/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-05-09 / end

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# Session Start: Wed May 09 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:53] <mistenkt> Anyone here used aloha? having a small issue with the tables plugin
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# [03:51] <uf0_work> how can I emulate a css hover with a touch even on ipad or iphone?
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# [10:32] <Blindie> hello
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# [10:33] <Blindie> i would like to preload a page and i will show an animation
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# [10:35] <Blindie> is there a way to read how much is bufferd?
# [10:35] <Blindie> ore can anyone give me a link to an tutorial?
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# [10:57] <Moo^> Blindie: you can load javascript files on the backgroud if that's what you are asking
# [10:58] <Moo^> otherwise the answer is no
# [10:58] <Moo^> browsers have perfecly capable progress bars
# [10:58] <Moo^> also you can load images etc. on background
# [10:59] <Moo^> if you want to preload data then you need to describe your problem more carefully, take one step back and tell us why you want to have a preloader in the first place
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# [11:03] <Blindie> i mena preload like this http://www.stephanrizon.com/
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# [11:04] <Blindie> *mean
# [11:04] <Moo^> Blindie: it is an image preloader
# [11:04] <Blindie> yes, i mean this
# [11:04] <Moo^> Blindie: google jquery image preloader javascript should give you some starting point
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# [11:05] <Moo^> pick one and start with it :)
# [11:05] <Blindie> okay, thanks
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# [11:10] <Blindie> nice, i found this http://www.gayadesign.com/diy/queryloader2-preload-your-images-with-ease/ very cool
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# [12:13] <chousho_> rap. It seems like they all use the same db and all. All with the same task area stuff and item enhancement feature. They basically all the same.
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# [12:36] <ShaunBaker1> hey, can I get a sample of opinion? Aside elements on the homepage?
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# [18:42] <evasivx> LOL: http://html9responsiveboilerstrapjs.com/
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# [19:02] <cgcardona> nice
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# [19:40] <suppp> hi, i have a form which i want to send with javascript through XHR, I would like, when i submit this form, to stop the page from reloading. I have tried returning false from the js method that i have onsubmit="my_js_method()" but the page still reloads. anybody know what im doing wrong ?
# [19:42] <tertl5> did u try javascipt channel?
# [19:42] <suppp> ill try there
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# [19:50] <tertl5> i am not a web dev but I just figured that maybe youll at least get a response there
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# [19:59] <tw2113> http://html9responsiveboilerstrapjs.com/
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# [20:16] <devmikey> Question: Is it valid to wrap a div around a bunch of table rows?
# [20:16] <devmikey> (html 4.01 strict)
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# [20:31] <Technodrome> does text that is used in the canvas element , can one copy that text?
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# [20:33] <David_Bradbury> devmikey: Why would you want to?
# [20:33] <David_Bradbury> Technodrome: No
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# [20:36] <Technodrome> David_Bradbury: hmm …ok …yeah ….im trying to do something a bit hard here
# [20:38] <David_Bradbury> Technodrome: You would have to manually implement it. Canvas is intended for graphics manipulation and rendering raster images. In my experienced, it is used co-existing with HTML and other technologies rather than being the main driver
# [20:38] <Technodrome> im trying to build an html5 / js frontend here for my site ….super smooth and elegant but i still want a search engine be able to crawl it at some point but thats not a big issue right now
# [20:39] <paul_irish> devmikey: no
# [20:39] <Technodrome> but you can get "full" freedom and really great smooth animations with the canvas element David_Bradbury
# [20:41] <Technodrome> how did flash sites do seo back in the day? just serve statid html files for the main pages they wanted to crawl?
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# [20:46] <Technodrome> is that still legal to do with search engines?
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# [20:54] <Technodrome> but i guess any web front end that stays on one page will have this problem since the search engines are not exactly following js etc
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# [20:54] <Moo^> Technodrome: it is not
# [20:54] <David_Bradbury> Technodrome: Flash sites are really poor for accessibility and SEO. Also, you can get smooth animations with standard HTML and CSS as well
# [20:55] <Technodrome> how is it not Moo^ ?
# [20:55] <David_Bradbury> Also, define 'full freedom' - To me, having to draw every pixel is rather restricting. I'd rather define how I want something to look and let the browser take care of it
# [20:55] * StoneCyqher notes that flash accessability is actually far ahead of the curve, and google began to index content inside flash movies more than ten years ago
# [20:55] <Technodrome> David_Bradbury: yeah i know …im not doing flash but flash cs6 has an option to publish to html5 now ….all its doing really is making the flash readable with direct javascript
# [20:56] <Technodrome> David_Bradbury: i agree for most sites
# [20:56] <Technodrome> and people can go overboard here with flash sites and people can make cheesy this ….we have all saw it
# [20:56] <Technodrome> but
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# [20:56] <Technodrome> when done correctly it can create an amazing experience and now with browser gpu acceleration …its butter smooth
# [20:56] <David_Bradbury> StoneCyqher: Haha, I just realized. I was thinking 10 years ago was the 90's and was thinking mostly in the Macromedia days
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# [20:57] <Technodrome> im a vector artist …and i love very minimal smooth transitions and just a "great" experience …..there are so few examples of this because of the limitations i'm speaking of among other reasons
# [20:57] <David_Bradbury> You might be interested in SVG then
# [20:58] <Technodrome> but im more interested in how im going to deal with my seo problem and i'm willing to go at great lengths to make it right because this site will only have say 15 pages
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# [21:00] <David_Bradbury> Also, CSS transitions seem to be able to handle what you're describing just fine. I love the canvas element, but I wouldn't do a whole page in it.
# [21:00] <Technodrome> i agree David_Bradbury
# [21:00] <Technodrome> i do
# [21:02] <Technodrome> and yes css transitions are a step …but they still don't give me this *full* absolute control and i dont want to sound corny here ….but i've been a designer for 9 years and for this site I'm trying to set a new standard ….and everyone i have showed it to have said its amazing so far ….being a programmer as well i can generate whatever or however for the seo
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# [21:04] <Technodrome> a page reload honestly ruins the experience so that means i have to get a solution for seo anyways ….because of course js is the only way to keep everything on one page and change …so in that case i might as well just do it all in canvas and scrape the text and links and stuff them into html files for the search engine
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# [21:04] <Technodrome> which is allowed btw
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# [21:04] <Moo^> Technodrome: by the definition the page users and the search engine should see the same content
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# [21:04] <Moo^> Technodrome: google punished BMW many years ago for breaking this
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# [21:05] <Moo^> no including hidden SEO keywords on your page
# [21:05] <Technodrome> yes
# [21:05] <Technodrome> absolutely
# [21:05] <Technodrome> if you keep the content the same its all good
# [21:05] <David_Bradbury> Also, realize I'm not trying to discourage you. If it all works out, awesome. Just trying to make sure you're aware of the pitfalls
# [21:05] <Technodrome> your allowed to have different multi media stuff
# [21:05] <Technodrome> David_Bradbury: im more aware than i really want to be :(
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# [21:05] <Moo^> Technodrome: but if you flash multimedia, don't complain if your page does not show up in searches :)
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# [21:06] <Technodrome> Moo^: what do you mean?
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# [21:06] <Moo^> naturally, flash content is not crawled
# [21:06] <Technodrome> the content is coming from the db
# [21:06] <Moo^> does not matter
# [21:06] <Technodrome> of course flash has a query api to pull it
# [21:06] <Moo^> if it is flash search engines don't see it
# [21:06] <Moo^> case closed
# [21:06] <Technodrome> and i can use that same api to make static html pages for cralwers etc
# [21:07] <Moo^> ah
# [21:07] <Technodrome> and there is some tools for this
# [21:07] <Moo^> good :)
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# [21:07] <Technodrome> and as *long* as the content is the same ….with google your good
# [21:07] <Technodrome> its the additional content and keywords they have a problem with
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# [21:10] <Technodrome> and I know i'm a little crazy …and breaking the "rules" not google but the web society …but if this works out and its great ….then breaking the rules is good
# [21:11] <Technodrome> Moo^: when you said no to me about staying on one page is the true seo problem ….what did you mean there is other ways?
# [21:12] <Moo^> Technodrome: generate a real HTML page for every item queried from database, don't use flash :)
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# [21:13] <Technodrome> Moo^: that requires a browser reload each time
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# [21:13] <Technodrome> Moo^: no flash is being in the browser btw
# [21:13] <Technodrome> but the situation is the same for if i use javascript and keep it on the same page
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# [21:15] <Moo^> Technodrome: yes
# [21:15] <Moo^> it is possible to expose content for hash tag crawling
# [21:15] <Moo^> but I am not sure if that works well with flash
# [21:15] <Technodrome> forget flash :)
# [21:15] <Moo^> http://www.seomoz.org/blog/how-to-allow-google-to-crawl-ajax-content
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# [21:15] <Technodrome> no flash is beign used :)
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# [21:15] <Moo^> but complicate
# [21:16] <Technodrome> this must be recent
# [21:16] <Technodrome> flash as of 2 days ago can publish any flash content directly to javascript now Moo^ if you didn't know
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# [21:16] <Moo^> Technodrome: it is actually quite old
# [21:17] <Moo^> but no one is doing it because it is major Pain In The Ass
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# [21:17] <Moo^> because you need to do your backend properly
# [21:17] <Moo^> and your average PHP scripter really can't
# [21:17] <Moo^> Technodrome: I think it is used by Twitter, Facebook
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# [21:19] <Technodrome> dude
# [21:19] <Technodrome> Moo^: ….doesn't that sound *exactly* like i was proposing :)
# [21:19] <Technodrome> only google is taking one step away
# [21:19] <Technodrome> As long as you can get the static page (the URL on the right in these examples) to display the same content that a user would see (at the left-hand URL), then it works just as planned.
# [21:20] <Technodrome> different pages is fine …just must be the same content
# [21:20] <Moo^> Technodrome: well yes, the trick is hashbang in the url
# [21:20] <Moo^> I am not sure if it was covered here before
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# [21:22] <Technodrome> Moo^: you can also just use a conditional ….provide static page and then if they got js replace it with this as such ….etc etc
# [21:22] <Technodrome> the google thing literally just takes one step away from you
# [21:22] <Technodrome> but they are not crawling your ajax content they are just checking for that html snapshot at the new url
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# [21:40] <demlak> hi
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# [21:41] <demlak> im searching for a "webapp" which generates on the fly a video out of images.. without exploding ram on client site..
# [21:41] <demlak> currently im using http://www.hotscripts.com/listing/html5-slideshow-w-compatibility-mode/
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# [21:42] <demlak> for example http://www.schwarz-punk.de/slideshow_v1/index.html
# [21:42] <gho5t> gahd
# [21:42] <gho5t> we need a channel for this
# [21:42] <demlak> but it kills ram =)
# [21:42] <gho5t> im going to #web2.0
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# [21:44] <demlak> wtf
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# [21:44] <demlak> so.. anyone any idea?
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# [21:45] <Technodrome> yeah that google way will do the trick …now i wonder about bing Moo^
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# [21:51] <Moo^> Technodrome: if they don't support it now they need to support it eventually
# [21:51] <Technodrome> bing supports it
# [21:51] <Technodrome> the same way as google
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# [22:12] <Pritchard> I'm developing for Google Chrome and creating new Audio objects programmatically whenever I want to play a new sound. In the 'ended' callback for each sound, I "delete this;" but notice in the Google Chrome developer tools that the sounds aren't being removed from the resource list.
# [22:12] <Pritchard> So I end up with the same sound, "Drop.wav" in the list many, many times. It appears to accumulate RAM usage significantly.
# [22:12] <Moo^> Pritchard: try using same Audio() instance multiple times
# [22:13] <Moo^> Pritchard: delete this does not bear any meaning for garbage collection though
# [22:13] <Moo^> Pritchard: items are collected when they go out of scope
# [22:13] <Moo^> Pritchard: javascript does not have destructors
# [22:13] <Pritchard> Moo^: Thanks.
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# [22:15] <Moo^> Pritchard: I suggest you don't try to do delete this because object cannot delete itslf
# [22:15] <Pritchard> Moo^: It appears that I'm going to have to build my own set of sound channels.
# [22:15] <Pritchard> Moo^: Yeah, I was honestly guesstimating on some of this code just to try and get it work.
# [22:16] <Pritchard> Moo^: The same Audio object can not play multiple instances of a sound at the same time, which is why I was creating multiple Audio objects.
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# [22:20] <Pritchard> So I'm guessing that fixed number/maximum number of channels solution will work.
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# [22:21] <Moo^> Pritchard: are you trying to create a game music engine?
# [22:21] <Pritchard> Moo^: Yes.
# [22:21] <Moo^> Pritchard: I assume there are existing javascript libraries which could solve your use case
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# [22:22] <Pritchard> Moo^: I'm sure, but I'm new to HTML5 + JavaScript and so I'm building an experimental project before diving into external libraries.
# [22:22] <Moo^> Pritchard: yes. learning experience can be achieved by banging your head to a wall :)
# [22:23] <Pritchard> Moo^: Or pounding your way through code until you understand enough to not feel like a cheater.
# [22:23] <Pritchard> It comes in handy. Games tend to require a lot of custom tweaking, for one reason or another.
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# [22:24] <Pritchard> Plus, it'd be a shame if I get a bug report and can't figure out what's causing the problem.
# [22:24] <Pritchard> I'd be embarrassed, honestly.
# [22:24] <Moo^> Pritchard: I have a good article for you
# [22:24] <Moo^> one sec
# [22:24] <Moo^> http://www.scirra.com/blog/76/how-to-write-low-garbage-real-time-javascript
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# [22:26] * Moo^ learns setting dynamically style="display: block" does not seem to work on <svg> on chrome
# [22:26] <Pritchard> Thanks for the link.
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# [22:29] <Pritchard> Hum, it looks like Chrome adds an audio file and a copy in the resource list for every audio file you load. Weird.
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# [22:32] <Moo^> Pritchard: audio is still PITA for javascript games
# [22:32] <Moo^> Pritchard: angry birds got away with it by using Flash
# [22:32] <Moo^> at least in the first releases
# [22:34] <Pritchard> Moo^: I can see that. I was able to use Flash, but I had to change my security settings to allow it for local testing. I'd like to be able to quickly share my projects with friends.
# [22:34] <Pritchard> Who are non-technical people.
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# [23:17] <Technodrome> People think I'm crazy
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# [23:26] <Technodrome> is there any way through html5 to get the height of the browser?
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# [23:46] <David_Bradbury> Technodrome: In Javascript?
# [23:46] <David_Bradbury> JavaScript*
# [23:46] <Technodrome> yep through js …all good David_Bradbury
# [23:46] <David_Bradbury> You've been able to do that for almost two decades now
# [23:47] <Technodrome> yes
# [23:47] <Technodrome> just never had to do it :)
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# [23:47] <David_Bradbury> Well when you mention "html5", it sounds like you're talking about something more recent :p
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# [23:47] <David_Bradbury> Not to mention it takes about 10 seconds in Google to find an answer
# [23:47] <Technodrome> well …i just actually didn't know how to do it ..i figured it woudl be a js call but with all that new media query stuff i didn't know if there was a better / newer way or anything
# [23:48] <David_Bradbury> Well, it depends what you're trying to do
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# [23:48] <David_Bradbury> Media queries have their purpose, but I don't know what you are trying to accomplish
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# [23:49] <Technodrome> David_Bradbury: I'm still unsure what I'm trying to do :)
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# [23:49] <Technodrome> David_Bradbury: pretty much my whole site will be an html canvas atm
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# [23:50] <Technodrome> i have to use js for the canvas height
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# Session Close: Thu May 10 00:00:00 2012

The end :)