> python vs ruby :)
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  1186. # [23:48] <cheilmann> thanks for playing. Your contribution is valuable to us.
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  1197. # [23:58] <grantg> Am I the only one pissed off that Firefox has severely bad js timer timing.
  1198. # [23:58] <grantg> Things like timers in other tabs severely delay a setInterval in another
  1199. # [23:59] <grantg> Apparently the delay logic in setInterval doesn't have compensation code like in V8
  1200. # Session Close: Thu Feb 16 00:00:00 2012

The end :)