/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-02-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 22 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  17. # [00:21] <David_Bradbury> xarxer: If you are worried about that, you may want to consider using Google's Webfont Loader - https://developers.google.com/webfonts/docs/webfont_loader
  18. # [00:21] <David_Bradbury> It basically gives you a way to declare a fallback if loading the font fails
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  30. # [00:30] <David_Bradbury> Hmm, I think having different scaling algorithms to choose from, in particular for the Cavnas element, would be very useful
  31. # [00:32] <David_Bradbury> image-rendering: hq2x; would be ♥
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  43. # [00:43] <avb_wkyhu> What's general Drag-n-Drop for files looking like for IE?
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  50. # [00:52] <kkuno> hi
  51. # [00:52] <kkuno> I need some hints on ajax+pushstate
  52. # [00:53] <kkuno> I want to use cleaner urls, instead of the classic /#page for changing page with ajax
  53. # [00:53] <kkuno> like /page/par1/par2
  54. # [00:54] <kkuno> I tried to use url rewriting, so /page ---> /#page
  55. # [00:54] <kkuno> but the browser is forced to refresh the page every time
  56. # [00:54] <kkuno> how can I avoid this?
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  65. # [01:06] <Pomax> you could just make your javascript look at window.location instead of rewriting it.
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  69. # [01:14] <kkuno> mmh
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  71. # [01:15] <dsyme> anyone love markdown?
  72. # [01:16] <Octayn> It's nice
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  74. # [01:18] <dsyme> Anyone know a place to go to ask for design thoughts but not so much to do with markup?
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  76. # [01:18] <dsyme> like an irc channel, other then css/html/html5 etc
  77. # [01:18] <Octayn> #web
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  80. # [01:19] <dsyme> octayn: thanks man
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  97. # [01:43] <ProLoser|Work> do i not need to do text/javascript and text/css anymore in html5?
  98. # [01:44] <dilvie> ProLoser|Work: You don't ned text/javascript for javascript
  99. # [01:45] <dilvie> apparently, you don't need text/css, either
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  107. # [01:54] <dashBoard> hi! i have a question...
  108. # [01:55] <dashBoard> how can one use an list with an image to "trigger" a <a href> ?
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  110. # [02:00] <ProLoser|Work> do you need rel='stylesheet'?
  111. # [02:00] <ProLoser|Work> dashBoard: be less confusing
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  113. # [02:03] <ProLoser|Work> dashBoard: please don't pm people without permission, keep it in the channel, you'll get more eyes and more help that way
  114. # [02:04] <dashBoard> ok, sorry..
  115. # [02:05] <dashBoard> well, i have a list, in the list i have some links… the list have images that are used as element to navigate with. but i cant get the href's to link
  116. # [02:06] <dashBoard> un less i use the hres outside the list like this <a href=""><li></li></a>
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  118. # [02:06] <dashBoard> but if i do that… i cant validate the code
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  145. # [03:05] <someprimetime> how can i get the binary data from fileList?
  146. # [03:06] <Octayn> You don't, you get it from a File in a FileList
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  150. # [03:06] <someprimetime> Octayn: we meet again
  151. # [03:07] <Octayn> So we do
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  153. # [03:07] <Octayn> someprimetime: http://www.w3.org/TR/FileAPI/#FileReader-interface
  154. # [03:07] <someprimetime> so file.getAsBinary()?
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  157. # [03:08] <Octayn> Not quite.
  158. # [03:09] <Octayn> var reader = new FileReader(); FileReader.readAsBinaryString(file); more like it
  159. # [03:09] <Octayn> Do read the spec! It's useful, and not that terrible as far as specs come!
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  164. # [03:12] <Octayn> http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/file/dndfiles/ might give you some tips
  165. # [03:12] <someprimetime> sweet thanks man
  166. # [03:12] <someprimetime> much appreciated
  167. # [03:12] <Octayn> np
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  175. # [03:33] <ryanseddon> someprimetime: you should look into readAsArrayBuffer also, much easier to work with than binary in js
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  205. # [04:28] <someprimetime> ryanseddon: thanks
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  235. # [05:57] <testmachine123> anyone here know php
  236. # [05:57] <Octayn> testmachine123: I bet tons of people in #php do
  237. # [05:57] <testmachine123> yeah but iim blocked out
  238. # [05:57] <testmachine123> invite only
  239. # [05:57] <Octayn> See /topic #php
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  246. # [06:03] <tw2113> need to have your IRC nick registered for #php
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  277. # [07:03] <paul_irish> xarxer: if its down its down. datacenters usually have some level of redundancy built in
  278. # [07:03] <paul_irish> so you wouldn't know if it falls back
  279. # [07:04] <paul_irish> but the worst situation is the fonts looks normal
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  310. # [08:18] <AcidicChip> I'm messing with canvas for the first time... Am I right by saying that, in order to animate slide an image from 1 point to another, the canvas has to be redrawn each time? I can't simply update the image object's x/y position?
  311. # [08:20] <moo-_-> AcidicChip: <canvas> is a bitmap buffer
  312. # [08:20] <moo-_-> if you want to show something you modify its pixel content
  313. # [08:20] <moo-_-> you need to grasp how this works
  314. # [08:20] <AcidicChip> I'm trying to
  315. # [08:21] <AcidicChip> So, if I made something like a slot machine... I'd have a graphic of the face, with 3 clips, and 3 symbol graphics... I'd clear and redraw the clipped space for the symbol images at their changes offset for each frame, correct?
  316. # [08:23] <AcidicChip> If I had a car with the tires rotating, same concept, but clip an arc at the rims, and have hub cap image rotate/redraw?
  317. # [08:23] <AcidicChip> If I'm way off base let me know. Maybe if someone has helpful link handy?
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  321. # [08:27] <becom33> when I do <link rel="stylesheet" href="main.css" type="text/css" media="only screen and(min-width:801px)"> my css doesnt load :/
  322. # [08:28] <OzDave_imac> Can you even use the media tag like that?
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  324. # [08:29] <OzDave_imac> http://www.w3schools.com/css/css_mediatypes.asp
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  329. # [08:30] <becom33> OzDave_imac I was going tought this youtube video tut . and she did like that
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  331. # [08:31] <becom33> OzDave_imac here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onxJ7lFPfqk
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  334. # [08:37] <moo-_-> AcidicChip: <canvas> is low level graphics element and the developer is responsible for refreshing every pixel himself/herself
  335. # [08:38] <moo-_-> becom33: does your browser support media queries?
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  339. # [08:42] <becom33> yes but when I do like this it works http://pastebin.com/RUsEKqtH moo-_-
  340. # [08:43] <moo-_-> what is media="only screen"
  341. # [08:43] <moo-_-> is there a selector called "only"?
  342. # [08:43] <becom33> I saw it in a video on youtube :/
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  413. # [10:30] <jetienne> i look for a tool helping me to build a appcache.manifest ? anybody got a suggestion ?
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  415. # [10:30] <shwetank> yeah, just a sec
  416. # [10:31] <tw2113> i'm trying to think up good use cases for data-*
  417. # [10:31] <shwetank> try http://manifested.dregsoft.com/ or http://westciv.com/tools/manifestR/
  418. # [10:32] <jetienne> shachaf: thanks
  419. # [10:32] <jetienne> shwetank: thanks i meant :)
  420. # [10:32] <shwetank> :)
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  479. # [11:55] <odinswand> anyone know of any good pixel fonts i can embed in my html?
  480. # [11:56] <moo-_-> odinswand: did you check google web fonts?
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  483. # [11:57] <odinswand> moo-_-: i havent found any pixel fonts there or on typekit
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  517. # [13:17] <chee> ya ya
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  575. # [15:09] <kevindougans> just noticed this for anyone looking for a front end job: Cafe Mambo are currently offering a paid intern placement to start immediately. A junior graphic designer (with...
  576. # [15:09] <kevindougans> http://www.facebook.com/mamboibiza/posts/10150581823323165
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  578. # [15:12] <csmrfx> You mean the Cafe Mambo in Helsinki at Lönnrotinkatu?
  579. # [15:16] <kevindougans> naa the original one in ibiza
  580. # [15:17] <csmrfx> ooh, ok. And so you thought it was a good idea to spam a global irc channel with an ad on a members-only -site?
  581. # [15:20] <kevindougans> didn't realise it was a members only site
  582. # [15:20] <kevindougans> and didn't thinkit was spam since its relevant to html
  583. # [15:20] <kevindougans> my bad
  584. # [15:20] <kevindougans> sorry for trying to help the unemployed people of the world
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  586. # [15:21] <csmrfx> well, it's for ppl with work visa in Spain only, with a facebook account. Bleh!
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  591. # [15:23] <Jayflux> do you need h5bp if you're using Twitter bootstrap?
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  594. # [15:23] <kevindougans> csmrfx: people with a european visa and sorry about the Facebook account
  595. # [15:24] <kevindougans> as i said sorry for mentioning it
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  597. # [15:24] <csmrfx> cvs
  598. # [15:24] <kevindougans> i don't contribute much here but come in here often, not trying to spam, makes little difference to me
  599. # [15:24] <csmrfx> (oops, wrong window)
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  635. # [16:27] <tertl4> hello
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  648. # [16:34] <tertl4> http://badassjs.com/post/4064873160/webgl-2d-an-implementation-of-the-2d-canvas-context-in
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  653. # [16:37] <tertl4> what browser is the best for HTML5?
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  655. # [16:38] <Octayn> Recent chrome or firefox are good.
  656. # [16:38] <Octayn> Opera has more of the new input types I think
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  661. # [16:42] * StoneCypher still hasn't figured out how to fix polygon seams in chrome :(
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  760. # [18:57] <uf0_work> paul_irish: once a bug is fixed 'resolved/fixed' or 'patched' when is it actually pushed to Chrome Canary?
  761. # [18:57] <uf0_work> paul_irish: is there a notification when this happens?
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  764. # [19:04] <karega> are there any developers willing to do small contract work for 40 - 80 hours periodically?
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  772. # [19:27] <rektide> chrome tells me BAR is nested under FOO: <div id="FOO" /> <div id="BAR" />
  773. # [19:28] <rektide> but each element is a solo tag, self closing. i presume this is some awful heritage wherein HTML broke with XML?
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  775. # [19:30] <Octayn> Doctype?
  776. # [19:31] <Ms2ger> rektide, you're not using XML
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  778. # [19:31] <Octayn> Is div even valid self-closing?
  779. # [19:31] <Ms2ger> Octayn, doctypes are irrelevant here
  780. # [19:31] <Octayn> Ms2ger: Here being #html5 or here being this situation
  781. # [19:31] <Ms2ger> This situation
  782. # [19:32] <Ms2ger> Though I guess in #html5 too :)
  783. # [19:32] <Octayn> If (s)he were using xhtml would that be valid? (I'm really not sure)
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  785. # [19:32] <rektide> live demo: http://rektide.voodoowarez.com/2012/1/nesting.is.weird.html
  786. # [19:32] <Ms2ger> Yes, but using XML doesn't depend on the doctype
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  788. # [19:33] <rektide> Ms2ger: i kind of know that, but i don't know what it is i am using. :(
  789. # [19:33] <Ms2ger> It depends on the MIME type, which is text/html here, so not XML
  790. # [19:33] <rektide> you've given me a negative identity. i'd much rather the positive identity of XML that i know.
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  793. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> Say what?
  794. # [19:34] <rektide> but i'll take a positive identity for the thing i don't know, whatever the hay it is i'm doing
  795. # [19:34] <rektide> Ms2ger: you said "you're not using XML"
  796. # [19:34] <rektide> i kind of know that
  797. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> You're using HTML
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  799. # [19:34] <rektide> i thought HTML's parser rules were a degredation of XML for degenerate cases
  800. # [19:34] <rektide> this is valid xml
  801. # [19:35] <Octayn> No, they never were
  802. # [19:35] <rektide> i'm aware my original thought was broken
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  805. # [19:36] <rektide> so are there no self closing tags at all in HTML, no solo tags?
  806. # [19:36] <rektide> i have to type ever element name twice no matter what?
  807. # [19:36] <Octayn> You can omit the end tags.
  808. # [19:36] <rektide> except it'll nest
  809. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> Only within <svg></svg> and <math></math>
  810. # [19:36] <Octayn> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/syntax.html#optional-tags
  811. # [19:36] <rektide> once again i can only assume no person is responsible for this awful decision to abandon XHTML
  812. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> Did you know that TR/ stands for Trash?
  813. # [19:36] <Octayn> lol
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  815. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> rektide, you can use XHTML
  816. # [19:36] <rektide> and don't tell me otherwise
  817. # [19:37] <Ms2ger> Only you thought you were using XHTML previously, and that was actually a lie
  818. # [19:37] <rektide> i knew there were differences
  819. # [19:37] <rektide> that was a known
  820. # [19:37] <rektide> what those differences are
  821. # [19:37] <rektide> is still a known unknown
  822. # [19:38] <Octayn> The differences are many, since HTML is not XML.
  823. # [19:38] <rektide> what will XHTML cut me off from?
  824. # [19:38] <rektide> XHTML stopped, it died
  825. # [19:38] <Ms2ger> It didn't
  826. # [19:38] <Ms2ger> XHTML*2* died
  827. # [19:38] <Ms2ger> See http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-xhtml-syntax.html#the-xhtml-syntax for XHTML
  828. # [19:39] <rektide> all the WHAT-WG stuff that's made it into HTML5,... i thought XHTML hadn't kept moving and that i'd end up with a retarded mid 200x's browser for trying to use it
  829. # [19:41] <David_Bradbury> XHTML exists, but it really is treated as HTML with XML embedded. The technology is there in case people wish to use it, but in most cases, you should be fine just using standard HTML
  830. # [19:41] <rektide> is there any technical reason to stick with the HTML parser?
  831. # [19:41] <rektide> in particular,
  832. # [19:41] <David_Bradbury> Compared to?
  833. # [19:41] <Ms2ger> Ease of writing
  834. # [19:41] <rektide> David_Bradbury: compared to the XML / XHTML+HTML5 parser
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  836. # [19:42] <rektide> is there any cause to fret over performance?
  837. # [19:42] <rektide> will my inline SVG's still operate ok in XHTML+HTML5 ?
  838. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> David_Bradbury, eh? The HTML/XHTML syntaxes are equivalent
  839. # [19:42] <David_Bradbury> rektide: Yes
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  841. # [19:43] <David_Bradbury> Ms2ger:Yes, but with XHTML you can define your own additional tags
  842. # [19:44] <Ms2ger> Say what?
  843. # [19:44] <rektide> oh yay MDN has some kind words for my worried heart
  844. # [19:44] <rektide> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/HTML/HTML5/HTML5_Parser#Inline_SVG_and_MathML.C2.A0support
  845. # [19:44] <rektide> my last and final quesiton for the day
  846. # [19:45] <rektide> where can i buy a swanky XHTML5 shirt
  847. # [19:45] <rektide> :p
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  850. # [19:47] <David_Bradbury> Ms2ger: As far as I'm aware, you can define your own tags in XML and integrate it into XHTML
  851. # [19:47] * theresa_away is now known as theresaanna
  852. # [19:48] <David_Bradbury> rektide: http://html5shirt.com/ :p
  853. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> Defining your own tags is just as possible and just as bad practice in HTML and XHTML
  854. # [19:48] <Octayn> Custom doctypes, no?
  855. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> Don't do that
  856. # [19:50] <David_Bradbury> Well, yes, but I was advised (note that I went to school for web programming in the late 90's) that custom tags in XHTML were more acceptable
  857. # [19:50] <David_Bradbury> Of course, I haven't worked with XHTML in years, and have only touched XML to work with Lua
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  859. # [19:51] <David_Bradbury> I must say I do have a habit of still using self-closing tags as a style thing as I think it looks better
  860. # [19:51] <rektide> are doctypes necessary to start injecting random assed namespaces?
  861. # [19:51] <Octayn> Why is it bad practice to define your own tags? Wouldn't it lead to more specific semantics for things (along the lines of microformats I guess)
  862. # [19:52] <tantek> Octayn - because most people don't have the skills necessary to define their own tags and will just create a big mess. Oh wait, XML demonstrated that.
  863. # [19:52] <rektide> if i want to throw on a small data island into XHTML+HTML5, i can just ad-hoc create the sh$$ right?
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  865. # [19:53] <tantek> also why we have a microformats process to *minimize* the introduction of new microformats, new properties etc.
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  867. # [19:53] <Octayn> mmm
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  869. # [19:53] <Octayn> Makes sense
  870. # [19:53] <rektide> uhh sorry forgive me i appear to have asked a new question
  871. # [19:53] <tantek> and history has shown it to be true
  872. # [19:53] <tantek> np
  873. # [19:53] <tantek> XML is quickly being forgotten
  874. # [19:53] <tantek> so that will happen
  875. # [19:53] <Wilto> Never heard of it, myself.
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  877. # [19:54] <rektide> now i feel like JSON needs it's own data islands concept
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  880. # [19:54] <tantek> data islands are great for creating dead invisible data that will get out of sync with what is actually in the page and visible.
  881. # [19:54] <rektide> throw some <jsonp var="foo">{what:'youmad?'}</jsonp> on that business
  882. # [19:55] <rektide> well tantek build us that bound data world faster. would be happy to use the browser's model as my own, were only it good enough for that.
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  891. # [20:08] <rektide> adding <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8" /> does not appear to be enough, i have to actually serve it properly.
  892. # [20:08] <rektide> fwiw
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  899. # [20:13] <nonono> why is it that so very, very very often all the live examples of websocket eventually go down very soon? like within 2 months... does that point to a problem? much more bandwidth-intensive, security precautions, what?
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  918. # [20:35] <JonathanNeal> hi
  919. # [20:35] <rektide> oh right
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  921. # [20:35] <rektide> xhtml5 still says .innerHTML is verboten
  922. # [20:35] <rektide> fooey on ya'll
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  924. # [20:36] <rektide> :P :)
  925. # [20:36] <David_Bradbury> I don't think XHTML5 exists
  926. # [20:36] <rektide> indeed not. but HTML5+XHTML gets boring to type out again and again. and i want an XHTML5 t-shirt to convince the public there is one anyways.
  927. # [20:36] <rektide> wikipedia has enough fake information on this non existant structure XHTML5
  928. # [20:36] <JonathanNeal> XHTMJSSS says you should use <marquee>
  929. # [20:37] * rektide high fives JonathanNeal
  930. # [20:37] <Wilto> Somebody call for “Marquis?”… Oh.
  931. # [20:38] <JonathanNeal> <marquee class="specifyFunctionalityHere" data-someStyleAttributeUsedInCSS> content // and do not close the tag, your browser will do it for you.
  932. # [20:38] <David_Bradbury> Hmmm. Out of curiosity, what do you need the X in xhtml for rektide?
  933. # [20:38] <JonathanNeal> David_Bradbury: <br/>
  934. # [20:38] <David_Bradbury> Heh
  935. # [20:38] <Pomax> html5's too loose, it needs more uniform parsing rules, clearly
  936. # [20:38] * Joins: mr_lou (~sirlou@0x555321d8.adsl.cybercity.dk)
  937. # [20:38] <rektide> David_Bradbury: general disdain for people's inability to close tags properly
  938. # [20:39] <David_Bradbury> So... You can still suck at writing XHTML and it will accept it
  939. # [20:39] <David_Bradbury> The browser will
  940. # [20:39] <Pomax> if the spec says "... does not require closing", wouldn't that make it an inability to accept that? O_o
  941. # [20:39] <David_Bradbury> Also, HTML5 accepts closing tags, it just ignores them
  942. # [20:40] <JonathanNeal> XHTMJSSS simplifies everything by limiting the number of elements to the fingers on your hand.
  943. # [20:40] <David_Bradbury> Well, I think the engine implicitly closes them
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  945. # [20:40] <Pomax> frankly, unless you're adding the </> tag to mean "close previous thing", you're not XML-ed hard enough
  946. # [20:40] <JonathanNeal> XHTMJSSS WHATARIA specifies that you can use your toes if you are missing fingers, for accessibility compatibility.
  947. # [20:41] <David_Bradbury> You guys are silly :p
  948. # [20:41] <Pomax> one prolog function to parse them all.
  949. # [20:42] <chee> i've been having trouble correctly implementing a <blink> replacement with css3 animations
  950. # [20:43] <JonathanNeal> Here's a simple mockup of XHTMJSSS in action <marquee class="header">Google</marquee><input class="onClickValueEquals" type="text" value="Click here and type something and then press enter to have our search program find it on the internet for you"><!-- DVDDATA[ </input> ] --></marquee>
  951. # [20:43] * Joins: RobLoach (~RobLoach@drupal.org/user/61114/view)
  952. # [20:44] <JonathanNeal> Unfortunately that very popular mockup forgets one of the first rules of XHMJSSS, which is to NEVER close the <marquee> tag.
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  954. # [20:45] <rektide> ahh ha ha my mistake. dom state 11, INVALID_STATE_EXCEPTION does not mean no innerHTML. it just means i biffed the contents. thankfully mozilla firefox 1.5's addition of .innerHTML to XHTML survived.
  955. # [20:45] <Pomax> on a pendantic note, either it's the first, or it's not.
  956. # [20:45] <Pomax> it's not one of the first.
  957. # [20:45] <chee> i close tags because i heard that if you don't it's possible for the whole internet to get wrapped in your website and then it will take longer to load
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  959. # [20:46] <JonathanNeal> chee, in HTMLJSSS that would be handled by the <plaintext> tag.
  960. # [20:46] <Octayn> chee: they fixed that bug with HTML5's new parser
  961. # [20:46] <Octayn> Thank god, too.
  962. # [20:46] <David_Bradbury> I hear every time you try to use <blink> or try to re-implement it, Al Gore's inner demons start thrashing about wildly
  963. # [20:47] <Octayn> Top of my "Free time todo list" is <blink> using css animations >:)
  964. # [20:47] <Wilto> I knew I’d live to regret these “BLIN KTAG” knuckle tattoos.
  965. # [20:47] <chee> Octayn: i've been having a hard time doing it
  966. # [20:47] <chee> i want a blink and a marquee
  967. # [20:47] <chee> for geocities.css
  968. # [20:47] <David_Bradbury> Heh
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  971. # [20:48] <Pomax> the time we spend on things no one actually wants to use beyond "lol check it out" =)
  972. # [20:48] <chee> one of my favourite things about new html5 stuff is the drag'n'drop
  973. # [20:49] <chee> because it suddenly brought back to life websites that haven't worked for 10 years
  974. # [20:49] <David_Bradbury> Yeah, Dragon Drop is pretty cool
  975. # [20:49] <chee> David_Bradbury: i had actually typed 'dragon drop' then i deleted it
  976. # [20:49] <David_Bradbury> Haha
  977. # [20:49] <chee> David_Bradbury: are you google instant
  978. # [20:50] <David_Bradbury> :O
  979. # [20:50] <chee> there's an example website with a shopping cart that shows you how to use IE5.5's dragon drop functionality
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  981. # [20:50] <WebDragon> bwahhahah
  982. # [20:50] <chee> and it's just started working in firefox and chrome
  983. # [20:50] <chee> over the past year or so
  984. # [20:50] <David_Bradbury> That's ammusing
  985. # [20:51] <chee> which is delightful
  986. # [20:51] <Octayn> Link please!
  987. # [20:51] * Joins: ColKurtz (~ColKurtz@216.86.217.155)
  988. # [20:51] <chee> http://www.irt.org/articles/js204/iefull.htm
  989. # [20:52] <chee> here it is
  990. # [20:52] <chee> Drag Items Into Shopping Cart. Works in IE 5.0 only.
  991. # [20:52] <chee> 'undefined has been added to the shopping cart.' !
  992. # [20:52] <Octayn> Isn't working in ff10 it looks like
  993. # [20:52] <chee> i will have 5 undefineds please
  994. # [20:52] <Octayn> Oh mine
  995. # [20:52] <chee> Octayn: oh? try it in chrom
  996. # [20:52] <chee> i thought it did work in ff ! hum
  997. # [20:52] <Octayn> 'overDrag is not defined' among a gazillion other errors
  998. # [20:53] <chee> humgum
  999. # [20:53] <Octayn> Chrome works fine
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  1001. # [20:53] <chee> time to file a bug report
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  1003. # [20:55] <chee> i ate too many fajitas
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  1018. # [21:12] <dsyme> in html5 I do not self close tags? is that right? so <hr /> becomes <hr> and <img /> becomes <img>, etc?
  1019. # [21:12] <Octayn> yes, you can omit end tags.
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  1022. # [21:15] <rektide> and attempting to close them has no effect
  1023. # [21:16] <rektide> no that's just solo tags
  1024. # [21:16] <rektide> details details
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  1071. # [22:19] <trumpetmic> anyone know of a tool that makes it easy to create introductory walkthroughs of your web app, for first-time users?
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  1075. # [22:22] <trumpetmic> something that walks you through the actual application?
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  1081. # [22:31] <someprimetime> so i'm cloning an object because the FileList object is readonly… so that's all fine, and when i remove values of it, that's fine now with the cloned object
  1082. # [22:31] <someprimetime> the problem is, the length always stays the same and isn't getting updated
  1083. # [22:32] <someprimetime> do i need to update the length property each time i remove properties from the object?
  1084. # [22:32] <Armen_> are you sure you're not still referencing the read-only object
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  1087. # [22:33] <someprimetime> Armen_: yeah because now i just changed the length property of the object manually
  1088. # [22:34] <someprimetime> this is getting so fucking messy
  1089. # [22:34] <someprimetime> i wish FileList wasn't readonly
  1090. # [22:34] <someprimetime> :(
  1091. # [22:34] <aaairc> is it possible to have a text input, where the starting text is fixed and can't be changed?
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  1093. # [22:35] <aaairc> for example, i want to have an input field where the user could enter that twitter hashtag. i would like to force the text box to always have a greyed out "@" symbol at the beginning, and then the user could add their twitter name after that, but not delete the "@" symbol which would be fixed at the beginning
  1094. # [22:36] <Armen_> aaairc: you can fake it with margins and text in a div that is absolutely positioned over the textbox...
  1095. # [22:36] <someprimetime> ^^
  1096. # [22:36] <someprimetime> what Armen_ said
  1097. # [22:36] <someprimetime> that's probably the best solution
  1098. # [22:36] <aaairc> ok, i was thinking of doing something like that, but was hoping there was just a standard way to do it instead of hacking it
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  1100. # [22:38] <someprimetime> aaairc: http://jsfiddle.net/someprimetime/Wb4hY/
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  1103. # [22:39] <aaairc> someprimetime: great thanks. the only thing left is to either process the addition of the @ symbol either with jquery with the webform when someone hits submit or on the server side.
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  1106. # [22:43] <someprimetime> aaairc: http://jsfiddle.net/someprimetime/Wb4hY/1/
  1107. # [22:44] <aaairc> someprimetime: thanks again!
  1108. # [22:44] <someprimetime> np
  1109. # [22:47] <someprimetime> aaairc: alternatively you could just process it with whatever backend language you're using when you loop through your table in your db
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  1113. # [22:52] <someprimetime> process = prepend ;P
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  1118. # [22:57] <aaairc> someprimetime: ok i'll look into that
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  1120. # [23:00] <someprimetime> hey anyone going to the html5 meetup in SF tomorrow?
  1121. # [23:01] <someprimetime> @stackmob hQ
  1122. # [23:01] <someprimetime> HQ
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  1131. # [23:09] <pace_t_zulu> anyone know how to edit the href url of an anchor tag that is contenteditable?
  1132. # [23:13] <pace_t_zulu> so this is a very active channel then
  1133. # [23:14] <moo-_-> pace_t_zulu: maybe anyone just doesn't know :)
  1134. # [23:14] <Octayn> pace_t_zulu: an attribute of an element isn't its content
  1135. # [23:14] <Octayn> 'contenteditable' to me doesn't imply you *can*
  1136. # [23:14] <Octayn> (And I'm not finding a way to do it, either)
  1137. # [23:15] <pace_t_zulu> moo-_- Octayn ... perhaps a good jquery plugin
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  1141. # [23:17] <Octayn> If I were to implement that, it certainly wouldn't be with jquery :)
  1142. # [23:18] <Octayn> pace_t_zulu: So what do you want? A little textbox to pop up with to change the href attr?
  1143. # [23:18] <pace_t_zulu> Octayn: pretty much
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  1145. # [23:18] <pace_t_zulu> Octayn: i guess an clickable icon next to the link that would bring up a modal
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  1150. # [23:25] <pace_t_zulu> Octayn: why not jquery?
  1151. # [23:27] <Octayn> pace_t_zulu: I dislike it and find that all the browsers I target support the DOM consistently enough for my purposes. I do not need/want the sugar and I do not like the way that things using jQuery tend to devolve into a puddly mess of spaghetti code
  1152. # [23:28] <Octayn> (that and why does a selector/manipulation library include a plugin interface and animations?!)
  1153. # [23:29] <someprimetime> Octayn: i think the plugin interface is quite nice if you are looking to writing namespaced modular plugins to handle a wide range of things accross your site
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  1155. # [23:30] <pace_t_zulu> Octayn: i've found javascript consistency across browsers to be unacceptably bad
  1156. # [23:30] <pace_t_zulu> Octayn: perhaps because there is no javascript specification
  1157. # [23:30] <someprimetime> pace_t_zulu: wtf
  1158. # [23:30] <Octayn> Uh, wht?
  1159. # [23:30] <someprimetime> jquery IS javascript
  1160. # [23:30] <someprimetime> anything you do in jquery uses javascript
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  1162. # [23:30] <Octayn> pace_t_zulu: I have ECMA-262 sitting right in front of me, in paper form.
  1163. # [23:30] <pace_t_zulu> jquery handles incompatibilities
  1164. # [23:30] <someprimetime> pace_t_zulu: like?
  1165. # [23:31] <Octayn> jQuery adds selectors where the browser omits them. It smooths out DOM inconsistencies, *not* JS ones.
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  1167. # [23:31] <pace_t_zulu> Octayn: do all browsers support ecma-262?
  1168. # [23:31] <Octayn> And in modern browsers, those inconsistencies are few and far between
  1169. # [23:31] <Octayn> pace_t_zulu: You better believe it
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  1171. # [23:32] <pace_t_zulu> Octayn: how bout internet explorer 6-8
  1172. # [23:32] <Octayn> pace_t_zulu: they do too. v3, though
  1173. # [23:32] <Octayn> I don't target those browsers.
  1174. # [23:32] <Octayn> And they don't support contenteditable anyway, so what's the point?
  1175. # [23:32] <someprimetime> who even develops for IE 6-7
  1176. # [23:33] <pace_t_zulu> Octayn: i'd rather not target them
  1177. # [23:33] <someprimetime> lol
  1178. # [23:33] <someprimetime> wat
  1179. # [23:33] <Octayn> IE 6/7 usage is next to none, I've seen figures between 1-3%
  1180. # [23:33] <pace_t_zulu> Octayn: i don't do everything in html5
  1181. # [23:33] <someprimetime> pace_t_zulu: it seems you should read up more on js
  1182. # [23:34] <Octayn> pace_t_zulu: Neither do I
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  1184. # [23:34] <Octayn> All my markup is in html4.1
  1185. # [23:34] <Octayn> 4.01 that is
  1186. # [23:34] <pace_t_zulu> Octayn: enterprises still ask for ie support (not just 8&9)
  1187. # [23:34] <Octayn> pace_t_zulu: I'm sure they do
  1188. # [23:34] <Octayn> Thankfully, I don't work for any that do.
  1189. # [23:34] <chee> ie7 is like 3.3%
  1190. # [23:35] <pace_t_zulu> someprimetime: because i use jquery?
  1191. # [23:35] <Octayn> sizzle, on the other hand, is fantastic.
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  1194. # [23:35] <someprimetime> Octayn: psh
  1195. # [23:35] <someprimetime> sizzle ftl
  1196. # [23:36] <someprimetime> pseudo selectors just slow things down
  1197. # [23:36] <Octayn> When you don't have querySelector it's very useful
  1198. # [23:36] <Octayn> someprimetime: Yeah, well, I tire of walking the dom all the time
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  1200. # [23:36] <Octayn> my feet get sore :)
  1201. # [23:36] <someprimetime> hah touche
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  1203. # [23:37] <pace_t_zulu> someprimetime: why do you reckon i need to read up more on js ?
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  1206. # [23:37] <someprimetime> pace_t_zulu: because it's helpful to understand javascript at its core rather than an abstraction layer for interacting with it
  1207. # [23:38] <Octayn> Nothing has enlightened me more than my reading of 262
  1208. # [23:38] <someprimetime> i'd recommend: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/learn/javascript
  1209. # [23:38] <someprimetime> Octayn: did you print that out?
  1210. # [23:38] <someprimetime> that thing is like 300 pages
  1211. # [23:39] <Octayn> someprimetime: 4 'pages' to a side, double sides.
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  1213. # [23:39] <someprimetime> ooh clever
  1214. # [23:39] <Octayn> Hole punched and in a binder.. great for lots of things
  1215. # [23:39] <Octayn> Small text, but what can you do
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  1217. # [23:40] <Octayn> someprimetime: Oh neat, I've never seen that link before
  1218. # [23:40] <someprimetime> Octayn: yeah eviltwin in #jquery always plugs it
  1219. # [23:40] <someprimetime> now i'm plugging it in here ;)
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  1221. # [23:42] <carminec> Octayn: what is 252?
  1222. # [23:42] <pace_t_zulu> carminec: javascript specification
  1223. # [23:43] <Octayn> carminec: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-262.htm
  1224. # [23:43] <Octayn> Also see: http://es5.github.com/
  1225. # [23:43] <carminec> pace_t_zulu, Octayn: thanks
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  1232. # [23:45] <carminec> Octayn: Can you give a use case where it is easier to parse that doc rather than google for the problem?
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  1234. # [23:54] <Octayn> carminec: [] - {}
  1235. # [23:54] <Octayn> carminec: execute that in your REPL of choice
  1236. # [23:54] <Octayn> And then explain it
  1237. # [23:54] <Octayn> Spec reading is a skill, yes, but it's the only authoritative source for "What should happen". I will admit, I skipped over the grammar sections almost entirely.
  1238. # [23:55] <BrianBlakely> someprimetime / Octayn: My clients (large name-brands) generally have 5-10% IE7... IE6 usage is, of course, nearly zero
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  1240. # [23:55] <BrianBlakely> IE7 is still around
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  1243. # [23:56] * Quits: RobLoach (~RobLoach@drupal.org/user/61114/view) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1244. # [23:56] <BrianBlakely> IE8 is the big enemy, though, with about 30-40% of many brands' userbases
  1245. # [23:56] <someprimetime> i work for a startup and our user base is 7% ie7 (ironically)
  1246. # [23:56] * Quits: manuchill (~mstalfoor@81.69.16.186) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  1247. # [23:56] <someprimetime> our user base uses, 7% that is (worded better)
  1248. # [23:57] <someprimetime> IE6 is almost 1%
  1249. # [23:57] * Quits: tylerstalder (~tylerstal@c-50-131-59-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  1250. # [23:57] <someprimetime> but we don't mess with either of those since it's just a royal PITA
  1251. # [23:57] * Parts: pace_t_zulu (~jhaitas@unaffiliated/johnhaitas) ("Leaving...")
  1252. # [23:57] <Octayn> There needs to be a massive campaign everywhere to get people to upgrade their browsers.
  1253. # [23:57] <BrianBlakely> I plan on dropping IE7 support June-ish
  1254. # [23:57] <someprimetime> Octayn: there have been but it's pretty much impossible for larger corporations using legacy OSes and the like
  1255. # [23:58] <BrianBlakely> Octayn: MS is auto-upgrading Windows users over the next 6 months. Hopefully that boosts IE10 adoption (I expect it to release in April for Win7)
  1256. # [23:58] <Octayn> BrianBlakely: From all versions of IE?
  1257. # [23:59] * Joins: Kire_ (~Kire@adsl-065-006-168-106.sip.mia.bellsouth.net)
  1258. # [23:59] <someprimetime> wait that figure isn't right
  1259. # [23:59] <BrianBlakely> As someprimetime said, corporations aren't included in that auto-upgrade campaign, nor are users who have disabled Windows Update
  1260. # [23:59] <Octayn> (Doesn't help with the corporations but what can you do)
  1261. # [23:59] <someprimetime> i was looking at the breakdown within IE
  1262. # [23:59] * Quits: chokri (~chokri@41.224.171.245) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  1263. # [23:59] <BrianBlakely> Octayn: Yeah, all Windows users should be getting the latest their OS supports
  1264. # [23:59] <someprimetime> when compared the the amount of total IE users and multiplied by 100, that number of IE7 users is @ 2%
  1265. # [23:59] * Quits: dev360_ (~ctoivola@c-174-61-12-19.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) (Quit: dev360_)
  1266. # [23:59] <someprimetime> which is correct
  1267. # [23:59] <someprimetime> safari/chrome are the top browsers
  1268. # [23:59] <someprimetime> so webkit in general.
  1269. # Session Close: Thu Feb 23 00:00:01 2012

The end :)