/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-03-13 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 13 00:00:02 2012
2. # Session Ident: #html5
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86. # [01:48] * fearlesstost_ is now known as fearlesstost
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95. # [02:05] <xp_prg> $("form[id$='_tbl_frm'").submit(function(event) {
96. # [02:05] <xp_prg> am I doing something wrong this is not binding :(
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110. # [02:34] <jaggedsoft> hey guys. i need some feedback on my html5 game, done in websockets and javascript. no download / instant load time.
111. # [02:34] <jaggedsoft> please give feedback: http://ageispolis.net/edgerunner/ pick any name/password and click play
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113. # [02:35] <jaggedsoft> let me know how it runs for you/if you have any lag/if you think anything should be different. requires firefox 11+ or chrome 16+
114. # [02:35] <ageis> yes sir
115. # [02:36] <jaggedsoft> does it run smooth on your comp ageis?
116. # [02:36] <ageis> great work jaggedsoft! runs smooth as hell. glad to see you are not using the devil FLASH
117. # [02:37] <jaggedsoft> agreed. flash makes me want to kick babies
118. # [02:37] <jaggedsoft> thanks for testing
119. # [02:37] <jaggedsoft> guys, please give feedback: http://ageispolis.net/edgerunner/ pick any name/password and click play
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124. # [02:41] <jaggedsoft> if you cant get in please update your browser http://ageispolis.net/edgerunner
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129. # [02:48] <jaggedsoft> please give feedback: http://ageispolis.net/edgerunner/
130. # [02:49] <danielfilho> trying
131. # [02:49] <danielfilho> nothing happened so far
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133. # [02:50] * tw2113 is already on level 2
134. # [02:50] <tw2113> wait, that wasn't me
135. # [02:50] <tw2113> nevermind
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137. # [02:53] <ageis> you need chrome 16+ or firefox 11 beta
138. # [02:53] <ageis> it uses new shit
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140. # [02:53] <danielfilho> funny :)
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195. # [04:41] <RafaelFuturo> hey all can anyone suggest a way to fix the middle colum on this site fandronicos.com
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198. # [04:45] <RafaelFuturo> something on css im missing
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237. # [05:39] <rstuppi> I just downloaded HTML5 Boilerplate for the first time, copied it up to my website at stuppi.com/sandobx/sb1 and there is no favicon.ico showing. I see the icon in the root folder and I have not touched any of the html. Can anyone explain why something so seeming simple turns out to not work?
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245. # [05:56] <cornerse> rstuppi: sandobx?
246. # [05:58] <JonathanNeal> hi
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250. # [06:02] <rstuppi> cornerse: sorry, sandbox
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272. # [06:37] <daleharvey> I see the bootstrap favicon in chrome + firefox, ctrl + refresh, favicons suck at updating
273. # [06:38] <daleharvey> s/bootstrap/boilerplate
274. # [06:39] <rstuppi> daleharey: Well. just for shits and giggles I added the href to favicon.ico and now it shows up.
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277. # [06:40] <rstuppi> HTML5 Boilerplate recommends not putting a link to it in the header. Says browsers will look for favicon in the root folder. Not too sure what to belive.
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279. # [06:42] <rstuppi> <!-- Place favicon.ico and apple-touch-icon.png in the root directory: mathiasbynens.be/notes/touch-icons -->
280. # [06:43] <rstuppi> I am in a shared hosting environment on NS. I realize many stranger things happen in there, maybe this is one of them?
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334. # [06:56] <rstuppi> Thank you all for your help. I am going to go to sleep on it and hope things change in the morning.
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421. # [07:17] <theblueye> hi
422. # [07:20] <theblueye> i made a walkthrough on html5 basic features that someone can use right now without breaking his website in any other browsers (and less work) , tell me what you think - http://thecodeplayer.com/walkthrough/html5-features-that-you-must-implement-right-now ?
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706. # [08:55] <theblueye> i made a walkthrough on html5 basic features that someone can use right now without breaking his website in any other browsers (and less work) , tell me what you think - http://thecodeplayer.com/walkthrough/html5-features-that-you-must-implement-right-now ?
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778. # [10:42] <phrearch> omfg, why does anyone and it's dog write useless abstraction libraries on top of what's already good
779. # [10:42] * phrearch needs a break
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902. # [11:57] <zhaozhou> Could someone take a quick peek at what is causing the body of this page to be y+3px in size? (X is okay. Content is generated via JS (only one element). There are no borders, margins or paddings.)
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906. # [12:05] <martisj> crossbrowser audio in my Web site anyone?
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908. # [12:07] <moo-_-> martisj: use ogg + aac to cover all browsers
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911. # [12:08] <martisj> moo-_-: hmm. what if the audio files are provided by users?
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913. # [12:08] <moo-_-> martisj: use transcoding service
914. # [12:08] <martisj> hmmm. sounds complicated. What about flash fallback?
915. # [12:09] <moo-_-> martisj: your pick
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917. # [12:09] <martisj> moo-_-: thanks for the input :) quick and responsive
918. # [12:09] <moo-_-> np :)
919. # [12:09] <moo-_-> martisj: please note that you most likely to still need to transcode them to support mobile users
920. # [12:10] <moo-_-> martisj: it costs money
921. # [12:10] <moo-_-> martisj: but is doable
922. # [12:10] <martisj> moo-_-: well then no transcoding for me...
923. # [12:10] <martisj> mobile hasn't been part of the spec so far, so I don't HAVE to support it.
924. # [12:10] <moo-_-> soundmanager2 might have been <audio> API compatible lib with flash fallback
925. # [12:11] <moo-_-> I used it, but it brought all kind of problems with it
926. # [12:11] <moo-_-> so I just ended up transcoding files myself using ffmpeg on the server
927. # [12:11] <martisj> moo-_-: no time to learn ffmpeg
928. # [12:11] <moo-_-> no money, no time, must accomplish. man you must be under pressure :)
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930. # [12:15] <niloy> is a cookie created by https accesssible by http of the same domain?
931. # [12:15] <martisj> moo-_-: yes sir...
932. # [12:17] <moo-_-> niloy: no
933. # [12:17] <niloy> moo-_-, I guess same applies to localStorage?
934. # [12:17] <moo-_-> niloy: yes
935. # [12:17] <moo-_-> make your site https only is the easiest solution
936. # [12:20] <theblueye> hey can you hear me ?
937. # [12:21] <theblueye> i made a walkthrough on html5 basic features that anyone can use right now without breaking his website in any other browsers (doesn't require much work) , tell me what you think - http://thecodeplayer.com/walkthrough/html5-features-that-you-must-implement-right-now ?
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940. # [12:26] <moo-_-> theblueye: I tried to read that, but I prefer blog format and articles myself :(
941. # [12:30] <theblueye> oh,:(
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943. # [12:31] <theblueye> would you suggest any improvements for the webapp ?
944. # [12:31] <jetienne> i like the tool
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948. # [12:32] <jetienne> theblueye: but it lacks background music or something. http://vimeo.com/36278748 <- this one for example. it has music. it makes it more entertaining
949. # [12:33] <theblueye> yup, saw that last month
950. # [12:33] <jetienne> theblueye: try to mute the video.. it seems a lot duller still the code is the same
951. # [12:33] <theblueye> i was thinking of inviting the guy :P
952. # [12:34] <theblueye> and yeh, i have been thinking of adding some bg music
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954. # [12:34] <jetienne> theblueye: just feeedback as i do live coding too :)
955. # [12:34] <theblueye> thanks
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962. # [12:37] <theblueye> i am looking for alpha testers who would live to create some walkthroughs. so if anyone of you is interested just signup :)
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983. # [13:05] <qawsedrf> i was studying about appcache, how would one go about using it in a dynamic web app ? cuz it a page on the web app might have several parts that gets updated frequently.
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986. # [13:06] <moo-_-> qawsedrf: appcache is useless for situations like that
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988. # [13:09] <qawsedrf> i think that's the answer i was looking for :P
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1003. # [13:26] <qawsedrf> moo-_-: so app cache is more useful for the static parts of your site ?
1004. # [13:26] <qawsedrf> or maybe a dynamic page where one does not expect the content to change on every page refresh for quite some time
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1031. # [14:01] <qawsedrf> seems like each and every resource needs to be in the manifest
1032. # [14:01] <qawsedrf> not cool
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1064. # [14:58] <martisj> quick question about html5boilerplate. Does the modernizr library allow for the use of html 5 elements in older browsers?
1065. # [14:58] <martisj> or does it only test which functions are available?
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1070. # [15:04] <qawsedrf> i haven;t used any, but i think as far as html5 elements are concerned, modernizr will create them for older browsers like ie6, ie7, ie8
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1075. # [15:06] <martisj> qawsedrf: thanks :D
1076. # [15:07] <martisj> so i'll leave it in there for the time being. only thing is that it's quite big.
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1078. # [15:09] <bendman> martisj: you can also get a custom modernizr off the site, that way you can shrink it down and only get what you'll use
1079. # [15:12] <martisj> bendman: thanks
1080. # [15:12] <martisj> i'll take a look
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1083. # [15:14] <Butcher> is there a channel for php? i can't seem to join #php
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1085. # [15:15] <StoneCypher> two #
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1087. # [15:16] <StoneCypher> single # means either it's an official channel or a very old channel from before that naming rule was set
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1095. # [15:27] <martisj> I'm pretty sure I'm only using html5shiv.
1096. # [15:27] <martisj> this is what creates the html5 elements right?
1097. # [15:28] <qawsedrf> yes
1098. # [15:29] <qawsedrf> document.createElement
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1102. # [15:30] <nFFF> is flash use going to become less prominent
1103. # [15:30] <nFFF> and be repalced by html5, js and css3?
1104. # [15:30] <humptydumpty2> Hey guys, is there anyway to find out when a loop has reached the end of it's loop and started again so that i can make a variable count +1 each time the loop has gone trhough???
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1106. # [15:31] <humptydumpty2> im using the audio tag to paly the loop
1107. # [15:31] <StoneCypher> no
1108. # [15:31] <StoneCypher> flash use is on a dramatic uptick
1109. # [15:31] <StoneCypher> and it's going to continue
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1114. # [15:33] <nFFF> So building an app within flash should be considered
1115. # [15:33] <nFFF> over js
1116. # [15:34] <StoneCypher> depends on your needs
1117. # [15:34] <StoneCypher> flash has serious consequences
1118. # [15:34] <StoneCypher> but
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1120. # [15:34] <StoneCypher> if you're making a web client video game, and you aren't particularly worried about iOS, it's usually the way to go, for example
1121. # [15:34] <StoneCypher> i mean look, it's a niche technology for a reason
1122. # [15:34] * jason_s|away is now known as jason_stoudt
1123. # [15:34] <StoneCypher> but yeah, you should evaluate it.
1124. # [15:34] <StoneCypher> i mean they just compiled unreal engine 3 to flash
1125. # [15:35] <StoneCypher> and that's being used for commercial products.
1126. # [15:35] <StoneCypher> good luck doing that in html
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1129. # [15:36] <nFFF> Do you forsee in the future as broswer engines become faster, that something of that scale could be ran native in the browser
1130. # [15:37] <StoneCypher> it has nothing to do with scale
1131. # [15:37] <StoneCypher> you're just throwing computery-sounding words together so that you can ask about the future
1132. # [15:37] <StoneCypher> do i expect html to become uniform enough that you could build that in webgl?
1133. # [15:37] <StoneCypher> maybe.
1134. # [15:38] <StoneCypher> it /might/ be possible today
1135. # [15:38] <StoneCypher> but it'd be agonizing
1136. # [15:38] <StoneCypher> and i wouldn't want to do it.
1137. # [15:38] <StoneCypher> the difference is Adobe Alchemy
1138. # [15:38] <StoneCypher> and i don't forsee anyone actually building that for html unless they think there's a commercial product there
1139. # [15:38] <StoneCypher> and i don't see anyone outside Adobe having a market model that makes something like that a viable commercial product
1140. # [15:38] <StoneCypher> possible? sure, probably. going to happen? nope.
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1142. # [15:40] <nFFF> Im wanting to build an app to effectively design clothing, possibly in 3D but at the very least 2D vector
1143. # [15:40] <nFFF> So just exploring the options
1144. # [15:40] <nFFF> and limitations of technologies
1145. # [15:40] <nFFF> and pro/cons
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1147. # [15:43] <qawsedrf> flash will die
1148. # [15:43] <jetienne> nFFF: <canvas> is able to satisfy this need i think. it is standard and avilable everywhere
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1151. # [15:45] <nFFF> Seems as though SVG is a better choice than canvas
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1154. # [15:45] <nFFF> For drawing
1155. # [15:45] <nFFF> canvas isn't vectorizer
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1157. # [15:50] <jetienne> it isnt
1158. # [15:50] <jetienne> nFFF: why do you think svg is better ?
1159. # [15:51] <jetienne> i dunno about svg support, in fact i never used it :)
1160. # [15:52] <Jonny5> I've done a little html back in the days and want to try something new. I want to build a site, that contains only a segmented pie chart withouth using any rastered gfx. Each segment should be clickable. Bonus points if I can manipulate any segment's shape with JS. I've got all of the recent microsoft tools and inkscape. Where and how should I start? Sample: http://www.at-mix.de/images/glossar/kreisdiagramm.gif
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1163. # [15:54] <Jonny5> whoops. als I meant to say hi :)
1164. # [15:54] <Jonny5> *also
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1168. # [15:56] <Jonny5> I know I can do that by calculating these segments and draw them on a canvas (I think). But if there were a way to do that more efficiently (say, as svgs) I would prefer that.
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1174. # [16:01] <toocwa> Jonny5: Not sure if this helps but I found a really nice HTML5 Canvas tutorial: http://is.gd/Bdt6Hu or this one is a nice start if you prefer to use SVG: http://is.gd/6rVH4c
1175. # [16:01] <toocwa> They're both jQuery based
1176. # [16:01] <moo-_-> qawsedrf: use appcache for static media resources
1177. # [16:01] <moo-_-> qawsedrf: for dynamic content download, store in local database
1178. # [16:01] <toocwa> Sorry think only the canvas one is jQuery actually
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1180. # [16:02] <Jonny5> these look lovely. thank you, toocwa.
1181. # [16:02] <mansoor> how is html5 different than html?
1182. # [16:02] <moo-_-> mansoor: it is not
1183. # [16:03] <mansoor> then why make a new channel
1184. # [16:03] <moo-_-> mansoor: check topic links
1185. # [16:03] <toocwa> no problem
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1187. # [16:03] <moo-_-> mansoor: to discuss matters in correct context
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1189. # [16:03] <mansoor> i thought they were the samething :S
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1191. # [16:05] <qawsedrf> moo-_-: but browsers these days cache static resources pretty well by default
1192. # [16:05] <moo-_-> qawsedrf: manifest caches resource the browsers have not visited yet
1193. # [16:05] <moo-_-> i.e for the future
1194. # [16:05] <moo-_-> mansoor: but the context may be different ;)
1195. # [16:06] <qawsedrf> well yes, it can if mentioned in the manifest file
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1197. # [16:08] <qawsedrf> but remember you coould do that with some trick like, loading the file with ajax in background that the browser would cache
1198. # [16:08] <qawsedrf> loading the static assets*
1199. # [16:09] <moo-_-> mansoor: one pic tells more than thousand words http://t.co/lNuYBHA2
1200. # [16:10] <moo-_-> qawsedrf: manifest is cleaner solution as browser knows about the context of caching the whole web app
1201. # [16:11] <qawsedrf> k
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1207. # [16:15] <mansoor> moo-_-, HAHAHA
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1249. # [17:06] <aibo> hi
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1252. # [17:09] <aibo> I'm using the html5 boilerplate, made my layout up and converted everything to php so i can comfortably use a content-include method like index.php?page=foo . i use mod_rewrite to clean the urls with "RewriteRule ^([a-z]+)/?$ index.php?page=$1 [NC,L]" this works but destroys all js/img/css when i use the optional trailing slash because the h5bp uses realtive paths. is there any kind of hotfix for that?
1253. # [17:10] <divya> aibo: what is wrong?
1254. # [17:10] <divya> what urls get destroyed
1255. # [17:11] <aibo> when i use example.com/page everythings fine but when i use example.com/page/ the page is displayed without images/js/css
1256. # [17:11] <aibo> because the h5bp uses relative paths to all directories like css/style.css and not /css/style.css
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1258. # [17:12] <divya> aibo: ah then make them absolute!
1259. # [17:12] <divya> i think this is a good case why we shouldnt be using relative paths
1260. # [17:12] <aibo> I don't want to go trough every file and fix every single path so i tought there was like a method arround
1261. # [17:12] <divya> aibo: can you file a ticket on https://github.com/h5bp/html5-boilerplate/
1262. # [17:13] <aibo> ah okay thank you!
1263. # [17:14] <divya> aibo: basically you should not use relative urls then
1264. # [17:14] <divya> just go absolute
1265. # [17:14] <moo-_-> aibo: this is a common problem
1266. # [17:14] <divya> yeah
1267. # [17:14] <moo-_-> aibo: divya: it would be naive to think this is not solved
1268. # [17:14] <divya> wat?
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1270. # [17:14] <aibo> haha yes i tought i can not be the first :D
1271. # [17:15] <aibo> but as i googled i didn't find a moderate solution
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1273. # [17:15] <divya> moo-_-: i think it is worth having it as abs by default
1274. # [17:15] <divya> rather than relative
1275. # [17:15] <moo-_-> divya: no
1276. # [17:16] <divya> ?
1277. # [17:16] <moo-_-> aibo: w
1278. # [17:16] <moo-_-> aibo: can you paste to pastie.org what code you should fix?
1279. # [17:16] <moo-_-> isn't it just few bits in <head>
1280. # [17:16] <moo-_-> divya: it's naive to also think that / is your site root
1281. # [17:16] <moo-_-> e.g. it is not statically hosted github pages
1282. # [17:17] <divya> you could always set your base url
1283. # [17:17] <moo-_-> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/HTML/Element/base
1284. # [17:17] <aibo> i just want to exclude files like css/js/png/jpg from my rewriterule
1285. # [17:17] <moo-_-> I think there must be misusing of boilerplate of this is an issue
1286. # [17:17] <moo-_-> aibo: well I think your problem is not boilerplate, but your rewrite rules :)
1287. # [17:18] <divya> moo-_-: a lot of people use several sub folders of html pages
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1289. # [17:18] <divya> and relative urls dont scale that way
1290. # [17:18] <aibo> haha i came here because i used the sample .htaccess-file from the h5bp and thought the problem was related to that
1291. # [17:18] <divya> no it is not
1292. # [17:19] <divya> but it is still a good issue to discuss again
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1294. # [17:21] <moo-_-> https://github.com/h5bp/html5-boilerplate/blob/master/index.html if this is the links you need to update it is not many?
1295. # [17:21] <moo-_-> divya: it is also wrong decision to make an assumption that css files would go to /css in site root
1296. # [17:21] <divya> so you would update it for every html page you create? :) if used statically of course.
1297. # [17:22] <moo-_-> e.g. it does not work on file://
1298. # [17:22] <moo-_-> divya: of course you don't do that statically
1299. # [17:22] <divya> sure, but jquery wont load anyway on file://
1300. # [17:22] <aibo> moo-_-: but what about all the images in the css etc?
1301. # [17:22] <divya> we recommend a local server always.
1302. # [17:22] <moo-_-> aibo: images in CSS are loaded relative to *CSS file location*
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1304. # [17:22] <moo-_-> divya: jquery loads fine on file://
1305. # [17:22] <aibo> well that makes kind of sense
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1308. # [17:23] <divya> moo-_-: no it does not. it looks for file://api.google.com
1309. # [17:23] <divya> coz of our protocol relative url
1310. # [17:23] <divya> and it 404s
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1312. # [17:23] <moo-_-> divya: it is then problem with the loader code, obvious eg?
1313. # [17:23] <moo-_-> eh
1314. # [17:24] <divya> not a problem a conscious decision.
1315. # [17:24] <divya> it is not that hard to use local servers on all major OSes.
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1317. # [17:24] <moo-_-> it is not that hard to use file:// either :)
1318. # [17:25] <moo-_-> and don't make an assumption /css is a server root. as I said before this would not work e.g. on github hosted content.
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1320. # [17:25] <moo-_-> also I think it is not that big thing to modify h5bp
1321. # [17:25] <moo-_-> if you cannot do that then maybe web development is not yet ready for you
1322. # [17:25] <divya> the point is to ship sensible defaults.
1323. # [17:26] <moo-_-> I find sensible that if I click index.html on my hard disk it works :)
1324. # [17:26] <divya> and i have a concern this relative url defaults is not as sensible as we thought it was.
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1326. # [17:26] <divya> moo-_-: thats not how most people use webpages.
1327. # [17:26] <divya> and i think it is worth having this discussion again on the issue tracker so if you got arguments it would be good to post them to that.
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1331. # [17:29] <aibo> in the meantime i jsut figured out it hasn't anything to do with h5bp... it's a pure apache problem
1332. # [17:30] <moo-_-> aibo: good
1333. # [17:30] <moo-_-> :)
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1338. # [17:33] <aibo> thanks anyway :)
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1342. # [17:44] <aibo> lol <base href="domain.com"/> does the job :D
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1406. # [19:11] <Jon47> ah, good ol base tag
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1468. # [20:09] <davidmurdoch> What methods do you all use to test on an iPhone without actually owning one?
1469. # [20:09] * Joins: obert- (~obert@host99-207-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
1470. # [20:09] <Guest__> change your user-agent
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1472. # [20:10] <Guest__> you can get some plugins in most browser to do that
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1475. # [20:12] <davidmurdoch> Are there any good iPhone emulators?
1476. # [20:13] <Guest__> iPhone simulator on Mac OS X
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1542. # [21:37] <eduardomart> I've been using 3 file formats for video, ogg, webm and mp4. WebM seems to be the most acceptable in size/quality, is there a way to compress .ogg and mp4 files further?
1543. # [21:37] <eduardomart> while a webm file is 9mb, the others are somewhere between 25-35mb
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1547. # [21:40] <daleharvey> ok, so where is the best person to find an indexed db expert? :D
1548. # [21:41] <StoneCypher> what's the actual question
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1550. # [21:43] <daleharvey> very strange, the test suite is passing today, no questions yet, apart from where is best to ask about idb still
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1553. # [21:45] <daleharvey> actually, might as well fix firefox support while I am asking, so https://github.com/mikeal/pouchdb/blob/master/src/pouch.js#L335 is throwing a "Data provided to an operation does not meet requirements." error, the data is a simple {foo:"bar"} object
1554. # [21:46] <daleharvey> I will make up a quick test case
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1577. # [22:03] <daleharvey> ok, tiny test case - http://junk.arandomurl.com/test.html
1578. # [22:03] <daleharvey> works fine in chrome, dies in firefox
1579. # [22:04] * necolas__ is now known as necolas
1580. # [22:05] * daleharvey that particular example doesnt work fine in chrome, but in general it all does
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1631. # [23:05] <danielfilho> damn google. can't stop playing the i/o game :/
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1633. # [23:08] <eduardomart> if I use the <video> tag and 3 different sources, will each browser pick the first one it supports?
1634. # [23:08] <eduardomart> I would like to have most people load the webm version as it's the smallest filesize
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1700. # Session Close: Wed Mar 14 00:00:00 2012

The end :)