/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-03-03 / end

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# Session Start: Sat Mar 03 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:05] <paul_irish> Are there any tools that convert a -webkit-gradient() function to -webkit-linear-gradient() one?
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# [00:07] <markkes> paul_irish
# [00:07] <markkes> http://lea.verou.me/2011/03/convert-standard-gradient-syntax-to-webkit-gradient-and-others/
# [00:07] <markkes> could this help you?
# [00:07] <paul_irish> miketaylr:
# [00:08] <miketaylr> markkes: yeah, i want the other way!
# [00:09] <miketaylr> old -> new. this goes new -> old
# [00:09] <markkes> ah yea right.. xD
# [00:09] <miketaylr> but thanks!
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# [00:10] <miketaylr> paul_irish: this might be it: http://www.colorzilla.com/gradient-editor/ (see the import from css button on the bottom)
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# [00:16] <miketaylr> markkes: now i'll use lea's tool to verify the output ^_^
# [00:17] <miketaylr> heh "background: linear-gradient(top, rgba(0,0,0,0) 80%,rgba(0,0,0,0) 100%);"
# [00:17] <miketaylr> gradient cannot be parsed
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# [01:05] <chovy> damn. someone just built my idea.
# [01:05] <chovy> http://skills.to
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# [01:09] <xonecas> paul_irish: thanks for having a look :)
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# [01:31] <divya> ahhh devongovett
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# [01:46] <paul_irish> this might be the craziest part of html5
# [01:46] <paul_irish> http://developers.whatwg.org/text-level-semantics.html#the-kbd-element
# [01:47] <paul_irish> <p>To make George eat an apple, press <kbd><kbd>Shift</kbd>+<kbd>F3</kbd></kbd>
# [01:48] <danielfilho> that's weird
# [01:48] <danielfilho> just to point some keyboard representation
# [01:49] <Octayn> Crazy? Eh. Defintitely wonky.
# [01:50] <xonecas> I like it, it's not repetitive at all
# [01:50] <danielfilho> like: press <kbd><kbd>⌘</kbd>, <kbd>⌥</kbd>, <kbd>⇧</kbd> and <kbd>⎋</kbd></kbd>
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# [01:52] <Octayn> I'm toying around with an idea that would let me play with all the fancy new api's and markup. The end result will be some files and optionally some directories (optionally containing files and directories and such, normal filesystem like you'd expect). I figure I can build a simple filesystem on top of localStorage as my needs are few.
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# [01:53] <Octayn> But I'd like the user to be able to take their finished work and 'download' it from the page somehow.
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# [01:53] <Octayn> Is it possible to do that? (It'd be running entirely locally, no server-side logic at all, just as a toy project pretty much)
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# [02:09] <divya> devongovett: !!!!
# [02:09] <daleharvey> paul_irish: there?
# [02:09] <devongovett> hello divya
# [02:10] <divya> devongovett: good to see you here! sooo i just wanted to say, sorry you getting too many brickbats for your sproutcore outputting to canvas.
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# [02:10] <daleharvey> http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/indexeddb/todo/ seems like there would be a bug here on step 2 if(v!= db.version) { .... getalltodo() } getalltodos();
# [02:10] <devongovett> not my code, just my article ;)
# [02:10] <divya> devongovett: i think people were in vehement opposition to the very idea.
# [02:11] <divya> while I agree with the sentiment of what you are trying to accomplish, I think the best possible outcome would be to do it like native code.
# [02:11] <divya> if it could be done.
# [02:11] <divya> :))
# [02:11] * divya waits for brickbats
# [02:12] <devongovett> divya: people are entitled to their opinions. I simply provide news about what others are building. Experimentation is good
# [02:12] <divya> for sure.
# [02:12] <devongovett> but def provide feedback to #blossom if you feel like it
# [02:12] <divya> can dos.
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# [02:13] <divya> devongovett: my theory is we should allow more languages to write code that would be understood by browsers (not be 'compiled to' html/css/js/svg and then interpreted again by browser engines and then processed to bytecode).
# [02:14] <divya> anyways, thats my theory that would resolve current conflicts
# [02:14] <devongovett> perhaps, although that poses other problems
# [02:14] <divya> like?
# [02:15] <devongovett> different browsers supporting different languages. there goes your cross browser compat. Right now, JS is the ultimate cross platform language. If browsers started supporting one language here and another there, we lose that.
# [02:15] <devongovett> I like compile to JS langs for this reason
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# [02:15] <divya> devongovett: yaya thats where NaCl comes in i hope.
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# [02:16] <divya> the idea is every language can compile to bytecode
# [02:16] <divya> then nacl interprets it and runs it!
# [02:16] <devongovett> yeah, theoretically that makes sense, but then you basically have Java applets again
# [02:16] <divya> or flash.
# [02:16] <divya> but OPEN SOURCE.
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# [02:17] <divya> i dunno, every time i read the html apis i just despair, my friend and I are maintaining a document that details WTF HTML API.
# [02:18] <devongovett> divya: also, you have problems with certain security issues, either perceived or real. I can't imagine Apple *ever* putting a compiled language in mobile safari for instance
# [02:18] <divya> yeahh that could be true :/
# [02:18] <divya> see this is why i am asking so i can glean holes in my theory
# [02:20] <devongovett> HTML and CSS have their problems and were designed for documents, but JS is really quite powerful and is a pretty nice language. Other langs can iterate on syntax quickly while JS retains backward compat and introduces new VM features that would be impossible in a compile to JS lang (e.g. Proxys). Thanks to JS frameworks that abstract HTML and CSS in various ways, the end users don't have to see the problems.
# [02:20] <devongovett> The platform needs lots of work, but I think it can be done
# [02:20] <divya> devongovett: sure but there are a lot of pretty interesting things other languages are doing
# [02:20] <divya> no need to lock them out of the meat :)
# [02:20] <divya> given web has been declared as the platform to develop for.
# [02:21] <devongovett> like...? which of them can you not do in a compile to JS lang? and if not, which of these can you not get by extending JS?
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# [02:21] <divya> devongovett: there are new languages coming up all the time, plus old ones from which JS is just now picking up ideas but executing them very hackily like Haskell
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# [02:22] <divya> my point is making javascript the only language of the web would tie the web platform to a very narrow set of what it can or cannot do.
# [02:22] <Octayn> The problem with having a generic vm like you suggest is that it can only support so much
# [02:23] <divya> Octayn: why?
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# [02:23] <Octayn> divya: because otherwise it'd be infinitely large?
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# [02:23] <Octayn> (lemme finish!)
# [02:23] <divya> …
# [02:23] <StoneCypher> did you just call haskell hackish?
# [02:24] <devongovett> divya: what can another language do that JS can't, other than have a different syntax (which is accomplishable via compile to JS langs)?
# [02:24] <divya> there was a comma missing StoneCypher
# [02:24] <StoneCypher> where
# [02:24] <divya> err no devongovett haskell is not mere syntax. but obviously i am talking out of my hat because I like what I see in haskell but have not invested time to learn it.
# [02:25] <divya> StoneCypher: i said javascript implements concepts of functional programming hackily
# [02:25] <divya> orr you can only implement it hackily in js because of lack of inherent support
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# [02:26] <divya> nlogax might be able to explain what JS lacks that haskell has :))
# [02:26] <Octayn> actually I don't know where I was going with that vm comment. I swear I had a coherent thought but it's too late for me to think straight :\
# [02:26] <nlogax> wat
# [02:26] <divya> ok Octayn
# [02:26] <divya> nlogax: devongovett says what can another language do that JS can't, other than have a different syntax (which is accomplishable via compile to JS langs)?
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# [02:27] <Octayn> Well compile-to-js langs can do a lot more than syntax. See: Dart
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# [02:27] <divya> Octayn: if it compiles to js, you are restricted by what js will provide out of box.
# [02:27] <devongovett> divya I don't think all the problems can be solved, or what the best solution is... But I do know that there are problems with browsers all supporting different languages. I also know that there are a lot of language implementations in JavaScript, either directly mapping source code to JS or by implementing a VM in JS. See the Dart thread on WebKit mailing list for other reasons why adding multiple VMs could be potentially bad
# [02:27] <StoneCypher> divya: there is nowhere to place a comma that changes what you said into that
# [02:28] <devongovett> StoneCypher: doesn't matter. she clarified.
# [02:28] <nlogax> what can js do that punchcars can't?
# [02:28] <paul_irish> i think most people just want to see LLVM in a browser..
# [02:28] <StoneCypher> and here comes turing equivalence
# [02:28] <paul_irish> s/a browser/all browsers/
# [02:28] <StoneCypher> the least useful argument available
# [02:28] <divya> yep
# [02:29] <devongovett> paul_irish divya yeah but you know that's never going to happen
# [02:29] <divya> its the only solution that would allow programmers to actually think web as a viable platform.
# [02:29] <divya> (in my view at least)
# [02:29] <StoneCypher> divya: there are quite a few standing counterexamples
# [02:29] <paul_irish> certainly the single threaded constraint is real. probably many others
# [02:29] <StoneCypher> divya: if you really can't name one, i'm not sure what to tell you
# [02:29] <devongovett> Apple isn't going to add that to iOS, and others won't either. Too many security risks.
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# [02:29] <divya> learning 3 different inconsistent languages is a problem.
# [02:30] <StoneCypher> not really
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# [02:30] <StoneCypher> maybe for you
# [02:30] <StoneCypher> welcome to the meritocracy
# [02:30] <divya> like boris said here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0049.html
# [02:30] <divya> its right on dot.
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# [02:31] <devongovett> divya: I agree with you, so why not learn one: JS, or some lang implemented in JS. Then you have a library that builds a nice API to replace HTML and CSS and you're set. Kinda like Dart I suppose, except without the VM and the ugly syntax ;)
# [02:32] <StoneCypher> divya: funny thing about religion: it lets people make arguments while ignoring data by pointing to what other people say and agreeing with it, rather than making coherent claims of their own, or evidentiating them
# [02:33] <divya> i dunno, i guess i just have seen some of this haskell stuff explained to me that was amazing and then I look at the puddle of JS i need to write to do something in even less readable syntax and I sigh.
# [02:33] <divya> devongovett: since you ask, i shall compile any such code i come across
# [02:33] <divya> i dont recollect at this moment.
# [02:33] <devongovett> so write a Haskell implementation in JS? Or compile it with Emscripten? :D
# [02:34] <devongovett> Emscripten is basically LLVM in JS
# [02:34] <devongovett> LLVM in the browser I mean
# [02:34] <divya> no
# [02:34] <divya> snippets of code that haskell does really well in
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# [02:34] <divya> but js generates a pool of ()()()
# [02:34] <nlogax> i think syntax is the least of JS' problems :)
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# [02:36] <nlogax> but not wanting to claw your eyes out is also nice
# [02:36] <divya> hahahaha
# [02:36] <devongovett> why are you looking at the generated JS? Would you read the bytecodes downloaded?
# [02:36] <divya> i meann js code that I write, I used generate wrongly.
# [02:37] <jarek> is this a JS/Coffeescript flame? May I join in?
# [02:37] <divya> no.
# [02:37] <Octayn> No it isn't
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# [02:38] <devongovett> Anyway, IMO JS (or a lang that compiles to JS) + a good framework to abstract HTML and CSS + some additional APIs added to web browsers = all you need :) but everyone has their own preferences I guess
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# [02:40] <devongovett> I have a list of APIs missing from the web platform that I plan to write up soon, and hopefully get into the hands of the right people. I'll have to figure out who those people are, and what the process is, but I'll most certainly be interested in feedback and contributions from the community. I already started here: http://github.com/devongovett/standards/issues
# [02:42] <nlogax> i think there's one tool that is the best for every job, also everyone happens to love this tool
# [02:42] <nlogax> j/k i'd also like some form of standardized bytecode, or whatever would give us some choice
# [02:43] <daleharvey> http://docs.phonegap.com/en/1.4.1/index.html would be a decent start :D
# [02:43] <daleharvey> anyone know if theres a way to list the indexeddb databases currently created?
# [02:44] <daleharvey> also it majorly sucks that its pretty much impossible to dynamically create object stores within an indexed database
# [02:44] <devongovett> IndexedDB is in serious need of docs
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# [02:45] <devongovett> and library abstractions with usable APIs ;)
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# [02:45] <daleharvey> and a single implementation
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# [02:45] <devongovett> if there was a single implementation you'd be out of work... haha jk
# [02:46] <daleharvey> oh wait, looks like chrome supports upgrade needed in fact, thats nice
# [02:46] <jarek> is there an online service that would allow me to convert video and audio files into HTML5-compatible format?
# [02:47] <jarek> just wondering, what would be a potential use case for IndexedDB?
# [02:47] <jarek> for user conifgs localStorage is just perfect
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# [02:48] <jarek> and for caching assets filesystem API seems to be a better choice
# [02:48] <daleharvey> and for a database ... :)
# [02:48] <jarek> daleharvey: what kind of app would need fully-fledged database on the client side?
# [02:49] <daleharvey> any app that has data and wants to work offline
# [02:49] <daleharvey> ie all of them
# [02:50] <jarek> localStorage seems to be just enough for majority of purposes
# [02:50] <jarek> but I'm not saying that it's bad that we have IndexedDB
# [02:50] <daleharvey> localstorage requires everything be serialised through a string (wtf), its transient and gets cleared pretty much arbitrarily, and its crazy slow
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# [02:51] <jarek> daleharvey: you can easily implement getter/setter methods for localStorage that would do JSON serialization
# [02:51] <daleharvey> reading 5mb of data that needs parsed into json through a single threaded api is not nice to people
# [02:52] <daleharvey> especially when you only want to show them the last item
# [02:52] <jarek> I read it only once: when the app is started
# [02:52] <jarek> then I save the data back when the app is about to be closed
# [02:53] <daleharvey> onleave only lets you produce an alert, it doesnt let you run code
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# [02:53] <jarek> daleharvey: I'm using 'pagehide' event
# [02:54] <jarek> daleharvey: https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Using_Firefox_1.5_caching#pagehide_event
# [02:54] <jarek> it's also recommended by WebKit devs
# [02:55] <jarek> http://www.webkit.org/blog/516/webkit-page-cache-ii-the-unload-event/
# [02:55] <daleharvey> nice, I never knew about that, thanks
# [02:55] <jarek> the fact that localStorage is synchronous is in my opinion a big advantage
# [02:56] <jarek> assuming that you are not using it for storing only app state and configs
# [02:56] <jarek> s/you are not using/you are using
# [02:58] <daleharvey> still, if you are planning on having an app store any serious amount of data, localStorage isnt going to be able to manage it
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# [02:59] <daleharvey> deserialising 5mb of json takes a while, and theres the 5mb limit
# [02:59] <jarek> let's say that I want to implement dictionary app
# [02:59] <jarek> the app would support various languages, but English and Spanish would be the default
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# [03:00] <jarek> the dictionary data would stored in several JSON files, e.g.: en-es-a.json, en-es-b.json, en-es.json
# [03:01] <jarek> with IndexedDB I would have to first download all the JSON files and then insert them into database, right?
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# [03:01] <jarek> then, even though the data will be stored on local machine, I would still need to access it asynchrounsly (which is a pain)
# [03:02] <jarek> wouldn't it make more sense to use HTML5 web cache instead?
# [03:03] <daleharvey> certainly
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# [03:04] <jarek> but this would mean that JSON files would have to be downloaded upfront as well
# [03:04] <jarek> according to the manifest file
# [03:04] <jarek> this sucks, I don't want the user to wait for the app to load
# [03:05] <daleharvey> not they wouldnt, appcache doesnt block loading
# [03:06] <jarek> daleharvey: but the app would not be functional without at least one JSON file
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# [03:07] <daleharvey> but any application that stores arbitrary unbounded data, is going to need a database, so 1. it ensure it stays on disk, localstorage and appcache are both fairly transient and 2, so you can seek / query large datasets without keeping the entire data set in memory
# [03:09] <jarek> my another idea was to have two copies of the dictionary data: one on the server and one the client side
# [03:09] <daleharvey> saying that, I am not loving idb right now :D
# [03:10] <jarek> normally the the server-side dictionary would be queried with websockets, and the local copy would be accesssed only when there is no internet connection
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# [03:10] <jarek> I could fill the local database silently after the whole app has loaded
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# [03:15] <jarek> what is the most performant HTML5 audio codec?
# [03:15] <jarek> AAC/mp4?
# [03:16] <nlogax> good hardware support for that one
# [03:16] <jarek> I experience some lagging with wav and mp3 files
# [03:16] <jarek> or the files are not played at all randomly
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# [03:21] <jarek> does it matter whether I use .aac or .mp4 extension?
# [03:22] <jarek> FAAC converter generates .aac files by default
# [03:22] <Pomax> I'm using mp3 + ogg
# [03:25] <jarek> Pomax: I have already tried mp3s, they don't play all the time on Chrome
# [03:25] <jarek> sometimes audio stops working after several plays
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# [03:26] <jarek> I can't find any tutorial that would explain how to convert audio files to HTML5-compatible mp4s
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# [03:28] <Pomax> hm, seems to work decently well in Chrome for me, but then my audio files are fairly small
# [03:28] <jarek> ahh, it works, I had to use "faac -w audio.wav" command
# [03:30] <Pomax> .wav is huge, though O_o
# [03:30] <Pomax> oh wait, input file
# [03:30] <Pomax> nm =P
# [03:32] <jarek> yeah, it outputs .m4a file
# [03:32] <jarek> not sure if it's the same thing as mp4, but seems to work fine on chrome
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# [03:39] <Pomax> m4a is the extension associated with the audio layer of an mp4 media file. usuappy .mp4 is for the video format.
# [03:39] <Pomax> *usually
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# [03:39] <jarek> the name is rather confusing, they should have using something like .mp4a
# [03:39] <jarek> s/have using/have used
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# [03:47] <jarek> "Note that the quality of FAAC is not up to par with the currently best AAC encoders available."
# [03:47] <jarek> what are those "best AAC encoders available"?
# [03:50] <techrush> audiophiles are sad
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# [03:54] <Pomax> the real question is "can you tell it's not perfect audio"
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# [03:58] <jarek> I don't really care about quality that much, but it should play fast and without any lags
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# [03:59] <jarek> is there an easy way to limit that maximal number of audio files that can be played at any given moment?
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# [03:59] <Pomax> track our audio elements using JS?
# [03:59] <Pomax> *your
# [04:00] * jarek googles for JS audio events
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# [05:34] <dilvie> jarek: one audio element can't play twice at the same time, afaik... can it?
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# [05:35] <dilvie> jarek: so if you want to limit the voices, just create an array of voices whose length won't exceed the number of voices you want playing simultaneously? =)
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# [05:36] <imsky> you guys ever get the feeling
# [05:36] <imsky> that we're reimplementing an OS inside the browser?
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# [05:40] <Hail_Spacecake> I want to create a subsection of a page for messages that has a separate scrollbar
# [05:40] <Hail_Spacecake> not initially, but as messages get added to it, if they get too long, a scrollbar appears
# [05:40] <Hail_Spacecake> I'm not sure how to do this
# [05:41] <Hail_Spacecake> the way I'm doing it now, I have a div with id=noticeList and I jquery prepend new divs to it
# [05:41] <Hail_Spacecake> but that just makes the page as a whole longer
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# [05:51] <chovy> Hail_Spacecake: ul { height: 200px; overflow-y: auto; }
# [05:51] <dilvie> imsky: that's exactly what's going on.
# [05:52] <imsky> i knew it
# [05:52] <chovy> imsky: yup. html5 will deprecate the need for desktop computers.
# [05:52] <dilvie> imsky: it's been moving that way for years. Pretty soon an "OS" is just going to be a thin kernel that launches a browser. =)
# [05:52] <chovy> all you will need is a browser.
# [05:52] <imsky> you guys
# [05:52] <imsky> you're pranking me
# [05:52] <chovy> you see the Chrome notebook?
# [05:52] <chovy> all it has is Chrome browser on it.
# [05:52] <imsky> man that's amazing
# [05:52] <dilvie> you can't install any other software
# [05:52] <dilvie> it's just chrome
# [05:53] <chovy> http://www.google.com/intl/en/chromebook/
# [05:53] <dilvie> not that you need any other software...
# [05:53] <chovy> we got our hands on one at Yahoo. and all it had on it was the browser.
# [05:53] <chovy> You could install apps too from the android store I think, but that was it.
# [05:54] <dilvie> chovy: those apps just run in the browser.
# [05:54] <dilvie> they're not actual desktop apps
# [05:54] <chovy> I thought they were android apps.
# [05:55] <chovy> but i could be wrong.
# [05:55] <dilvie> no, it's not the android store... it's the chrome web store
# [05:55] <chovy> ah
# [05:55] <dilvie> and they're browser based apps
# [05:55] <dilvie> https://chrome.google.com/webstore/category/home
# [05:55] <chovy> there ya go
# [05:56] <chovy> i just saw that.
# [05:56] <dilvie> you can get apps with any chrome
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# [05:58] <chovy> i haven't made the switch to chrome yet. still using Firefox.
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# [08:41] <paul_irish> First atom: "I lost an electron." Second atom: "Are you positive?"
# [08:42] <mike5w3c> har har
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# [08:43] <paul_irish> :D
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# [11:18] <nlogax> chovy: chromebook is the most claustrophobic computing experience i've ever had
# [11:18] <nlogax> also worst
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# [11:19] * nlogax prays to fsm that the future will not turn out like that
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# [16:08] <jurgentje> Hey... I'm trying to wrap my head around the localstorage feature in HTML5, but also trying to learn JS (since it's core part of it) - I think I'm doing the localstorage wrong, but don't know how to do it right. Could you guys help me out? URL: http://html5.gaeremyn.be/
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# [16:13] <xec> jurgentje: you mean geolocation?
# [16:13] <jurgentje> the geolocation thing works...
# [16:13] <jurgentje> but then I tried to store data locally (last part)
# [16:13] <jurgentje> but for some reason I get a null and empty stuff in my localstorage database
# [16:14] <nlogax> jurgentje: you are using el.getAttribute("value") (and others) when it should be el.value
# [16:14] <jurgentje> ah, okay... thanks! So I can use this instead of setAttribute('value') too?
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# [17:45] <Certo> anybody interested in buying a website?
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# [18:16] <andrewjbaker> HTML5 browser-based games online meetup is now livestreaming.
# [18:17] <andrewjbaker> http://livestream.com/bbgmeetup
# [18:17] <andrewjbaker> James from Illytiad (http://illyriad.co.uk) is speaking right now. :-D
# [18:17] <andrewjbaker> *Illyriad
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# [18:56] <m0> Has anyone here used WebAudio? I am trying to load mp3, and some tracks when doing a context.decodeAudioData throws an error (there is no detail on why the error is getting thrown)
# [18:57] <m0> How would I know why decoding threw an error?
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# [19:49] <m0> MP3 weirdness, converting to OGG worked. will file a bug
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# [19:58] <m0> http://crbug.com/116686
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# [21:59] <Pomax> hm, looks like Chrome is rounding font size values...
# [21:59] <Pomax> set font-size to some em size, firefox: 19.2 and 18.9 px, chrome: 19 and 19
# [21:59] <Pomax> =x
# [21:59] <Pomax> bugfiling time
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# [22:07] <andrewjbaker> The browser-based games channel on Freenode (#bbg) wrapped up its 3rd bbgmeetup.Watch it back here: http://www.livestream.com/bbgmeetup/video?clipId=pla_fab1fa9d-58d5-4c86-ac12-87745d730fec&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb Skip to 25:00 mins in.Lots of HTML5 discussion/<3
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# [22:10] <Pomax> aww, and here I just made a browser based game engine =(
# [22:10] <andrewjbaker> LMAO.
# [22:10] <Pomax> timing.
# [22:10] <andrewjbaker> You're in the wrong channel.^^
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# [22:10] <Pomax> that can be fixed
# [22:10] <andrewjbaker> Well, you're in the right channel.
# [22:11] <andrewjbaker> And another besides. ;-)
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# [23:57] <johnkpaul> is there a mobile web development irc channel?
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# Session Close: Sun Mar 04 00:00:00 2012

The end :)