/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-03-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 07 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  4. # [00:03] <chovy> has anyone used xhp with html5?
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  35. # [00:43] <andrewjbaker> All RTs and recommendations gratefully recv'd... https://twitter.com/#!/andrew_j_baker2/status/177174381783560192
  36. # [00:43] <socialhapy> ★ Tweet from andrew_j_baker2: The #HTML5 browser-based games IRC channel on Freenode is compiling a list of resources for beginners. http://t.co/hlJ9Rj8a Recommendations? ★ http://bit.ly/Af10fX
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  48. # [00:55] <andrewjbaker> I mean, you do use HTML5 for gamedev, right? :-p
  49. # [00:56] <andrewjbaker> All those boring *yawn* enterprise-y sites aren't your true raison d'etre?^^
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  53. # [00:58] <grantg> miketaylr: https://github.com/grantgalitz/GameBoy-Online/issues/18
  54. # [00:58] <socialhapy> ★ Issue #18 on GameBoy-Online, reported by miketaylr (1h, 24m ago): More details on Opera typed arrays comments
  55. # [00:58] <miketaylr> grantg: YO just saw
  56. # [00:58] <miketaylr> thx
  57. # [00:58] <grantg> yeah
  58. # [00:58] <miketaylr> grantg: i'm trying to find the best person to take a look
  59. # [00:58] <grantg> Critical bug that makes integer typed arrays useless
  60. # [00:58] <miketaylr> y u no report
  61. # [00:58] <grantg> I did
  62. # [00:59] <grantg> Probably got lost in the pile-o-bug reports
  63. # [00:59] <miketaylr> oh nice
  64. # [00:59] <miketaylr> happen to know the #?
  65. # [00:59] <grantg> not atm
  66. # [00:59] <grantg> no
  67. # [00:59] <andrewjbaker> See, I knew it. Secretly beavering away on gaming related fun stuffs.^^
  68. # [00:59] <miketaylr> lemme see if i can find it
  69. # [01:00] <grantg> If it's not there, then my mind is playing tricks on me
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  71. # [01:01] <grantg> yeah
  72. # [01:01] <grantg> got the number
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  74. # [01:01] <grantg> DSK-355172
  75. # [01:01] <miketaylr> BOOM
  76. # [01:01] <grantg> obviously it no longer crashes due to the workaround
  77. # [01:01] <miketaylr> thanks again
  78. # [01:01] <miketaylr> well, let's get it fixed so we can remove the workaround
  79. # [01:01] <grantg> remove the window.opera sniffing to test the bug
  80. # [01:02] <miketaylr> hmm looks like it was fixed internally
  81. # [01:02] <grantg> when?
  82. # [01:02] <miketaylr> i'll double check with the carakan dudes
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  84. # [01:03] <miketaylr> 2012-01-25
  85. # [01:03] <grantg> hmm
  86. # [01:03] <miketaylr> but not in opera next yet maybe
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  88. # [01:03] <grantg> I reported it on the 13th of january
  89. # [01:04] <miketaylr> fix was put in code review on the 18th
  90. # [01:05] <miketaylr> grantg: i'll comment on that issue (and close it) when i find out when and where it should land, gotta run right now
  91. # [01:06] <grantg> thanks
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  95. # [01:08] <JonathanNeal> hi
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  111. # [01:32] <yonkeltron> we put <section> in <article> or <article> in <section>?
  112. # [01:32] <yonkeltron> do we have consensus on such matters?
  113. # [01:33] <xp_prg> hi all, I am on jsfiddle and I can't make a legend show
  114. # [01:33] <xp_prg> can anyone show me an example of that working?
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  134. # [02:20] <matijam> hi
  135. # [02:20] <matijam> is this the right place for html5 boilerplate?
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  137. # [02:21] <andrewjbaker> Yes, amongst other things.
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  140. # [02:21] <matijam> Has anyone ever tried to contribute to h5bp website?
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  142. # [02:22] <andrewjbaker> paul_irish, *ping*
  143. # [02:22] <matijam> I didn't see him, thanks
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  145. # [02:23] <andrewjbaker> YW... tho' I believe there are other h5bp contributors in here.
  146. # [02:23] <andrewjbaker> I don't like to bug Paul all the time cos' I know he's a busy man.
  147. # [02:24] <matijam> Hm he's not answering, I don't know if he's here...
  148. # [02:24] <andrewjbaker> It's IRC... you may have to hand around for a while. ;-)
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  150. # [02:25] <matijam> Yeah, this is my first time on IRC (pretty much).
  151. # [02:25] <tw2113> pester him anyway :)
  152. # [02:25] <matijam> You mean send him a message? I did :)
  153. # [02:25] <andrewjbaker> tw2113, LOL.
  154. # [02:25] <tw2113> i didn't say any specific way how
  155. # [02:26] <matijam> Is there another way here? :)
  156. # [02:26] <andrewjbaker> Na.
  157. # [02:26] <andrewjbaker> Just lurk for a bit.
  158. # [02:27] <tw2113> just don't tweet at @@Paulirish
  159. # [02:27] <andrewjbaker> There are plenty of lurkers in #html5. :-p
  160. # [02:27] <tw2113> oops, too many @'s
  161. # [02:27] <tw2113> anyways, wrong twitter account
  162. # [02:27] <matijam> I won't Tweet him :) It's @paul_irish
  163. # [02:27] <tw2113> smart person
  164. # [02:28] <andrewjbaker> tw2113, do I follow you on Twitter?
  165. # [02:28] <andrewjbaker> I mean, cos' you actually seem to converse.^^
  166. # [02:28] <matijam> I think I'm gonna go sleep, it's pretty late here in Croatia.
  167. # [02:28] <matijam> Good night guys.
  168. # [02:28] <andrewjbaker> matijam, night.
  169. # [02:29] * Parts: matijam (~matija@cpezg-94-253-130-51-cbl.xnet.hr)
  170. # [02:29] <tw2113> dunno, what's your ID?
  171. # [02:29] <andrewjbaker> @andrew_j_baker2
  172. # [02:30] * andrewjbaker likes to go concise.^^
  173. # [02:30] <tw2113> according to doesfollow.com, we don't follow each other
  174. # [02:30] <andrewjbaker> See, now that's just no good.
  175. # [02:30] <tw2113> @tw2113
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  178. # [02:31] * andrewjbaker follows...
  179. # [02:31] <someprimetime> what version of safari is filereader supported in?
  180. # [02:31] <someprimetime> doesn't seem to work with 5+ even though I thought it did
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  232. # [03:50] <alcuadrado> which is the state of the HTML5 spec? in the spec it reads "This specification is the 25 May 2011 Last Call Working Draft. The Last Call period ends 03 August 2011. " but that already happened
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  331. # [06:26] <niftylettuce> yo homies
  332. # [06:26] <niftylettuce> tw2113: supp
  333. # [06:27] <tw2113> slowly putting off client work
  334. # [06:27] <tw2113> i'm evil
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  392. # [08:28] <JonathanNeal> hi
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  471. # [10:47] <andrewjbaker> Morning, morning.
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  489. # [11:10] <Sisco> [wanted] assistance with html5/css3 mobile website, paid task, query me
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  498. # [11:27] <abraxas> speaking of wanted...
  499. # [11:28] <abraxas> [wanted] html5 game developers for a full time position
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  501. # [11:29] <andrewjbaker> abraxas, you should mention that in #bbg too. ;-)
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  503. # [11:32] <andrewjbaker> abraxas, plenty of HTML5 game devs in there.
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  506. # [11:38] <abraxas> thanks for the tip :)
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  563. # [13:33] <carlobruno> hi there
  564. # [13:34] <carlobruno> I don't know if somebody can help me
  565. # [13:34] <xec> carlobruno: neither do we
  566. # [13:34] <carlobruno> :)
  567. # [13:34] <carlobruno> i got a problem with the embed video and fixed navigation in google chrome
  568. # [13:34] <carlobruno> the video doesn't recognize z-index
  569. # [13:35] <carlobruno> works find in all other browsers
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  571. # [13:36] <carlobruno> here is the link..
  572. # [13:36] <carlobruno> http://neversaymedia.com/beta-nsm/
  573. # [13:36] <carlobruno> just in chrome the video doesn't under the navigation bar
  574. # [13:36] <carlobruno> this happen just for google chrome
  575. # [13:37] <xec> the video under case studies?
  576. # [13:37] <xec> ah, i see it
  577. # [13:38] * Parts: pinage404 (~pinage404@APuteaux-651-1-178-216.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr) ("Screw you guys I'm going home")
  578. # [13:38] <carlobruno> yes
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  580. # [13:40] <carlobruno> i tried this http://maxmorgandesign.com/fix_youtube_iframe_overlay_and_z_index_issues/
  581. # [13:40] <carlobruno> but it's not working
  582. # [13:45] <xec> yes, i'm befuddled too
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  584. # [13:49] <carlobruno> :(
  585. # [13:49] <kevindougans> i hate ie8.
  586. # [13:50] <carlobruno> it's doesn't work in chroome too
  587. # [13:50] <carlobruno> chrome
  588. # [13:51] <carlobruno> obviously the container video z-index is set to -1
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  595. # [13:56] * B3JesusHChrist is now known as B3Jesus
  596. # [13:58] <carlobruno> i mange to fix man
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  598. # [13:58] <carlobruno> just to let you know
  599. # [13:58] <carlobruno> http://maxmorgandesign.com/fix_youtube_iframe_overlay_and_z_index_issues/
  600. # [13:58] <carlobruno> thanks anyway
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  602. # [13:58] <carlobruno> ;)
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  652. # [15:23] <ParanoidGal> Any had any experience of adding http expires to static sites?
  653. # [15:23] <ParanoidGal> Have to admit have no idea how to do it!
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  664. # [15:32] <natrixnatrix89> how did they achieve the effect with cutout horizontal rulers: http://adwards.lv/
  665. # [15:32] <natrixnatrix89> I mean it isn't js, I can't find it in css, and also in html.. then how..
  666. # [15:32] <Jon47> ParanoidGal it's a setting in your webserver
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  679. # [15:58] <mokush> natrixnatrix89: seems that the white outline is created using a white border, not bg color
  680. # [15:58] <pandeiro> i need help centering an element with JS onorientationchange (mobile browser event) if anyone's got any idea. problem is that neither window.innerWidth|Height nor document.documentElement.clientWidth|Height are updated until after the event fires.
  681. # [15:58] <mokush> natrixnatrix89: and every element inside has a bg color. except for the ones cut-out
  682. # [15:59] <mokush> pandeiro: you could center it with CSS, by setting a class on it onorientationchange
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  685. # [16:01] <soee> hi, can you teel me hwo can i set meta tag Expires so it can be validated by w3cvalidator when using html doctype?
  686. # [16:01] <pandeiro> mokush: can i vertically center an element with css?
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  688. # [16:02] <mokush> pandeiro: does it have a fixed height? if you so you can use the top:50% + 1/2 negative margin trick. if not: http://css-tricks.com/snippets/css/center-div-with-dynamic-height/
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  722. # [16:55] <JonathanNeal> hi
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  726. # [17:07] <paul_irish> chriseppstein: got a sass 3.2 preview that could be featured on a top 3 webdesign site? public facing something article something?
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  728. # [17:07] <chriseppstein> hold on. I'm on a conf call
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  739. # [17:16] <bendman> are Workers considered html 5 features? not that it matters, more so I don't sound like an idiot when talking about them.
  740. # [17:16] <divya> everything is html5 until they are not
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  743. # [17:17] <bendman> deep. I think therefore I am html5 (unless otherwise specified in the spec) o_O
  744. # [17:17] <divya> totally.
  745. # [17:17] * TheVenetianMask is now known as gliese581
  746. # [17:17] <divya> as long as you dont call flash html5
  747. # [17:17] <divya> you should be good.
  748. # [17:17] <bendman> wouldn't dream of it
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  780. # [17:42] <chriseppstein> paul_irish: We don't have a good blog post on that yet. but I could write one. what's the timeline
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  784. # [17:43] <Wilto> WHO SUMMONS WILTO. Hi guys.
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  786. # [17:43] <paul_irish> Wilto: i was thinking a preview of the new stuff in sass would be good for your "thign"
  787. # [17:43] <paul_irish> "thing"
  788. # [17:43] <paul_irish> and chriseppstein is here and can help with taht
  789. # [17:43] <Wilto> I also think that would be sweet. For “things.”
  790. # [17:43] <paul_irish> TYPING SKILLS. >:|
  791. # [17:44] <Wilto> caniuse typing
  792. # [17:44] <divya> whats catastrophically different in 3.2?
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  794. # [17:45] <Wilto> Anyway, yes. Hit me with some _vital deets_.
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  799. # [17:46] <chriseppstein> hi
  800. # [17:47] <Wilto> Whatup, chriseppstein.
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  802. # [17:47] <chriseppstein> :) nice to meet you.
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  804. # [17:48] <chriseppstein> we've got a bunch of new features in sass 3.2 coming out. some are built. some are decided on. some are underconsideration
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  806. # [17:49] <divya> chriseppstein: where do I look for them on github?
  807. # [17:49] <chriseppstein> here's some of them in use to make animations nice: https://gist.github.com/1943798
  808. # [17:50] <chriseppstein> here's an example of our new "placeholder" selectors: https://gist.github.com/1562442
  809. # [17:50] <chriseppstein> here's more on mixin content blocks: https://gist.github.com/1215856
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  811. # [17:51] <chriseppstein> we're also considering a new syntax for mixin includes:
  812. # [17:51] <chriseppstein> +my-mixin: arg1, arg2, arg3;
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  816. # [17:52] <divya> chriseppstein: do you mean line no. 26 in https://gist.github.com/1562442 ?
  817. # [17:52] <divya> did that not already exist?
  818. # [17:52] <chriseppstein> we're going to expose the & selector to SassScript which will make it easier to build selectors where the full nesting context is not quite what you need
  819. # [17:53] <chriseppstein> divya: the % makes a selector a placeholder -- I thought you were in the loop on that
  820. # [17:53] <divya> ohhh
  821. # [17:53] <divya> sorry i didnt see the %
  822. # [17:53] <divya> the silent placeholder selector. right.
  823. # [17:53] <chriseppstein> bad syntax highlighter doesn't know about new syntax yet :P
  824. # [17:53] <divya> chriseppstein: I am very much against +my-mixin idea.
  825. # [17:53] <Wilto> Pretty badass stuff.
  826. # [17:54] <chriseppstein> divya: why
  827. # [17:54] <divya> it is against how everything else in scss is :(
  828. # [17:54] <divya> everything is @extend @import @for
  829. # [17:54] <divya> @if
  830. # [17:54] <divya> now suddenly it is +
  831. # [17:54] <divya> why?
  832. # [17:54] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@207.239.114.206) (Quit: tantek)
  833. # [17:54] <chriseppstein> because mixins are very common. I think sugar for @include and @extend are needed.
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  835. # [17:55] <chriseppstein> we would not deprecate their full forms
  836. # [17:55] <divya> typing 5 letters is too much?
  837. # [17:55] <divya> might as well use white-space language then.
  838. # [17:55] <Wilto> blasphemy
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  840. # [17:55] <chriseppstein> I'll let you and paul argue
  841. # [17:55] <chriseppstein> he loves the idea
  842. # [17:55] <divya> what about you?
  843. # [17:55] <divya> personally?
  844. # [17:56] <chriseppstein> gonna get my popcorn
  845. # [17:56] * Joins: Taftse (~Taftse@unaffiliated/taftse)
  846. # [17:56] <divya> or nex3?
  847. # [17:56] <chriseppstein> What about us?
  848. # [17:56] <divya> whats your views on it
  849. # [17:57] <divya> i very much like @content.
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  851. # [17:57] <chriseppstein> I'm losing faith that the w3c will ever adopt our syntax. Since even you seem opposed. so why all the false pretense
  852. # [17:57] <divya> false pretense of what?
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  854. # [17:57] <chriseppstein> about being parser compatible
  855. # [17:58] <divya> that was the least of my concern.
  856. # [17:58] <chriseppstein> that was our main motivation :)
  857. # [17:58] <divya> only concern is consistency in how people use the language.
  858. # [17:58] <divya> + and @include in scss would be confusing.
  859. # [17:58] <chriseppstein> consistency is about perspective
  860. # [17:58] <divya> ?
  861. # [17:58] <chriseppstein> +border-radius: 5px;
  862. # [17:58] <chriseppstein> is more consistent than @include border-radius(5px);
  863. # [17:59] <divya> how is it consistent?
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  865. # [17:59] <chriseppstein> it's consistent with properties.
  866. # [17:59] <divya> yeah but a mixin does more than properties
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  868. # [17:59] <chriseppstein> yes. so that's why it's marked with +
  869. # [17:59] <divya> it can manipulate incoming data
  870. # [17:59] <divya> and then output something or nothing.
  871. # [17:59] <divya> or add more child selectors
  872. # [17:59] <divya> it is not quite the same.
  873. # [17:59] <chriseppstein> :) I invented them
  874. # [18:00] <chriseppstein> we started with -s-border-radius: 5px;
  875. # [18:00] <chriseppstein> as sugar for calling the border-radius mixin
  876. # [18:01] <divya> waa
  877. # [18:01] <chriseppstein> but didn't end up liking it
  878. # [18:01] <divya> okay.
  879. # [18:01] <divya> no way.
  880. # [18:01] <divya> it indicates nothing to what happens within.
  881. # [18:01] <divya> or if there is even a within.
  882. # [18:01] <chriseppstein> exactly
  883. # [18:01] <chriseppstein> much of this is being driving by vendor prefixes tho
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  886. # [18:02] <chriseppstein> people don't want to type @include to mean expand this
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  888. # [18:02] <divya> was there a poll on that chriseppstein?
  889. # [18:02] <divya> because you could easily use sass to use the + lingo?
  890. # [18:02] <divya> (or i am wrong about that).
  891. # [18:02] <chriseppstein> a poll on what
  892. # [18:03] <divya> that people dont want to type @include to mean expand this.
  893. # [18:03] <chriseppstein> always. we've diverged from the initial conversation. maybe we should wrap that up and then come back to this
  894. # [18:03] <divya> its been there for a long time, and I havent heard any grumblings about it, in the mailing list or on twitter.
  895. # [18:03] <divya> given it was replacing + sign to begin with.
  896. # [18:03] <chriseppstein> Wilto, paul_irish so what are you guys hoping to accomplish here?
  897. # [18:05] * Joins: Lightheaded (~lighthead@195.222.6.16)
  898. # [18:05] <Wilto> Oh, I’m just doing some curation and tweetin’ for A List Apart. This stuff sounds pretty awesome, so I figured I’d point it out to The Users.
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  900. # [18:05] <Wilto> chriseppstein: That is, if you want this stuff to be… extremely public, at this point.
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  902. # [18:06] <chriseppstein> Cool. Let me talk to @nex3. We'd love to get the word out. but we'd probably stick to implemented stuff or things that we're *very* confident will make in into 3.2
  903. # [18:06] <chriseppstein> are you looking for a guest post or just some help understanding what's coming up
  904. # [18:06] <divya> chriseppstein: is there a mailing list email about this + sugar you are contemplating?
  905. # [18:06] <Wilto> Awesome. If you guys want to put together a blog post of some form or another breakin’ things down, it’s a lot easier when I can point to a single link.
  906. # [18:06] <divya> might be interesting to get people's views on this.
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  909. # [18:07] <Wilto> chriseppstein: Oh, for now I’m just curating things to post to our Twitter account—nothin’ crazy formal.
  910. # [18:07] <chriseppstein> Wilto: wasn't following you on twitter. fixed.
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  912. # [18:07] <chriseppstein> gotcha
  913. # [18:08] <chriseppstein> Will ping you when we have something to share then
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  915. # [18:08] <Wilto> Sounds good, man! And I apologize in advance for my Twitter feed, as always.
  916. # [18:08] <Wilto> Hope you like portmanbros.
  917. # [18:08] <disusered> chiming in late but as a long time sass user who uses scss now i miss + ;) i just use a tab snippet tbh
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  919. # [18:10] <chriseppstein> divya: I've had a lot of people complain to me about @include in scss
  920. # [18:10] <chriseppstein> they say it makes the language feel "heavy"
  921. # [18:11] <divya> not @extend or @for?
  922. # [18:11] <divya> just @include?
  923. # [18:11] <chriseppstein> also @extend
  924. # [18:11] <disusered> i was going to bring up @extend
  925. # [18:11] <disusered> ya
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  928. # [18:11] <chriseppstein> these are core primitives, imo
  929. # [18:11] <divya> how would @extend look like then? %?
  930. # [18:12] <chriseppstein> I don't know. maybe < .foo;
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  933. # [18:12] <divya> i think if there should be sugars, they should be designed for all of the core primitives.
  934. # [18:12] <divya> not just for mixins and not just to solve the use-case of vendor-prefixes
  935. # [18:12] <chriseppstein> I don't see why it has to be all or nothing.
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  938. # [18:13] <divya> because then the syntax divergence will be significant when other cases come into prominence.
  939. # [18:14] <divya> if a diverse number of user-cases are considered to begin with, there could be a more robust sugar.
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  941. # [18:15] <chriseppstein> divya: do you have something specific in mind?
  942. # [18:15] * disusered is now known as carlosantonio
  943. # [18:15] * carlosantonio is now known as carlos_antonio
  944. # [18:15] <chriseppstein> I understand your point in general, but I'm not seeing how it changes things materially
  945. # [18:15] <divya> no which is why i was wondering if this could be broached in a mailing list mail.
  946. # [18:15] <divya> and ask for opinions.
  947. # [18:16] <chriseppstein> We usually have let our ideas bake for a while before we go to that step.
  948. # [18:16] * Quits: Taftse (~Taftse@unaffiliated/taftse) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  949. # [18:16] <divya> and how do you get wider input to this idea then?
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  951. # [18:16] <divya> gist maybe?
  952. # [18:17] <divya> i really think this requires more input than just you or me or paul_irish.
  953. # [18:17] <chriseppstein> so first there the inception of the idea. then we do a lot of what we're doing right now with people
  954. # [18:17] <chriseppstein> then lately we make an issue on the sass issue tracker
  955. # [18:17] <chriseppstein> and open it up for debate
  956. # [18:17] <chriseppstein> and tweet about it and point the ML at it
  957. # [18:17] <divya> yeah i am just curious who are the people who are giving input right now.
  958. # [18:18] <chriseppstein> the people who care can chime in there and get all the nitty gritty mails
  959. # [18:18] <divya> okay how do I get involved in that?
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  961. # [18:18] <chriseppstein> :) I'll make sure you are aware. so far this is not a thing that even @nex3 and I have decided on.
  962. # [18:18] <chriseppstein> asfdlk;la
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  964. # [18:19] <chriseppstein> I mean @nex3 and I have not yet come to a decision
  965. # [18:19] <chriseppstein> we have some doubts.
  966. # [18:19] <chriseppstein> so why bother people if we decide no
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  970. # [18:20] <divya> k
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  972. # [18:21] <chriseppstein> but I'm glad you have thoughts on this. the placeholder syntax was a great improvement on @silent thanks to your pushing on it.
  973. # [18:21] <chriseppstein> you're definitely someone who's opinion we love to get
  974. # [18:21] <chriseppstein> very early on
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  998. # [18:49] <JonathanNeal> hi
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  1002. # [18:52] <csmrfx> join now! http://www.weekendhacker.net/projects/WP307-Dynamic-Ecmascript-Reference-UX
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  1008. # [18:55] <csmrfx> It's called jsdux!
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  1010. # [18:56] <lmatteis> hello all
  1011. # [18:56] <lmatteis> i was wondering where indexedDb stores its data in webkit
  1012. # [18:56] <lmatteis> is it possible to know
  1013. # [18:56] <lmatteis> or is the implementation completely hidden?
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  1017. # [18:57] <csmrfx> as in, filesystem?
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  1019. # [18:58] <csmrfx> These slides are damn boring if javascript disabled http://slides.html5rocks.com/
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  1023. # [19:00] <csmrfx> lmatteis: perhaps you wanted to look in the chromium/Default/databases?
  1024. # [19:01] <Jon47> should pseudo-elements have two colons or one? :before or ::before...?
  1025. # [19:02] <nlogax> :: in css > 2, iirc
  1026. # [19:04] <Jon47> ty
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  1056. # [19:37] <Sisco> [wanted] assistance with html5/css3 mobile website, paid task, query me
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  1064. # [19:46] <divya> chriseppstein: paul_irish how about smthing like this? https://gist.github.com/1995024
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  1066. # [19:47] <divya> (essentially the magic of which property/value gets prefixes needs to be handled by @prefixed
  1067. # [19:47] <divya> (or smthing like that)
  1068. # [19:48] <chriseppstein> would like to know where the w3c is going w.r.t. prefixes after all this kerfuffle
  1069. # [19:48] <divya> the idea is to unprefix asap
  1070. # [19:48] <chriseppstein> sure. but going forward with new things
  1071. # [19:48] <divya> sylvaing is driving that effort pretty much.
  1072. # [19:49] <divya> no chance in process has been suggested.
  1073. # [19:49] <divya> or mroe like
  1074. # [19:49] <divya> has been considered as a solution.
  1075. # [19:49] <chriseppstein> so the resolution was: nothing to see here, just move faster?
  1076. # [19:49] <divya> i think the tentative idea is to get to CR early and often. as far as I know. yeah.
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  1078. # [19:51] <divya> in anycase you would need prefixes for proprietary properties that wont go away ever.
  1079. # [19:51] <chriseppstein> so we're considering giving mixins the ability to read the properties already set in the inclusion scope
  1080. # [19:52] <divya> how would that look like chriseppstein?
  1081. # [19:52] <divya> (sorry I dont understand that sentence).
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  1083. # [19:54] <chriseppstein> if we do it: in a mixin you'd be able to access some functions in sass script like properties(), is-property-set(prop-name), property-value(prop-name)
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  1085. # [19:55] <grantg> paul_irish: the javascript compiler from google does a good job compressing
  1086. # [19:55] <grantg> http://gamecenter.grantgalitz.org/js/gamecenter.js
  1087. # [19:55] <chriseppstein> if we had that compass could buid a mixin @prefixed;
  1088. # [19:55] <grantg> compressed 10 extenal js files into one
  1089. # [19:55] <divya> right and would this is-property-set etc act on @content?
  1090. # [19:55] <grantg> *external
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  1092. # [19:56] <chriseppstein> divya: that mixin would be able to read all the properties and then mutate them. in theory it could do that if @content; was already included.
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  1094. # [19:56] <chriseppstein> always, it's very magical
  1095. # [19:56] <divya> ohh so its more like just in time then?
  1096. # [19:56] <chriseppstein> ya
  1097. # [19:56] <chriseppstein> i'm not sure I like the implicit context
  1098. # [19:57] <divya> yeah just in time sounds too magical intutively for me.
  1099. # [19:57] <chriseppstein> we generally shy away from that much magic
  1100. # [19:57] <divya> it feels hard to debug.
  1101. # [19:57] <chriseppstein> stylus has this feature
  1102. # [19:57] <divya> :////
  1103. # [19:57] <divya> do people like the just-in-time-ness?
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  1105. # [19:57] <chriseppstein> not sure what you mean by that
  1106. # [19:58] <divya> you said stylus has this feature, so I was wondering if it hinders debugging stylus
  1107. # [19:58] <chriseppstein> no people
  1108. # [19:58] <divya> or do people actually enjoy using it.
  1109. # [19:58] <divya> (in stylus)
  1110. # [19:58] <chriseppstein> your the first not nathan person I've talked to it about
  1111. # [19:58] <divya> (if you know)
  1112. # [19:58] <divya> ahh
  1113. # [19:58] <divya> okay
  1114. # [19:58] <divya> :))
  1115. # [19:58] <divya> not nathan person!
  1116. # [19:58] <chriseppstein> ha
  1117. # [19:58] <divya> yeah my view is given this + sugar is for prefix usecase.
  1118. # [19:59] <divya> perhaps it is better off if we solved it with a dedicated @ rule for prefixes.
  1119. # [19:59] <divya> that applies the right prefixes on the right properties and values.
  1120. # [19:59] <chriseppstein> nathan is very opposed to building features into sass that are browser support specific. sass provides primitives for compass to use for this
  1121. # [20:00] <divya> yeah compass is a good place for such things i think.
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  1123. # [20:00] <divya> like you said, if there could be a way to parse the css declaration passed into a mixin, and construct the right prefixes.
  1124. # [20:00] <divya> that would be sufficient in my view.
  1125. # [20:01] <chriseppstein> @include prefixed { /* content to be prefixed */ }
  1126. # [20:01] <chriseppstein> ?
  1127. # [20:01] <divya> oo that sounds good too!
  1128. # [20:01] <divya> yeah
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  1132. # [20:04] <chriseppstein> btw, the + sugar for mixins would not work with mixin content
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  1135. # [20:04] <divya> yeah i know.
  1136. # [20:04] <chriseppstein> the full form would be required in that case
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  1138. # [20:04] <chriseppstein> otherwise there are parser ambiguities
  1139. # [20:04] <divya> yep.
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  1142. # [20:04] <divya> but this @include prefixed {}
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  1144. # [20:04] <divya> i wonder if people would pass an entire stylesheet there.
  1145. # [20:05] <divya> making it almost redundant.
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  1147. # [20:05] <chriseppstein> @include prefixed { @import "stylesheet"; }
  1148. # [20:05] <chriseppstein> :)
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  1150. # [20:05] <divya> :)))))
  1151. # [20:05] <divya> NOW YOU ARE TALKINGS
  1152. # [20:05] <sgalineau> divya, isn't that what people do by 'future-proofing' everything anyway?
  1153. # [20:05] <chriseppstein> sgalineau: hello :)
  1154. # [20:05] <divya> sgalineau: yeahhh :( i don't like it.
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  1156. # [20:06] <divya> but at least in compass you can set which prefixes you want.
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  1158. # [20:06] <sgalineau> chriseppstein: hello!
  1159. # [20:06] <divya> sgalineau: but yeah I think the default option should not include the unprefixed.
  1160. # [20:06] <divya> but many disagree.
  1161. # [20:06] <chriseppstein> and upgrading a stable release is _very_ low risk
  1162. # [20:06] <chriseppstein> so revisiting is not a huge chore.
  1163. # [20:07] <divya> chriseppstein: i think @include prefixed would remove the burden of choice of prefix from the dev to the framework.
  1164. # [20:07] <divya> which is where I think it belongs.
  1165. # [20:07] <chriseppstein> yes. while still technically preserving choice in one-off situations..
  1166. # [20:08] <chriseppstein> I agree. this is totally a framework concern
  1167. # [20:08] <sgalineau> the thing rattling in my head lately has been whether, once the editor is confident the spec is good enough, we should require browsers to implement both prefixed and unprefixed. so the latter would become an engine-targeting bug-fixing/workaround mechanism if/when needed.
  1168. # [20:08] <sgalineau> though I don't think it's any less controversial than any other proposal on hand....
  1169. # [20:09] <chriseppstein> sgalineau: I need @supports
  1170. # [20:09] <chriseppstein> I need it so bad
  1171. # [20:09] <divya> haha
  1172. # [20:09] <sgalineau> lol
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  1174. # [20:09] <chriseppstein> I wrote a blog post on this 2 years ago
  1175. # [20:09] <sgalineau> 2 years? is that it?
  1176. # [20:09] <divya> david barton's spec is there.
  1177. # [20:09] <divya> yet i think there are more vital concerns at this moment
  1178. # [20:09] <chriseppstein> hahah. well I only started getting into css about 3 years ago
  1179. # [20:09] <divya> like pushing for unprefixed everything.
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  1181. # [20:11] <chriseppstein> http://chriseppstein.github.com/blog/2009/10/19/css-unsupported-directive/
  1182. # [20:11] <sgalineau> oh man, you only started 3 years ago? So there is someone out there who started *after* tabatkins?
  1183. # [20:11] <sgalineau> you kids....
  1184. # [20:11] <JonathanNeal> hi
  1185. # [20:11] <chriseppstein> no I started learning CSS in 2000
  1186. # [20:11] <sgalineau> pfew
  1187. # [20:12] <chriseppstein> but I got involved with sass & made compass about 3.5 years ago
  1188. # [20:12] <sgalineau> aaah
  1189. # [20:12] <sgalineau> respect btw
  1190. # [20:12] <sgalineau> I am not worthy
  1191. # [20:12] <chriseppstein> wha
  1192. # [20:13] * sgalineau will make hot shit on github when he grows up
  1193. # [20:13] <chriseppstein> hehe. Just me capitalizing on a broken w3c group :P
  1194. # [20:14] <chriseppstein> I wish I had more time to dedicate to this stuff
  1195. # [20:14] <sgalineau> i don't think it's broken. it's changed a lot in a few years, and for the good. but lots to do.
  1196. # [20:14] <chriseppstein> agree
  1197. # [20:15] <sgalineau> to be quite honest, i think a lot of standardization work looks slow because the landscape has changed and accelerated so much
  1198. # [20:17] <StoneCypher> another big part of the appearance is that html5 is like ten times the delta size of previous htmls
  1199. # [20:18] <StoneCypher> the leap from 4 -> 5 is larger than the leap from 2 -> 4
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  1201. # [20:19] <sgalineau> likewise, CSS2.1 is 15 times bigger than the next biggest module and it sucked the time out of the WG for quite a bit of time. same period that animations, transitions, transforms et al. were appearing, in fact.
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  1205. # [20:20] <bourbaki> hidiho
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  1211. # [20:21] <bourbaki> what is a good ecosystem for html5, server and ide wise, *x prefered
  1212. # [20:22] <tw2113> wouldn't it be mostly in the browser? :P
  1213. # [20:22] <bourbaki> is it?
  1214. # [20:22] <bourbaki> i thought there was a lot of stuff going on in the background
  1215. # [20:23] <bourbaki> like a websocket server or some server that holds data for your sessions etc
  1216. # [20:23] <tw2113> some may, but a lot of it is client side as far as i know :D
  1217. # [20:23] <bourbaki> i intended to write a multiplayer game, card game
  1218. # [20:23] <bourbaki> or board game
  1219. # [20:24] <ard_> I'm looking for something like brunch (project scaffolding tool), but without coffee
  1220. # [20:24] <ard_> any advice?
  1221. # [20:24] <ard_> :)
  1222. # [20:24] <bourbaki> i just dont want to hack it in several different places, but preferably a single ide
  1223. # [20:24] <bourbaki> ard_: how about brunch with champane ;)?
  1224. # [20:25] <bourbaki> champagne
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  1227. # [20:25] <ard_> bourbaki: sounds good to me!;)
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  1232. # [20:33] <divya> chriseppstein: I wonder if —prefixed could be an option while compiling
  1233. # [20:33] <divya> or is it too ambiguous.
  1234. # [20:34] <chriseppstein> divya: in compass or sass?
  1235. # [20:34] <divya> chriseppstein: dunno! compass first?
  1236. # [20:35] <chriseppstein> initial reaction is no
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  1238. # [20:35] <chriseppstein> i try to keep as much out of the CLI as I can. many of compass's users don't use the CLI
  1239. # [20:36] <divya> chriseppstein: if its compass it could also be in config.rb no
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  1241. # [20:38] <chriseppstein> config == cli basically
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  1243. # [20:38] <divya> yeah assuming its enabled by default.
  1244. # [20:38] <divya> >_>
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  1248. # [20:41] <chriseppstein> divya: it seems like a good default once the sass syntax has enough features to make it possible
  1249. # [20:41] <chriseppstein> need to make baby steps to get there
  1250. # [20:42] <divya> yeah
  1251. # [20:42] <divya> i suppose not yet.
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  1254. # [20:43] <chriseppstein> if @include prefixed { @import "screen"; } worked, compass could wrap stylesheets that it compiles, but there are many uses of compass where compass isn't the framework, and therefore compass can't force that option
  1255. # [20:43] <divya> yeah
  1256. # [20:43] <chriseppstein> compass has a dual framework/library function
  1257. # [20:44] <divya> yep
  1258. # [20:44] <divya> i use it sometimes as either/or
  1259. # [20:44] <chriseppstein> so this is ok for compass the framework but not compass the library. but this nuance would be missed by most.
  1260. # [20:45] <chriseppstein> So I would probably only do this if I broke compass into sep projects
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  1269. # [20:52] <bendman> is there a channel in which to discuss good music to listen to whilst coding?
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  1274. # [20:54] <csmrfx> #music
  1275. # [20:58] <JonathanNeal> is there a js scss parser?
  1276. # [21:00] <csmrfx> please. dont.
  1277. # [21:00] * Quits: axos411 (~axos@xdsl-78-35-157-225.netcologne.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1278. # [21:00] <csmrfx> unless scss is not a typo
  1279. # [21:01] <tw2113> ?g scss
  1280. # [21:01] <bot-t> tw2113, Sass - Syntactically Awesome Stylesheets - http://sass-lang.com/
  1281. # [21:01] <csmrfx> sass parser !== scss
  1282. # [21:01] <tw2113> close enough
  1283. # [21:02] <tw2113> at least in my mind :D
  1284. # [21:02] <csmrfx> scss is also a schme css parser
  1285. # [21:02] <csmrfx> and so on
  1286. # [21:02] <tw2113> bbs
  1287. # [21:02] <csmrfx> *scheme
  1288. # [21:02] <JonathanNeal> well, there's sass markup and then scss markup.
  1289. # [21:03] <JonathanNeal> i was wondering if there was scss to css via js, for clientside rendering and for Node.
  1290. # [21:03] * Joins: chovy (~chovy@108-194-42-92.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net)
  1291. # [21:03] <JonathanNeal> One guy had made a Node parser for Sass but it was buggy and he dropped it for his own format.
  1292. # [21:04] <csmrfx> use css for client styles
  1293. # [21:05] <divya> csmrfx: this is for node
  1294. # [21:06] <JonathanNeal> If it works for the client, it will work for Node.
  1295. # [21:06] <csmrfx> divya use css for client styles
  1296. # [21:06] <JonathanNeal> And if it works for the client, it shouldn't be hard to get it going in PHP either.
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  1299. # [21:06] <JonathanNeal> csmrfx: what's your point?
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  1301. # [21:07] <csmrfx> css parsing in browser is madness
  1302. # [21:07] <csmrfx> uh
  1303. # [21:07] <csmrfx> I mean
  1304. # [21:07] <JonathanNeal> csmrfx: okay. it's mad. that's your concern.
  1305. # [21:07] <csmrfx> parsing something into css in client is madness
  1306. # [21:08] <JonathanNeal> Okay.
  1307. # [21:08] * Quits: trumpetmic (~trumpetmi@c-107-2-155-157.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1308. # [21:08] <JonathanNeal> Any other concerns, other than you believe it is mentally ill?
  1309. # [21:09] * Quits: kevindougans (~kevindoug@106.Red-213-96-89.staticIP.rima-tde.net) (Quit: kevindougans)
  1310. # [21:09] <csmrfx> *know*
  1311. # [21:09] * Joins: trumpetmic (~trumpetmi@c-107-2-155-157.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  1312. # [21:09] <JonathanNeal> csmrfx: how do you know?
  1313. # [21:11] * Joins: dgathright (~dgathrigh@nat/yahoo/x-xnmesihrjxwpould)
  1314. # [21:11] <csmrfx> from all the noobs asking stupid q's about doing the wrong thins in wrong places?
  1315. # [21:11] <JonathanNeal> Sometimes I think it's a good idea, if not just because I've heard talk like this before.
  1316. # [21:11] * Quits: pexite (~pexite@hyp-p-106.pabianice.msk.pl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1317. # [21:11] <JonathanNeal> Quantify your disagreements, especially when you want to jump in against something when I asked if it already existed.
  1318. # [21:12] <csmrfx> theres no disagreement
  1319. # [21:12] * Joins: sephr (~Eli@unaffiliated/sephr)
  1320. # [21:12] <csmrfx> you might as well use a bus for transporting gasoline or something
  1321. # [21:12] * Quits: thatryan (~thatryan@c-24-4-167-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving...)
  1322. # [21:13] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-68-203-0-108.austin.res.rr.com)
  1323. # [21:13] <csmrfx> a futile enterprise thats probably not gonna end well for the driver
  1324. # [21:14] <JonathanNeal> csmrfx: so it's also bad because you made a metaphor.
  1325. # [21:14] <csmrfx> less bad than less
  1326. # [21:14] <sgalineau> JonathanNeal, if you're asking about CSS parsers in JS, yes it's been done
  1327. # [21:14] <JonathanNeal> sgalineau: I've seen http://glazman.org/JSCSSP/
  1328. # [21:15] <JonathanNeal> I am looking for something like this for scss.
  1329. # [21:15] <sgalineau> that's the best one I know
  1330. # [21:15] <JonathanNeal> Me too.
  1331. # [21:15] <csmrfx> I dont think youre looking very hard
  1332. # [21:15] <sgalineau> in terms of correctness and also code readability
  1333. # [21:15] <sgalineau> csmrfx, thanks. This kind of feedback really matters to me.
  1334. # [21:16] <JonathanNeal> csmrfx: you are being very dissenting and very cryptic.
  1335. # [21:16] <csmrfx> sgalineau: great, cause its for JonathanNeal
  1336. # [21:16] <JonathanNeal> when you make metaphors it is really not helping me. I think you're trying to communicate something to me, but it's so negative, I'm having trouble understanding you.
  1337. # [21:17] <csmrfx> imo last thing we need is another js nerd standing between ppl and their site
  1338. # [21:17] <sgalineau> same difference. I don't like troll-like commentary
  1339. # [21:17] <sgalineau> the last thing we need is context-free generalities
  1340. # [21:17] <csmrfx> boohoo
  1341. # [21:17] <JonathanNeal> csmrfx: what's bothering you? i didn't mean to make you mad.
  1342. # [21:18] * Quits: gavinsmit (~gavinsmit@CPEe05fb90cc8fb-CM00222ddfdbcd.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  1343. # [21:18] <sgalineau> anyway. no feeding the troll. JSCSSP is a very good base imo.
  1344. # [21:18] * Joins: louisremi (~louisremi@mon69-3-87-90-54-237.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr)
  1345. # [21:19] <csmrfx> I think I met this lady, who was a troll, prolly your mom
  1346. # [21:19] <csmrfx> too
  1347. # [21:19] * Joins: ColKurtz (~ColKurtz@216.86.217.155)
  1348. # [21:20] <csmrfx> css needs variables but still, client side css is just simply for stupid developers
  1349. # [21:20] <sgalineau> well, at least now we know what his opinion is worth
  1350. # [21:20] <csmrfx> yeah, and your mom knows, too
  1351. # [21:20] * Quits: ciro_nunes (c8ba7e3a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.200.186.126.58) (Quit: Page closed)
  1352. # [21:21] <sgalineau> with comebacks like that I suspect the man may be an expert on stupid developers....
  1353. # [21:21] <csmrfx> heh I mean, js parsed client side css dsl
  1354. # [21:22] <csmrfx> sgalineau: and with constant attacks on my person instead of my arguments, I suspect this one aint man at all...
  1355. # [21:22] <sgalineau> oh, you call those arguments? I rest my case.
  1356. # [21:23] <csmrfx> inalienable truths, in fact
  1357. # [21:23] <sgalineau> LOL
  1358. # [21:23] <csmrfx> so far you got nothing but "you are a troll" ad hominems
  1359. # [21:23] <sgalineau> ok that was funny
  1360. # [21:24] <csmrfx> yes, you clearly need to get outside more
  1361. # [21:24] <sgalineau> as opposed to 'the last thing we need is X because it's for stupid developers' and 'your mom' ?
  1362. # [21:24] <sgalineau> anyway.
  1363. # [21:24] <csmrfx> as opposed to you are obnoxious to communicate with so you are ignored
  1364. # [21:24] <sgalineau> JonathanNeal, say more about scss
  1365. # [21:25] * Quits: caasiHuang (~caasiHuan@59-126-203-62.HINET-IP.hinet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1366. # [21:25] <JonathanNeal> it's gonna be good. no hard feelings, csmrfx.
  1367. # [21:25] <csmrfx> lol
  1368. # [21:26] <csmrfx> yep, inflict unnecessary memory use, loading times and slower loading on your users "cayse iz kewl dis JohnsOwnCssSystyem"
  1369. # [21:27] <gcpantaz_> http://cache.blippitt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/flamewar.jpg
  1370. # [21:27] <csmrfx> have fun dealing with all the extra edge cases
  1371. # [21:27] <csmrfx> enjoy the extra errors in less common browsers
  1372. # [21:27] * Joins: venom00 (~venom00@unaffiliated/venom00)
  1373. # [21:27] <csmrfx> and so on
  1374. # [21:27] <csmrfx> go ahead
  1375. # [21:27] <csmrfx> be a noob
  1376. # [21:27] <JonathanNeal> I think I can do it and not be a noob. I'll do my best.
  1377. # [21:28] <JonathanNeal> And if I fail, I will have lost time, energy, and will have gained knowledge and experience.
  1378. # [21:28] <csmrfx> I bet you going to re-implement the DOM rendering in your browser next
  1379. # [21:28] * Quits: insin (~insin@host86-140-181-233.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  1380. # [21:29] <JonathanNeal> csmrfx: actually I was thinking of doing something like that, yes. I want contenteditable controls so that I can make certain contenteditable areas only allow certain html.
  1381. # [21:29] * Quits: Evanescence (~Evanescen@60.183.193.11) (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/)
  1382. # [21:29] <csmrfx> so you render the html with a js library into canvas?
  1383. # [21:29] <csmrfx> *couMyghAss*
  1384. # [21:29] <JonathanNeal> wouldn't that be nice? To give people the power to edit their online documents and still have control over the general flow of elements?
  1385. # [21:29] <csmrfx> no, that would be useless
  1386. # [21:29] <csmrfx> it's called: retarded.
  1387. # [21:30] <JonathanNeal> Wordpress extracts this into a separate page, it would be great to make the experience more seamless.
  1388. # [21:30] * Joins: odinswand (~odinswand@27-32-234-171.static.tpgi.com.au)
  1389. # [21:30] <csmrfx> learn to do something useful in a practical manner
  1390. # [21:31] <JonathanNeal> I did that already, there must be more.
  1391. # [21:31] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  1392. # [21:31] <JonathanNeal> What technology do you like to use, csmrfx?
  1393. # [21:31] <Wilto> Wow, friendly crowd in this joint.
  1394. # [21:31] <JonathanNeal> Particularly, web / front-end / html / css / js related?
  1395. # [21:32] <sgalineau> Wilto, isn't it? I don't come here often and I think it'll be even less frequent now :)
  1396. # [21:33] <Wilto> sgalineau: http://wil.to/_/haters.gif
  1397. # [21:34] * Quits: deasy (~deasy@109.89.87.172) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1398. # [21:34] <csmrfx> JonathanNeal: speaking of CSS? You build and compress it and serve.
  1399. # [21:34] <JonathanNeal> :D
  1400. # [21:34] <csmrfx> Me, I can write CSS just fine
  1401. # [21:34] * Quits: odinswand (~odinswand@27-32-234-171.static.tpgi.com.au) (Client Quit)
  1402. # [21:34] <JonathanNeal> Do you use any CSS libraries?
  1403. # [21:34] <csmrfx> sass etc are cute but useless
  1404. # [21:34] * Joins: deasy (~deasy@109.89.87.172)
  1405. # [21:34] <csmrfx> nothing a 5 dollar editor wont do
  1406. # [21:35] * Joins: kadiks (~kadiks@APuteaux-652-1-185-33.w82-124.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  1407. # [21:35] <csmrfx> whats a "CSS library"?
  1408. # [21:35] <JonathanNeal> Maybe they are cute but useless. I think they are really interesting and worth putting more focus, time and energy into.
  1409. # [21:35] <sgalineau> Wilto, hey I'd love some dance moves and explosions....far cry from that
  1410. # [21:36] <JonathanNeal> Like twitter bootstrap, reset, normalize, etc.
  1411. # [21:36] <csmrfx> those are libraries
  1412. # [21:36] <csmrfx> does not answer the question "What is a CSS library"?
  1413. # [21:36] <csmrfx> bunch of CSS?
  1414. # [21:37] * Quits: dhruvasagar (~dhruvasag@65.98.79.137) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
  1415. # [21:37] * Quits: smplstk (~smplstk@li239-175.members.linode.com) (Quit: byes!)
  1416. # [21:37] * Joins: smplstk_ (~smplstk@li239-175.members.linode.com)
  1417. # [21:37] <JonathanNeal> They are something, I was calling them libraries because they contained a collection of css to be used and referenced.
  1418. # [21:37] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@145.171-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: nn)
  1419. # [21:37] <Jon47> it's as good a word as any
  1420. # [21:37] * Quits: WebDragon (~webdragon@c-68-82-181-85.hsd1.de.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  1421. # [21:37] * smplstk_ is now known as smplstk
  1422. # [21:37] <csmrfx> I was asking what does he mean with it? I'm finding hard time understanding what it might be
  1423. # [21:37] <Wilto> Eh, sure, csmrfx nailed it. Nobody has any legitimate use for SASS and the like, and lots of people are like super wrong. Case closed.
  1424. # [21:37] <JonathanNeal> perhaps normalize is more of a boilerplate. nomenclature aside, do you understand what I'm asking?
  1425. # [21:38] <csmrfx> People use crack too, doesn't make it a reasonable thing to do
  1426. # [21:38] * Quits: progrock (~bob@173.255.231.30) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  1427. # [21:38] <gcpantaz_> The end.
  1428. # [21:38] <JonathanNeal> I'm not using crack, but I use normalize a lot. Do you?
  1429. # [21:38] * Joins: dhruvasagar (~dhruvasag@65.98.79.137)
  1430. # [21:38] <csmrfx> Go ahead, re-implement http again for all you like, but it is equivalent to using crack
  1431. # [21:38] <Wilto> I use the former rather than the latter, actually.
  1432. # [21:38] * Joins: progrock (~bob@173.255.231.30)
  1433. # [21:38] <JonathanNeal> I also do not wish to re-implement http again, yet.
  1434. # [21:38] * Quits: theresaanna (~root@li99-144.members.linode.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1435. # [21:38] <gcpantaz_> Please compare Sass to fascism on your way out.
  1436. # [21:38] <csmrfx> it's prevailing implementation is far superior to *anything* you can come up with
  1437. # [21:39] <Wilto> I heard Sass killed a guy.
  1438. # [21:39] <csmrfx> in deed
  1439. # [21:39] <csmrfx> Case closed.
  1440. # [21:39] * Joins: theresaanna (~root@li99-144.members.linode.com)
  1441. # [21:39] <Jon47> sass is functionally equivalent to AIDS
  1442. # [21:39] <csmrfx> Sass is reasonable. Less is not.
  1443. # [21:39] <Wilto> Sass once kicked my dog.
  1444. # [21:39] * Quits: robhawkes (~robhawkes@199.115.243.150) (Quit: Leaving...)
  1445. # [21:39] * Joins: WebDragon (~webdragon@c-68-82-181-85.hsd1.de.comcast.net)
  1446. # [21:39] <sgalineau> People use crack. Crack is harmful. This proves anything I say to be true. FACT.
  1447. # [21:39] <Jon47> sass drinks milk right out of hte carton
  1448. # [21:39] <Wilto> Oh, don’t even get me started on Less. You should see what Less did on the hood of my car.
  1449. # [21:39] <JonathanNeal> I really want to know what technology csmrfx likes. The sarcasm isn't helping :|
  1450. # [21:39] <csmrfx> Using whatever dsl you like for *building* whatever layer you like is fine, noob-wannabe.
  1451. # [21:40] <csmrfx> Re-implementing CSS rendering is not.
  1452. # [21:40] * csmrfx pats noob on the cheek lovingly.
  1453. # [21:40] <JonathanNeal> I understand. What are examples of things you do like?
  1454. # [21:41] <chriseppstein> JonathanNeal: there are a couple scss compilers for js
  1455. # [21:41] <csmrfx> well I like pure CSS and pure javascript, but do have to use things like jquery.
  1456. # [21:41] <chriseppstein> JonathanNeal: not sure how good they are
  1457. # [21:41] <JonathanNeal> chriseppstein: that's wonderful, would you mind sharing the links to those projects?
  1458. # [21:42] <JonathanNeal> csmrfx: nifty, what's a site you've worked on?
  1459. # [21:42] * Joins: insin (~insin@host31-53-14-198.range31-53.btcentralplus.com)
  1460. # [21:42] <JonathanNeal> I think knowing what you like will help be better understand what you're saying. If you don't mind sharing.
  1461. # [21:42] <csmrfx> several hundred
  1462. # [21:42] <JonathanNeal> several hundred dot com, or did you mean you've written several hundred websites?
  1463. # [21:42] <csmrfx> front-ends mostly
  1464. # [21:43] <chriseppstein> csmrfx: have you used sass?
  1465. # [21:43] <JonathanNeal> well, we can take the discussion to PM. Share some of your work with me.
  1466. # [21:43] <csmrfx> chriseppstein: yes, but not in a comm. project
  1467. # [21:43] <csmrfx> JonathanNeal: whats this, hold my hand?
  1468. # [21:43] <chriseppstein> comm?
  1469. # [21:44] <csmrfx> If you want to share work, google dynamic ecmascript ux and join
  1470. # [21:44] <csmrfx> chriseppstein: commercial
  1471. # [21:44] <chriseppstein> JonathanNeal: https://github.com/visionmedia/sass.js (probably not maintained now -- since tj is all about stylus)
  1472. # [21:45] <chriseppstein> JonathanNeal: https://github.com/bmavity/scss-js
  1473. # [21:46] <JonathanNeal> chriseppstein: cool, i will look into bmavity's. visionmedia isn't really supporting theirs anymore.
  1474. # [21:46] <JonathanNeal> i spent a lot of time checking that one out, hoping to get it to work with css and scss as well as sass. smplstk helped me.
  1475. # [21:47] * Joins: prudnikov (~prudnikov@20.60.broadband7.iol.cz)
  1476. # [21:47] <JonathanNeal> thank you for pointing me to bmavitys!
  1477. # [21:48] * Joins: pexite (~pexite@hyp-p-106.pabianice.msk.pl)
  1478. # [21:48] <smplstk> chriseppstein: sass.js hasn't been updated in over a year
  1479. # [21:49] <chriseppstein> csmrfx: when did you try sass last?
  1480. # [21:49] * gcpantaz_ is now known as gcpantazis
  1481. # [21:49] <csmrfx> 2k9 perhaps
  1482. # [21:49] <csmrfx> chriseppstein: why do you asl
  1483. # [21:49] <chriseppstein> smplstk: ya. that jives with the fact that I've not seen the dev tweeting lately
  1484. # [21:49] <csmrfx> *ask
  1485. # [21:50] <chriseppstein> csmrfx: sass has changed a lot since then
  1486. # [21:50] <csmrfx> even if it has, you still missed the point, evidently
  1487. # [21:50] <chriseppstein> did I
  1488. # [21:50] <smplstk> yeah - sass.js isn't terribly polished as a result.
  1489. # [21:50] <csmrfx> better scroll up and reread
  1490. # [21:50] * Joins: pexite_ (~pexite@hyp-p-106.pabianice.msk.pl)
  1491. # [21:50] <chriseppstein> i read
  1492. # [21:51] <csmrfx> It was the trolls here stomping on sass, not me
  1493. # [21:51] <Wilto> …
  1494. # [21:51] <csmrfx> Wilto and sgalineau
  1495. # [21:51] <smplstk> trolls?
  1496. # [21:51] <Wilto> smplstk: You know me, bro.
  1497. # [21:51] <sgalineau> where did Wilto or I stomp on sass?
  1498. # [21:51] <smplstk> Wilto ain't no troll, bro
  1499. # [21:51] <Wilto> “Broll.”
  1500. # [21:51] <sgalineau> lol
  1501. # [21:52] <csmrfx> well, at least his mode was uninhibited, pure, puerile trollism just now, smplstk
  1502. # [21:52] <sgalineau> "...and that's how the brollywood channel was born"
  1503. # [21:52] <smplstk> Don't troll me bro
  1504. # [21:53] * Quits: pexite_ (~pexite@hyp-p-106.pabianice.msk.pl) (Client Quit)
  1505. # [21:53] <JonathanNeal> Creating a solid JavaScript solution to convert SCSS to CSS would be grand. visionmedia's proof of concept has really inspired me to see that happen. It looks like bmavity has been keeping the project alive for a good while.
  1506. # [21:53] <chriseppstein> I don't know. I read and can't be bothered to understand
  1507. # [21:53] <csmrfx> I guess you'd need to understand how browsers work, eh
  1508. # [21:53] <chriseppstein> anyways. My feeling is that you shouldn't compile scss to js in a browser.
  1509. # [21:53] <chriseppstein> *to css with js
  1510. # [21:54] <sgalineau> JonathanNeal, glad to hear it. looking forward to hearing more!
  1511. # [21:54] <chriseppstein> but a js implementation of scss for node would be great
  1512. # [21:54] <sgalineau> +1
  1513. # [21:54] <csmrfx> writing a dsl for CSS should be trivial, even in javascript
  1514. # [21:54] <JonathanNeal> chriseppstein: for localhost work on a apache/php stack or in a shared server environment I could see huge advantages to being able to test your sass live with a clientside handler.
  1515. # [21:54] <csmrfx> using it on client sied would make you trivial
  1516. # [21:54] <JonathanNeal> And then to see that translated into something for Node would be great.
  1517. # [21:55] <chriseppstein> JonathanNeal: it would make certain aspects of dev simpler certainly. as long as it doesn't bleed into production. but it does.
  1518. # [21:55] <JonathanNeal> chriseppstein: it would bleed into production.
  1519. # [21:55] <chriseppstein> I'd rather see a sass compilation as a service
  1520. # [21:56] <chriseppstein> so that compile is on a server and cached
  1521. # [21:56] <csmrfx> also CSS doesn't change that much, wtf would you have builds of something static happen client side * millions
  1522. # [21:56] <JonathanNeal> I agree, but I can't deny that some people might use client-side as an easy solution while they wait for something like native parsing in the browser, or, more realistically, css to catch up to the level of power in sass.
  1523. # [21:56] <csmrfx> fek, waste that energy on something cool like computer games or something
  1524. # [21:57] <chriseppstein> but my stance is that browsers should have a standardized sass-like syntax eventually. there is a ton of win there.
  1525. # [21:57] <JonathanNeal> csmrfx: i would, but computer games or something don't interest me like this.
  1526. # [21:57] <csmrfx> it's called CSS3 chriseppstein
  1527. # [21:57] <chriseppstein> wut
  1528. # [21:57] <csmrfx> the syntax
  1529. # [21:57] <JonathanNeal> chriseppstein: i completely agree, i'm talking about building something so that people do something that will make what i built obsolete.
  1530. # [21:58] <chriseppstein> css3 does not have variables, mixins, selector inheritance -- nested selectors are a maybe
  1531. # [21:58] <chriseppstein> variables are a maybe
  1532. # [21:58] <sgalineau> they're maybes that will take some time, too
  1533. # [21:58] <chriseppstein> yep
  1534. # [21:58] <JonathanNeal> In the same way that normalize or html5shiv try to get people to not worry about the older browsers so one day they don't need to worry about normalize or the shiv.
  1535. # [21:59] * Quits: WebDragon (~webdragon@c-68-82-181-85.hsd1.de.comcast.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  1536. # [22:00] <sgalineau> well yeah; a fair amount of things get standardized because they happen in JS a lot. it's not unnatural to start there!
  1537. # [22:00] <JonathanNeal> I think sometimes that without jQuery and Sizzle we might not have querySelector like we do now.
  1538. # [22:00] <sgalineau> though we also have jQuery because the CSSOM is really old and crufty
  1539. # [22:01] <JonathanNeal> Plus, in the process we learn so much, and when we share that, other people build better things on top of it, or apart from it, but it's progress for a better web imo.
  1540. # [22:01] <sgalineau> never mind all the interop quirks
  1541. # [22:01] <sgalineau> definitely
  1542. # [22:01] <csmrfx> I want to build xml parser for xml dialect with ergonomic syntax for human xml input with ocaml, and the ppl at #xml thought it horrible idea too
  1543. # [22:02] <csmrfx> so it might be just opposition to new things
  1544. # [22:02] <JonathanNeal> Well, build it anyway if you think it's a good idea.
  1545. # [22:02] <csmrfx> yes, but still, jQuery removes browser js/DOM quirks without too much overhead
  1546. # [22:03] <sgalineau> true that; if you wait for approval to do something new and different it'll never happen
  1547. # [22:03] <csmrfx> what does client side CSS dsl offer (other than slightly simpler syntax, variables and tons and tons of overhead)
  1548. # [22:03] <JonathanNeal> I was against religion for a long time because of what i had seen religious people do, then I became a Christian. Because of where I was born and how I was raised, I doubt I would have recommited my life if I hadn't first been oposed. So go for it, build your xml parser, csmrfx. I think you're being sarcastic though.
  1549. # [22:04] <sgalineau> on that note: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3124-give-it-five-minutes and I need to head out
  1550. # [22:04] <JonathanNeal> I thought writing an interpreter would be easier than it turned out when I dived in. Anyone else here tried?
  1551. # [22:04] <csmrfx> the thing is, server side CSS dsl or compressed CSS offers both without any overhead
  1552. # [22:05] <chriseppstein> csmrfx: TONS OF OVERHEAD
  1553. # [22:05] <JonathanNeal> but there is functionality that I think would be utilized for a better web building experience with sass.
  1554. # [22:05] <chriseppstein> have you measured the overhead
  1555. # [22:05] <csmrfx> I mean, certain things just remain in the equation, the extra js library transport and parsing overhead being constant with client side CSS here
  1556. # [22:05] <chriseppstein> have you compared it to the overhead of sending the equivalent css over the wire?
  1557. # [22:05] <JonathanNeal> mixins and variables would be so useful when dealing with color branding on a page.
  1558. # [22:05] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@venkman.brightcove.com)
  1559. # [22:06] <csmrfx> in software developement, we have this thing called KILL REDUNDANT SHIT WITH FIRE
  1560. # [22:06] <chriseppstein> and parsing the output of that?
  1561. # [22:06] <csmrfx> JonathanNeal: you're doing it wrong
  1562. # [22:06] <chriseppstein> csmrfx: you seem to speak a lot like those of us here don't know much
  1563. # [22:06] <sgalineau> JonathanNeal: at a time when JS can be made to decompress video streams, and given where it was even two years ago I think it's perfectly fine to try client-side things everyone else deems crazy
  1564. # [22:06] <chriseppstein> csmrfx: suggest you take it down a notch
  1565. # [22:06] <csmrfx> JonathanNeal: do they build paint tanks on houses "so it's easier to deal with"?
  1566. # [22:06] <sgalineau> things that are novel and interesting rarely start with consensus
  1567. # [22:07] <chriseppstein> sgalineau: boy howdy
  1568. # [22:07] <chriseppstein> sgalineau: I could barely give sass and compass away 4 years ago
  1569. # [22:08] <csmrfx> Well, bottom line: all this time here I have not heard one single *GOOD* idea.
  1570. # [22:08] <sgalineau> chriseppstein: I said 'rarely' :) It definitely happens, I just don't think it's the most common pattern for innovative projects
  1571. # [22:08] <chriseppstein> I agree
  1572. # [22:08] <csmrfx> Some of it *might work for some cases*
  1573. # [22:08] <csmrfx> So, its waste of my time
  1574. # [22:08] <csmrfx> bte
  1575. # [22:08] <csmrfx> and chriseppstein, suggest myass
  1576. # [22:08] <JonathanNeal> chriseppstein: when i first checked out sass, i immediately went to less, because at the time, it was easier to dive into, i was in php and there was a less compiler, and sass wanted me to try this new fangled ruby thing.
  1577. # [22:09] <chriseppstein> JonathanNeal: yep. I totally get that.
  1578. # [22:09] <chriseppstein> csmrfx: I prefer to talk to people who are civil to me and others
  1579. # [22:09] <JonathanNeal> now that i see consensus and the community coming around sass.
  1580. # [22:09] <csmrfx> chriseppstein: well I dont see that here so I wont bother
  1581. # [22:10] <JonathanNeal> i'm all for combining efforts and coming around something good like this.
  1582. # [22:10] * Quits: patcito (~123@190.42.249.195) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1583. # [22:10] <sgalineau> JonathanNeal, do you see that around you or in general? Interested in any data....
  1584. # [22:10] <chriseppstein> JonathanNeal: yep. we need to improve the starting experience of sass immensly
  1585. # [22:10] * Quits: devmikey (~irc@unaffiliated/devmikey) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1586. # [22:11] <JonathanNeal> chriseppstein: well, i've been obsessed with getting a js parser going, and I think that will help a lot of developers like myself get started.
  1587. # [22:11] <JonathanNeal> Seeing the success I've had using lea's prefixfree, it's even more solid in my head.
  1588. # [22:12] <chriseppstein> but I think there are lots of ways of making the starting experience better without using JS
  1589. # [22:12] <JonathanNeal> sgalineau: see what around in general? Sass? Years of following web trends, I just see another opportunity for it to be popular.
  1590. # [22:12] <csmrfx> anyway, for js stuff, #javascript is pretty good
  1591. # [22:12] <sgalineau> yeah, SASS being the consensus. I get that too, just interested in anyone having hard data of some sort
  1592. # [22:12] * Joins: manuchill (~mstalfoor@81.69.16.186)
  1593. # [22:13] <JonathanNeal> csmrfx: agreed, but it can be awfully busy in there, so talking with a group for more than a minute focused on a single thread of conversation can be really difficult.
  1594. # [22:13] <JonathanNeal> sgalineau: check how the tweets are doing as a chart.
  1595. # [22:13] <chriseppstein> sgalineau: I live in a sass bubble so I can't speak to this. but I would say that sass is definitely the tool of choice in frameworks and big websites that do thorough evaluations.
  1596. # [22:13] <JonathanNeal> I've seen people with a lot of followers bring it up more often lately.
  1597. # [22:13] * Joins: WebDragon (~webdragon@c-68-82-181-85.hsd1.de.comcast.net)
  1598. # [22:14] <sgalineau> yes, i've seen that too
  1599. # [22:14] * Parts: lmatteis (u3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-opdwfmlsvhjyextp)
  1600. # [22:14] <chriseppstein> and now Less is exploring the option of moving to scss syntax
  1601. # [22:14] <JonathanNeal> chriseppstein: I was leaving Liferay just as we were switching to SASS. I detested the compile times which made working on individual files while refreshing the page impossible. I don't necessarily blame SASS for that, but Java and Liferay.
  1602. # [22:15] * Quits: dgathright (~dgathrigh@nat/yahoo/x-xnmesihrjxwpould) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1603. # [22:15] <chriseppstein> JonathanNeal: huh. I use the compass watcher and so it is done out of band with the request
  1604. # [22:15] <JonathanNeal> They still uses SASS, but I don't think it's done right. I still prefer CSS. But I know I need to make the move, I'm just waiting for the right tools. It's like when I wanted a mobile phone. I just kept saying no. And then the iPhone happened, and then after I realized what it was (it took me a while) I got an iPhone.
  1605. # [22:15] * Quits: Taftse (~Taftse@unaffiliated/taftse) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1606. # [22:15] <JonathanNeal> That was my first phone, and I'm like 28.
  1607. # [22:16] * Joins: Taftse (~Taftse@unaffiliated/taftse)
  1608. # [22:16] <JonathanNeal> They use compass as well, I believe. I could ask Nate exactly how they do it.
  1609. # [22:16] <sgalineau> JonathanNeal : you didn't miss much :)
  1610. # [22:17] * Joins: brrutzo (~john@160.79.20.210)
  1611. # [22:17] <JonathanNeal> When I say "I know I need to make the move" I mean, "I think SASS is a better way to do it, I just want more things to work with it before I dive in, because I will likely DIVE"
  1612. # [22:17] <JonathanNeal> Well this is a really encouraging conversation!
  1613. # [22:18] <csmrfx> quite the opposite
  1614. # [22:18] <sgalineau> dude, you're even getting me excited
  1615. # [22:19] <csmrfx> you demonstrate the valuation of trendiness as a paradigm over conceptual or technological perfection
  1616. # [22:19] <csmrfx> eww
  1617. # [22:20] <JonathanNeal> csmrfx: do you think CSS could be improved?
  1618. # [22:20] <csmrfx> CSS could
  1619. # [22:20] * Joins: wow (~giulivo@93-62-129-246.ip22.fastwebnet.it)
  1620. # [22:20] <csmrfx> OTOH, it's just fine for web-page type of things
  1621. # [22:22] <csmrfx> you dont have to use classes for colors
  1622. # [22:22] <JonathanNeal> If you could change it to improve it, what you would change?
  1623. # [22:22] <csmrfx> go ahead, write a dsl instead
  1624. # [22:22] <chriseppstein> JonathanNeal: glad to hear you're giving it a second chance.
  1625. # [22:23] <JonathanNeal> csmrfx: PM me if you want to talk about it more. chriseppstein: yea there are just too many benefits :) I can't wait.
  1626. # [22:23] * Quits: finferflu (~finferflu@host-89-240-76-211.as13285.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1627. # [22:23] * Quits: sgalineau (~sylvaing@c-98-232-9-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  1628. # [22:23] * Quits: taylorRichie (~Adium@208.110.141.169) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1629. # [22:24] <csmrfx> hm, it's rarely CSS thats the problem, actually
  1630. # [22:24] * Joins: matijam (~matija@109.60.109.246)
  1631. # [22:24] <csmrfx> perhaps you could have xpath selectors
  1632. # [22:24] <csmrfx> 3D matrix transformations (but are these in CSS3)
  1633. # [22:25] <csmrfx> perhaps more inheritance or module functionality could take CSS to another level
  1634. # [22:25] <csmrfx> I suppose thats what you are planning
  1635. # [22:25] * Quits: Jon47 (~Adium@pool-74-96-160-56.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1636. # [22:27] <csmrfx> generally the way browsers do "liquid/elastic" layouts seems to suck a little
  1637. # [22:28] * Quits: ericbarnes (~ericbarne@cpe-075-181-047-014.carolina.res.rr.com) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
  1638. # [22:31] * Joins: mokush (~mokush@188.24.55.36)
  1639. # [22:31] <Octayn> JonathanNeal: I wouldn't mind a constraint based layout engine, tbh
  1640. # [22:31] <csmrfx> I think CSS could use a preprocessor extension for SASS like crap at most
  1641. # [22:31] <Octayn> But that's not CSS related really
  1642. # [22:31] <Octayn> well it is, but not really
  1643. # [22:32] <csmrfx> in the same way as SASS isn't, really
  1644. # [22:32] <csmrfx> just syntactic sugar with a preprocessor (almost a parser perhaps)
  1645. # [22:33] <csmrfx> who knows, maybe there's that overhead, too
  1646. # [22:33] * Joins: patcito (~123@190.42.249.195)
  1647. # [22:33] <csmrfx> you can tell I dont know what SASS is to every detail, atm
  1648. # [22:34] <chriseppstein> nope. sass's @extend directive needs to be in css. it produces exponential output if you precompile, but at runtime, it's a hash-lookup
  1649. # [22:34] <matijam> hey guys :)
  1650. # [22:35] * Joins: pawel__ (~pawel@41.27.158.105)
  1651. # [22:35] <chriseppstein> mixins could be done during a preprocessor step in the browser, but you still need debugging hints.
  1652. # [22:35] * Joins: diogogmt (~kvirc@142.204.70.21)
  1653. # [22:37] <csmrfx> holy cow sass is huge
  1654. # [22:37] * Quits: louisremi (~louisremi@mon69-3-87-90-54-237.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  1655. # [22:37] <csmrfx> lol ok I quit this now but man did you write all that just to parse some pseudo css
  1656. # [22:37] <csmrfx> whoa
  1657. # [22:37] <chriseppstein> me and a friend
  1658. # [22:38] <gcpantazis> ...
  1659. # [22:38] <chriseppstein> yep
  1660. # [22:38] <chriseppstein> meeting. laters
  1661. # [22:38] * Quits: jetienne (~jerome@ivr94-6-82-230-255-246.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: jetienne)
  1662. # [22:40] <matijam> sass is awesome
  1663. # [22:40] <matijam> finally the right way of doing things, like markdown
  1664. # [22:41] <matijam> damn, chris escaped...
  1665. # [22:41] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chrisepps@209.119.65.162) (Quit: chriseppstein)
  1666. # [22:41] <csmrfx> i dunno, it seems like if they'd concentrated on world peace, we'd all be melting our guns
  1667. # [22:42] <matijam> what do you mean?
  1668. # [22:42] * Joins: mattkelly (~mattkelly@drupal.org/user/64049/view)
  1669. # [22:42] <csmrfx> *cough* I mean I'd be far too lazy to write half of that for sass
  1670. # [22:43] <JonathanNeal> Octayn: are you talking about my thing with contenteditable?
  1671. # [22:43] <matijam> it's not something that happened overnight, like rails
  1672. # [22:43] <matijam> what?
  1673. # [22:43] <Octayn> JonathanNeal: no
  1674. # [22:43] <Octayn> Talking about html/css in general
  1675. # [22:43] <JonathanNeal> Oh, what did you mean about constraint based layout engine?
  1676. # [22:44] * Joins: Emn1ty (Emn1ty@wsip-98-189-115-152.oc.oc.cox.net)
  1677. # [22:44] <Emn1ty> anyone seen this before? http://html5boilerplate.com/
  1678. # [22:44] <csmrfx> yes
  1679. # [22:44] <csmrfx> use it, fine
  1680. # [22:44] <Emn1ty> is it any good?
  1681. # [22:44] <Emn1ty> is there any reason to use it?
  1682. # [22:44] * Joins: ericbarnes (~ericbarne@cpe-075-181-047-014.carolina.res.rr.com)
  1683. # [22:44] <csmrfx> not if you like wasting time on redundant crap
  1684. # [22:45] <csmrfx> like googling up DTD's etc
  1685. # [22:45] * Joins: coeus (~coeus@dslb-084-061-102-046.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  1686. # [22:45] <Emn1ty> so combining this with bootstrap could be a good idea?
  1687. # [22:45] <matijam> Emn1ty: it's a set of best practices
  1688. # [22:45] <csmrfx> bootstrap? sorry, I'm not into boots
  1689. # [22:45] <Emn1ty> lol
  1690. # [22:45] * Quits: WebDragon (~webdragon@c-68-82-181-85.hsd1.de.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  1691. # [22:46] <csmrfx> do you speak english?
  1692. # [22:46] <Emn1ty> http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/
  1693. # [22:46] <matijam> I don't know, Twitter Bootstrap seems like a good thing for apps
  1694. # [22:46] <csmrfx> sorry, I'm not gay
  1695. # [22:46] <matijam> but not for making sites
  1696. # [22:46] * csmrfx pushes that twitter link bit further awat
  1697. # [22:46] <matijam> ordinary sites, I mean
  1698. # [22:46] <Emn1ty> its worked well for me so far, especially the layout portions
  1699. # [22:46] <csmrfx> bad joke
  1700. # [22:47] * Quits: pexite (~pexite@hyp-p-106.pabianice.msk.pl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1701. # [22:47] <matijam> But it's someone else's design.
  1702. # [22:47] <Emn1ty> the design is still what you want it to be, seeing as everything is changeable
  1703. # [22:47] <matijam> That means that a maaaany other people have a site which looks similar to yours.
  1704. # [22:48] <Emn1ty> you can even download the scaffolding by itself.
  1705. # [22:48] <matijam> yeah, but it's not that customizable
  1706. # [22:48] <Emn1ty> http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/download.html
  1707. # [22:48] <Emn1ty> its completely customizeable
  1708. # [22:48] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chrisepps@209.119.65.162)
  1709. # [22:48] <csmrfx> it's called frameworks
  1710. # [22:48] <matijam> yeah, the new bootstrap is pretty cool, with al that responsiveness and stuff
  1711. # [22:48] * Joins: barbagallo (~johnbarba@199.20.44.50)
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  1713. # [22:49] <matijam> I'll try it once, before I try it, I'm not actually allowed to say that I don't think it's a good thing.
  1714. # [22:50] <ericbarnes> matijam I just did this site with bootstrap - http://laravel.com/
  1715. # [22:50] <csmrfx> so, its a bunch of styles with some js components
  1716. # [22:50] <Emn1ty> yes
  1717. # [22:50] <Emn1ty> its a style library, essentially
  1718. # [22:50] <csmrfx> well
  1719. # [22:50] * Joins: pexite (~pexite@hyp-p-106.pabianice.msk.pl)
  1720. # [22:50] <csmrfx> where I come from I just get to write all teh styles
  1721. # [22:51] <matijam> ericbarnes: wow... I take back my critics, that doesn't look like Bootstrap at all...
  1722. # [22:51] <ericbarnes> it's just a base. You do what you want with it.
  1723. # [22:51] <Emn1ty> also in bootstrap: http://vehicleinventorynetwork.com/ja/freewayisuzu/
  1724. # [22:51] <Emn1ty> work in progress fyi
  1725. # [22:52] <matijam> I'll try it it next time.
  1726. # [22:52] <csmrfx> well, I think dojo and that tealeaf thing are slightly miscreant, too
  1727. # [22:52] <csmrfx> starts with s, too
  1728. # [22:52] * Quits: glcrazy (~SiRiuS@79.119.94.207) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1729. # [22:52] <matijam> what are you talking about?
  1730. # [22:52] <wow> there is initializr
  1731. # [22:53] <wow> which can provide you with mixed bootstrap/boilerplate settings
  1732. # [22:53] <csmrfx> matijam: redundant heaps of crap that sell themselves with the argument 'its cool and fast'
  1733. # [22:53] * Joins: StoneCypher (~no@pool-71-191-249-112.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  1734. # [22:53] <matijam> csmrfx: Wordpress and similar are redundant heaps of crap.
  1735. # [22:53] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1736. # [22:54] <csmrfx> oh dont even get me started on server side frameworks
  1737. # [22:54] <matijam> Bootstrap isn't. Tried id a bit, but nothing serious.
  1738. # [22:54] <Emn1ty> its especially nice when you choose what you get.
  1739. # [22:54] <matijam> exaclty
  1740. # [22:55] <csmrfx> Let's be honest here
  1741. # [22:55] <matijam> we are honest
  1742. # [22:55] * Joins: level09 (~nidal@91.74.126.112)
  1743. # [22:55] <csmrfx> It's especially nice if you're lazy or a noob or just dont know how to do it
  1744. # [22:55] <matijam> Does anyone do Sass here? I need some advice.
  1745. # [22:55] <level09> are hgroups fully compatible down to ie 6 ?
  1746. # [22:55] * wow is now known as giulivo
  1747. # [22:55] <level09> with html5shiv
  1748. # [22:55] * Quits: debsan (~debsan@190.245.74.16) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  1749. # [22:56] <marcocarag> matijam scss here. maybe i can help
  1750. # [22:56] * Parts: level09 (~nidal@91.74.126.112)
  1751. # [22:56] <matijam> every element should work with html5shiv
  1752. # [22:56] <matijam> hgroup is just another element unknown to IE6
  1753. # [22:56] <matijam> so it should work
  1754. # [22:56] <matijam> but hgroup is not in a good position right now, I think it's either gonna be removed or replaced
  1755. # [22:57] <csmrfx> so does Opa appeal to you ppl?
  1756. # [22:57] <matijam> marcocarag: cool
  1757. # [22:57] <matijam> I extended Sass a bit
  1758. # [22:57] <matijam> with a few math functions
  1759. # [22:57] * Joins: Jon47 (~Adium@pool-74-96-160-56.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  1760. # [22:57] <matijam> now I don't know what to do with it
  1761. # [22:58] <matijam> should I release it as a gem
  1762. # [22:58] <matijam> should I send a pull request to Compass
  1763. # [22:58] <bendman> anybody know the maximum number of worker threads (in chrome, if it's browser specific)
  1764. # [22:58] <marcocarag> matijam oh, in that case i don't have a really strong opinion. :) though, i don't mind the compass route, since i'm a compass user
  1765. # [22:59] <matijam> yeah, it's to small to be a gem anyways...
  1766. # [22:59] <matijam> have you ever contributed do Compass?
  1767. # [22:59] <matijam> documentation, in specific
  1768. # [22:59] <marcocarag> nope, i have not
  1769. # [22:59] * Joins: WebDragon (~webdragon@c-68-82-181-85.hsd1.de.comcast.net)
  1770. # [23:00] <matijam> it's pretty unpleasant, I thought I was doing something wrong
  1771. # [23:00] <matijam> on every browser refresh, the whole static documentation has to be generated, that's 30-60 min per refresh
  1772. # [23:01] <matijam> whoops, secs
  1773. # [23:01] * Quits: sean` (~seankoole@D97A9E4C.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Ik ga weg)
  1774. # [23:01] <matijam> not min
  1775. # [23:01] <matijam> :P
  1776. # [23:01] <matijam> csmrfx, what's Opa? :)
  1777. # [23:02] * Quits: grzesag (~grzesag@cpc1-oxfd10-0-0-cust851.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
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  1783. # [23:04] <csmrfx> Opa is gramps
  1784. # [23:04] * Quits: Taftse (~Taftse@unaffiliated/taftse) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  1785. # [23:05] <csmrfx> http://opalang.org/
  1786. # [23:06] * Quits: skyler_brungardt (~skyler@64.191.211.43) (Quit: skyler_brungardt)
  1787. # [23:08] * Quits: drknus (~user@blk-222-141-162.eastlink.ca) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1788. # [23:08] <csmrfx> its a web app framework/platform that has people who were coding web apps when you werent' even born yet excited
  1789. # [23:08] <csmrfx> (if the jive is to be believed :P )
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  1793. # [23:12] <carlos_antonio> bootstrap is legion
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  1809. # [23:25] <matijam> csmrfx, opa's site is made with Twitter Bootstrap :)
  1810. # [23:25] * Joins: debsan (~debsan@190.245.74.16)
  1811. # [23:26] <csmrfx> haha
  1812. # [23:26] <matijam> I don't get it, it's a new language?
  1813. # [23:27] <csmrfx> Opa is a new generation of open source web development platform that lets you write secure and scalable web applications using a single technology.
  1814. # [23:27] <JonathanNeal> matijam: where do you get that "hgroup is not in a good position right now, I think it's either gonna be removed or replaced"?
  1815. # [23:27] <JonathanNeal> I thought hgroup was going to die at one point too, but I heard that it is still there.
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  1819. # [23:29] <csmrfx> I bet they dont write the styles in Opa tho
  1820. # [23:30] <matijam> JonathanNeal: I read it in a couple of places, I forgot where, maybe Google will help you find some discussions
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  1822. # [23:30] <matijam> csmrfx: sound kinda weird
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  1831. # [23:36] <csmrfx> matijam: in opa you write both server side and client side in same function
  1832. # [23:36] <csmrfx> difficult concept for ajaxer
  1833. # [23:36] <csmrfx> (kinda)
  1834. # [23:37] <matijam> csmrfx: but what's the language written in?
  1835. # [23:37] <csmrfx> OCaml
  1836. # [23:37] * Joins: fearlesstost (~fearlesst@199-83-223-175.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
  1837. # [23:37] <csmrfx> lol I'd rather just write in OCaml
  1838. # [23:37] <csmrfx> (vs OPA)
  1839. # [23:38] <csmrfx> good thing its open source
  1840. # [23:39] <matijam> I don't see value in it atm
  1841. # [23:39] <csmrfx> well
  1842. # [23:40] <csmrfx> you will if you compare the LOC
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  1844. # [23:40] <csmrfx> it's something like ruby vs java kind of deal
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  1847. # [23:40] <csmrfx> depends what you compare it to, tho
  1848. # [23:41] <csmrfx> their chat app comparison with node.js chat app has like one quarter of the LOC
  1849. # [23:41] <matijam> oh, I'm more for Ruby then :D
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  1852. # [23:42] <matijam> I'm not a developer, though, I'm a designer, so it's not on my level
  1853. # [23:42] <csmrfx> where Opa trumps Rails is OCamls insane efficiency, it's usually faster or as fast as C
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  1855. # [23:44] <matijam> I'm pretty fine with Ruby's speed.
  1856. # [23:44] <matijam> I don't like a language which uses semicolons.
  1857. # [23:45] <WebDragon> lol
  1858. # [23:45] * Quits: bendman (~bendman@38.122.2.118) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1859. # [23:45] <Octayn> ...what
  1860. # [23:45] <csmrfx> I agree
  1861. # [23:45] <csmrfx> thats why I like OCaml
  1862. # [23:45] <Octayn> Semicolons are SUCH a minor thing to affect any decision
  1863. # [23:45] <WebDragon> I don' get it
  1864. # [23:45] <matijam> That's just the first thing I saw.
  1865. # [23:46] <csmrfx> OCaml only uses semicolons in repl (same as irb)
  1866. # [23:46] <matijam> It's not minor, though.
  1867. # [23:46] <csmrfx> Opa, I dont know so much about
  1868. # [23:46] <WebDragon> the first thing you noticed was the lack of semicolons? you must have a real dislike of them. which I still don't understand.
  1869. # [23:46] <Octayn> matijam: semicolons are entirely irrelevant
  1870. # [23:46] <Octayn> You prefer ASI?
  1871. # [23:46] <csmrfx> syntax options are meaningful part of the language
  1872. # [23:47] <csmrfx> I use ASI with js whenever poss
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  1874. # [23:47] <Octayn> csmrfx: but it's still a mess and shouldn't exist. python and tons of other languages don't have peculiarities
  1875. # [23:47] <csmrfx> what?
  1876. # [23:48] <matijam> WebDragon: yeah, I don't like a language which forces me to write semicolons when a line break is clearly showing where the end of the statement is. But that's just one thing.
  1877. # [23:48] <csmrfx> It's put in by people who made js
  1878. # [23:48] <csmrfx> I think they got to decide, like it or not
  1879. # [23:48] <csmrfx> no mess there whatsoever
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  1881. # [23:48] <Octayn> ASI is a terrible mess. If you aren't very familiar with the grammar, it will mess you up.
  1882. # [23:49] <Octayn> csmrfx: what's your score on http://asi.qfox.nl/ ?
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  1884. # [23:49] <WebDragon> some are flexible in that regard, though. as in sometimes you can omit the semicolons
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  1886. # [23:49] <csmrfx> Octayn: it is: too lazy to do computer's job
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  1888. # [23:51] <csmrfx> I must say, as a OCaml noob, it is really, really, really nice language
  1889. # [23:51] <Octayn> Like I said, semicolons are irrelevant. It's trivial to not use them if you don't want to in every language, and they aren't needed if you're willing to accept the stricter rules that lack of semicolons introduce.
  1890. # [23:51] <csmrfx> I liked ruby and scheme and ecmascript and disliked C and Java
  1891. # [23:51] <Octayn> (I happen to like python's, and many others's, compromise)
  1892. # [23:53] <matijam> Yeah, there are two types of programmers, Ruby/Python and PHP/Java/C
  1893. # [23:53] <matijam> it's just a matter of taste, in the end
  1894. # [23:53] <csmrfx> hm, thats more like levels of programmers
  1895. # [23:53] <Octayn> C and Python are my two favorite languages, what are you talking about
  1896. # [23:53] <csmrfx> I started with assembler and C
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  1898. # [23:53] <csmrfx> and it always seemed stupid how you'd have to do the computers job
  1899. # [23:53] <csmrfx> painful crap
  1900. # [23:54] * Quits: sasori (~sasori@acl1-719bts.gw.smartbro.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1901. # [23:54] <Octayn> The computer doesn't have a job unless you give it one
  1902. # [23:54] <matijam> I had to do a C++ program and I almost died.
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  1905. # [23:54] <csmrfx> yeah well
  1906. # [23:54] <csmrfx> those are just empty halls
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  1908. # [23:54] <csmrfx> when most people need a shop
  1909. # [23:55] <matijam> But I'm not a programmer anyways. I had to learn it by myself because the teacher didn't teach us anything.
  1910. # [23:55] <csmrfx> lol can a teacher learn things for you?
  1911. # [23:55] <csmrfx> mine never could
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  1913. # [23:55] <Octayn> Sure they can, if you're the type of person that likes doing mindless busy problems
  1914. # [23:55] * Octayn stops while he's ahead on that subject..
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  1916. # [23:56] <matijam> No, but the teacher should teach you about the language, give you homeworks, make you learn step by step.
  1917. # [23:56] <matijam> Mine literally didn't do anything, there were no classes, just the exam.
  1918. # [23:56] <Octayn> teachers should step back, let you explore, and answer questions you have that they know you won't be able to figure out
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  1920. # [23:57] <matijam> But they should at least give you SOMETHING. C++ is not the easiest language in the world.
  1921. # [23:57] <Octayn> One of the hardest!
  1922. # [23:57] <Octayn> s/hardest/most complex and huge/
  1923. # [23:57] <Octayn> Definitely not for beginners
  1924. # [23:58] <csmrfx> Life is your teacher
  1925. # [23:58] <matijam> Yes. I had a programming background, so I managed somehow.
  1926. # [23:58] <csmrfx> somebody might have to start with C++
  1927. # [23:58] <matijam> And by "managed" I mean my brother did it.
  1928. # [23:58] <csmrfx> I started with C and assembler without any teachers, and took years before found anyone else who knew anything about it
  1929. # [23:59] <csmrfx> (and yes, it was painful and didn't get far in a year)
  1930. # [23:59] <Octayn> I started with logo and moved to c++
  1931. # [23:59] <matijam> On the other hand, I did a lot on Python classes. The teacher taught us and we really understood.
  1932. # Session Close: Thu Mar 08 00:00:02 2012

The end :)