/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-02-20 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Feb 20 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:11] <tertl4> is chrome Netscape?
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# [00:13] <moo-_-> tertl4: what makes you think so?
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# [00:13] <tertl4> i did a browsertest
# [00:13] <tertl4> and got that
# [00:14] <chee> chrome is not netscape
# [00:14] <moo-_-> tertl4: what browsertest did you take?
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# [00:14] <tertl4> navigator.appName
# [00:15] <moo-_-> ok
# [00:15] <moo-_-> that's what you should have asked in the first place
# [00:15] <moo-_-> "why navigator.appName reports itself as Netscape"
# [00:15] <tertl4> my mistake
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# [00:15] <moo-_-> no prob :)
# [00:16] <moo-_-> for legacy reasons
# [00:16] <moo-_-> to be compatible with all those sites built in 90s
# [00:16] <moo-_-> navigator.appName doesn't mean anything
# [00:16] <moo-_-> if you want to detect a browser a) you shouldn't do it b) there are better methods
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# [01:46] <grantg> paul_irish: I see Safari still has the critical js engine regressions - http://i.imgur.com/cbL8g.png
# [01:47] <grantg> *months later*
# [01:48] <paul_irish> grantg: :) nice
# [01:49] <paul_irish> 5.2 just came out i hear
# [01:49] <grantg> Works in the nightly though - http://i.imgur.com/L8D1i.jpg
# [01:50] <paul_irish> the Nightly is the only proper way to run Safari
# [01:50] <grantg> paul_irish: Did they release it for snow leopard?
# [01:52] <paul_irish> grantg: its in developer preview
# [01:52] <paul_irish> so nah
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# [01:53] <grantg> :/
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# [01:54] <grantg> Safari 5.1.2 is busted though
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# [01:54] <grantg> At least the next version should be fixed
# [01:54] <grantg> As it was fixed in the nightlies a looooong time ago
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# [01:54] <grantg> But Apple didn't release a new minor version for some damn reasob
# [01:54] <grantg> *reason
# [01:55] * paul_irish shrugs
# [01:55] <paul_irish> too busy being billionaires to worry about shipping a browser
# [01:55] <grantg> It's just that people bitch to me when "it just doesn't work"
# [01:55] <grantg> Also, I can't wait for chrome 18 to go stable
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# [01:56] <grantg> Because then all the people on stable will have faster scaling
# [01:56] <grantg> keep getting messages about stuff being slow in fullscreen w/ canvas
# [01:56] <grantg> Thankfully chrome has a fast turnover
# [02:00] <grantg> So what's with dart in chrome now?
# [02:00] <grantg> Some experimental version up?
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# [02:32] <daleharvey> ugh, anyone know how to properly disaply svg's as icons
# [02:32] <daleharvey> *display
# [02:32] <daleharvey> the problem is they arent saved with a fixed image contstraint
# [02:35] <StoneCypher> ... set their size?
# [02:35] <shepazu> daleharvey: in what context?
# [02:35] <StoneCypher> just give them a width (or a height or whatever) and they'll scale to fit
# [02:36] <daleharvey> css background images
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# [02:36] <daleharvey> one sec, will give a demo
# [02:37] <StoneCypher> like bootstrap?
# [02:37] <StoneCypher> i don't actually follow what the question is, to be hoenst
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# [02:44] <daleharvey> ugh, I figured out a way, it just means an extra html element which is kinda annoying
# [02:44] <daleharvey> http://pastebin.me/860951437e1593cc4b76593bee01c361
# [02:44] <daleharvey> sorry http://pastebin.me/860951437e1593cc4b76593bee01dd55 is the demo
# [02:45] <shepazu> I guess my job here is done :)
# [02:46] <daleharvey> but I usually use background-size so I can have a fixed size icon inside a container, but if you specify a background size it will scale to the original images constraints, which will squash it
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# [02:47] <daleharvey> it needs background-size: contain; which will have it take up all the available space, so if you need a margin ... extra element
# [02:47] <daleharvey> theres other problems if the svg has whitespace, but that cant be fixed I am guessing
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# [06:52] <tertl4> hello
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# [09:17] <jetienne> hi
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# [12:46] <jetienne> q. about url path normalisation, http://example.com/index.html === http://example.com/index.html ?
# [12:47] <Taneb> What client-side scripting languages are common (other than ECMAScript+variants)?
# [12:47] <jetienne> hehe cutpast error
# [12:47] <Octayn> Taneb: None
# [12:47] <jetienne> http://example.com/index.html === http://example.com/index.html ?
# [12:47] <Octayn> Taneb: unless you mean things like plugins
# [12:47] <Taneb> Octayn: I wonder why...
# [12:47] <jetienne> ok apparently my irc client cant past this url
# [12:48] <Octayn> Taneb: Do you *really* wonder why?
# [12:48] <jetienne> q. about url path normalisation, http://example.com/index.html === http://example.com/index.html ?
# [12:48] <Octayn> Imagine if every browser had a different scripting language
# [12:48] <Octayn> And a different DOM api
# [12:48] <Taneb> No. I'm mildly curious as to why.
# [12:48] <jetienne> pfff ok sorry for the flood i give :)
# [12:48] <Octayn> So, let's say it's 1996 again ;)
# [12:48] <xec> VBscript ftl!
# [12:48] <Taneb> Hmm, yeah
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# [12:49] <Octayn> It'd be a *pain* to develop for
# [12:49] <Octayn> Although I'm not sure what google is doing with Dart. They know it's high-risk. Interesting to see how it plays out
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# [13:34] <becom33> how can I get two interfaces for a tab and a computer in the same web page
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# [13:35] <moo-_-> becom33: your question does not make sense. could you please clarify it?
# [13:36] <moo-_-> http://opensourcehacker.com/2011/03/17/rfc-simple-internet-question-asking-protocol-for-human-beings/
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# [13:37] <becom33> O_O lol sorry even I dont undertand what I said lol
# [13:38] <becom33> I need to make a site which give a web interface in a web browser and mobile interface in a android tablet
# [13:38] <moo-_-> becom33: what you are looking is called a "responsive design"
# [13:38] <moo-_-> here:
# [13:38] <moo-_-> http://opensourcehacker.com/2012/01/09/mobilizing-websites-with-responsive-design-and-html5-tutorial/
# [13:39] <Octayn> Also see media queries
# [13:39] <becom33> thanks moo-_-
# [13:39] <Octayn> (I don't know if that source references them, I'd assume it does)
# [13:39] <moo-_-> indeed it does :)
# [13:39] <Octayn> Mmm. Pretty hard to do anything without them
# [13:40] <moo-_-> Octayn: there is javascript emulation layer for media queries
# [13:40] <becom33> Octayn: whats media queries
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# [13:41] <Octayn> becom33: Let's you apply styles when, for example, the screen is smaller than 500px
# [13:41] <spotUP_> yo!
# [13:41] <spotUP_> has anyone managed to make a progressbar show when loading an html5 video to show how much it has buffered?
# [13:41] <Octayn> http://octayn.net/ is a pretty minimal example, scale your browser down
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# [13:52] <moo-_-> becom33: if you can decide about the visuals this is also a good starting point:
# [13:52] <moo-_-> twitter.github.com/bootstrap/
# [13:54] <Octayn> Never quite understood what bootstrap offered
# [13:54] <StoneCypher> quick and easy access to moderately good visual choices
# [13:54] <moo-_-> Octayn: grid layout, styled forms, few widgets
# [13:55] <moo-_-> yes, and powerful LESS based color framework
# [13:55] <StoneCypher> it's a terrible choice
# [13:55] <StoneCypher> but that's why people go after it
# [13:55] <moo-_-> StoneCypher: I have seen worse ::)
# [13:55] <StoneCypher> moo-_-: calling LESS a color framework is like calling a car a stereo
# [13:55] <StoneCypher> moo-_-: having seen worse isn't a good reason to recommend bad
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# [13:56] * StoneCypher also notes that you don't need media queries to do what bootstrap does with them
# [13:56] <StoneCypher> just snoop the browser's window size changes
# [13:56] <StoneCypher> problem solved
# [13:56] <StoneCypher> html5 is what people use when they don't want to learn how it was already being done 10 years ago
# [13:57] <StoneCypher> "responsive" design is a red flag that whoever's talking learned to program on reddit and has no idea that they don't need to cut off 30% of your userbase to get rudimentary functionality
# [13:57] <StoneCypher> the same people who go running to github to get libraries to handle what should be one line of code
# [13:57] <StoneCypher> and invariably call it a "shim"
# [13:59] <StoneCypher> becom33: the short answer is "check the size of the browser window and build accordingly."
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# [14:36] <mokush> anybody familiar with sencha touch layouts and lists, and can provide a bit of assitance?
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# [16:10] <mantas322> "application cache manifest had an incorrect mime type text/plain"
# [16:10] <mantas322> what the hell?
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# [16:15] <mantas322> chenged my manifest file to manifest.manifest
# [16:16] <mantas322> testing on evcerthing else everything works peachy
# [16:16] <mantas322> but not on ipad
# [16:16] <mantas322> I get this
# [16:16] <mantas322> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7554054/application-cache-strange-behaviour-on-ipad
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# [16:16] <mantas322> erm
# [16:16] <mantas322> this " application cache manifest had an incorrect mime type application/x-ms-manifest "
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# [16:37] <chee> mantas322: that link you posted seems to have an answer to your question !
# [16:38] <mantas322> I know :/
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# [16:44] <chee> mantas322: hahaha
# [16:44] <Trisox> :D
# [16:45] <Trisox> just add it to htaccess
# [16:45] <chee> how on earth does someone answer their own question by accident <3
# [16:45] <Trisox> so it doesnt serve it wrong
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# [17:16] <mantas322> whats the quota limit for local storage
# [17:16] <mantas322> by rows? by size?
# [17:16] <mantas322> Uncaught ReferenceError: QUOTA_EXCEEDED_ERR is not defined
# [17:17] <shwetank> its by origin, generally 5mb for most browsers
# [17:17] <mantas322> >:\
# [17:17] <mantas322> well thats kinda gay
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# [17:17] <shwetank> lol
# [17:18] <mantas322> and yet I can cache manifest +50 mbs
# [17:18] <mantas322> but local storage caps off at 5
# [17:19] <shwetank> the browser asks the user to allow for more storage space once its finished
# [17:19] <mantas322> right
# [17:19] <mantas322> but not for local storage
# [17:19] <shwetank> which browser are you testing it on?
# [17:19] <mantas322> chrome
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# [17:20] <mantas322> + mobile gtablet, ipad mobile safari
# [17:20] <mantas322> mianly chrome
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# [17:20] <mantas322> I'm trying to save a rather large xml to local storage
# [17:20] <mantas322> and then allow the user to navigate it offline
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# [17:21] <shwetank> try it in chunks .... it you do it all at once, then maybe it'll reject it outright ... but if you do it in chuncks, then it will store some, and then ask for more space once its used up the available space
# [17:21] <mantas322> my dev tools LAGGS super hard when theres alot of stuff in local storage
# [17:24] <mantas322> thanks for the advice
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# [17:25] <mantas322> woah
# [17:26] <mantas322> that was a great idea
# [17:26] <mantas322> seems to have worked
# [17:26] <mantas322> well well well...
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# [17:26] <mantas322> this gives me an idea
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# [17:27] <chee> shwetank: what have you done!
# [17:27] <chee> people are getting ideas
# [17:28] <shwetank> hopefully good ones
# [17:30] <mantas322> 11506 rows
# [17:30] <mantas322> before crashed
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# [17:30] <mantas322> that should be enough rows for me
# [17:30] <mantas322> but now the question is, is it the rows, or is it the size of the rows
# [17:31] <csmrfx> mantas322: let me guess, it's not the localStorage, but all the stuff you have in memory from there
# [17:31] <csmrfx> if your dom has something with 11506 items, it's going to be slow
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# [17:33] <mantas322> I posted a blog entry this weekend about what im doing here
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# [17:33] <mantas322> mantascode.com/?p=594
# [17:34] <mantas322> ^ basically im parsing an xml, then writing it to localstorage
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# [17:34] <mantas322> but instead of a 12 book xml i have in my example there, I have alot more elements
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# [17:35] <shwetank> i did something similar with WebSQL, back when it wasnt deprecated (or just had been recently or something)
# [17:36] <mantas322> its a little slow, but it works :D
# [17:36] <mantas322> the grit here is that its all offline
# [17:36] <mantas322> lets see how much the ipad will explode now
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# [17:37] <shwetank> try to make it work on more than webkit though
# [17:37] <mantas322> what do you mean?
# [17:37] <mantas322> you need an html5 capable browser in order to do this
# [17:38] <shwetank> try to see how it performs on other non-webkit based browsers, like opera or firefox
# [17:38] <shwetank> even IE has support for localStorage, so try to see how it performs there too
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# [17:38] <mantas322> ff and IE dont
# [17:38] <mantas322> this is for mobile devices
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# [17:39] <shwetank> Opera Mobile does though (im surprised ff mobile doesnt,, i'll have to check up on that I guess)
# [17:39] <mantas322> oh I thought u ment regular FF
# [17:39] <shwetank> regular ff has support for localStorage
# [17:39] <mantas322> most mobile browsers should have no issue with local storage functionality
# [17:39] <mantas322> maybe the newer version
# [17:40] <mantas322> im still on 3.6.3 here :/
# [17:40] <shwetank> which version do you have?
# [17:40] <shwetank> oh
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# [17:43] <PainBank> anyone tried the Sothink SWF Decompiler tool for converting a .swf to html5 web app?
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# [17:45] <wg0d> heya`
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# [17:50] <mantas322> 11,506 rows
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# [17:52] <chee> 3.6.3
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# [17:53] <chee> a relic of a more innocent age
# [17:53] <chee> 2 years, my lord
# [17:53] <mantas322> lol
# [17:53] <mantas322> season 2 of game of thrones doesnt come out for another month and a half
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# [17:54] <mantas322> Ha
# [17:54] <mantas322> it is the size
# [17:54] <mantas322> theres nothing magical about 11,506
# [17:54] <mantas322> all about the size
# [17:56] <chee> you tell that to the 8th magnitude g-type sequence star in the constellation of etus
# [17:57] <chee> *Cetus
# [17:57] <chee> i accidentally escape sequenced
# [17:57] <chee> mantas322: i am interested inyour localStorage experiments
# [17:57] <mantas322> :>
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# [18:06] <jarek> Hi
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# [18:08] <jarek> is there any difference in performance when element is positioned using 'position: absolute; top: 100px; left: 100px' vs 'transform: translate(100px, 100px)'
# [18:08] <jarek> transforms are said to be hardware-accelerated, but does it really matter when there would be no reflows anyway?
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# [19:19] <mantas322> test
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# [19:20] <Armen_> test
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# [19:44] <mantas322> hmmm
# [19:44] <mantas322> look like theres no way aroudn this 5 mb limit
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# [19:44] <mantas322> seems like some other people have tried to save partial content on another domain
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# [19:46] <David_Bradbury> I don't know if anyone has any clue what you're talking about
# [19:48] <mantas322> talking about html5 local storage limitations and workarounds
# [19:48] <mantas322> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2747285/html5-localstorage-restrictions-and-limits
# [19:48] <mantas322> I was referring to "Can these limits be circumvented by subdomains (e.g. example.com, hack1.example.com and hack2.example.com all have their own 5 MB databases)?"
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# [19:49] <philihp> i might be old-hat, but i still have trouble finding a situation where i'd want to use local storage
# [19:49] <mantas322> dump content into users browser
# [19:50] <mantas322> allow him to navigate it using offline JS
# [19:50] <mantas322> just shoot a comet App into his browser and then he wont have to constantly communicate without webserver or database
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# [19:50] <philihp> i guess, offline, sure.
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# [19:50] <David_Bradbury> I don't think I've been deliberately off-line in years
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# [19:52] <philihp> i can't wait to see someone come out with some game-changer app that uses local storage. i'm just not clever enough to come up with it myself, so i classify it under "useless things".
# [19:53] <mantas322> I posted this earlier here, but I wrote up a simple example and put it up on the web if your interested
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# [19:53] <mantas322> mantascode.com/?p=594
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# [20:13] <mantas322> its less this I thought~!
# [20:13] <mantas322> its only 2.548 kb on chrome pc
# [20:13] <Armen_> i thought it was supposed to be 10mb everywhere
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# [20:16] <StoneCypher> Armen_: it's a user setting
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# [20:16] <StoneCypher> David_Bradbury: airports
# [20:16] <Armen_> ah, i see
# [20:16] <mantas322> dont confuse overlapping terminology
# [20:17] <mantas322> in ipad apple speak local Storage space != html5 localStorage
# [20:17] <Armen_> i think it is mostly the near-identical naming that might confuse people
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# [20:18] <StoneCypher> mantas322: what's the ipad phrase mean?
# [20:18] <mantas322> its referring to general cache of the webbrowser
# [20:18] <mantas322> which can be increased by the user
# [20:19] <mantas322> it will say "would you like to incearse local storage to 25 mb?"
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# [20:24] <David_Bradbury> StoneCypher: Fair enough, wasn't saying I don't find a use for it. I personally just don't go offline very often.
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# [20:25] <mantas322> yeah, cause of all these limitations!
# [20:25] <mantas322> otherwise you would...
# [20:25] <mantas322> you'd be offline all day!
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# [21:24] <mantas322_> test
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# [21:28] <Armen_> testing what, exactly...
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# [21:32] <mantas322_> I got kicked
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# [21:32] <mantas322_> i use a IRC webclient in browser
# [21:32] <mantas322_> and sometimes for some reason i lose conection
# [21:32] <mantas322_> so sometimes I type test to see if i'm still connected to irc'
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# [21:49] <Armen_> use irssi, like normal people :P
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# [21:54] <wg0d> anybody homeeee ?
# [21:55] <David_Bradbury> Armen_: Oh, irssi looks nice, I've been using Chatzilla for awhile now, and while it is better than mIRC, it isn't great
# [21:55] <ralphholzmann> whats up wg0d
# [21:55] <wg0d> I have a thing that bothers me very bad
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# [21:56] <ralphholzmann> wg0d: tell us your thing.
# [21:56] <wg0d> and I want to bother u as well >:)
# [21:56] <ralphholzmann> bothern't
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# [21:56] <wg0d> so I'm trying to implement schema.org microdata into my html5 pages
# [21:57] <wg0d> and for some reason the w3c html5 validator does not validate microdata for url tags
# [21:57] <wg0d> like <a> and <img>
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# [21:57] <wg0d> but it validates the rest of microdata
# [21:57] <wg0d> and I don`t understand why :(
# [21:59] <wg0d> I got this error : "Attribute itemprop not allowed on element img at this point."
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# [22:02] <wg0d> and this makes me sad
# [22:03] <ralphholzmann> no idea wg0d
# [22:03] <ralphholzmann> does it work?
# [22:03] <wg0d> yea
# [22:03] <ralphholzmann> if it works, then, I wouldn't worry about validation
# [22:03] <wg0d> but I like it to be green
# [22:03] <wg0d> :))
# [22:04] <ralphholzmann> sounds like pavlovian conditioning
# [22:04] <David_Bradbury> If it isn't validating then the validator is wrong
# [22:04] <David_Bradbury> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/microdata.html
# [22:05] <Ms2ger> If you're looking at TR/, you're wrong
# [22:05] <paul_irish> :)
# [22:05] <shepazu> paul_irish: may I ask a stupid question about responsive images?
# [22:05] <wg0d> I did it like this : <img itemprop="image" src="google-logo.png" alt="Google">
# [22:05] <paul_irish> shepazu: yup
# [22:05] <David_Bradbury> Ah crap
# [22:05] <David_Bradbury> I do that occasionally
# [22:05] <wg0d> and it says itemprop on img is not ok ...
# [22:06] <shepazu> paul_irish: reading this … http://www.alistapart.com/articles/responsive-images-how-they-almost-worked-and-what-we-need/
# [22:07] <shepazu> why doesn't the browser simply send its dimensions in the HTTP request header?
# [22:07] <wg0d> I feel like there is no reason to live if w3c does not fully validate my content :((
# [22:07] <Wilto> Speak of the devil and the devil appears; hi.
# [22:07] <shepazu> wg0d: you should get over that feeling
# [22:07] <shepazu> hey, Wilto
# [22:07] <wg0d> I can't ... no alcohol near me :(
# [22:08] <Wilto> Hey, shepazu! Thanks for kicking that group in, by the way.
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# [22:08] <shepazu> Wilto: I didn't do much
# [22:09] <Wilto> shepazu: There’s been a lot of discussion around the headers thing—I suppose I don’t see where that reasoning wouldn’t apply just as much to <video>, y’know?
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# [22:09] <shepazu> Wilto: yes, why wouldn't it?
# [22:09] <Wilto> It’s an issue of appropriately serving content, and while it would be awesome to have device detail headers available, it would put the onus on developers to implement their own versions of that element.
# [22:10] <Wilto> I don’t see the benefit, honestly.
# [22:10] <Wilto> This way there’s a solid implementation with a reliable fallback regardless of devs, browsers, and servers.
# [22:11] <David_Bradbury> Interesting. Apparently if you hit the "flag as inappropriate" button on YouTube, it will automatically pause the video for you so you don't have to see any more 'inappropriate' content
# [22:11] <Wilto> If the devs _wanted_ to implement something on the backend to automatically resize/crop/etc., there’s no reason they couldn’t programmatically output those sources to the page.
# [22:11] <shepazu> David_Bradbury: an "ARGH! My eyes!" feature?
# [22:11] <Wilto> That’s my take, anyay.
# [22:11] <Wilto> s/anyay/anyway.
# [22:11] <paul_irish> I guess the other argument there is that media queries etc all exist to keep the logic on the frontend. like how the mimetype restriction was lifted from appcache manifests
# [22:11] <shepazu> Wilto: I don't see it as "either/or"… why not both?
# [22:12] <David_Bradbury> Hah, exactly. Of course, you can resume the video just fine if it was an accidental click (my case)
# [22:13] <shepazu> paul_irish, Wilto, are you aware of how SVG <image> works?
# [22:13] <paul_irish> reporting some device details over the req header would be welcome by most developers, i'm sure. but it basically means an HTML page cannot send adaptive assets without some fairly sophisticated backend logic
# [22:14] * paul_irish isnt
# [22:14] <Wilto> Oh, like I said: I’d love to have detailed gadget-describing headers available. I’m just really uneasy about the occasional “whatever, headers will solve this someday” comments that pop up here and there, since there’s a big gap between “having screen size available” and an implementation.
# [22:14] <Wilto> Exactly. What paul_irish said.
# [22:14] <shepazu> I think instead of @alt, there should be a <title> child element, for 1i8n reasons
# [22:14] <shepazu> er...
# [22:14] <shepazu> i18n
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# [22:15] <shepazu> otherwise, Wilto, I think your solution seems pretty sensible
# [22:15] <Wilto> The idea of a more robust alt tag was thrown around a bit on the WHATWG list—I totally want something better than alt, no question.
# [22:15] <Wilto> That’s kind of my bare minimum. At _least_ an alt tag on the element.
# [22:16] <shepazu> the only other thing I would add to the strategy, if it's not done already, is a polyfill for non-supporting browsers
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# [22:17] <Wilto> I’m not sure there’s a means of polyfilling that won’t involve multiple requests, but only in cases where the larger image is being served anyway—where we can (I hate this word) assume higher bandwidth.
# [22:18] <paul_irish> naturally!
# [22:18] <shepazu> and we also need to think about responsive images in CSS backgrounds, which would require a different technique
# [22:18] <Wilto> That’s part of the reason I’m champing at the bit to get an example implementation put together in a branch of one of the browsers. Take a crack at polyfilling this thing fo’ real.
# [22:19] <Wilto> Oh, for sure.
# [22:19] <shepazu> s/real/realz/
# [22:20] <shepazu> Wilto, paul_irish, can I make a suggestion?
# [22:20] <Jon47> personally i _feel_ like viewport dimension is purely a layout thing and should be quarantined to the front-end. However… even though it's neat to resize the browser and dynamically view the "responsiveness" of the page, isn't it just something that developers do when they are testing their pages? how often does a real user do that.. i feel like it's not a scenario we should be developing towards...
# [22:20] <Wilto> Absolutely, man.
# [22:21] <Wilto> Community effort, this. Any and all feedback welcome.
# [22:21] <shepazu> I think a nice solid concrete starting point would be to write down some scenarios and derive requirements, just so we're all on the same page
# [22:22] <Wilto> Makes sense, man.
# [22:22] <shepazu> and list some of the considerations, like headers vs. front-end code, with tradeoffs
# [22:22] <shepazu> it's tedious, but it will save arguments later
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# [22:23] <Wilto> For sure. That’s why I’ve been so noisy about people reading the history on the topic, but a front-facing summary of the arguments that I know are gonna arise is a good idea.
# [22:23] <shepazu> Wilto, paul_irish, and after we finish responsive images, let's form a CG on styling form widgets
# [22:24] <Wilto> HELL YES.
# [22:24] <shepazu> lots of good work there already, and for new widgets like calendar, we're going to need it
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# [22:25] <Wilto> Oh, I am in. No question.
# [22:26] <shepazu> (btw, sending dimension headers isn't always dependable, since users can resize/zoom their browser… needs to be dynamic)
# [22:26] <shepazu> so, the markup solution is needed anyway
# [22:27] <shepazu> headers would only help the initial load, in place of cookies, etc.
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# [22:32] <Wilto> Oh, that too—good call.
# [22:33] <shepazu> actually, now that I think about it… it's probably only for prefetching, and that could probably be solved by the markup solution just as well
# [22:35] <shepazu> Wilto, paul_irish, so what would the outcome of the Responsive Images CG be? a proposal to the HTML WG, a separate spec, or what?
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# [22:35] <Wilto> A proposal to the HTML WG, methinks.
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# [22:38] <shepazu> Wilto: another thing to think about… would there be an API for this element?
# [22:39] <Wilto> I mean… I defer on that, really. I’m no expert on the standards process—whichever option has the best chance of making this thing happen.
# [22:39] <Wilto> I’m just good at making lots of noise, really.
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# [22:39] <shepazu> don't think about the standards part, think about what you would want
# [22:40] <shepazu> is there anything that would need an API?
# [22:40] <shepazu> getting or setting different info?
# [22:40] <Wilto> I’d like to see this thing in the spec alongside <video>.
# [22:41] <Wilto> Hm, that’s tough. Any scripting wouldn’t kick in until after the initial sources fetching takes place, I wouldn’t think…
# [22:41] <Wilto> “Source.” Singular.
# [22:41] <shepazu> sure, but are there scenarios out there that <img> isn't solving?
# [22:41] <shepazu> I dunno, slideshows or the like?
# [22:42] <shepazu> timeouts...
# [22:42] <Wilto> Oh, oh. Outside of the multiple source thing.
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# [22:42] <shepazu> so, if you invented <img> from scratch, today, what would it look like?
# [22:43] <Wilto> Honestly? In an alternate dimension where <picture> already exists and I get to invent <img>, I would say “just do the one thing, and do it well: get a single source as quickly as possible, and display it.”
# [22:43] <Wilto> I can’t think of anything special I’d want <img> to do right out of the box.
# [22:44] <shepazu> no, I mean, if neither <img> nor <picture> existed
# [22:44] <shepazu> but nm, it's just a thought
# [22:44] <Wilto> Slideshows and such, I feel, should probably be left to the implementor. Making assumptions about functionality in that area is just gonna lead to people working around ’em, I figure.
# [22:44] <Wilto> Knee-jerk reaction, though. Definitely something I’ll think about.
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# [22:46] <shepazu> not meaning to introduce feature creep… solving one problem is probably enough, if that's the main problem
# [22:46] <Wilto> No, no—that’s awesome conversation for the Community Group. Maybe it ends up just being the one problem, or maybe someone has some crazy awesome API in mind.
# [22:46] <Wilto> When, uh, the Community Group site un-crashes, that is.
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# [22:49] <Wilto> And I definitely want to emphasize the fact that hinging on media queries will make this element crazy flexible—possibly moreso in the future, as new MQ get rolled out.
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# [22:56] <tertl4> is html5 considered a pattern?
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# [22:57] <Jon47> everything's some kind of pattern..
# [22:59] <StoneCypher> no
# [22:59] <StoneCypher> design patterns are what people on irc talk about to make themselves feel smart
# [22:59] <StoneCypher> nearly none of whom have actually read the book
# [22:59] <StoneCypher> so
# [22:59] <StoneCypher> they each give a progressively broader claim about what that phrase means, none of them knowing other than from the last wrong guy they heard
# [22:59] <StoneCypher> until it means everything
# [23:00] <StoneCypher> tertl4: of course not. read the book.
# [23:00] <StoneCypher> virtually none of the design patterns even make sense in html
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# [23:13] <tertl4> what book?
# [23:13] <tertl4> are you being sarcastic?
# [23:14] <shepazu> tertl4: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns
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# [23:16] <shepazu> but "design patterns" doesn't necessarily refer to the book "Design Patterns"
# [23:16] <shepazu> or the patterns described in it
# [23:17] <shepazu> the book is for object-oriented software design, not all design patterns
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# [23:18] <StoneCypher> shepazu: sure it doesn't.
# [23:19] <shepazu> IIRC, Yahoo published some pretty good Web programming design patterns
# [23:20] <StoneCypher> you seem to have failed to understand the bit about bad programmers misusing phrases because they don't know any better.
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# [23:20] <StoneCypher> also the authors of that book are quite angry that it says object oriented design on teh cover
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# [23:20] <StoneCypher> there's nothing particularly object oriented about the book other than that that's the context in which the examples were presented
# [23:20] <StoneCypher> every single one of those patterns makes sense in machine assembly
# [23:21] <StoneCypher> fowler goes off on a rant about that once a year or so
# [23:22] <shepazu> ok, StoneCypher, I guess I'm wrong on the internet, you're right
# [23:22] <shepazu> yay, problem solved!
# [23:22] <StoneCypher> how nice.
# [23:22] <StoneCypher> fake admissions to get around the real thing.
# [23:23] <Jon47> i'm not sure how calling out these "bad programmers on irc" in this forum is helpful at all, particularly with regards to tertls question..
# [23:23] <StoneCypher> 'course not
# [23:23] <smplstk> but flaming feels good man
# [23:25] <StoneCypher> the germane part that answered his question is just the part that got cut away as inconvenient
# [23:25] <StoneCypher> [16:53] <StoneCypher> tertl4: of course not. read the book. [16:53] <StoneCypher> virtually none of the design patterns even make sense in html
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# [23:28] <shepazu> StoneCypher: how about this for a solution? I will continue to think you are wrong and that it's sensible to talk about design patterns outside the context and framework laid out by the Design Patterns book, especially as regards web development, but I will also realize that you seem to have some axe to grind on that particular subject so it's not worth my time to "discuss" it with you? (which said, I don't know what tertl4 me
# [23:28] <shepazu> by " html5 considered a pattern"
# [23:29] <shepazu> tertl4: what do you mean, is html5 considered a pattern?
# [23:29] <smplstk> Had tertl4's question been "is html5 considered a _design_ pattern?" The answer would have been: no.
# [23:29] <tertl4> yes I left off the design part
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# [23:30] <shepazu> you are unforgiven, tertl4!
# [23:30] <tertl4> but a design pattern is still a pattern
# [23:30] <shepazu> (but I still dont' know what your question meant :) )
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# [23:30] <crivera> how do i add a css rule for all ie?
# [23:31] <paul_irish> ?g paul irish neither @ crivera
# [23:32] <bot-t> crivera, Conditional stylesheets vs CSS hacks? Answer: Neither! « Paul Irish - http://paulirish.com/2008/conditional-stylesheets-vs-css-hacks-answer-neither/
# [23:32] <paul_irish> crivera: keep in mind IE9 and IE10 probably behave differently and therefore you probably wont want to treat them same as 6-8
# [23:33] <crivera> nice, thanks!
# [23:34] <crivera> this is pretty neat
# [23:36] <smplstk> tertl4: HTML5 is _not_ a "design pattern". Typically a pattern, like Active Record or Front Controller, has to do with an actual software/programming language.
# [23:36] <smplstk> tertl4: HTML5 is just markup, that's it.
# [23:37] <StoneCypher> good thing that got said again
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# [23:37] <tertl4> ok, I am beginning to learn some javascript and html and I am just considering if I should learn a pattern
# [23:37] <StoneCypher> please stop saying pattern
# [23:38] <StoneCypher> i mean you could throw smurf in there and it'd be equally correct
# [23:38] <tertl4> HA
# [23:38] <StoneCypher> not joking
# [23:38] <nFFF> What does pattern mean? :<
# [23:38] <StoneCypher> in the context of software, nothing.
# [23:38] <smplstk> nFFF, tertl4: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_design_pattern
# [23:38] <StoneCypher> design patterns are observations structured in a specific format led by a book from 1993
# [23:38] <StoneCypher> redditors think everythign is a pattern
# [23:39] <StoneCypher> the purpose of a design pattern is to point out a common structure so that when you do it, you notice some of the ramifications
# [23:39] <StoneCypher> unfortunately cargo cultists now design software by starting with patterns
# [23:39] <StoneCypher> which is ridiculous
# [23:39] <StoneCypher> "i think i'll do this as a series of singletons chain-of-commanded to an actor flyweight" <-- translation: "i will fail"
# [23:40] <StoneCypher> it's basically the same toys-instead-of-design thing that gets people cult-y about UML and so on
# [23:40] <StoneCypher> what drives annotations in java
# [23:40] <StoneCypher> etc etc
# [23:40] <StoneCypher> design patterns are one of those sad tools that are small, useful, and completely abused by novices with near-terminal golden hammer syndrome
# [23:41] * Parts: crivera (~carlos@rrcs-24-173-74-98.sw.biz.rr.com)
# [23:41] <astearns> patterns didn't start with software in 1993. That book took ideas from architecture, starting from 1977
# [23:41] <StoneCypher> the worst case of which being the various model view controller circlejerks
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# [23:41] <StoneCypher> astearns: that phrase comes from the book
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# [23:41] <StoneCypher> astearns: design patterns != patterns
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# [23:41] <StoneCypher> astearns: i'm curious where you get the 1977 number; that's oddly specific
# [23:42] <astearns> if you take the idea of a pattern language being proven ideas you can apply to *any* discipline, you could have design patterns for web design
# [23:42] <StoneCypher> oh, you're a PLOPD person
# [23:42] <StoneCypher> we see this incompatibly. nevermind.
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# [23:44] <astearns> on 1977: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Pattern_Language
# [23:44] <StoneCypher> oh for god's sake
# [23:44] <StoneCypher> you're saying software design patterns start with the architecture book?
# [23:44] <StoneCypher> you read way too much into that foreward.
# [23:45] <astearns> haven't read either, actually :)
# [23:45] <tertl4> i see we are getting linguistic
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# [23:45] <StoneCypher> astearns: obviously.
# [23:45] <StoneCypher> astearns: doesn't it embarrass you to argue about the meaning of books you haven't read?
# [23:45] <StoneCypher> i mean taht's a very republican approach to religion, but this is software
# [23:45] <StoneCypher> that should be something you're humiliated to admit
# [23:46] <astearns> you've read the book I linked, then?
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# [23:47] <shepazu> wow, and here I thought this was intended as a friendly channel for people to ask questions about Web development… thank goodness I have been disabused of that notion
# [23:48] <StoneCypher> if you meant the architecture book, then yes. i declined to open the link
# [23:48] <StoneCypher> because it's such a vapid and disappointing thing to say
# [23:48] * marienz eyes the channel topic
# [23:48] <shepazu> marienz: pay no attention to the channel topic!
# [23:48] <marienz> perhaps the side conversation on the definition and origin of the word "pattern" should move elsewhere?
# [23:50] <shepazu> marienz: by topic, I assume you are talking about topic maps, and the semantic web has no place on this channel, please desist
# [23:51] <shepazu> marienz: http://www.mommyneedscoffee.com/archives/104
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# [23:55] <chee> bleep bloop what is going on in here
# [23:56] <chee> horrifying
# [23:57] <chee> tertl4: what did you do
# [23:57] <tertl4> idk
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# [23:58] <chee> it went on for an hour!
# [23:58] <StoneCypher> and in some ways still is.
# [23:59] <chee> well i'll keep the logs of this night safe just in case i ever want to read some very strong opinions on things that really don't matter and youtube is down
# Session Close: Tue Feb 21 00:00:01 2012

The end :)