/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-03-29 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Mar 29 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:36] <fariseo> i know this is stupid... fariseo.net/UI.html < if you keep pressing that inzert.text button fast, it's quite cpu intensive...
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# [00:37] <fariseo> any other element i could use, to be less cpu intensive?
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# [00:37] <fariseo> and why doesnt it work in IE? :)
# [00:38] <fariseo> wait, it does, but not when i run it locally, wtf :)
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# [00:46] <sssilver> Hello gentlemen
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# [00:47] <sssilver> in html5, what tag would you put the top "tools | settings | logout" links in?
# [00:47] <sssilver> <section>?
# [00:47] <sssilver> or just <div>?
# [00:47] <edwardbc_> nav i think
# [00:47] * edwardbc_ is now known as edwardbc
# [00:48] <sssilver> edwardbc: isn't nav for the main navigation?
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# [00:48] <sssilver> and search engines perceive it that way?
# [00:48] <edwardbc> not necessarily the main
# [00:48] <sssilver> this is in my case something in the top right corner
# [00:49] <sssilver> OK thanks edwardbc!
# [00:49] <edwardbc> sssilver: `The nav element represents a section of a page that links to other pages or to parts within the page: a section with navigation links.`
# [00:49] <edwardbc> source: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/the-nav-element.html#the-nav-element
# [00:49] <sssilver> OK sounds like a good fit then!
# [00:49] <edwardbc> :)
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# [02:10] <KriciR> i was thinking I wanted to create what seemed like an empty glass but when you hover over it, it starts to fill from the bottom up, what do you think is the best way to do this?
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# [04:32] <austincheney_> where can i find a list of new html5 tags that do not have or use a closing tag
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# [05:15] <johnnny22> is there a way to disable the "Save Video As..." options in the browsers ?
# [05:15] <johnnny22> bah, i'll google it ;)
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# [05:51] <austincheney_> http://prettydiff.com/ now supports HTML5 in both beautification and minification
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# [07:45] <erdos> ok so just finished reading jeremy keith's html5 for web designers.. now you can put block level elements inside a link? so does this mean that a parent can now inherit from it's child? sort of blew my mind with that little nugget
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# [07:46] <erdos> (assuming that the link is default as inline)
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# [07:52] <erdos> hurro?
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# [07:54] <runvnc> hello
# [07:55] <erdos> hi!
# [07:55] <runvnc> I don't know what you mean parent inherit from its child can you write a gist with an example
# [07:55] <runvnc> or a jsfiddle rather
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# [07:56] <erdos> 1 sec
# [07:58] <erdos> http://pastie.org/3689888
# [07:59] <erdos> so they're saying, don't worry about setting your anchor to block, just go ahead and put some block level elements in there, my question, what of the anchor? what happens to it? does it change to block because of the children inside it? because that would throw out the whole previous model
# [07:59] <erdos> i are confused
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# [08:00] <runvnc> Good question
# [08:00] <runvnc> if you put it in jsfiddle and try it in a new chrome and firefox
# [08:01] <runvnc> would the behavior of chrome and firefox be able to answer the questions
# [08:01] <erdos> okie dokie
# [08:01] <runvnc> question
# [08:01] <erdos> ummm, it's more of a conceptual question
# [08:01] <erdos> but i'll try it and see what happens
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# [08:03] <erdos> gah, i'm too used to jquery, can't remember how to access the dom without it :P
# [08:04] <erdos> hey wait jsfiddle has jquery!
# [08:04] <runvnc> yup has everything
# [08:05] <erdos> it says it's still inline... so now it's alright to have blocks inside an inline?
# [08:05] <erdos> http://jsfiddle.net/janWT/
# [08:06] <runvnc> erdos did it save my blah at the top
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# [08:07] <erdos> nope
# [08:07] <erdos> hasn't changed
# [08:07] <erdos> WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR THE BOX MODEL?!?!?!
# [08:07] <Rafaelzinho> hi
# [08:07] * erdos mind blown
# [08:08] <runvnc> maybe just pretend it said inline block
# [08:08] <runvnc> because maybe it is treating it like that?
# [08:08] <runvnc> I dunno too tired sorry
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# [08:08] <erdos> hehehe
# [08:08] <runvnc> goodnight
# [08:08] <erdos> later!
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# [08:08] <erdos> thanks for chirping
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# [09:46] <bourbaki> hidiho
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# [09:46] <bourbaki> Is there any wysiwyg editor you could recommend for html5 text processing?
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# [12:07] <moo-_-> boxing the model
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# [13:58] <niloy> how do I insert unicode character in css with unicode code point?
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# [14:14] <beasty> hi all!
# [14:14] <beasty> anyone aware of a placeholder alternative for windows mobile ?
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# [15:32] <bourbaki> Has Html5 something like macros?
# [15:33] <StoneCypher> neither c macros nor lisp macros, no
# [15:33] <StoneCypher> why would you want them
# [15:33] <StoneCypher> they don't make sense in a document context
# [15:34] <bourbaki> Ok. See your point.
# [15:34] <bourbaki> I could just use XSLT to have my own format i guess.
# [15:34] <bourbaki> I thought about using html5 instead of latex.
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# [15:36] <bourbaki> Is there something like \include (latex) in html5?
# [15:41] <StoneCypher> generally speaking, what you're asking for is the domain of links or serverside scripts
# [15:41] <StoneCypher> html isn't a programming language; it's a markup
# [15:41] <StoneCypher> it doesn't do stuff, it represents stuff
# [15:42] <StoneCypher> html doesn't act; it is the result
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# [15:43] <Armen138> 3 excellent ways to say the same thing
# [15:46] <bourbaki> Ok, so how do i do that with jsp?
# [15:46] <StoneCypher> ask a java channel
# [15:47] <bourbaki> I bet theyll send me here :)
# [15:47] <StoneCypher> 1) they won't
# [15:47] <StoneCypher> 2) who cares
# [15:47] <StoneCypher> 3) jsp is not part of html; jsp questions do not belong in html channels
# [15:47] <bourbaki> I care.
# [15:47] <StoneCypher> yeah, but we don't
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# [16:01] <bourbaki> The topic of this channel says Html5 & frieds. Isnt JS a friend of html5?
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# [16:02] <Armen138> jsp is not js
# [16:03] <bourbaki> Ok so how can i load a text with js into a html document?
# [16:03] <jarek> what's jsp?
# [16:04] <jarek> Java framework?
# [16:04] <Armen138> depends on where the text comes from. perhaps look into ajax and related topics?
# [16:04] <Armen138> jsp is javaserver pages
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# [16:04] <bourbaki> Armen138: Is there a quick start site i can have a look at?
# [16:04] <jarek> bourbaki: what are you trying to do?
# [16:05] <bourbaki> I want to write documentation with html5.
# [16:05] <jarek> bourbaki: use markdown and use documentation generator
# [16:05] <jarek> bourbaki: e.g. http://jashkenas.github.com/docco/
# [16:06] <bourbaki> Thanks let me check.
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# [16:07] <jarek> bourbaki: what kind of documentation is that?
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# [16:07] <jarek> bourbaki: Docco is meant to be used for programming code docs
# [16:08] <StoneCypher> pity it's so ugly
# [16:08] <StoneCypher> someone buy that guy a book on text design
# [16:08] <StoneCypher> also it seems to be written by someone who's touting golden hammers
# [16:08] <StoneCypher> extractable docs can't be literate programming, by definition
# [16:08] <StoneCypher> whoever wrote that has never read the book
# [16:09] <StoneCypher> and is just repeating a phrase they heard (probably on Reddit)
# [16:09] <bourbaki> I think im most likely going to use docbook and then convert it into html5 or latex.
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# [16:11] <jarek> StoneCypher: "extractable docs can't be literate programming, by definition"
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# [16:11] <jarek> StoneCypher: you mean the code should not be commented at all?
# [16:11] <jarek> or should the comments be written in such way that you can't generate docs from them?
# [16:11] <jarek> I don't understand what you mean
# [16:12] <StoneCypher> [10:04] <jarek> StoneCypher: you mean the code should not be commented at all?
# [16:12] <StoneCypher> where did you possibly get that idea
# [16:12] <StoneCypher> "apples can't be oranges, by definition." "you mean you should never have an orange?"
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# [16:12] <jarek> StoneCypher: Docco uses MarkDown which is almost like writting plain text comments
# [16:12] <StoneCypher> hooray
# [16:13] <bourbaki> StoneCypher: What where you here for again?
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# [16:14] <jwktje> Hey Guys. I have an unordered list. Is there a way to exclude 1 of the <li> elements from the counter with CSS or HTML?
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# [16:14] <StoneCypher> "but #css didn't answer"
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# [16:15] <Jon47> jwktje i can't think of any way to do it without writing your own numbers
# [16:16] <Jon47> but if you want to keep the numbers out of the markup you can use pseudo-elements
# [16:16] <StoneCypher> it's quite easy
# [16:16] <StoneCypher> ::before has very little support
# [16:16] <Jon47> IE8 and up supports :before
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# [16:16] <Jon47> pretty much every other major browser supports it for the last couple major versions at least
# [16:17] <jarek> jwktje: I suspect it might be possible with CSS3, but I'm not really sure
# [16:17] <Jon47> unfortunately you gotta use :before and not ::before in IE8, but every other browser treats it fine
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# [16:17] <jarek> jwktje: check http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/
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# [16:17] <evasivx> IE8 support :before?
# [16:17] <evasivx> nice :)
# [16:17] <Jon47> indeed
# [16:17] <jwktje> Then I should write a css counter and number the elements with :before
# [16:17] <jwktje> That should work :)
# [16:18] <jarek> maybe something like li:first-child::marker { content: '' }
# [16:18] <jarek> could work
# [16:18] <Jon47> ooh ya that's a good thought
# [16:18] <jarek> if it's supported by any browser, I have never used it myself
# [16:19] <Jon47> jwktje: why don't you want the numbers in the markup?
# [16:19] <StoneCypher> jesus
# [16:19] <StoneCypher> look at you people
# [16:19] <Jon47> if they're not exactly sequential they may have some significance
# [16:19] <StoneCypher> just go set the damn number
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# [16:19] <Jon47> StoneCypher, i'm taking a break to hang out in the channel, just chill
# [16:19] <StoneCypher> stop trying to hack around something that's straightforward just because you don't know how and don't want to go look it up
# [16:20] <StoneCypher> Jon47: no, you're giving bad advice
# [16:20] <jwktje> StoneCypher you make a good point
# [16:20] <jwktje> Javascript it is then :P
# [16:20] <StoneCypher> that's even worse
# [16:20] <StoneCypher> just go do it right ffs
# [16:20] <jwktje> Just joking, calm down
# [16:20] <Jon47> StoneCypher i'm offering many pieces of conflicting advice, trying to be objective and explain why I suggested it
# [16:21] <Jon47> so he can make a decision not just because someone on IRC suggested it, but because he understands the issue
# [16:21] <Jon47> if he asked the question then he's interestd in the answers
# [16:21] <Jon47> if you're not interested in them, then go get a cup of coffee or something
# [16:21] <StoneCypher> [10:13] <Jon47> StoneCypher i'm offering many pieces of conflicting advice
# [16:21] <StoneCypher> all of them bad
# [16:21] <StoneCypher> so
# [16:21] <StoneCypher> it doesn't really matter that they're also internally inconsistent
# [16:21] <Jon47> you're a pedant
# [16:22] <jwktje> Jon47 Thanks I am. I'm looking for a new look on the problem
# [16:22] <StoneCypher> i'm not really interested in your stream of personal attacks, meant to distract people from noticing your errors
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# [16:22] <StoneCypher> if you give advice in irc, expect to be criticized when it's wrong. it's that simple.
# [16:22] <Jon47> you seem highly interested int hem
# [16:22] <StoneCypher> no, i'm interested in saving jwktje from getting bad advice.
# [16:22] <StoneCypher> listen, enough meta
# [16:22] <Jon47> alright what's the one true answer
# [16:22] <StoneCypher> who said there was one?
# [16:23] <StoneCypher> there's a big gap between "the thing you just said is wrong" and "all problems can be solved by one single approach"
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# [16:23] <Jon47> <StoneCypher>: just go do it right ffs
# [16:23] <StoneCypher> stop trying to steer, charlie.
# [16:23] <StoneCypher> you make a whole lot of noise for someone who isn't reading at all.
# [16:23] <jwktje> Right the problem I get is that I use a javascript plugin that adds an extra <li> to make a highlight box while i'm dragging another <li>. I don't want the Highlighting <li> to be counted in the <ol>
# [16:23] <StoneCypher> if you want to know what matches that, look upwards, Jon47
# [16:24] <Jon47> you are blustering a lot but you haven't actually suggested an answer
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# [16:24] <StoneCypher> and if you don't, then be quiet, please, because i was trying to talk to someone else, and you're scrolling away things that were said to not-you with your temper tantrum
# [16:24] <StoneCypher> i have
# [16:24] <StoneCypher> that you can't find it isn't interesting.
# [16:24] <StoneCypher> be quiet now, thanks.
# [16:24] <jwktje> StoneCypher Should I just try and change the javascript so it uses something other than a <li> to highlight?
# [16:25] <Jon47> "just go set the damn number"? what does that mean
# [16:25] <jwktje> I think just typing it out. But then it's not dynamic.
# [16:25] <jwktje> There's the problem
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# [16:26] <jwktje> The increment does still need to be 1, but while dragging I don't want it to count the addional <li>
# [16:26] <jwktje> *additional
# [16:26] <StoneCypher> well, if neither of you can be bothered to read upwards
# [16:26] <StoneCypher> then feel free to guess wrongly at what i meant.
# [16:26] * StoneCypher is bored of the tantrum and goes away
# [16:26] <StoneCypher> i actually did quite clearly say what to do
# [16:26] <StoneCypher> but you two have fun going "i think he meant the cathedral in riennes"
# [16:26] <StoneCypher> "yeah but i think he meant the feeling of love"
# [16:26] <StoneCypher> what i meant is written down
# [16:26] <StoneCypher> stop being lazy.
# [16:27] <StoneCypher> or, do it a ridiculous way, if you'd prefer to just not find it.
# [16:27] <StoneCypher> no skin off my teeth.
# [16:29] <jarek> when I open https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/element.classList
# [16:29] <jarek> all code example are cut off
# [16:29] <jarek> s/example/examples
# [16:29] <jarek> is there a MDN mirror somewhere?
# [16:29] <Jon47> jwktje: can your "non" list-item element just be a span? I dunno if it's valid markup to have anything besides a list-item or another list inside a list
# [16:30] <jwktje> Jon47 I could try that. That would mean editing the Javascript to use a block element inside the <li>
# [16:30] <jwktje> That would work but I'll check the validity of that before I make it definite
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# [16:30] <jwktje> Jon47 *instead of the <li> i mean
# [16:31] <Jon47> word, good luck sir
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# [16:31] <jwktje> Jon47 Cheers
# [16:31] <Jon47> the only thing to watch out for is some browsers might move it outside the list
# [16:31] <Jon47> i've come across issues where firefox moves div elements outside of ps, for example
# [16:31] <Jon47> when it encounters the opening div tag inside a p tag, it decides that you meant to close the p
# [16:32] <Jon47> and the actual closing p tag is discarded
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# [16:32] <Jon47> that's only if it's invalid though, i can't find any documentation that specifies it clearly right now
# [16:32] <jwktje> I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I have a feeling it will probably work just fine :)
# [16:32] <Jon47> coolio
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# [16:36] <StoneCypher> yes, good luck with that counter. truly difficult stuff that requires invalid markup
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# [16:40] <jwktje> StoneCypher Thanks! :D
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# [16:51] <jwktje> StoneCypher Lol you where right al along. Eventhough you we're mad, you had a reason hahaha
# [16:51] <jwktje> It's fixed now. Thanks
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# [17:41] <Jon47> stonecypher is it invalid to have anything besides an <li> as a child of a <ul>? I looked around for a bit but couldn't find anything conclusive
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# [17:42] <evasivx> Jon47, I'd also like to know, i'm going to be using a dropdown menu that can hold div's in ul's
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# [17:49] <edwardbc> afaik, you would need to add those divs inside the <li>
# [17:50] <edwardbc> <ul> direct childs should be list items
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# [18:04] <Jon47> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/grouping-content.html#the-ul-element
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# [18:05] <Jon47> 0 or more <li> elements
# [18:05] <Jon47> that's it
# [18:05] <Jon47> so yep, that suggests it would be invalid
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# [19:42] <tw2113> cgcardona you'll be elated shortly
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# [19:42] <cgcardona> because?
# [19:42] <tw2113> for my next phone, i'm heavily considering 4S
# [19:43] <cgcardona> :-D good choice
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# [19:43] <cgcardona> when are you due for an upgrade?
# [19:43] <tw2113> in part because i think it'd be a nice mini-shakeup for me
# [19:44] <tw2113> and in part because i am hearing a lot of negative press regarding carriers + upgrading their sets with newest android stuff
# [19:44] <tw2113> and just a lot of havoc and disorder with android
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# [19:44] <tw2113> i think I was due in february or so? but had to take care of other bills first
# [19:45] <tw2113> so it's just pending at the moment
# [19:46] <tw2113> plus the 16gb would be $100 less than the one i was originally eying for upgrade
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# [19:47] <newz2000> Here's my request for future versions of HTML5:
# [19:47] <newz2000> I wish we could access a user's preferred language setting client side
# [19:48] <csmrfx> So geolocation and stuff like cookies and menus wont do?
# [19:49] <newz2000> it's pretty silly to assume what language a user prefers based on where they're at
# [19:49] <newz2000> Once I visited Spain and Google turned to spanish
# [19:49] <newz2000> And I only know about 5 words in Spanish
# [19:49] <tw2113> yeah, i totally prefer plutonian, but am stuck with engrish
# [19:49] <csmrfx> I dont think it is silly, it might not be reliable
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# [19:50] <newz2000> The browser knows, because it sends the Accept-Language header on http requests
# [19:50] <csmrfx> but if someone is in Sweden it might be more likely they're speaking swedish than japanes
# [19:50] <newz2000> not nearly as reliable as just accessing the value the user has already specified
# [19:51] <newz2000> For example, if a user prefers polish but also knows spanish and english as a fallback, it'd be awesome to know that.
# [19:51] <csmrfx> I think you're not going to have multilanguage service without a proper ... service - so I dont see where you would use this peoperty
# [19:51] <newz2000> again, server side code can do this
# [19:51] <newz2000> well, as client-side templating grows in popularity it can be very useful.
# [19:52] <csmrfx> And. Feel free to feel free to freely communicate with the users of your service.
# [19:52] <newz2000> csmrfx: do you oppose the idea of being able to access this property client side?
# [19:53] <csmrfx> If you have javascript and client side templating, where is the problem with actually asking people to select a language?
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# [19:53] <newz2000> Hmm?
# [19:53] <csmrfx> I oppose piling on features using self-contradicting arguments, if something
# [19:54] <csmrfx> but mostly am just trying to follow your logic, so far without success
# [19:54] <newz2000> I can answer your question quite easily, with another question
# [19:54] <newz2000> if a user tells their browser they want language a, if not then b, if not then c
# [19:54] <newz2000> then why make them set it again for every website?
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# [19:54] <newz2000> Again, it's a piece of cake to do it server side
# [19:54] <newz2000> would be nice to have the same capability client side
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# [19:55] <csmrfx> I believe thats one of those things that is not necessarily for browser or standards organizations to decide
# [19:56] <csmrfx> but your last argument actually makes sense to me
# [19:56] <newz2000> I mention it here because I've talked to members of some of the browser dev teams here.
# [19:56] <csmrfx> also I'd think that privacy issues further muddle this issue
# [19:56] <newz2000> it's already not a privacy issue
# [19:56] <newz2000> because the header is being sent on every http request
# [19:57] <csmrfx> it's already TOTALLY a privacy issue, unless you're ignorant about what privacy is
# [19:57] <newz2000> csmrfx: be careful about calling people ignorant
# [19:57] <newz2000> whom you haven't met
# [19:57] <newz2000> your browser is sending this value to every server you access, wither on the origin domain or a banner add or whatever
# [19:58] <csmrfx> I can only say that you are very ignorant making those statements about some choice of an user not being a privacy issue
# [19:58] <newz2000> Being able to access it client side changes nothing
# [19:58] <csmrfx> whether you can deal with that reality or not :)
# [19:58] <csmrfx> I think standards bodies and browser devs already failed the public when it comes to privacy
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# [19:59] <csmrfx> newz2000: yeah, changes nothing, why not just broadcast your facebook passwords around while you're at it
# [19:59] <gdr> dat html5
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# [19:59] <newz2000> csmrfx: what are you talking about? What does that have to do in the slightest?
# [20:00] <csmrfx> Do you *not* know how browsers with javascript enabled work?
# [20:00] <newz2000> and regarding standard bodies, html5 was created because concerned people raised their voices.
# [20:00] <StoneCypher> newz2000: learn when you're arguing with a troll.
# [20:00] <newz2000> yeah, sorry
# [20:00] <newz2000> thanks StoneCypher
# [20:00] <newz2000> Anyway, I wish you could access this property client side.
# [20:00] <csmrfx> If you have js enabled you can send these supposed vars anywhere you like
# [20:01] <StoneCypher> newz2000: yeah, it's a well known and obnoxious problem
# [20:01] <csmrfx> saying that is not a privacy issue means more homework needs to be done
# [20:01] <StoneCypher> csm, please be quiet, you don't understand the problem
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# [20:01] <newz2000> The worst thing is, there is a variable that makes you think you can access the language
# [20:01] <StoneCypher> there is no privacy issue involved in being able to access locally a header that's sent with every single request
# [20:01] <newz2000> but it only tells you what language the browser version is
# [20:01] <StoneCypher> yep
# [20:01] <StoneCypher> there's also an IE-only one but it only gets the top of the stack
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# [20:03] <csmrfx> thinking there is a silver bullet along the lines of "set setting X at browser/service/application level"
# [20:03] <csmrfx> fail
# [20:03] <newz2000> Do you think there is any hope in filing bugs with the different browser dev teams?
# [20:03] <gnarf> newz2000: window.lang maybe?
# [20:03] <gnarf> something like that?
# [20:04] * newz2000 refreshes his memory
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# [20:05] <csmrfx> I thought he was talking about the browser having a locale setting, not a window specific language setting (which is trivial to do)
# [20:05] <gnarf> newz2000: navigator.language?
# [20:05] <gnarf> newz2000: http://cl.ly/3d2K141p3Y0G272d432T
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# [20:05] <newz2000> gnarf: I'm pretty sure it's not navigator.language
# [20:05] <gnarf> newz2000: http://jsconsole.com/?navigator.language
# [20:05] <newz2000> that is the one that tells you the browser's localization, not the user's preferred language
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# [20:06] <csmrfx> hm, navigator.language does return a locale
# [20:06] * newz2000 is not use to the dev tool change in firefox yet
# [20:07] <newz2000> Interetingly in ff that does work, but only shows you the top choice
# [20:07] <newz2000> which is better than nothing
# [20:07] <gnarf> newz2000: either way, i think #whatwg would be the place to drop that idea... I can see some great uses for a "specification" based "current user's locale" string
# [20:09] <newz2000> Ah, starting in gecko 5.0
# [20:10] <newz2000> I'll bet they just grab the first value in order to be backwards compatible with the prev implementations.
# [20:10] <csmrfx> dont try gneral.useragent.locale
# [20:11] <gnarf> newz2000: im bringing it up in #whatwg to see if there's any feedback
# [20:11] <newz2000> gnarf: what net is that on?
# [20:11] <gnarf> freenode
# [20:12] <newz2000> Says I'm the only one there when I join
# [20:12] <newz2000> ah, found it
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# [20:20] <newz2000> ok, here's a question.
# [20:20] <newz2000> Here's my Accept-Language string getting sent: en-gb,en-us;q=0.7,en;q=0.3
# [20:20] <newz2000> If you were going to make this easily usable from js, what would you expect the best format to be?
# [20:21] <newz2000> It's pretty easily parsed from a string, but if the browser makes wanted to make it easy, what would you like?
# [20:22] <newz2000> [['en-gb',0.7],['en-us','0.7'],['en','0.3']] is one way
# [20:22] <newz2000> then you'd know that if you just looped through it you'd get them in order
# [20:22] <newz2000> but it doesn't seem very elegant
# [20:22] <newz2000> sorry, didn't mean for those numbers to be strings in the last two
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# [20:54] <gnarf> newz2000: { "en-gb": 0.7, "en-us": 0.7, "en": 0.3 } might work too
# [20:55] <newz2000> gnarf: when looping through that though you won't necessarily get them in the right order
# [20:55] <newz2000> I could be mixing up my python and js though
# [20:55] <newz2000> oh, wait, you've made an object
# [20:56] <newz2000> gnarf: how would you find the user's most preferred language?
# [20:56] <newz2000> I also thought about [{lang:'en-gb', weight: 0.7},{lang: 'en-us', weight: 0.7},{lang:'en', weight: 0.3}];
# [20:56] <gnarf> newz2000: for ( locale in locales ) { continue; }
# [20:56] <gnarf> er break;
# [20:57] <gnarf> ?js var locales = { "en-gb": 0.7, "en-us": 0.7, "en": 0.3 }, locale; for ( locale in locales ) { break; } locale
# [20:57] <bot-t> gnarf: "en-gb"
# [20:57] <newz2000> very interesting
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# [20:57] <newz2000> This is the prob with python. The syntax is so similar and yet the results can be so different.
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# [20:58] <gnarf> newz2000: [ {locale:"en-gb", weight: 0.7} ] isn't bad either
# [20:58] <newz2000> gnarf: I'm composing my e-mail, I'll suggest them both
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# [21:01] * StoneCypher notes that whereas colliding values are legal, they're kind of silly. "you should tell the remote server which english you prefer; leaving that undefined, while not a problem, is bizarre and pointless."
# [21:02] <newz2000> yeah, the funny thing is, I didn't set those values. Instead I just get a list of languages and "move up" and "move down" buttons to change their order.
# [21:02] <StoneCypher> oh, is some neckbeard algorithm choosing that collision for you?
# [21:02] <StoneCypher> lame.
# [21:02] <newz2000> yeah. The actual value seems to be somewhat arbitrary
# [21:03] <StoneCypher> the idea that a kind of english is better than generic english, but which kind of english doesn't matter, is sort of evidence that this hasn't been thought through by the algorithm's implementor
# [21:03] <StoneCypher> no
# [21:03] <StoneCypher> the values are decinary range midpoints
# [21:03] <StoneCypher> that is, 0-0.3 is .3, .3-.7 is .4, .7-1 is .3
# [21:03] <StoneCypher> if something doesn't want a long mantissa, or is worried about float loss, those are reasonable approximations of the 1/3 and 2/3 point
# [21:04] <StoneCypher> why they aren't endpoints, dunno, but given the value collision, my faith in that implementor is low
# [21:04] <StoneCypher> i'd be willing to bet that if you added another language you'd get .75, .5, .25 or .8,.5,.2
# [21:04] <newz2000> right, the not-endpoints is what I meant by arbitrary
# [21:04] * newz2000 tries it
# [21:04] <StoneCypher> ah
# [21:04] <StoneCypher> i think they're just chopping at 1 digit (shrugs)
# [21:04] <StoneCypher> ymmv
# [21:05] <newz2000> en-gb,en-us;q=0.8,en-au;q=0.5,en;q=0.3
# [21:05] <StoneCypher> well.
# [21:05] <StoneCypher> i guess that's also valid, but i confess to surprise.
# [21:05] <StoneCypher> wonder how they ended up with ceil
# [21:05] <StoneCypher> oh, it's round on 2.5, is why
# [21:06] <StoneCypher> (round(n*10))/10)
# [21:06] <StoneCypher> ew.
# [21:06] <newz2000> I'm curious why en-us and en-gb are the same
# [21:06] <StoneCypher> beacuse whoever wrote that didn't think it through
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# [21:10] <csmrfx> Colour me european, but I doubt they are the same
# [21:10] <newz2000> well, very few apps create different locales for en-us and en-gb (or any other en for that matter)
# [21:10] <newz2000> but one app I'm making will need to.
# [21:11] <StoneCypher> csmrfx: hence the reaction that they probably shouldn't rank the same.
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# [21:11] <newz2000> As an American I thought everyone called "egg rolls" eggrolls. Turns out, all other English speakers call them "spring rolls." :-)
# [21:11] <StoneCypher> egg rolls and spring rolls are different things
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# [21:12] <newz2000> StoneCypher: are you an American?
# [21:12] <StoneCypher> i'm not sure how that's germane
# [21:12] <newz2000> Here in the US they are slightly different. In GB and AU though spring roll is a generic term for all of that.
# [21:12] <newz2000> s/GB/UK/
# [21:12] * newz2000 was surprised
# [21:13] <StoneCypher> my experience in britain was quite different.
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# [21:13] <StoneCypher> it's not common for people to confuse food from different cuisines. one is szechuan, and the other is hunan and vegetarian.
# [21:14] <StoneCypher> it's like accidentally calling a hamburger a chicken sandwich.
# [21:14] <StoneCypher> that's not a national difference.
# [21:14] <newz2000> I work for a company in the UK and I haven't found anyone who knew what I meant when I said "egg roll." After explaining they invariably asked, "so you have eggs in it?"
# [21:14] <StoneCypher> are you in a small town?
# [21:14] <newz2000> I'm in the USA (Des Moines IA). I asked people in London and one other city, can't remember now.
# [21:14] <StoneCypher> oh, that's des moines
# [21:14] <StoneCypher> you're lucky they've heard of china
# [21:15] * newz2000 raises an eyebrow
# [21:15] <StoneCypher> god help you if you want a summer roll there
# [21:15] <StoneCypher> even chinese restaurants aren't likely to know what that is in iowa
# [21:15] <newz2000> yeah, they don't have them here.
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# [21:15] <newz2000> but, we're getting off topic
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# [21:16] <StoneCypher> so yeah, that's like confusing california haute cuisine with cajun food
# [21:16] <StoneCypher> thousands of miles away, different ethnicity, different tradition
# [21:16] <newz2000> few people care to localize en-us differently than en-gb, vs en-au or just en.
# [21:16] <StoneCypher> most large corporations do
# [21:16] <StoneCypher> it matters for date formatting in particular
# [21:16] <newz2000> ah, yes, that is true, good point.
# [21:17] <StoneCypher> but in a lesser degree for units, number formatting, alternate spellings, word swaps, and to a much larger degree, everyone who does any g10n or l15n
# [21:22] <newz2000> OK, e-mail sent to whatwg http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-March/035260.html We'll see what happens.
# [21:22] <StoneCypher> oh, they know about the problem
# [21:23] <StoneCypher> they're just too busy neckbearding about whether it shoudl be fixed for five years to fix it
# [21:23] <StoneCypher> i first raised it in 2005, and i'm sure other people raised it before i did
# [21:23] <newz2000> ah
# [21:23] <newz2000> :-(
# [21:23] <StoneCypher> i mean, do mail whatwg
# [21:23] <StoneCypher> it'll teach you a lot about the people running these standards
# [21:24] <newz2000> Yes, I'm not a big fan of committees.
# [21:24] <StoneCypher> but when it comes down to it, the way this is actually going to be fixed is simple
# [21:24] <StoneCypher> one of the browser vendors that's moving towards browser-based local apps - probably microsoft, given their current metro push and their traditional view on internationalization - will scratch the itch
# [21:24] <newz2000> submit a patch?
# [21:24] <StoneCypher> then about six months of argument will occur
# [21:25] <StoneCypher> and whatwg will adopt a solution which is just barely different enough from the microsoft solution to not be interoperable, while also managing to be slightly less good
# [21:25] <StoneCypher> which, in the balance, is good enough
# [21:27] <newz2000> Too bad IE wasn't open source. Then an enterprising person could simply submit a patch to IE, FF and Chromium
# [21:27] <StoneCypher> honestly, that would have just led to 9 million forks
# [21:27] <newz2000> Well, I work for an open source company that encourages forks. It doesn't happen as often as you'd suspect
# [21:28] <newz2000> esp on bigger projects
# [21:28] <StoneCypher> ie would have been a special case.
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# [21:28] <StoneCypher> too many commercial reasons to fork.
# [21:28] <StoneCypher> "we make the secure one" "oh yeah well we make the standards compliant one" "oh yeah well ours is stable" "oh yeah well ours is for messaging"
# [21:28] <StoneCypher> etc.
# [21:28] <StoneCypher> look how many people rebranded it.
# [21:28] <StoneCypher> tell me you don't think they'd hack in garbage extensions.
# [21:28] <newz2000> I do remember in the late 90's they made it very easy to create your own browser with the same rendering engine, and dozens popped up, but eventually most died away.
# [21:29] <StoneCypher> they died away because that ability was shut off
# [21:29] <StoneCypher> they didn't voluntarily shut down
# [21:29] <StoneCypher> i mean you could still do it through mshtml, and some people still did
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# [22:12] <insulina> hello, how can I wait to a image load, I try while(!img.complete){} but firefox thinks is a bad script ... I try onload but I need to process a few images and put them in a array... but before the array is complete I have other parts of code trying to acess it...what is the best solution?
# [22:20] <Jon47> insulina jquery's .load method works pretty well for images, i've found
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# [22:36] <insulina> Jon47: isnt that the same as onload?
# [22:37] <Jon47> insulina if it's in jquery it's got a certain amount of cross-browser compatibility
# [22:37] <Jon47> but you might achieve comparable results with the onload event, i'm not really familiar with the details of it
# [22:38] <Jon47> either way - attach a load event to each of your images
# [22:38] <Jon47> and in the handler for the event, check to see if all the images have loaded, if so, then run your code
# [22:38] <Jon47> otherwise wait
# [22:39] <Jon47> insulina: I've personally found that the browser doesn't fire load events for resources that are not requested (ie, hits in the browser cache)
# [22:39] <Jon47> so you might encounter issues with that
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# [22:56] <sphinxxx> i really cannot find how to specify the order of concatenation using html5bp build script
# [22:56] <sphinxxx> the method the docs say doesn't even exist in build.xml
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# [23:03] <smallfoot-> i am trying to compare canvas drawImage() performance where the source is an img element vs where the source is a canvas
# [23:03] <smallfoot-> why this does not work, http://jsperf.com/aghfhfghfgh/2 ?
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# Session Close: Fri Mar 30 00:00:00 2012

The end :)