/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-04-14 / end

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# Session Start: Sat Apr 14 00:00:01 2012
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:34] <kingfisher64> can someone tell me if it's possible to legally obfuscate local fonts using font squirrel's @font-face generator so that I can host my own fonts? I purchased adobe font folio a while back and don't really want to be paying out again to use the same fonts on the web.
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# [00:43] <David_Bradbury> You already know the answer to that
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# [00:53] <kingfisher64> i'll take that answer David_Bradbury as a no. I thought it wasn't but i'm no expert and after having read quite a few articles regarding the issue, I came to the conclusion that it wasn't but wanted to make sure. Something about base 64 encoding, etc etc
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# [00:56] <paul_irish> kingfisher64: Web Only is for that
# [00:56] <paul_irish> but
# [00:56] <paul_irish> you do need a license to use any font in @font-face
# [00:56] <paul_irish> and looks like you dont have one
# [00:57] <paul_irish> kingfisher64: the selection on fontspring is available for purchase and ... can be used with @font-face.. and is intended for self-hosting
# [00:57] <paul_irish> so that sounds like your best option
# [00:59] <kingfisher64> paul_irish - i legally purchased font folio (single user licence from adobe) which i why I thought i'd ask. I was reading your articles Paul, very informative thanks. I think i'll go with webfonts.fonts.com option. Has 17,000+ available and a few i don't have in folio 11 as well.
# [01:00] <paul_irish> OK
# [01:00] <paul_irish> groovy :)
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# [01:03] <kingfisher64> so local obfuscation still is a no go then Paul. I was actually on your site (going to ask you) as all articles to do with font embedding lead back to you. I can't really understand why it's legal to use a service like Typekit, but not obfuscate legally purchased fonts to be served in a very similar? way to the user.
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# [01:07] <kingfisher64> paul_irish - do you think this will change any time soon - so designers will be able to make the most of their purchased fonts? I looked for a upload local font within quite a few services (typekit, fonts.webfonts, fontspring) and found no solution. I will go with the legal option but something really does need to be done about this - it's taking the micky out of the designers who do things by the book.
# Session Close: Sat Apr 14 01:10:20 2012
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# Session Start: Sat Apr 14 01:10:20 2012
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [01:11] * Topic is 'Ask any question about HTML5 & Friends || HTML5 Spec for Developers: http://developers.whatwg.org || Also: http://html5rocks.com http://diveintohtml5.info http://mzl.la/9giLwR || Channel logs: http://j.mp/cG7UDa'
# [01:11] * Set by marienz!marienz@freenode/staff/marienz on Fri Oct 21 21:53:09
# [01:11] <kingfisher64> jarek - oh how nice for them! I won quite a few adobe products but talk about trying to monopolise a market. I assume fonts.webfonts is 100% legit?
# [01:12] <kingfisher64> own not won! :)
# [01:12] <jarek> kingfisher64: what do you mean by "fonts.webfonts"?
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# [01:13] <shoky> paul_irish hi! why is html5rocks.com so slow on chrome?!
# [01:13] <paul_irish> shoky: canary?
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# [01:13] <shoky> dev
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# [01:14] <paul_irish> good question
# [01:14] <shoky> spikes to near 1GB
# [01:14] <paul_irish> lets say its a chrome bug
# [01:14] <shoky> ;) sounds good
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# [01:15] <paul_irish> shoky: where are you seeing 1gb
# [01:15] <kingfisher64> jarek - sorry time for bed i think, i'm getting my wording all wrong. :) fonts.webfonts.com - it's owned my monotype, so my questions answered.
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# [01:16] <shoky> paul: on the tab mem usage in the task manager
# [01:16] <shoky> on page load and on every single action i try to do
# [01:16] <jarek> kingfisher64: I think you meants webfonts.fonts.com
# [01:16] <jarek> s/meants/meant
# [01:16] <kingfisher64> LOL
# [01:17] <shoky> well it peaks at 800MB
# [01:17] <jarek> kingfisher64: you know about Google Fonts Directory? http://www.google.com/webfonts
# [01:17] <shoky> ok 1gb now
# [01:17] <paul_irish> shoky: chrome task manager or windows?
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# [01:17] <shoky> chrome
# [01:17] <paul_irish> hm
# [01:17] <paul_irish> osx?
# [01:18] <shoky> win7
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# [01:18] <paul_irish> well its slow on mac too
# [01:18] <kingfisher64> jarek - yeah thanks, the fonts I use often aren't in the free services - bummer. Excellent resource though
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# [01:18] <paul_irish> hmmmmm
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# [01:18] <shoky> maybe i'll just go to html5cocks then
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# [01:20] <kingfisher64> jarek - love that kickstarter initiative though - fantastic idea.
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# [01:20] <paul_irish> shoky: you cant!
# [01:20] <paul_irish> :(
# [01:20] <jarek> kingfisher64: which kickstarter initiative?
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# [01:20] <shoky> damnit
# [01:21] <shoky> you must fix this then!
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# [01:21] <paul_irish> shoky: thx for the report though..
# [01:21] <shoky> you promised me in yayquery
# [01:21] <paul_irish> promised what
# [01:21] <shoky> np
# [01:21] <shoky> uhh that html5rocks is awesome
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# [01:21] <shoky> joking, sry ;)
# [01:21] <kingfisher64> jarek - http://www.google.com/webfonts#AboutPlace:about click kickstart in left panel
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# [01:23] <jarek> kingfisher64: interesting, I didn't know that some of the fonts were crowdfunded
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# [01:24] <jarek> is there a script that would allow me to clean up transforms on SVG elements?
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# [01:26] <jarek> e.g. if rect element has transform matrix applied, I would like to extract translateX and translateY transforms form it and apply them as 'x' and 'y' attributes instead
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# [01:29] <bobbytek2> paul_irish, sup homie
# [01:29] <bobbytek2> what you saying guy?
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# [01:30] <paul_irish> whoaaaaa bobbytek2
# [01:30] <paul_irish> been a while
# [01:30] <paul_irish> how goes
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# [01:32] <bobbytek2> paul_irish, it good my friend
# [01:32] <bobbytek2> why no #jquery?
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# [01:32] <bobbytek2> you give up on that?
# [01:33] <bobbytek2> now using dojo?
# [01:33] <bobbytek2> :)
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# [01:34] <paul_irish> bobbytek2: i'm post-DOM
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# [01:34] <Jack9> When I'm dragging a file onto a target element, the target element has other elements inside it (div, span, etc). How do I propagate dnd events to the wrapping container (and ignore the enter/leave/drop etc of the others) ?
# [01:34] <bot-t> (395 hours ago) <niftylettuce__> tell Jack9 br0wserz render border-images statically btw
# [01:34] <bobbytek2> ? google post-DOM
# [01:34] <bot-t> bobbytek2, Cynsations: Guest Post: Dom Testa on Big Brain Club - http://cynthialeitichsmith.blogspot.com/2012/03/guest-post-dom-testa-on-big-brain-club.html
# [01:34] <paul_irish> webgl all the things!
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# [01:35] <Jack9> bad bot
# [01:35] <bobbytek2> man, I blink and there is a whole new web paradigm
# [01:35] <bobbytek2> Isn't the web dead?
# [01:35] <bobbytek2> Isn't apps the way to go?
# [01:35] <jarek> bobbytek2: jQuery is pure evil
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# [01:36] <bobbytek2> jarek, pure evil? that's pretty strong rhetoric
# [01:36] <jarek> bobbytek2: it was useful back in Web2.0 era, microframeworks are the way to go
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# [01:37] <paul_irish> lol microframeworks
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# [01:38] <bobbytek2> man, buzzwords abound
# [01:38] <bobbytek2> mansakesalive
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# [01:39] <bobbytek2> you guys talkin bout this shit? http://microjs.com/
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# [01:39] <bobbytek2> So I should order my js off that menu?
# [01:40] <jarek> I was reading the sources of SVG edit yesderday
# [01:40] <jarek> it was written with jQuery...
# [01:40] <jarek> most of the logic is in two big files, there is no object orientation, no messaging system, no inheritance
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# [01:41] <bobbytek2> I hate that jquery doesn't have global events as a first class citizen.
# [01:41] <jarek> I mean just look at this mess: http://code.google.com/p/svg-edit/source/browse/trunk/editor/svgcanvas.js
# [01:42] <bobbytek2> that's a big pile
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# [01:43] <jarek> it's probably possible to write clean and well structured code with jQuery, but for some reason I haven't seen this done, *ever*
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# [01:43] <bobbytek2> Is that suppose to work in IE9?
# [01:44] <jarek> bobbytek2: yeah, SVG edit is said to be compatible with IE9
# [01:44] <jarek> but there is better SVG editor coming soon ;)
# [01:44] <bobbytek2> doesn't seem to render properly
# [01:45] <bobbytek2> http://svg-edit.googlecode.com/svn/branches/2.5.1/editor/svg-editor.html
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# [01:47] <bobbytek2> Anyways, why would anyone use this?
# [01:47] <bobbytek2> To draw on a canvas?
# [01:47] <bobbytek2> How is that useful?
# [01:47] <bobbytek2> I have gimp for that
# [01:48] <jarek> bobbytek2: gimp can't do vector graphics
# [01:48] <bobbytek2> paul_irish, seriously, why no jquery?
# [01:48] <bobbytek2> paul_irish, what do you use for dom selection, ajax, etc?
# [01:48] <jarek> bobbytek2: SVG is the best format for storing all web graphic except for photos
# [01:48] <bobbytek2> jarek, what is the usecase ?
# [01:49] <bobbytek2> But am I really going to use this to author my svg?
# [01:49] <jarek> bobbytek2: icons, logos, banners, background images, etc.
# [01:49] <jarek> bobbytek2: you would probably use Illustrator or Inkscape for now
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# [01:49] <bobbytek2> I would more likely use a professional program such as illustrator
# [01:49] <jarek> because there are no better authoring tools on the market
# [01:50] <bobbytek2> so, is this expected to rival these apps in a couple of years?
# [01:50] <bobbytek2> I just don't get it
# [01:50] <jarek> bobbytek2: Illustrator generates bloated SVG files
# [01:50] <jarek> bobbytek2: SVG is not its native format
# [01:51] <jarek> bobbytek2: no, my app is going to rival Illustrator and Inkscape :P
# [01:51] <bobbytek2> heh, cool
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# [01:51] <bobbytek2> you should use vml
# [01:51] <jarek> bobbytek2: I'm building it on top of WebKit
# [01:52] <jarek> bobbytek2: WebKit already has all I need, I just have to implement controllers
# [01:52] <jarek> VML has nicer syntax than SVG, but it's *dead*
# [01:52] <bobbytek2> ya, joking :)
# [01:52] <bobbytek2> xul?
# [01:52] <bobbytek2> :)
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# [01:53] <jarek> I don't think that XUL has anything to do with vector graphics
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# [01:53] <jarek> isn't it only for widgets?
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# [01:53] <bobbytek2> doesn't it have a notion of a canvas?
# [01:54] <bobbytek2> a vector based canvas?
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# [01:55] <jarek> bobbytek2: I think it operates on higher level than canvas
# [01:55] <jarek> no canvas element here: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/XUL_Reference
# [01:55] <bobbytek2> jarek, so, what frameworks do you use?
# [01:55] <jarek> bobbytek2: I'm not using any framework, DOM already has all methods I need
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# [01:56] <bobbytek2> jarek, so no need for abstractions, utilities, etc?
# [01:56] <jarek> I write some tiny wrappers for DOM methods to avoid code repetition
# [01:56] <bobbytek2> I mean, pure dom code is bloat and very low level, no?
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# [01:57] <jarek> e.g. instead of "svgDocument.createElementNS(svgns, 'rect')" I write "svg 'rect'"
# [01:57] <bobbytek2> don't you need parens there?
# [01:57] <jarek> bobbytek2: pure DOM is a bit verbose, there are many methods that have longer and over-expressive names
# [01:58] <bobbytek2> are you using coffee script or something?
# [01:58] <jarek> bobbytek2: yup, I'm using CoffeeScript
# [01:58] <bobbytek2> haven't tried that yet
# [01:58] <jarek> bobbytek2: and custom module manager that works like "require" from Node.js
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# [01:58] <bobbytek2> man, I've been out of web dev for 2 years and the landscape has changed a lot
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# [01:59] <bobbytek2> jarek, thoughts on less.js?
# [01:59] <bobbytek2> seems to be the coffee script of css
# [01:59] <jarek> bobbytek2: I'm skeptical about languages that compile to CSS
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# [02:00] <jarek> bobbytek2: because CSS is not that broken as JavaScript
# [02:00] <bobbytek2> both are painful imo
# [02:00] <bobbytek2> but at least usable
# [02:00] <bobbytek2> i hate the "function" keyword in js
# [02:00] <bobbytek2> very verbose
# [02:01] <jarek> bobbytek2: the only problem that I have with CSS are prefixes
# [02:01] <bobbytek2> coffee script can help there
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# [02:01] <jarek> bobbytek2: it takes too much time to type them
# [02:01] <bobbytek2> I like the less variables
# [02:01] <jarek> and they make the CSS code unreadeable
# [02:01] <bobbytek2> and mixins
# [02:02] <bobbytek2> so, what is a good site to frequent regarding html5?
# [02:02] <jarek> bobbytek2: are you writing that much CSS code that it would make sense to introduce another abstraction layer?
# [02:02] <bobbytek2> probably not
# [02:02] <bobbytek2> but it isn't that much of an abstraction
# [02:03] <bobbytek2> i see it as very similar to coffee script
# [02:03] <bobbytek2> very leaky abstraction
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# [02:03] <bobbytek2> and a super set of the original language
# [02:03] <bobbytek2> like C to C++
# [02:05] <jarek> bobbytek2: CoffeeScript simplifies JavaScript - it does not introduce any new concepts, only simplifies what's already in JS
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# [02:06] <jarek> bobbytek2: C++ is C evolved into even more bloated and complex language
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# [02:08] <bobbytek2> jarek, comprehensions are a native js concept?
# [02:08] <bobbytek2> I don't think so
# [02:09] <bobbytek2> Also, OO in C is possible, just not a native concept
# [02:09] <jarek> bobbytek2: you mean the "for ... in ..." loops?
# [02:09] <bobbytek2> ya
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# [02:10] <jarek> bobbytek2: those are a little abstraction on top of for loops
# [02:10] <jarek> bobbytek2: they are a bit similar to forEach loops that are native in ES5
# [02:10] <bobbytek2> right
# [02:11] <bobbytek2> I guess it's just sugar
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# [02:11] <bobbytek2> but coffee script supports all of js right?
# [02:11] <bobbytek2> like function literals
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# [02:11] <jarek> bobbytek2: CoffeeScript compiles to ES3
# [02:11] <bobbytek2> with the function keyword
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# [02:12] <jarek> bobbytek2: it does not support all features from ES5, e.g. constants or getters/setters in object literals
# [02:12] <bobbytek2> sure, but does it allow these syntaxes to leak?
# [02:12] <jarek> wait, I think constants are from ES6
# [02:13] <jarek> bobbytek2: if I recall correctly, CoffeeScript compiler will throw error if you use 'const' keyword
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# [02:15] <jarek> it will also fail if you use "function" keyword
# [02:16] <bobbytek2> ah
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# [02:49] <bobbytek2> ? exec for( i = 1;1;i++){eval('eval("eval( \'for( i = 1;1;i++){alert(1)}\' )" ) ' )}
# [02:49] <bobbytek2> bot-t, baby come back!
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# [02:52] <bobbytek2> ? g html5
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# [05:13] <ProfElm> Hey guys, I was looking for some good tutorials for HTML5. Particularly, in the offline storage area. I want to try to come up with a simple paint app that allows me to save the image.
# [05:14] <ProfElm> I checked out HTML5rocks.com for the offline storage ... particularly the to-do list tutorial, but it seems deprecated.
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# [05:40] <m0> Does earnest delago hangout here?
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# [05:46] <JonathanNeal> https://twitter.com/#!/jon_neal/status/191007095603212289
# [05:46] <socialhapy> ★ Tweet from jon_neal: yayQuery: A Tribute to Web Developers and Geek Culture. http://t.co/TWvp3xVg ★ http://bit.ly/HHNL1B
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# [05:49] <ProfElm> Hey guys, I was looking for some good tutorials for HTML5. Particularly, in the offline storage area. I want to try to come up with a simple paint app that allows me to save the image.
# [05:49] <ProfElm> I checked out HTML5rocks.com for the offline storage ... particularly the to-do list tutorial, but it seems deprecated.
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# [06:50] <onr> http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/04/12/light-table---a-new-ide-concept/
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# [09:40] <Xarthok> maybe a silly question but is it faster to draw complicated shapes in canvas or just load an image of them?
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# [10:19] <agu10^> Xarthok, i'd probably depend on the complexity
# [10:19] <agu10^> and processing power versus download speed
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# [11:33] <grantg> http://i.imgur.com/7rOgi.png
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# [13:34] <Cust0dian> Hi, everyone. There's been a post on Reddit about Kellum Image Replacement technique, which recently landed into H5BP (thanks to Nicolas Gallagher and Scott Kellum) and a lot of people seems to avoid using IR at all, because "IMG with ALT is better". I really wanted to hear your opinion on this matter and what do you use IR for?
# [13:34] <necolas> H5BP doesn't use that IR technique
# [13:36] <Cust0dian> But it was a starting point, isn't it?
# [13:36] <necolas> Not really. It just got us to revisit the IR technique and drop in an alternative that some of us have been using.
# [13:36] <necolas> You shouldn't use the positive text-indent method - it has quite a few bugs
# [13:37] <necolas> TBH, negative text-indent is pretty robust if you don't need inline-block IR and you're not animating IR'ed elements on ipad1
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# [13:50] <Cust0dian> But still, what are the uses for IR? Isn't it's more correct to use IMG when you want a text to still be there, but show image to those who can view it? Not all screen readers support it? Or what are other cases?
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# [15:47] <zephir> hello
# [15:48] <zephir> I am having problems getting html5 auto stream to work on mobile devices
# [15:48] <zephir> any news/workarounds on that matter?
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# [17:14] <sander__> Anyone know how I can create a html5 page which works offline with eg jquery (to store information offline)
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# [17:17] <sander__> ..to store something on the client side of the browser.
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# [17:38] <Cust0dian> sander__: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Using_the_Application_Cache ?
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# [22:30] <Jack9> I have added an event listener to my canvas for 'contextmenu' but I want the event to travel to any objects (say images from drawImage) that are under the canvas as well. I assign their own event listeners for 'contextmenu' at creation, but they never get the events. Is there a sane way to force an event to the individual objects automatically?
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# Session Close: Sun Apr 15 00:00:00 2012

The end :)