/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-05-10 / end

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# Session Start: Thu May 10 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:34] <Pritchard> I'm back. I'm now loading new audio files by changing the .src property of my audio channels. When I do this, in chrome at least, the old audio data never seems to be garbage collected.
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# [02:42] <acidjazz> hey all whats the sweetest new canvas lib out these days (or a list of some top ones i can check out)
# [02:42] <acidjazz> seems like every day a new one is out
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# [02:46] <acidjazz> anyone?
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# [03:34] <grantg> check out these test cases
# [03:34] <grantg> http://grantgalitz.org/canvas_tests/canvas_scale.html
# [03:34] <grantg> http://grantgalitz.org/canvas_tests/css_scale.html
# [03:34] <grantg> firefox is slow on canvas_scale
# [03:34] <grantg> while fullscreening css_scale on google chrome causes chrome to max out
# [03:35] <grantg> so each browser is the opposite here
# [03:35] <grantg> gotta love hardware acceleration lapeses
# [03:35] <grantg> *lapses
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# [03:52] <Smaczne> hello.
# [03:55] <grantg> hey
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# [04:08] <Technodrome> grantg: how is hardware acceleration overall?
# [04:08] <grantg> sparse
# [04:08] <Technodrome> hmm
# [04:09] <grantg> one browser will accelerate one thing
# [04:09] <Technodrome> im thinking about / sorta started building a whole website using just the canvas …yes call me nuts
# [04:09] <grantg> another will accelerate the OTHER thing
# [04:09] <Technodrome> in safari it seems to work really well
# [04:09] <Technodrome> as it does in internet explorer 9 and 10
# [04:09] <grantg> for me no
# [04:09] <grantg> safari maxes out on cpu usage with canvas shit all the time
# [04:09] <Technodrome> hmm?
# [04:09] <grantg> like 10 fps and it calls it quits
# [04:09] <Technodrome> what version?
# [04:10] <grantg> latest
# [04:10] <Technodrome> 10 fps is all you get? when doing what?
# [04:10] <grantg> with simple shit
# [04:11] <grantg> drawImage from a small source
# [04:11] <grantg> drawImage to draw out a SCALED image
# [04:11] <grantg> which means safari isn't hw accelerating drawImage
# [04:11] <grantg> as scaling speed relies on gpu
# [04:11] <grantg> see my canvas_scale test I linked
# [04:11] <Technodrome> cuttherope.ie …how well does this run for you?
# [04:12] <Technodrome> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Performance/FishBowl/ also how many fps is this getting you?
# [04:12] <grantg> I didn't test that page
# [04:12] <grantg> http://grantgalitz.org/canvas_tests/canvas_scale.html will max out a core when you fullscreen it
# [04:12] <Technodrome> it will say there
# [04:13] <grantg> on safari
# [04:13] <Technodrome> try that last link
# [04:13] <grantg> fishbowl only works well in chrome for me
# [04:13] <grantg> im on mac
# [04:13] <Technodrome> how many fps do you get in safari
# [04:14] <Technodrome> just tell me that number there on the left :)
# [04:14] <grantg> 4
# [04:14] <Technodrome> 4?
# [04:14] <Technodrome> how many fish?
# [04:14] <grantg> google chrome is 60 fps
# [04:14] <Technodrome> how many fish
# [04:14] <grantg> it's because safari here isn't hardware accelerated for canvas
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# [04:15] <grantg> 10
# [04:15] <Technodrome> then something is very wrong with your setup
# [04:15] <Technodrome> i get 60 at 10
# [04:15] <grantg> firefox also doesn't hardware accelerate canvas
# [04:15] <grantg> only webgl
# [04:15] <grantg> for firefox and safari is hw accelerated
# [04:15] <grantg> firefox also accelerates layout for me
# [04:16] <Technodrome> safari i get a full 60 fps on that test
# [04:16] <grantg> Technodrome: No, my setup is ok, I have a mac with safari here
# [04:16] <grantg> unless you're running a safari nightly build
# [04:16] <Technodrome> lets pull in another volunteer
# [04:17] <grantg> or apple decided to purposefully make all safari users on snow leopard not have hw acceleration
# [04:17] <grantg> for safari
# [04:17] <Technodrome> I think version 4 had it. Apple mention the requirements for viewing their modern content as version 4 or 5. For movies, Quicktime itself is hardware-accelerated for H264 ever since 10.6 launched and their HTML 5 Canvas always has been hardware-accelerated.
# [04:17] <grantg> 'cause google chrome hw accelerates fine
# [04:17] <Technodrome> thats why i'm telling you there is an issue
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# [04:17] <grantg> Safari has always been shitty
# [04:17] <grantg> for me on multiple comps
# [04:18] <grantg> Microsoft will push context2d shit because they don't want to use webgl
# [04:18] <grantg> which by webgl's very nature, requires hw acceleration
# [04:18] <Technodrome> im not saying what browser is better or worse
# [04:18] <grantg> as it's opengl
# [04:18] <grantg> I have safari 5.1.5
# [04:18] <Technodrome> im saying …just right now …that canvas is accelerated on safaro
# [04:18] <grantg> latest
# [04:19] <grantg> with no mods on safari...
# [04:19] <grantg> on a macbook pro
# [04:19] <Technodrome> 2.4 ghz macbook …i get 60 fps with that fish test
# [04:19] <Technodrome> im downloading chrome now
# [04:19] <Technodrome> to see if there is a difference
# [04:19] <grantg> Anyhow, IE9/IE10 are fast in gfx, but slow as fuck in javascript, which turns me off
# [04:20] <grantg> Opera tries, but fails so badly it crashes half the time
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# [04:23] <grantg> Technodrome: What OS?
# [04:23] <Technodrome> mac osx
# [04:23] <grantg> VERSION #
# [04:23] <Technodrome> why would i use safari on windows hehe
# [04:23] <Technodrome> 10.7
# [04:23] <grantg> exactly
# [04:23] <grantg> I use 10.6.8
# [04:23] <grantg> Safari on snow doesn't hw accelerate
# [04:23] <grantg> even though it has a webgl option
# [04:23] <grantg> which IS hw accelerated
# [04:23] <Technodrome> oh?
# [04:23] <grantg> context2d is NOT accelerated
# [04:23] <grantg> if you can, try to make your stuff for webgl
# [04:23] <grantg> and fall back to context2d
# [04:24] <grantg> webgl is direct to opengl es 2.0, so if the browser supports it, it will fully be hw accelerated
# [04:24] <Technodrome> chrome is the same for me atm
# [04:24] <grantg> yeah, should be
# [04:24] <grantg> chrome is hw accelerated here
# [04:24] <grantg> firefox is NOT
# [04:24] <grantg> only html layout is accelerated
# [04:25] <Technodrome> serious?
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# [04:25] <Technodrome> firefox has no acceleration for canvas?
# [04:25] <grantg> see my canvas_css link above
# [04:25] <grantg> firefox will accelerate scaling of html elements
# [04:25] <grantg> so if you scale canvas via css, it will be fast
# [04:25] <grantg> if you scale INSIDE canvas, it will be slow
# [04:26] <grantg> drawImage is fucked in firefox FYI
# [04:26] <Technodrome> fml
# [04:26] <grantg> google chrome will not accelerate html layout
# [04:26] <grantg> in chrome you MUST scale in canvas
# [04:26] <grantg> so user agent sniffing might be required
# [04:26] <grantg> I sniff. D:
# [04:27] <grantg> fullscreen http://grantgalitz.org/canvas_tests/css_scale.html then check activity monitor
# [04:27] <Technodrome> chrome is a bit better here for hw acceleration
# [04:27] <Technodrome> but by all means both are being hw
# [04:27] <grantg> that link will be fast in firefox, but use up your cpu in chrome and safari
# [04:27] <Technodrome> should i be looking at that?
# [04:28] <grantg> http://grantgalitz.org/canvas_tests/canvas_scale.html will be slow in firefox, but fast in chrome
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# [04:28] <grantg> yeah
# [04:28] <grantg> you'll see the edge cases for hw acceleration
# [04:28] <grantg> keep your cpu monitor open while fullscreening each test
# [04:28] <Technodrome> cpu is 70 percent idle with that in safari
# [04:28] <grantg> fullscreen?
# [04:28] <Technodrome> 80
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# [04:29] <grantg> http://grantgalitz.org/canvas_tests/css_scale.html should be slow in chrome/safari due to lack of html layout acceleration
# [04:29] <grantg> when you fully fullscreen it
# [04:29] <Technodrome> i mean it lagged a bit for a second when i went into fullscreen
# [04:29] <Technodrome> but cpu never went high
# [04:29] <grantg> Open your cpu monitor
# [04:29] <Technodrome> i did
# [04:29] <Technodrome> open right now
# [04:29] <Technodrome> in full screen its the same cpu usage
# [04:30] <grantg> for which link?
# [04:30] <Technodrome> except for the 2 second jump into full screen
# [04:30] <Technodrome> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Performance/FishBowl/
# [04:30] <grantg> there are two links
# [04:30] <Technodrome> errr
# [04:30] <Technodrome> http://grantgalitz.org/canvas_tests/css_scale.html
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# [04:30] <agu10^> sorry guys :/
# [04:30] <agu10^> tables are easy to use. Divs and css are not.
# [04:30] <grantg> yeah, it will run fullspeed, but knock out a core
# [04:30] <Technodrome> did not knock out a core here
# [04:30] <agu10^> divs are not made to look like tables
# [04:30] <Technodrome> must be something with snow leopard
# [04:30] <grantg> but it will drop once you exit fullscreen
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# [04:30] <agu10^> gotta hack them to make them work properly
# [04:31] <agu10^> css sucks for that, we all know that
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# [04:31] <grantg> let me screen shot it
# [04:31] <Technodrome> i believe you
# [04:31] <Technodrome> i really do
# [04:31] <Technodrome> no question about it …there is a ton of inconsistency
# [04:31] <agu10^> i want to put 3 cells for different payment method buttons
# [04:31] <Technodrome> and for me its a nightmare in its own right
# [04:31] <Technodrome> grantg: as you can imagine bulding a complete site in html canvas seems like hell huh
# [04:31] <grantg> http://i.imgur.com/dCufM.png
# [04:31] <agu10^> no
# [04:32] <agu10^> that makes sense Technodrome
# [04:32] <agu10^> really it does
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# [04:32] <Technodrome> not in safari grantg try it there
# [04:32] <Technodrome> or your having a grahics problem or something
# [04:32] <Technodrome> agu10^: it does? even though I'm doing it, i know its crazy but at least i admit it :)
# [04:33] <agu10^> why is there an OS that takes so much space off from the bottom of the screen?
# [04:33] <grantg> here's it in safari: http://i.imgur.com/qn0Ji.png
# [04:33] <agu10^> Technodrome, actually it makes a lot of sense
# [04:33] <agu10^> html sucks
# [04:33] <agu10^> html, css both suck in many ways
# [04:33] <Technodrome> and it still stays high ike that the entire time?
# [04:33] <grantg> yeah
# [04:33] <Technodrome> what are the specs of that machine?
# [04:33] <grantg> in firefox that page is low
# [04:33] <grantg> core 2 duo bro
# [04:33] <grantg> 2.4 ghz also
# [04:33] <Technodrome> something is wrong then
# [04:33] <Technodrome> big time
# [04:33] <grantg> snow
# [04:34] <Technodrome> update to leopard and see if that fixes your problem
# [04:34] <grantg> no, it's just that apple purposefully didn't release hw acceleration for 10.6.8
# [04:34] <grantg> you mean lion and no I won't
# [04:34] <grantg> because apple removed ppc support in lion
# [04:34] <Technodrome> hmm …when i had snow leopard i thought i had hw acceleration
# [04:34] <Technodrome> ppc was removed in sL
# [04:35] <Technodrome> 10.5 was the last thing for ppc
# [04:35] <grantg> no
# [04:35] <Technodrome> ?
# [04:35] <grantg> I have PPC apps on my mac that run in snow
# [04:35] <grantg> it was removed in lion
# [04:35] <grantg> It's why I didn't upgrade
# [04:35] <Technodrome> you can't run snow leopard on a power pc
# [04:35] <grantg> ugh
# [04:35] <Technodrome> they have rosetta installed still yes
# [04:35] <Technodrome> that is an emulator
# [04:35] <grantg> run powerpc apps on intel snow
# [04:36] <Technodrome> they removed rosetta
# [04:36] <grantg> yeah
# [04:36] <grantg> that's what I said
# [04:36] <grantg> they removed ppc support for lion
# [04:36] <grantg> as in ppc apps
# [04:36] <Technodrome> i dont see why that would stop them from including hw acceleraation
# [04:36] <grantg> because apple wants to get people to upgrade
# [04:36] <Technodrome> we need another verification for this!!!
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# [04:46] <Technodrome> flash can export to html canvas now
# [04:46] <Technodrome> really goood
# [04:46] <Technodrome> so esentially i can get the full freedom i need from it without having to have flash installed if this cross browser shit isn't a huge deal
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# [04:47] <Technodrome> what kind of graphcis in your machine grantg ?
# [04:47] <grantg> nvidia 320m
# [04:47] <Technodrome> yes same
# [04:47] <grantg> it's not blacklisted if you're wondering
# [04:48] <Technodrome> i am just curous why your usage is so high
# [04:48] <grantg> it's because apple wanted a selling point for 10.7!
# [04:48] <Technodrome> if thats true well damn
# [04:48] <grantg> Apple purposefully closed off hw acceleration for safari until 10.7
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# [04:50] <Technodrome> im all for selling points but if that is true …thats bullshit
# [04:50] <grantg> seriously
# [04:50] <grantg> not upgrading to get a browser I don't use to have hw acceleration
# [04:51] <Technodrome> you can use chrome thouggh right grantg ?
# [04:52] <grantg> and firefox
# [04:53] <Technodrome> i see
# [04:53] <Technodrome> blah …im so fucked man
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# [04:56] <grantg> oh hey, a new safari version
# [04:56] <grantg> 5.1.7
# [04:56] * grantg is gonna update
# [04:56] <grantg> lets see if they included hw acceleration now
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# [05:41] <grantg> yo
# [05:41] <grantg> safari 5 only has canvas acceleration on lion indeed
# [05:41] <grantg> http://www.apple.com/safari/whats-new.html
# [05:41] <grantg> even says
# [05:41] <grantg> notice the stupid lion tag
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# [05:42] <grantg> I guess they needed a selling point for lion, so they purposefully removed hw acceleration in safari for snow
# [05:42] <austincheney> canvas.... what a waste of resources
# [05:42] <austincheney> too slow
# [05:42] <grantg> it
# [05:42] <grantg> it's slow in firefox/opera/safari
# [05:42] <grantg> google chrome and IE9+ accelerate it
# [05:43] <grantg> so it's all gpu on chrome/IE9+
# [05:43] <grantg> other browsers run the gfx on cpu
# [05:43] <grantg> there are tricks though
# [05:43] <grantg> like how firefox accelerates html layers
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# [05:43] <grantg> so if you need to scale the canvas, scale with css when sniffing for firefox
# [05:43] <austincheney> if you need massive gpu hardware acceleration to run a simple animation then you have seriously fucked up priorities
# [05:44] <grantg> not really
# [05:44] <grantg> simple shit is fucked in canvas
# [05:44] <austincheney> i dont need 6kg of cocaine to wake up in the morning
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# [05:44] <grantg> Scaling is fucked in firefox/safari(note: all versions below lion) because of lack of acceleration
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# [05:45] <austincheney> why is gpu acceleration even a discussion?
# [05:45] <austincheney> absolutely unnecessary considering the task
# [05:45] <grantg> because gfx acceleration is necessary for lots of gfx ops
# [05:45] <grantg> scaling is impossible without it
# [05:46] <grantg> when requiring scaling at 60 fps
# [05:46] <grantg> like stretching a canvas to the screen
# [05:46] <austincheney> yes, a waste of resources
# [05:46] <austincheney> like building a house only out of gold
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# [05:47] <austincheney> i am going to cut down an entire forest because I ran out of toothpicks
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# [05:48] <austincheney> the kind of animations that are capable on canvas now were first achieved on home computers in the 80s
# [05:48] <austincheney> without gpu acceleration
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# [06:14] <paul_irish> ok
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# [06:56] <jaami> hi guys,
# [06:57] <jaami> can someone give me ebook link that helps to understand basics of PSD to HTML5?
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# [06:58] <alystair> http://html9responsiveboilerstrapjs.com/ <- hah.
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# [07:00] <jaami> alystair: is that link for me?
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# [07:02] <alystair> nope, just general web developer humour
# [07:02] <jaami> okay :)
# [07:03] <jaami> i need PSD to HTML5 ebook or vid tuts. can you help with some links?
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# [07:07] <tantek> jaami - I wrote a book on getting started with what works with HTML5 now: http://tantek.com/html5now
# [07:07] <tantek> (includes 2+ hours of video tutorial)
# [07:07] <tantek> (and ~100 page ebook)
# [07:07] <jaami> great, let me check
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# [07:10] <jaami> yeh, the box looks great, with $29. sure you are great writter now please let me know if i qualify ofr a free book.
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# [07:11] <jaami> i need free copy or if you have it for online reading please give me the link
# [07:11] <tw2113> evening tantek
# [07:11] <jaami> evening?
# [07:11] <tantek> jaami - there are some sample chapters online
# [07:11] <tw2113> it's midnight for me
# [07:11] <tantek> hello tw2113
# [07:12] <tw2113> jaami ANY PSD->html tutorial will serve you well in that area
# [07:12] <jaami> exactly
# [07:12] <tw2113> the only difference for the "html5" part you want is something like <nav> instead of </div>
# [07:12] <tw2113> all of the APIs available will not really apply to the PSD aspect
# [07:13] <tw2113> and i guarantee 100% that there are tutorials online for PSD->HTML
# [07:13] <tw2113> free of charge
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# [07:13] <jaami> yes, thanks for explaination and ofcourse im newb, i do need to understand of basic of PSD to HTML5
# [07:13] <tw2113> remove the 5 and you're in business
# [07:14] <jaami> really?
# [07:14] <tw2113> yes
# [07:14] <tw2113> html4 and html5 are not that different in terms of markup
# [07:14] <tw2113> some tags got depreciated, some added
# [07:14] <tw2113> a lot of simplification
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# [07:15] <jaami> now a days PSD to HTML elance projects goes to HTML5 strictly. still you think 5 is not important?
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# [07:15] <tw2113> i think you're not comprehending "html5"
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# [07:15] <tantek> jaami - HTML5 is good enough to use yes
# [07:15] <tw2113> i think you're using the blanket marketing term when really you shouldn't be
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# [07:16] <tw2113> http://diveintohtml5.info/
# [07:16] <jaami> i mean, those symantic tags. take any advantage over html4?
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# [07:17] <tw2113> i use them all the time
# [07:17] <tw2113> future proofing my websites for when they do carry more meaning
# [07:17] <tw2113> and have had them working from IE6+
# [07:18] <tw2113> but really, you could do the exact same layouts with just div's
# [07:18] <tw2113> the trick is knowing when it's appropriate to switch the new tags in
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# [08:01] <tantek> jaami - many of the semantic tags in HTML5 have an advantage in real world uses like parsing by Readability - per their publishing guidelines: http://www.readability.com/publishers/guidelines/
# [08:02] <tantek> note that readability makes use of both new HTML5 semantic tags, and the hAtom microformat for consuming structured periodical content information
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# [09:11] <jaami> hi guys, again this Jaami. how are you? is there any book on PSD to HTML5?
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# [09:16] <manuchill> jaami, just curious: why would you need a book for that?
# [09:17] <jaami> manuchill: i want to learn PSD to HTML conversion and also will go for WordPress
# [09:17] <jaami> manuchill: want to give a try on elance
# [09:19] <jaami> manuchill: i think its the easiest thing i can do. so, i do need some basic understanding. like html4 and html5 difference and CSS3 and JQuery etc.
# [09:20] <jaami> manuchill: if not book then what you suggest?
# [09:20] <manuchill> you won't find that in a psd 2 html book ;)
# [09:20] <jaami> you know what i am looking for. please guide
# [09:21] <jaami> i want to go the easy way to save time and get ready for actual work
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# [09:21] <manuchill> http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/site-builds/from-psd-to-html-building-a-set-of-website-designs-step-by-step/
# [09:22] <jaami> aha, sounds , its the thing i was looking for
# [09:22] <manuchill> html5: have a look at http://html5boilerplate.com/
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# [09:23] <manuchill> html5: http://html5doctor.com/
# [09:24] <manuchill> jquery: http://docs.jquery.com/Main_Page
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# [09:25] <manuchill> html5 diff html4 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/
# [09:26] <manuchill> jaami, internet is just best friend atm ;) no need for a specific book
# [09:27] <jaami> manuchill: those are the links i was looking for. great palce to start.
# [09:27] <manuchill> jaami, have a great time reading, i know i had :)
# [09:27] <jaami> oh yes, internet is the best friend otherwise we were not here
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# [09:28] <jaami> manuchill: what do you think how much time i should take to handle actual real project?
# [09:29] <jaami> i think the basic understanding should not take more than a week
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# [09:30] <manuchill> depends, how fast you'll learn
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# [09:32] <jaami> today i was trying to change color of menue text and still im unable to fix this issue. i mean, these kind of problems may take more time where a perticular problem cannot be found in books and other helping material.
# [09:32] <manuchill> wordpress is easy to install, there are html5 templates for wordpress, so in a day you could be up and running
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# [09:33] <jaami> aha, nice
# [09:33] <manuchill> colour of a menu shouldn't be that hard
# [09:33] <manuchill> do you have a sample online?
# [09:33] <jaami> yes, i dont know why its for me :) lol
# [09:34] <jaami> yes, i want to upload, my html and css. give me a minute plz.
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# [09:42] <jaami> manuchill: please my code html: http://pastebin.com/npEshvhZ
# [09:42] <jaami> css: http://pastebin.com/Srxmi862
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# [09:43] <jaami> i want to set this color #4dc1df for textmenu
# [09:44] <tw2113> #textmenu { color: #4dc1df; }
# [09:44] <jaami> as you can see in my CSS file i am setting color field of textmenu
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# [09:44] <jaami> it does not work
# [09:45] <manuchill> you need to give the anchors the color
# [09:45] <tw2113> ^
# [09:45] <tw2113> *slaps forehead for missing that*
# [09:45] <jaami> i think i am changing color twice in miy code some where. you can understand where is the problem but for me its hard, i have spent 2 hours on this already
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# [09:45] <tw2113> #textmenu a { color: #4dc1df; }
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# [09:46] <jaami> aha, okay, i try this
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# [09:46] <manuchill> jaami, have a look here http://jsfiddle.net/Gd2J2/
# [09:46] <manuchill> tw2113, lol
# [09:47] <tw2113> it's 2:30am, gimme a break
# [09:47] <tw2113> *breaks a nail* aghhhh!
# [09:47] <manuchill> tw2113, better call it a day?
# [09:47] <tw2113> now what am i going to hang things on? i lost my nail in the wall
# [09:47] <jaami> thats really funny, just a simple thing took my hours. lol
# [09:48] <tw2113> you'll learn with time jaami
# [09:48] <tw2113> darn close to manuchill
# [09:49] <tw2113> i'm a bit skeptical about elance postings requesting "html5" and not having it be all APIs that are both correctly and incorrectly associated with the actual html5 spec
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# [09:49] <jaami> manuchill: wow, what is that?
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# [09:50] <tw2113> i really have a feeling that they'll want all the js stuff too
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# [09:50] <jaami> manuchill: how do i use it for learning?
# [09:50] <manuchill> jaami, whats what?
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# [09:50] <tw2113> jaami has probably never seen the fiddle before
# [09:50] <manuchill> ah
# [09:51] <jaami> manuchill: the last link you gave is amazing, look like google web toolbar
# [09:51] <manuchill> i guess ;)
# [09:51] <jaami> i'll brb , want to take a closer look :)
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# [09:52] <greggies> GOOG is good
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# [10:04] <jaami> yes, it was first time i saw JSFIDDLE. sure for me there are many things to pay attention to. i have many questions but i am afraid i will be wasting your precious time. if you guys allow me to ask 3 more questions
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# [10:06] <jaami> manuchill: & tw2113: if you guys can tell me either im following html5 standerds in my html file?
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# [10:07] <jaami> it will be great if you can give me a well formed html5 sample webpage with its CSS, so that i can study it
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# [10:08] <jaami> *so that i can follow the same rules of html5
# [10:08] <manuchill> have a look at: http://html5boilerplate.com/
# [10:08] <jaami> okay
# [10:09] <manuchill> and for chosing the right element for the right job, check this: http://html5doctor.com/element-index/
# [10:10] <jaami> okay
# [10:13] <manuchill> I can imagine, after absorbing all that info, you'll have a bunch of new questions, but hey that's where this comes in handy
# [10:13] <manuchill> and so we all learn ;)
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# [10:20] <jaami> that for sure is great stuff. just think that there might be more in your magic hat :)
# [10:20] <manuchill> lol
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# [10:30] <lizzin> does html5 have a video conferencing feature?
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# [10:47] <Moo^> lizzin: yes
# [10:47] <Moo^> lizzin: webrtc
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# [10:50] <lizzin> Moo^: just read a portion of webrtc.org
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# [10:50] <lizzin> is this what google hangouts uses?
# [10:51] <lizzin> nvm, found this http://gigaom.com/video/google-hangouts-technology/
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# [11:05] <lizzin> Moo^: https://apprtc.appspot.com looks like just what i need
# [11:06] <lizzin> Moo^: thanks for mentioning webrtc
# [11:06] <Moo^> lizzin: good :)
# [11:07] <lizzin> Moo^: happen to know which/how many browsers have this capability?
# [11:07] <Moo^> lizzin: none
# [11:07] <Moo^> beta chrome has
# [11:07] <lizzin> :(
# [11:08] <lizzin> yea, thats what im using
# [11:08] <lizzin> wonder how much longer it will be
# [11:08] <lizzin> i saw somewhere that chrome works on a 12 week cycle. is this true?...form beta to release version
# [11:08] <Moo^> yes
# [11:09] <Moo^> firefox will have it eventually
# [11:09] <Moo^> don't count on other vendoers
# [11:10] <lizzin> is it possible to determine about how long?
# [11:10] <Moo^> lizzin: no
# [11:10] <lizzin> ok
# [11:10] <Moo^> unless you do the patches yourself and contribute them to browser
# [11:11] <Moo^> which is beyond the capability of most organizations
# [11:11] <Moo^> for internet explorer I could give an estimation... let's say 10 years :)
# [11:11] <lizzin> haha
# [11:13] <lizzin> guess i will just have to force all my friends to use chrome beta for the meantime
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# [11:22] <lizzin> Moo^: looks like it is already enabled in chrome
# [11:22] <lizzin> Moo^: has to be enabled via a flag. but support is there
# [11:24] <Moo^> lizzin: haha, it is good that you can pick the browser for them :) otherwise it would be too early for trying to use it.
# [11:24] <Moo^> I think the flag is there still to protect the average joe because the technology is not mature enough for the mainstream
# [11:24] <Moo^> lizzin: also you might get some extra benefits doing a chrome app (it's just js but has higher priviledges than your ordinary web page)
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# [11:28] <lizzin> Moo^: hrmm, i'm not familiar with chrome apps. but i will def. check it out..
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# [11:29] <Moo^> lizzin: one sec
# [11:29] <lizzin> Moo^: ok
# [11:29] <Moo^> lizzin: here http://blog.nparashuram.com/2011/10/writing-browser-extensions-comparing.html?hn
# [11:30] <lizzin> Moo^: thanks
# [11:30] <lizzin> oh nice
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# [14:01] <rosieres_respawn> has anybody experiences with video ? i got a theora movie with a white background ... ervery desktop player plays the file in white if i run this movie in FF12 the backgroundcolor is #fefefe
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# [15:12] <Manavan> I am having problem with FileReader in chrome. I was able to successfully use FileWriter, but when i try to read the file using fileReader.readAsBinaryString, it is not working
# [15:12] <Manavan> Any ideas?
# [15:13] <Manavan> Browser: chrome
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# [15:52] <alystair> hrm wonder if it's safe to go above 1024 width yet
# [15:53] <Moo^> alystair: ipad
# [15:54] <alystair> I meant for a non-dense display :P
# [15:56] <Moo^> alystair: yep, but tables do 1024
# [15:56] <Moo^> generally
# [15:56] <Moo^> so it is not safe :P
# [15:56] <alystair> my design fits within the safe zone, just thinking of the awesome background graphics :/
# [15:56] <Moo^> alystair: we do it also... we use scaled backgrounds of CSS3
# [15:57] <Moo^> if you want have "big" bg image
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# [16:13] * plh_ zakim, call plh-mobile
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# [16:14] <hober> plh_: i don't think zakim knows about freenode #html5...
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# [16:24] <itatitat> ey guys
# [16:24] <itatitat> I've some dobuts
# [16:24] <itatitat> doubts
# [16:24] <itatitat> .................I'm thinking to use a nav inside a header
# [16:24] <itatitat> that's right?
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# [16:25] <Armen138> damn. I thought you had donuts.
# [16:25] <itatitat> is recommendable?
# [16:25] <hober> itatitat: sure.
# [16:25] <itatitat> or is better to have nav outside the header?
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# [16:26] <hober> either way is fine
# [16:26] <hober> depends on your content
# [16:26] <itatitat> jummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
# [16:26] <hober> both should pass a conformance checker
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# [16:27] <itatitat> yes, I know, and is fine, the check is fine
# [16:27] <itatitat> is because I want to understand better these definionts about this new tags , sometimes are confuse for me
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# [16:37] <itatitat> ok guys
# [16:37] <itatitat> my las question
# [16:37] <itatitat> last
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# [16:37] <itatitat> by now I used header, inside of my articles
# [16:37] <itatitat> but my header only have text, a simple sentence
# [16:38] <itatitat> mus I use h1 o header?
# [16:38] <itatitat> or h2, bla bla
# [16:38] <itatitat> ?
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# [16:39] <Raynos> indexedDB is a pain :\
# [16:40] <Raynos> no-one implements it properly
# [16:40] <shwetank> itatitat if you have multiple articles on the page, i would recommend not using h1
# [16:41] <itatitat> jummmmmmmmm............................................yes, I've multiple articles in my page
# [16:41] <itatitat> but all my titles are "simple sentences"
# [16:41] <itatitat> ok, maybe is right, but why do you say that?
# [16:41] <shwetank> titles are supposed to be that ;)
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# [16:42] <itatitat> yes, but spec say that header is for multiple elements
# [16:42] <itatitat> not only one
# [16:42] <itatitat> no?
# [16:44] <itatitat> my real doubt about this is because if I use header.......................what happen with SEO?
# [16:44] <itatitat> SEO prefer to find h1, no?
# [16:44] <itatitat> is more important for SEO
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# [16:52] <shwetank> I don't think search engines will find your page more important if you have multiple h1s
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# [16:58] <itatitat> jummmm, ok
# [16:58] <itatitat> yes, maybe is right
# [16:59] <itatitat> is so flexibles these definitions.....ok
# [16:59] <itatitat> thanks
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# [17:02] <jetienne> somebody got a good tutorial on canvas about css size vs resolution ?
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# [17:05] <Moo^> jetienne: no tutorial needed
# [17:05] <Moo^> css gives the dimensions on the page
# [17:05] <Moo^> canvas internal resolution is defined by width and height attributes
# [17:05] <Moo^> that's it :)
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# [17:06] <Moo^> jetienne: the gameboy emulator dev who hangs here now and then can tell you how different use cases are hw accelerated
# [17:06] <jetienne> Moo^: hmm ok :) so, how come canvas.width = 256; change the size of the canvas on screen ?
# [17:06] <StoneCyqher> Moo^: who's this channel's such?
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# [17:06] <Moo^> I think nick was grantg
# [17:06] <StoneCyqher> ah, one i haven't met.
# [17:07] <Moo^> jetienne: you need to also add style="" ?
# [17:07] * StoneCyqher sighs
# [17:07] <StoneCyqher> no
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# [17:07] <StoneCyqher> jetienne: because you set its width, what did you expect would happen
# [17:07] <jetienne> StoneCyqher: i would expect it change the resolution, not the size on screen
# [17:07] <jetienne> if css === size on screen and canvas.width === resolution that is
# [17:07] <StoneCyqher> and why did you think that, since no other tag works that way
# [17:08] <Moo^> jetienne: I think the answer is that size defaults to resolution
# [17:08] <StoneCyqher> wrong
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# [17:08] <StoneCyqher> stop guessing moo
# [17:08] <Moo^> unless overidden
# [17:08] <jetienne> StoneCyqher: you doesnt seem productive
# [17:08] <StoneCyqher> jetienne: .width is always the amount of space the tag takes in
# [17:08] <StoneCyqher> ok then
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# [17:08] <Moo^> jetienne: listen to me :)
# [17:08] * StoneCyqher was in the middle of explaining, but you want to harsh on someone for telling Guessy McGee to stop wronging at you? good thinking.
# [17:09] <jetienne> Moo^: this was my guess too. but i wanted a authoritative answer :)
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# [17:09] <Moo^> jetienne: it is my gut feeling working on the subject a year or so now :)
# [17:09] <StoneCyqher> (it's also completely wrong)
# [17:10] <jetienne> Moo^: ok :)
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# [17:10] <Moo^> jetienne: also here is the full answer if you need http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4938346/canvas-width-and-height-in-html5
# [17:10] <StoneCyqher> notice how that says what i was saying
# [17:10] <StoneCyqher> not what moo's "gut feeling" says.
# [17:10] <StoneCyqher> it's also missing the issue of the pixel surface
# [17:10] <StoneCyqher> which is what you really need
# [17:10] <StoneCyqher> which Moo^ doesn't know about.
# [17:11] <Moo^> jetienne: and that page also shows I am right
# [17:11] <jetienne> Moo^: i use this trick in http://learningthreejs.com/data/casting-shadows/ but somehow it fails when i go fullscreen
# [17:11] <Moo^> like I am always
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# [17:11] <StoneCyqher> Moo^: no, it doesn't. try actually reading it.
# [17:11] <jetienne> Moo^: surely :)
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# [17:11] <StoneCyqher> you two have fun not learning because your egos are more important to you.
# [17:12] <Moo^> StoneCyqher: there is no point to argue with you because you behave too aggressively
# [17:12] <jetienne> StoneCyqher: thanks for your kind words :)
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# [17:12] <Moo^> StoneCyqher: but for this fucking one time
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# [17:12] <Moo^> StoneCyqher: Note further that the height and width are the logical canvas dimensions used for drawing and are different from the style.height and style.width CSS attributes. If you don't set the CSS attributes, the intrinsic size of the canvas will be used as its display size;
# [17:12] <Moo^> which part you don't understand?
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# [17:14] <Web-Gate`> *StoneCyqher*:QUIT cause of dono what to say ..
# [17:15] <Pomax> we're glossing over the important part
# [17:15] <Pomax> jetienne: that's really interesting, got a link that shows .width changing the canvas on-page?
# [17:15] <Pomax> because it's not supposed to - it might have some sneaky javascript monitoring property changes
# [17:15] <jetienne> Pomax: serioius ? i mean i could write one.
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# [17:16] <Pomax> if you could, go for it. jsfiddle.net would be the best choice
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# [17:17] <StoneCyqher> the answer's actually quite simple
# [17:17] <StoneCyqher> you just have to know how canvas really works.
# [17:18] <jetienne> Pomax: http://jsfiddle.net/c9VBP/ there
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# [17:19] <jetienne> Pomax: you add/remove the canvas.width/.height and you use the inspector to show the size of the canvas
# [17:19] <jetienne> Pomax: and according to my observation, canvas.width does change the size on screen
# [17:19] <Pomax> http://jsfiddle.net/TfJFp/
# [17:20] <Pomax> the on-page size is determined by the CSS, so the visible canvas should (if the browser has no bugs and there's no sneaky JS running in the background) always look 300x300px
# [17:20] <Pomax> the canvas-resoluion, however, will change 5 seconds after DOM completion, to 1200x1200 grid units
# [17:20] <jetienne> Pomax: try not to set the css and canvas.width will change the resolution
# [17:20] <jetienne> Pomax: how come ?
# [17:20] <Pomax> yes, that is true.
# [17:21] <Pomax> in that sense it behaves the same as an image object
# [17:21] <jetienne> s/canvas.width will change the resolution/canvas.width will change the screensize/g
# [17:21] <Pomax> if you do not set explicit CSS width/height values, the canvas (like img) element will assume the dimensions indicated by the content
# [17:21] <Pomax> similar to loading an image of which the dimensions are unknown, the moment .width and .height can be verified the element is resized to those dimensions in pixels
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# [17:22] <jetienne> Pomax: hmm ok. so the rule is kinda "if no css for screensize, take resolution as screensize"
# [17:23] <jetienne> Pomax: Moo^: thanks for your help
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# [17:23] <Pomax> if we then set image.src to a new image with different dimensions, the element should resize itself again.
# [17:23] <Pomax> we see the same in http://jsfiddle.net/TfJFp/1/
# [17:23] <Pomax> everytime you change canvas.width and/or canvas.height, something possible unexpected happens: the browser completely resets the canvas, as if it's been declared anew
# [17:24] <Pomax> similar to what happens when you do image.src="http://some.new.image/lol.jpg"
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# [17:24] <Pomax> so yes, exactly: if there is no CSS to constraint the drawing dimensions, whatever width/height you assign the canvas (or img) will be the pixel size on page.
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# [17:25] <Pomax> also note that css width/height effectively says "if the content does NOT have this size, scale it"
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# [17:26] <Pomax> so if you have a canvas (or image) that is 5000x5000 but the onpage styling says it's to be rendered at 300x300px, then the content gets squashed into those 300x300 pixels
# [17:26] <jetienne> Pomax: is there some known bug related to this and to fullscren on chrome ?
# [17:26] <Pomax> if you draw a point on a canvas that big at coordinates 2500x2500, they will show up on the page at 150x150
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# [17:27] <jetienne> Pomax: http://learningthreejs.com/data/casting-shadows/ on this demo, you press f and it goes fullscreen, but the position of the canvas is wrong, and this is due to the fact i use this css scaling things
# [17:27] <jetienne> Pomax: if i remove the css scaling thing, the fullscreen goes well
# [17:27] <Pomax> not to my knowledge - full screen is usually a matter of setting both .width and .height, and css width/height to the window's dimensions
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# [17:29] <jetienne> Pomax: ok thanks. both ff and chrome had some small css issue when fullscreen came out.
# [17:30] <Pomax> interestingly the unused area matches to the <html> element in the developer tools
# [17:30] <Pomax> so it might be that the HTML code around your canvas is interfering with correct placement
# [17:31] <jaami> can someone help to convert one home page PSD into html5? i have basic understanding but few things are confusing for me. i downloaded a sample PSD for learning purpose.
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# [17:32] <jetienne> Pomax: maybe... same code works well on firefox. Well not a big issue for the moemnt
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# [17:33] <jaami> i have the images ready and coded my html and css file but its not complete and may have problems
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# [17:34] <jaami> i think one page conversion will be very helpfull to make a complete website.
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# [17:36] <jaami> an hour will be a great favor from your side. please help
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# [17:54] <Pomax> jaami, do you have $200? an hour of almost anyone's time in this channel will cost you a non-trivial amount.
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# [17:55] <Pomax> you don't ask someone to turn your PSD file into an html mockup, that's like asking an IRC channel full of car mechanics if they want to give your car a quick tuneup for free =)
# [17:56] <Pomax> (if it genuinely is a simple design, then you can surely take the time to read a few tutorials on how to do it yourself)
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# [17:57] <jaami> Pomax: you are dangerious ~~:((
# [17:57] <Pomax> no, I'm a realist
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# [17:58] <Pomax> a lot of people here are web developers by trade.
# [17:58] <Pomax> asking them to do their job for free is not a very nice thing to ask
# [17:58] <Pomax> an hour is a lot of money to most people here.
# [17:59] <jaami> yeh, i am in the impression that many are ready to help for free and infact its true
# [18:00] <Pomax> I'm perfectly willing to look at your PSD file and tell you how to do it yourself.
# [18:00] <Pomax> but like most people here, I will not do your work for you, in the same way we don't do people's homework for them.
# [18:00] <Pomax> I will not give you an hour of my time to dedicatedly turn a graphics file into an HTML mockup
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# [18:02] <jaami> ofcourse, i will have do the conversion. i was looking for somehelp not sure how much problem i can create
# [18:04] <jaami> no return of a favor to the instructor except for that i can give the same to someone else
# [18:04] <Pomax> do you have your attempt up online somewhere for us to look at, with the reference image as well?
# [18:05] <Itrace_> Can I repeat the <header> element multiple times on a page, similar to the <footer> element?
# [18:05] <jaami> hmm, good question. pastebin is all i have and really was thinking where to upload images :))
# [18:05] <Pomax> Itrace_, header and footer are semantic elements, having them more than once per section or document doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but is not "illegal"
# [18:06] <Pomax> jaami, it's better to upload it as an actual hosted page so we can see what it does
# [18:06] <jaami> right, another mission in hand and days go on wings
# [18:07] <jaami> :))
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# [18:07] <jaami> Pomax: help again
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# [18:07] <Pomax> you don't have hosting?
# [18:08] <jaami> hmm, dont have money. hosting is no problem
# [18:08] <Itrace_> pomax: OK. I understood it as the header and footer were in relation to that particular section or article of the document. I didn't realize header and footer referred to the document as a whole.
# [18:08] <mistenkt> Anyone here whos used Etch.js and has 5minutes to spare to help me with a couple of issues ?
# [18:09] <Pomax> Itrace_, no I meant you can use one per section, and one for the entire document, so it kind of depended on what you meant with "multiple"
# [18:09] <Itrace_> Pomax: Thanks.
# [18:09] <jaami> Pomax: aam i closer to get any help or falling free?
# [18:09] <Pomax> if you're using one for document header, and one for each section, that's perfectly legitimate semantic use
# [18:10] <Pomax> jaami, if you have a page that I can look at online, and you have a refernce image, then you can get people to look at it. If you can then ask targeted questions a la "I can't seem to get ... to work, what am I doing wrong", we'll be perfectly happy to help you find out how to do things right
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# [18:12] <jaami> ahh, perfect answer and i really appriciate that. hope will come back with the crystal
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# [20:02] <tantek> paul_irish, pet peeve about modernizr - "Allow this website to use space on your disk?"
# [20:02] <tantek> seriously, no, please, make it stop.
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# [20:09] <Jon47> tantek: I imagine it's up to the browser to decide whether to prompt the user for permission of a site to use a certain feature, can you not configure Modernizr to not include that feature?
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# [20:12] <tantek> jon47 - seems like it's the default behavior of Modernizr, hence I'm blaming it.
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# [20:13] <Jon47> did you turn *all* the features on? modernizr doesn't really have a "default" build..
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# [20:13] <tantek> jon47 - whatever is the least work for developers is the default
# [20:14] <tantek> e.g. sites like this: http://leighferrarayoga.com/schedule/
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# [20:14] <tantek> yeah no, it doesn't need 1MB of storage.
# [20:14] <tantek> I wish I could tell Safari deny all 1MB storage requests because it's just stupid false positives from Modernizr
# [20:15] <tantek> or deny all "testdb"
# [20:17] <Jon47> that site is using 1.5, I don't know for certain but I bet that Modernizr didn't have the "build configurator" option at that time
# [20:17] <Jon47> and i also bet that Safari didn't pop up those permissions request confirmation boxes either
# [20:18] <tantek> on every single page load.
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# [20:18] <tantek> so is this fixed in modernizr and there are just sites using old modernizr out there?
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# [20:19] <Jon47> thats my guess, i'm not one of the authors
# [20:20] <grantg> tantek: Gotta love hw acceleration differences between browsers
# [20:20] <grantg> http://grantgalitz.org/canvas_tests/css_scale.html will be fast in firefox, slow in google chrome
# [20:20] <grantg> http://grantgalitz.org/canvas_tests/canvas_scale.html will be slow in firefox, fast in google chrome
# [20:21] <grantg> because firefox does layout acceleration, but not context2d acceleration
# [20:21] <grantg> while google chrome does context2d acceleration, but not layout acceleration
# [20:22] <tantek> grantg - is there a bug in bugzilla requesting context2d acceleration? if not, could you file one?
# [20:22] <grantg> [inset html5 apps being targeted to run on only one browser]
# [20:22] <grantg> *insert
# [20:22] <grantg> tantek: There is, but the point still stands
# [20:22] <tantek> link?
# [20:22] <grantg> a bunch actually
# [20:22] <grantg> there are a dozen drawImage bugs in the tracker already
# [20:22] <tantek> are there any html5 apps this actually effects?
# [20:23] <grantg> yes
# [20:23] <grantg> for me I user agent sniff
# [20:23] <tantek> listed in the bug(s)?
# [20:23] <tantek> grantg - UA sniffing will fail over time
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# [20:23] <tantek> it's very fragile
# [20:23] <grantg> I know, but I need to do it for hw acceleration
# [20:23] <grantg> As firefox and google chrome do very different things on hw accel
# [20:23] <tantek> everyone is just going to end up pretending to be everyone else so they get all the "uplevel" content dujour
# [20:24] <tantek> so good luck with maintaining UA sniffing
# [20:24] <grantg> did you see the test cases?
# [20:24] <tantek> grantg - bugzilla bug?
# [20:24] <tantek> (that references your test cases)
# [20:24] <grantg> oh, I just made the test cases
# [20:25] <grantg> actually linked them to crbugs
# [20:25] <tantek> oh cool
# [20:25] <tantek> well if it's a bug in FF, would appreciate a bug in bugzilla.mozilla.org
# [20:25] <grantg> as I hate how google chrome doesn't accelerate layout
# [20:25] <grantg> so if you scale a canvas with css, you're gonna grind to 5 fps
# [20:25] <grantg> in google chrome
# [20:25] <grantg> you have to scale with context2d in chrome
# [20:26] <grantg> while for firefox you MUST scale with css
# [20:26] <grantg> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=drawImage+slow
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# [20:26] <grantg> literally a hella-ton of drawImage-slow bugs on the tracker
# [20:27] <grantg> as it's a useless function in firefox to scale
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# [20:27] <grantg> I sniff out firefox though in ua sniffing
# [20:28] <grantg> via detecting mozRequestAnimationFrame
# [20:28] <grantg> I'd figure once firefox removes mozRequestAnimationFrame for standard rAF, they'd have normal context2d accel down. :P
# [20:29] <tantek> is there no way to feature test for context2d accel directly?
# [20:29] <tantek> perhaps make that a feature request for modernizr :P
# [20:30] <tantek> so you don't have to worry about maintaining hack-detection like mozRequestAnimationFrame
# [20:30] <tantek> (e.g. if WebKit starts supporting that API, you're screwed)
# [20:30] <grantg> lol
# [20:31] <grantg> I won't break imho, I'll just have shittier gfx to display if browsers fail to be detected for their user-agent optimized paths
# [20:31] <grantg> ugh
# [20:31] <grantg> also a lot of comps come without gpus
# [20:32] <grantg> so I still have to deal with slo-mo canvas anyways at some point
# [20:32] <grantg> tantek: This is why so many people were complaining js gameboy color was running too slow for them
# [20:33] <grantg> because of browsers having a lack of gpu accel
# [20:33] <grantg> because the bottleneck isn't the cpu interpreter in js, it's the browser itself. xD
# [20:34] <tantek> grantg - did any of the people complaining about js gameboy file a bug on it? didn't see any in that query you provided.
# [20:34] <grantg> See https://github.com/grantgalitz/GameBoy-Online/wiki/Having-problems-with-sound-or-performance%3F
# [20:34] <grantg> tantek: I have separate bugs for that
# [20:34] <grantg> I'd need to log-in to re-find
# [20:36] <grantg> tantek: filing a bug for js gbc is too wide-spanning
# [20:36] <grantg> I would personally submit the canvas_case.html reduced test case
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# [20:36] <grantg> as that's the issue
# [20:36] <tantek> with recent FF I presume?
# [20:36] <grantg> yeah
# [20:37] <tantek> e.g. this bug claims it was fixed in 11
# [20:37] <tantek> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=707143
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# [20:37] <grantg> I have vs. 12
# [20:38] <tantek> grantg - are you on Mac or Windows?
# [20:38] <grantg> http://grantgalitz.org/canvas_tests/canvas_scale.html slow for you on firefox?
# [20:38] <grantg> mac
# [20:38] <tantek> seems like there are different bugs
# [20:38] <tantek> yeah go ahead and file it as a new bug
# [20:38] <grantg> as in, does it take up a whole core on your computer?
# [20:38] <tantek> appreciate the test case
# [20:38] <grantg> no prob
# [20:39] <grantg> look at the small diff between css_scale.html and canvas_scale.html
# [20:39] <grantg> it makes or breaks whole html5 demos
# [20:39] <tantek> I believe it
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# [20:45] <grantg> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=753924
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# [20:46] <tantek> thanks grantg - appreciated!
# [20:46] <grantg> no prob
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# [20:49] <grantg> I put up the two versions
# [20:49] <grantg> so the devs can see what's accelerated and what's not
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# [20:50] <David_Bradbury> grantg: Turn the anti-aliasing off :p
# [20:50] <grantg> David_Bradbury: It's a straight scale to integer width and height
# [20:50] <grantg> and the same page runs super fast in chrome
# [20:51] <grantg> for canvas_scale.html that is
# [20:51] <David_Bradbury> Oh I'm not saying that's an issue. I just like crisp edges :D
# [20:51] <grantg> that's a hack around the problem
# [20:51] <grantg> as that's nearest neighbor
# [20:52] <grantg> that's still cpu based fyi
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# [20:53] <David_Bradbury> Ah
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# [20:54] <David_Bradbury> I've been debating writing an emulator in JS. I just need to actually put the time into it.
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# [21:09] <Moo^> David_Bradbury: I have better idea... write it in.... CoffeeScript! :)
# [21:14] <greggies> CoffeeScript is sweet
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# [21:15] <jarek> but debugging it is still painful
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# [21:15] <jarek> https://github.com/jashkenas/coffee-script/issues/558
# [21:15] <socialhapy> ★ Issue #558 on coffee-script (pmuellr; 1y, 9m ago): line number mapping for debug
# [21:16] <jarek> is there any language that support that new source mappings thing?
# [21:17] <jarek> Dart maybe?
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# [21:33] <grantg> tantek: Apparently it's accelerated on lion though
# [21:33] <grantg> but only because of core graphics
# [21:33] <grantg> they still should implement accelerated skia or somethin' for snow
# [21:33] <grantg> and other OSes
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# [21:34] <paul_irish> tantek: yeah the websql database creation was fixed maybe 1.2 years ago. they're running an old modernizr. :/
# [21:34] <paul_irish> https://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/commit/37caffbd2d5
# [21:34] <socialhapy> ★ Commit on Modernizr by paulirish (6m, 2w ago): chrome incognito doesnt throw on websqldb anymore. hooray.
# [21:35] <paul_irish> chrome incognito would reveal openDatabase but fail to use it so we did a functional test. the safari prompt is a setting that is not a default.
# [21:35] * grantg still is wondering why html layout is not accelerated on chrome though
# [21:35] <paul_irish> but anyway, we ended up ignoring the incognito false positive becasue the prompts were annoying (so were creating websql db's we couldn't delete (yes you cannot delete a websql db...))
# [21:36] <tantek> sorry to hear paul_irish - the irony of running an old modernizr. ;)
# [21:36] <paul_irish> feature detection isn't the panacea we'd like it to be. :)
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# [21:37] <paul_irish> grantg, tantek: one of the mozilla GPU devs confirmed you cant feature test for hw accel. and that it wouldnt be useful if you could; some things may run slower in hw accel
# [21:37] <paul_irish> basically you need to perf test
# [21:37] <tantek> good to know
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# [21:38] <grantg> well, drawImage will run like poo without hw acceleration
# [21:38] <grantg> as gpus are designed to scale
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# [22:35] <Jayflux> Is there any point of the <embed> tag these days? flash videos seem to work fine without it on all browsers so I don't know what its value is..
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# [22:46] <Jon47> ya, most embedded content you see is included using the object tag, or an iframe these days..
# [22:46] <Jon47> good question
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# [23:00] <David_Bradbury> Ugg, meta tags are so messy
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# [23:00] <tantek> yeah, just say no to meta tags. use visible data instead with #microformats ;)
# [23:02] <David_Bradbury> Now make iPhone, Android, and iPad, and ie6 recognize them :p
# [23:04] <tantek> David_Bradbury - iOS / Android is certainly possible, but IE6 is a bit too old unfortunately.
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# [23:04] <tantek> IE7+ can use Oomph: http://microformats.org/wiki/Oomph
# [23:05] <David_Bradbury> My main thing is setting the web-app information such as the initial-scale, the status-bar-style, setting the user-scaling properties, etc..
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# [23:05] <David_Bradbury> I don't know how that would be done with microformats
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# [23:07] <tantek> David_Bradbury - indeed. much of that sounds like web app manifest stuff.
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# [23:07] <David_Bradbury> Indeed
# [23:08] <David_Bradbury> Things that Apple and Google really shouldn't be using meta-tags for
# [23:08] <tantek> I sympathize with the pain of appcache/manifest stuff.
# [23:08] <tantek> right
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# [23:08] <tantek> trying to do it right here: http://mozilla.github.com/webapps-spec/
# [23:08] <David_Bradbury> I approve
# [23:08] <David_Bradbury> That's exactly how it should be done
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# [23:10] <tantek> thanks David_Bradbury
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# [23:10] <David_Bradbury> Is that your work?
# [23:11] <tantek> I work with the editor, Anant.
# [23:11] <David_Bradbury> That's very cool.
# [23:12] <David_Bradbury> If you'd like, I can take a look at it more later and see if there is any thoughts I can throw your way
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# [23:13] <Nette> htlm5
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# [23:21] <Jon47> html6
# [23:21] <Jon47> we are ready now.
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# [23:29] <Velmont> application/x-web-app-manifest+json << oh man, really? x-? That so useful prefix? :P
# [23:29] <tantek> David_Bradbury - certainly. Feel free to also comment at irc://irc.mozilla.org/openwebapps - Anant (the editor) usually hangs out there.
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# [23:52] <ProLoser|Work> what would be a good way to splice this in html? http://cl.ly/1p201e3l3U3t022k193D
# [23:54] <ProLoser|Work> DL? Fieldsets + legends?
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# Session Close: Fri May 11 00:00:00 2012

The end :)