/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-03-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 27 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  58. # [01:28] <tw2113> paul_irish duck duck go gave me warning that your site may be unsafe
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  94. # [02:24] <randy_live> How do I implement vertical scroll bars?
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  112. # [03:03] <daleharvey> fun problem, I need a way to uniquely identify someones browser, in a way that isnt going to be changing constantly, doesnt require external storage
  113. # [03:03] <daleharvey> I am implementing couchdb in the browser, couchdb does replication, part of that means that means couchdb knowing who it is syncing with so the sync doesnt start from 0 every time
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  133. # [03:34] <abnormalex> hey does anyone know a color picker eyedrop thing I can get the color from an image online?
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  135. # [03:37] <gde33> abnormalex: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/colorzilla/
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  139. # [03:40] <abnormalex> thanks gde33
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  158. # [04:11] <Low_> oi
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  199. # [05:25] <JonathanNeal> Hello!
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  299. # [08:59] <AbstractAce> Hello
  300. # [08:59] <AbstractAce> can someone here help me fix validation issues ;)
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  319. # [09:22] <martisj> is there a "good" way to style file input buttons? While keeping the filename box intact?
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  321. # [09:26] <gnarf> martisj: not consistently that I'm aware of - I always end up using something like plupload
  322. # [09:26] <martisj> gnarf: plupload.... Plugin for jquery?
  323. # [09:26] <gnarf> even then, if it falls all the way down to html4 file inputs, it looks like crap
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  325. # [09:26] <gnarf> martisj: plupload abstracts a flash, silverlight, html5, etc methods
  326. # [09:26] <martisj> gnarf: hmmmmph
  327. # [09:26] <martisj> not good
  328. # [09:26] <martisj> gnarf: that's pretty intense
  329. # [09:27] <martisj> thanks though gnarf
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  333. # [09:33] <AbstractAce> eh
  334. # [09:33] <AbstractAce> plugins
  335. # [09:33] <AbstractAce> :(
  336. # [09:33] <AbstractAce> Martijnc, you could try button{} in css
  337. # [09:34] <AbstractAce> sorry that was for martisj
  338. # [09:36] <martisj> AbstractAce: thanks :D
  339. # [09:36] <martisj> i do have something that sort of works but it's not ideal.
  340. # [09:36] <martisj> lemme jsfiddle it
  341. # [09:36] <AbstractAce> sure :)
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  343. # [09:37] <AbstractAce> a friend told me that its not completely possible to style file input buttons, martisj maybe you could use a simple text field with a button nearby it
  344. # [09:37] <AbstractAce> and then use jquery to check for focus on it and then show a browse option and get the file name
  345. # [09:37] <AbstractAce> pass that onto upload script via iframe, and then upload it.
  346. # [09:37] <AbstractAce> its a crazy workaround
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  348. # [09:38] <martisj> AbstractAce: yepp a little bit too crazy for my client. He needs it ASAP
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  350. # [09:39] <AbstractAce> Plugin will do the trick then, unless you're someone who does not feel satisfied without coding it yourself(like me)
  351. # [09:40] <martisj> AbstractAce: I'm fine with plugins
  352. # [09:40] <AbstractAce> Take a look at uploadify then
  353. # [09:40] <martisj> usually there are a lot of smart people out there on the interwebs
  354. # [09:41] <AbstractAce> im going to come up with a workaround for multi file upload over http :_)
  355. # [09:41] <AbstractAce> :)
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  358. # [09:45] <AbstractAce> martisj, wanna come over to ##ide
  359. # [09:45] * Joins: pradeepbv (~pradeepbv@nat/yahoo/x-mdbjlfsqhzhhizib)
  360. # [09:45] <AbstractAce> might know a few guys who can help you out ;)
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  362. # [09:46] <martisj> AbstractAce: thanks
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  375. # [09:55] <josh_> anyone know why the transparency slider in dev tools stopped working?
  376. # [09:56] <josh_> when you're on a colour
  377. # [09:56] <josh_> im on dev channel
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  380. # [09:59] <josh_> paul_irish: know anything about this?
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  387. # [10:13] <mike5w3c> AbstractAce: what kind of validation issues?
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  390. # [10:15] <AbstractAce> Line 25, column 15: Stray doctype.
  391. # [10:15] <AbstractAce> <!DOCTYPE html>
  392. # [10:16] <mike5w3c> URL?
  393. # [10:17] <mike5w3c> which validator are you using?
  394. # [10:18] <AbstractAce> W3C
  395. # [10:19] <AbstractAce> dunno how ic an give you a link, i validated from direct input
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  404. # [10:29] <AbstractAce> mike5w3c,
  405. # [10:30] <mike5w3c> AbstractAce: try http://validator.nu/
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  407. # [10:30] <mike5w3c> or http://validator.w3.org/nu/
  408. # [10:30] <mike5w3c> if you've not already
  409. # [10:31] <AbstractAce> are you good at php mike5w3c, i have some js code coming from a php file write before the DOCTYPE :|
  410. # [10:31] <mike5w3c> hmm
  411. # [10:31] <mike5w3c> don't do that
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  415. # [10:32] <mike5w3c> don't write anything before the doctype
  416. # [10:32] <AbstractAce> mike5w3c, im not, its supposed to come out when the function is called
  417. # [10:32] <AbstractAce> but its coming without calling the function for some reason :(
  418. # [10:32] <mike5w3c> ah
  419. # [10:32] <mike5w3c> well no I am not good at php
  420. # [10:32] <AbstractAce> how do i send you a link from validator.nu
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  422. # [10:33] <mike5w3c> I would recommend to consider solving your problem by not using php
  423. # [10:33] <mike5w3c> but that's just me
  424. # [10:33] <AbstractAce> i need php for server side stuff :3
  425. # [10:33] <mike5w3c> yeah, I gathered that much
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  427. # [10:34] <mike5w3c> I can't help you with that part
  428. # [10:34] <AbstractAce> now how can i give you that link
  429. # [10:34] <AbstractAce> to the validator
  430. # [10:34] <AbstractAce> hiya xec
  431. # [10:34] <xec> hey :)
  432. # [10:35] <mike5w3c> there's not really any way to link to the validator results that way
  433. # [10:35] <mike5w3c> but the validator is not the problem here
  434. # [10:35] <mike5w3c> it's telling you what you need to hear
  435. # [10:35] <mike5w3c> which is, you can't have 24 lines of whatever before the doctype
  436. # [10:35] <AbstractAce> i really need to stop that bastard php from outputting stuff before my doc type
  437. # [10:35] <mike5w3c> yeah
  438. # [10:36] <mike5w3c> you might try using the version of php that's called "python"
  439. # [10:37] <mike5w3c> that one is more boring, with fewer bizarre surprises
  440. # [10:37] <AbstractAce> right i have various js functions of the same name in different php functions
  441. # [10:37] <AbstractAce> i just renamed them all, to see which is the culprit, i have him now
  442. # [10:38] <AbstractAce> mike5w3c, i think i'll move to python and then to java once i have a good understanding of oop in php and js
  443. # [10:38] <mike5w3c> oh man
  444. # [10:39] <AbstractAce> what
  445. # [10:40] <AbstractAce> aha
  446. # [10:40] <AbstractAce> fixed it :)
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  449. # [10:44] <AbstractAce> mike5w3c, The language attribute on the script element is obsolete. You can safely omit it.
  450. # [10:44] <mike5w3c> yup
  451. # [10:44] <mike5w3c> hey, I actually wrote those words
  452. # [10:44] <mike5w3c> nice to see them being put to good use
  453. # [10:45] <AbstractAce> what do you mean?
  454. # [10:45] <mike5w3c> AbstractAce: browsers don't pay any attention to the language attribute
  455. # [10:45] <AbstractAce> you mean type=''
  456. # [10:45] <mike5w3c> eh?
  457. # [10:45] <AbstractAce> what is the language attribute here?
  458. # [10:45] <AbstractAce> <script> ?
  459. # [10:46] <mike5w3c> the language attribute is sometimes also known as the language attribute
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  461. # [10:47] <AbstractAce> mike5w3c, check what you just said lol
  462. # [10:47] <AbstractAce> X = X is what you just said.
  463. # [10:47] <AbstractAce> o.o
  464. # [10:47] <mike5w3c> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/obsolete.html#attr-script-language
  465. # [10:48] <AbstractAce> you made this validator mike5w3c ?
  466. # [10:48] <mike5w3c> no
  467. # [10:48] <mike5w3c> Henri SIvonen made it
  468. # [10:48] <mike5w3c> I just add stuff now and then that breaks it
  469. # [10:49] <AbstractAce> lol :)
  470. # [10:50] <AbstractAce> mike5w3c, oh the language attribute, i did not put that in :(
  471. # [10:50] <AbstractAce> wait s ec
  472. # [10:50] <AbstractAce> wait a sec*
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  474. # [10:52] <AbstractAce> mike5w3c, i tell people that i hate validating but i secretly love it
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  478. # [10:55] <AbstractAce> hey mike5w3c can you help me fix this Error: An body start tag seen but an element of the same type was already open.
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  486. # [10:57] <mike5w3c> AbstractAce: if you give me the URL for your source I'd be glad to help
  487. # [10:57] <mike5w3c> make a gist or something
  488. # [10:58] <AbstractAce> i wish i could, this dialup thing is really fustrating
  489. # [10:58] <AbstractAce> frustrating*
  490. # [10:58] <AbstractAce> indiak dial up = 5kb/sec
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  507. # [11:39] <jayflux> is the colorpicker broken for anyone else in chrome dev/canary
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  553. # [12:58] <AbstractAce> hello i have a button
  554. # [12:58] <AbstractAce> i want to set it to be able to take users to another page
  555. # [12:58] <AbstractAce> i can do this with an href, but then validation fails
  556. # [12:59] <AbstractAce> mike5w3c, any solution mate?
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  567. # [13:07] <xec> AbstractAce: http://www.htmlgoodies.com/tutorials/buttons/article.php/3478871/So-You-Want-A-Link-Button-Huh.htm
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  572. # [13:13] <AbstractAce> xec, will that give me validation error
  573. # [13:14] <xec> i don't know, i just googled it. try it and see ;)
  574. # [13:14] <xec> reading it now, it looks a bit dated
  575. # [13:14] <AbstractAce> ive been there before, i just did not think its a perfect solution..
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  577. # [13:15] <AbstractAce> besides, i believe it requires that button be a part of a form
  578. # [13:15] <xec> well, <button> isn't a link
  579. # [13:15] <xec> but if you make it submit a form you could make it act like one
  580. # [13:15] <xec> javascript would do the trick as well
  581. # [13:16] <xec> but if you want a link, i'd recommend you use <a>
  582. # [13:16] <xec> you can style it to look like a button
  583. # [13:16] <AbstractAce> but js for navbar, too mainstream
  584. # [13:16] <AbstractAce> :(
  585. # [13:16] <AbstractAce> xec, been trying and failing
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  588. # [13:17] <AbstractAce> xec, i will give you the button css, can you edit it to work with a
  589. # [13:17] <AbstractAce> a certain a class that is
  590. # [13:18] <xec> i'm in the middle of some work, but if you put up a fiddle i'll check it out
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  594. # [13:22] <AbstractAce> xec, is it possible for an element to have two classes
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  596. # [13:25] <xec> yes
  597. # [13:25] <xec> <a class="classOne classTwo">
  598. # [13:27] <AbstractAce> ah fuck
  599. # [13:29] <daleharvey> so I have a library that has a bunch of external dependancies, jquery etc
  600. # [13:29] <AbstractAce> FMFML
  601. # [13:30] <daleharvey> when I package it obviously I dont want anything to leak, I am guessing just wrapping the whole thing in a closure is good enough for that?
  602. # [13:31] <AbstractAce> daleharvey, define "leak"
  603. # [13:32] <daleharvey> I dont want to overwrite any similiar libraries like jquery thay they have already included
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  659. # [14:55] <AbstractAce> Hello
  660. # [14:55] <AbstractAce> while validating i get this error
  661. # [14:56] <AbstractAce> Error: Start tag a seen in table.
  662. # [14:56] <AbstractAce> im not sure how to fix it
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  789. # [17:49] <JonathanNeal> Hi. :)
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  810. # [18:13] <evasivx> Hey guys, is it wrong to use <section> and <footer> etc as "divs" for content, IE: assigning id's and classes to them? Or should i put them above the styled divs
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  813. # [18:14] <ben225> evasivx: no, its not wrong at all that's what they are there for
  814. # [18:15] <evasivx> ben225, thank you. I ask because i just read an article specifically saying not to on Webdesigner Depot (a fairly reputible source)
  815. # [18:15] <_zoggy_> it depends, there are pros and cons to it. they talk about it on the h5bp
  816. # [18:15] * Parts: manuchill (~mstalfoor@83.232.96.217) ("Ex-Chat")
  817. # [18:16] <ben225> evasivx: Well I wouldn't understand why not, as long as you are using something like Modernizr and html5 boilerplate, I wouldn't worry too much about it
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  819. # [18:16] <ben225> but as _zoggy_ said, there are a lot of differing opinions
  820. # [18:16] <ben225> some embrace html5 syntax more than others.
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  822. # [18:16] <evasivx> ben225, _zoggy_ , Alright, well it's just for simple static sites and occasionally joomla templates. No big web apps
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  824. # [18:17] <_zoggy_> All current browsers, except Internet Explorer 8 and below, support the use of the new HTML5 elements (e.g., <header>, <footer>, <nav>, <article>, <section>, etc.). However, they aren't always mapped to accessibility APIs as the HTML5 spec requires.
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  826. # [18:17] <ben225> +1 for _zoggy_'s response
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  828. # [18:18] <ben225> that's where using tools like modernizr or html5shiv help
  829. # [18:18] <_zoggy_> yes
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  831. # [18:18] <ben225> how much do you care about legacy support, is a big factor as well
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  834. # [18:18] <evasivx> ben225, for this specific client, a lot.
  835. # [18:19] * evasivx goes and removes all the section tags
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  838. # [18:20] <ben225> evasivx: you don't necessarily need to do that, look more into modernizr and what it does; honestly, if you are building in html5 and not familiar with modernizr, you are losing a lot of time
  839. # [18:20] <ben225> I'll either get flame or praise for that statement, but I believe it
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  841. # [18:20] <paul_irish> praise++
  842. # [18:20] <ben225> there you go, from paul_irish himself :)
  843. # [18:21] <evasivx> Hmmm, definetly going to take a look
  844. # [18:21] <ben225> evasivx: check out paul_irish's boilerplate & modernizr, it will save you months of troubleshooting
  845. # [18:22] <evasivx> Thanks guys :) I was hesitant at first to really investigate html5 and was putting it off. I'm learning so much lately
  846. # [18:24] <ben225> evasivx: http://html5boilerplate.com/ | http://www.modernizr.com/ - yes modernizr will come with boilerplate soo long as you don't deselect it; but you really ought to see the documentation on the site to know how to use it
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  856. # [18:33] <ben225> evasivx: this will be my last comment, but there is really no reason why you shouldn't/couldn't be using features of html5; but like anything in development, if you choose to use a feature of it, know why you are doing so, and know the benefits and drawbacks (if any) that come with it. HTML5 has become a bit of an unknown 'buzz word', remember simply declaring <!doctype html> makes your site html5.
  857. # [18:33] <ben225> swapping div tags for <header> <footer> <nav> <article> <section>, hardly makes your site the type of 'html5' site you are looking for. What most people think of HTML5 is more often than not a combination of html5, css3, and jquery. Each equally as important as the next; sounds like you could benefit from checking out a site like: http://beta.theexpressiveweb.com/ to see a few examples of features out
  858. # [18:33] <ben225> there. There is a lot of research and tools out there, have fun. If you are starting from scratch, you may even want to check out http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/ It's a lot to swallow, but they are doing some really cool things there
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  861. # [18:37] <evasivx> ben225, wow man, I really appreciate it. Thank you! I'm hired as a webdeveloper in my city right now. But i'm used to pumping out sites quick for clients with their demographics being older people so i haven't been able to convince myself to learn new technologies for awhile. Thanks for the great starting point
  862. # [18:37] <evasivx> added this channel to my autojoin list too :P
  863. # [18:39] <ben225> evasivx: np
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  885. # [19:05] <evasivx> paul_irish, funny how I just learned about Modernizr in here and moments after had people tweet about it on my feed haha
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  888. # [19:09] <paul_irish> :)
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  906. # [19:31] <jarek> when authoring SVG documents, is it a good practice to use inline styles all over the place?
  907. # [19:33] <jarek> I have noticed that this is what all graphical designers are doing
  908. # [19:33] <jarek> not sure if they are doing it right or they are just lazy
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  929. # [20:08] <fariseo> i need a simple 100x100 grid (table?), that would get updated every second with numbers, would that kill the browser?
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  931. # [20:08] <Jon47> fariseo don't see why it needs to
  932. # [20:09] <Jon47> but do you really need it to update every second
  933. # [20:09] <fariseo> simple answer: yes
  934. # [20:09] <jarek> fariseo: it should peform well assuming that you will avoid reflows
  935. # [20:09] <fariseo> what are reflows?
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  937. # [20:10] <jarek> fariseo: reflows happen when the browser has to re-render the entire page (or big junk of it)
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  939. # [20:11] <_zoggy_> if you are just updating text in a div/span then thats nothing
  940. # [20:11] <fariseo> ok, and i would be using the table element? there's no grid element, or?
  941. # [20:11] <jarek> yeah, if you are changing the text with $element.textContent then it should be very fast
  942. # [20:11] <_zoggy_> if that text is in a table... and it has to recompute the width.. then that could be less than desirble
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  945. # [20:12] <_zoggy_> there is a grid in an upcoming jquery ui.. but not out offically yet
  946. # [20:12] <jarek> jQuery UI sucks
  947. # [20:12] <_zoggy_> tons of frameworks have grids.. but depending on your use.. it sounds like its giong to be over kill
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  949. # [20:13] <_zoggy_> dunno why you hate jui, but you dont have to use it if you dont want to
  950. # [20:14] <fariseo> i really just need a 100x100 cells, command to update them, and pick clicks on the cells
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  955. # [20:14] <jarek> fariseo: what kind of app are you writing?
  956. # [20:15] <fariseo> i already have it, in python
  957. # [20:15] <jarek> fariseo: some sort of puzzle solver?
  958. # [20:15] <fariseo> i was just thinking i could rewrite the gui in html5 :)
  959. # [20:15] <jarek> fariseo: but what does the app do?
  960. # [20:15] <fariseo> displays betting odds
  961. # [20:15] <jarek> fariseo: there are many HTML5 apis, perhaps using tables is not the best choice
  962. # [20:16] <jarek> aahh, I see, then HTML table should be enough
  963. # [20:16] <fariseo> and those apis wouldnt use tables?
  964. # [20:16] <Jon47> tables are fine if it's really tabular data
  965. # [20:16] <jarek> fariseo: you could use e.g. SVG image
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  967. # [20:16] <jarek> fariseo: or draw the table with Canvas
  968. # [20:16] <Jon47> is the data organized by column and row?
  969. # [20:17] <jarek> but this would probably be an overkill in you case
  970. # [20:17] <fariseo> what woudl APIs use to display tabular data?
  971. # [20:18] <jarek> fariseo: you should use <table> element for that
  972. # [20:18] <jarek> fariseo: or a bunch of divs with "display: table" style
  973. # [20:18] <fariseo> whats taht jquery ui using for it's grid?
  974. # [20:19] <jarek> fariseo: I guess they are using some spaghetti JS code
  975. # [20:19] <Jon47> grids prolly use divs
  976. # [20:19] <Jon47> see bootstrap: http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/scaffolding.html#gridSystem
  977. # [20:19] <jarek> Jon47: that's gay :/
  978. # [20:19] * jacine is now known as jacine|afk
  979. # [20:20] <jarek> Jon47: those are a bunch of divs with floats
  980. # [20:20] <Jon47> jarek.. bootstrap is *gay*?!
  981. # [20:20] <jarek> Jon47: yeah, those are not grids :P
  982. # [20:21] <Jon47> ok but as a favor to me can you avoid using the adjective 'gay' to mean "crappy"
  983. # [20:21] <jarek> Jon47: if I meant crappy I would say it's crappy
  984. # [20:22] <fariseo> what is google.doc using for it's spreadsheet?
  985. # [20:22] <jarek> fariseo: even more spaghetti JS code
  986. # [20:22] <jarek> fariseo: because they have to support the legacy browsers
  987. # [20:24] <fariseo> can you find a table example somewhre, that is being dynamically updated?
  988. # [20:26] <jarek> fariseo: should the table have the fixed number of cells and rows?
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  991. # [20:26] <fariseo> yes, nothing will have to be re-drawn
  992. # [20:26] <jarek> fariseo: then you just write the table markup in HTML file, add some classes
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  995. # [20:27] <jarek> fariseo: e.g. if your table cell has class "blah" then you can update it like this: "document.querySelector('.blah').textContent = 'This is new content'"
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  997. # [20:28] <fariseo> so i would have 10k classes? :)
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  1001. # [20:28] <jarek> fariseo: if you are going to have 10k cells then you should probably generate them with JS
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  1007. # [20:29] <fariseo> ok, but once it's loades, you're sure browsers can manage to update that every second?
  1008. # [20:30] <fariseo> it loads :)
  1009. # [20:32] <jarek> fariseo: I think it should run fine if you don't cause reflows
  1010. # [20:33] <jarek> fariseo: also, you should update the cell only if the new value is different from the current value
  1011. # [20:33] <fariseo> if it runs fine, i wouldnt bother with that extra logic :)
  1012. # [20:36] <jarek> if you are targeting mobiles then you should care
  1013. # [20:37] <fariseo> it's just for me
  1014. # [20:37] <jarek> as extra CPU usage really matters
  1015. # [20:37] <fariseo> i might use it on a tablet, but then only like 30x30 would be used
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  1059. # [21:21] <synk_> hey guys.. using the html5 audio tag, on desktop browser the audio plays the entire length, on a webkit mobile browser (android) it only plays first 5 seconds.. any ideas? why a time limit on mobile?
  1060. # [21:22] <synk_> w3 only lists audio and source tags.. nothing wrt playback time
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  1080. # [21:47] <xaiki> hello people, I was wondering, is it possible to feed data to an <audio> (or video fwiw) through Javascript ?
  1081. # [21:47] <xaiki> the idea here is to try to make client side decryption of data through JS.
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  1083. # [21:59] <evasivx> paul_irish, am I calling Modernizr correctly here? Using Adobe Browserlab shows these <section>'s not being treated as <div>'s in windows IE8 =/ http://projectomni.com/nimbuswater/
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  1088. # [22:03] <evasivx> paul_irish, never mind, they cache things long, uploaded it on a different domain and it's working great!
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  1098. # [22:15] <sephr> how does <style scoped> work when it is the root node?
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  1100. # [22:16] <sephr> s/does/should/
  1101. # [22:16] <sephr> the parent element is null
  1102. # [22:17] <sephr> I would think that it should make the style not be applied at all
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  1120. # [22:51] <synk_> hey guys.. using the html5 audio tag, on desktop browser the audio plays the entire length, on a webkit mobile browser (android) it only plays first 5 seconds.. any ideas?
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  1170. # [23:40] <uf0_work> paul_irish: scratches head, what was the reasoning behind removing
  1171. # [23:41] <uf0_work> paul_irish: html {overflow-y: scroll;} from boilerplate?
  1172. # [23:41] <uf0_work> paul_irish: i found it very useful
  1173. # [23:41] <uf0_work> and i'm still using it on all my projects
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  1175. # [23:44] <Jon47> uf0_work I *believe* it was because it was no longer a BOILERPLATE thing when OSX Lion came out and removed the scrollbar as a piece of real estate in a browser window
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  1179. # [23:52] <StoneCypher> what's the scope of an html5 localStorage key? are they per-domain, per-url, global, what?
  1180. # [23:56] <manuchill> StoneCypher, my guess is per domain, maybe its mentioned here; http://html5doctor.com/storing-data-the-simple-html5-way-and-a-few-tricks-you-might-not-have-known/ ?
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  1182. # [23:57] <StoneCypher> just found it
  1183. # [23:57] <StoneCypher> it's per html5 origin
  1184. # [23:57] <StoneCypher> that is, protocol+domain+port
  1185. # [23:57] <manuchill> ah, nice
  1186. # [23:58] <philihp_> hmm, so it's prob not shared among subdomains
  1187. # [23:58] <philihp_> which is a good thing
  1188. # [23:59] <StoneCypher> it is shared among subdomains according to http://htmlui.com/blog/2011-08-23-5-obscure-facts-about-html5-localstorage.html
  1189. # [23:59] <StoneCypher> domain, not fqdn
  1190. # Session Close: Wed Mar 28 00:00:00 2012

The end :)