/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-06-15 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Jun 15 00:00:01 2012
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:51] <newy6> hello
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# [01:16] <Nasrudin> Hi there. If I wanted to build a game in HTML5 using the canvas similar to the early final fantasy games when it comes to looks, so I could basically use pixel art for everything, how would you guys handle animations of those characters?
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# [01:17] <Nasrudin> Think about walking cicles, sword swings, stuff like that
# [01:17] <Nasrudin> as in the early zelda games
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# [01:21] <newy6> you'd need a drawing library
# [01:21] <newy6> nasrudin: check out stuff like http://www.peintjs.com/
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# [01:25] <Nasrudin> Thanks :)
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# [01:26] <Nasrudin> The demo of her walking is pretty slow though
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# [01:55] <Nasrudin> newy6: Any chance you know a lighter one? In the end it should be for pretty simple art
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# [02:00] <newy6> nasrudin: err fabric?
# [02:00] <newy6> fabric.js
# [02:00] <Nasrudin> thanks :)
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# [03:55] <m1chael> i'm working on a concept for a browser/server-side video editor.. ive never actually done any video editing before in my life with any program, so im kind of taking a stab in the dark... can anyone take a look at what i've created so far and let me know what you think? (if it would work, if there is something better out there, etc.) http://www.vipautographs.com/static/test/
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# [08:43] <rookie84> hi there.
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# [08:44] <rookie84> is it safe to use HTML5/CSS3, i mean is it widely supported ?
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# [08:50] <Trisox> html5 yes go for it.. Css3 "safe" sure you can use it doesnt break stuff and "no" but you can creat fallback if needed depends on the client etc does he want exact pixel perfect layout or not
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# [08:51] <rookie84> Trisox: thanks.
# [08:52] <rookie84> what about the various html5 tags like <audio> etc.. safe to use them?
# [08:52] <Trisox> with fallback sure same goes for video
# [08:52] <Trisox> again depends on client if support needed ;-)
# [08:52] <Trisox> wich browsers do you support?
# [08:53] <rookie84> i'm just a web developer, html5 makes it easier some times :)
# [08:53] <rookie84> 'with fallback' = means?
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# [08:53] <Trisox> i'm just a "webdeveloper" hahha good one
# [08:54] <Trisox> support for other browser that dont support css3/html5 ?
# [08:54] <rookie84> Trisox: php/mysql stuff is what I do.. not much on the frontend :)
# [08:54] <Trisox> ahhh
# [08:54] <Trisox> try http://html5boilerplate.com/
# [08:55] <Trisox> lame answer i know but should get you going
# [08:55] <rookie84> great a framework
# [08:55] <rookie84> i love frameworks.
# [08:55] <Trisox> haha
# [08:56] <rookie84> Trisox: why lame?
# [08:56] <Trisox> cause every one knows the link hehe ;)
# [08:56] <Trisox> apperently not but oke ;)
# [08:56] <rookie84> yeh i've seen this site, but still its not lame.. thanks.
# [08:57] <Trisox> and also http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/
# [08:57] <Trisox> if you like frameworks
# [08:57] <Trisox> HTML5
# [08:57] <Trisox> Built to support new HTML5 elements and syntax.
# [08:57] <Trisox> Progressively enhanced components for ultimate style.
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# [08:57] <rookie84> I've used bootstrap yeh :)
# [08:57] <rookie84> its nice.
# [08:57] <Trisox> prob what you want.. any who i'm off working again
# [08:57] <rookie84> thanks Trisox, have a great day!
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# [08:58] <Trisox> ill try not to fall al sleep bday's duuring the work week pff never good hehe
# [08:59] <Trisox> always feel the effect next morning
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# [08:59] <tw2113> ?g caniuse
# [08:59] <bot-t> tw2113, When can I use... Support tables for HTML5, CSS3, etc - http://caniuse.com/
# [09:00] <tw2113> awesome reference for you two
# [09:00] <rookie84> tw2113: why not use the boiler plate ?
# [09:01] <tw2113> i did say ":reference" right?
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# [09:01] <tw2113> it's a website that shows browser support for each feature
# [09:01] <rookie84> yep, mine is a question ;)
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# [09:01] <tw2113> i'm not even talking about H5BP
# [09:01] <rookie84> i was wondering if a good framework?(boilerplate) is available
# [09:02] <tw2113> i'm sure there are
# [09:02] <tw2113> html5 is a hot topic and everyone is making their own tools and solutions
# [09:02] <rookie84> then why waste time with elements, checking for the support and fallbacks?
# [09:02] <rookie84> i mean boilerplate takes cares of that? doesn't it?
# [09:02] <tw2113> because a framework isn't a magic fixall
# [09:02] <tw2113> you need to know the caveats
# [09:02] <tw2113> h5bp = skeleton to start from
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# [09:03] <tw2113> and there is more to html5/css/js apis than just markup
# [09:04] <rookie84> tw2113: i agree.
# [09:04] <tw2113> so use and reference caniuse regularly
# [09:04] <tw2113> so you know when you need to handle fallback stuff
# [09:04] <rookie84> cool sounds great, thanks!
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# [15:20] <xec> in chrome dev tools (inspecting css rules) i used to be able to change the type of color from hex to rgb and hsl by clicking the square, but in newer versions of chrome i only get a color picker instead. anyone know if this is an option i can change, or change the color type some other way?
# [15:21] <ryan_tait> i think if you click on the settings gear in bot right you can change the color format to "As Authored"
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# [15:23] <xec> ooh, or i can just choose HSL, which is what i really want anyway! thanks a lot
# [15:23] <ryan_tait> and if you shift click on the lil square
# [15:23] <ryan_tait> it will switch formats
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# [15:24] <ryan_tait> no probs
# [15:26] <xec> oh god, i tried cmd+click, option+click and ctrl+click but not shift, lol
# [15:26] <xec> shift works too :) thanks again
# [15:27] <ryan_tait> glad to help
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# [15:28] <xec> this is actually the #1 feature i miss in firebug - i open chrome just to do this ;)
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# [16:24] <sunbeam> how can i best center (on a full width page) a position: absolute; div thats 1000px width
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# [16:44] <moo-_-> sunbeam: with javascript
# [16:44] <moo-_-> absolute positions are tricky otherwise
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# [17:17] <marcocarag> sunbeam: div { width: 1000px; position: absolute; left: 50%; margin-left: -500px; } http://css-tricks.com/quick-css-trick-how-to-center-an-object-exactly-in-the-center/
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# [17:21] <Pomax> hm. I know there are 13 elements in HTML5 that don't need a closing tag, even though they have content, but I can't seem to find what determines whether they get autoclosed.
# [17:21] <Pomax> <p> lol <p> more lol <h2>next section</h2> for instance is valid, but why is it valid?
# [17:21] <Pomax> is it because h2 is a block element, or because h2 is in a list of "this closes implicitly closable elements"?
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# [17:22] <Pomax> say I change <a> to have display:block, would <p>lol<a>more lol</a> close off the paragraph, too?
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# [17:24] <daze> some elements automatically close some other elements
# [17:24] <daze> e.g. <p> closes <p>
# [17:24] <daze> <li> closes <li>
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# [17:25] <daze> but I would advise on using xml-ish syntaxx
# [17:25] <daze> not necessarily closing <img> with <img />, but at least closing all <p> and <li> properly
# [17:25] <daze> less problems in the long run :)
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# [17:37] <sunbeam> does anyone know if it's possible to get the background image of html{} 100px from the center of the page?
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# [17:54] <moo-_-> Pomax: there was SO question about it
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# [17:58] <Pomax> daze: it's not about what I use, it's about what this parser we're writing should pay attention to.
# [17:59] <daze> oh, then you should conform to the W3C standard
# [17:59] <Pomax> which is what I was asking.
# [17:59] <jarek> Pomax: I have read your article on Bezier curves, pretty impressive work
# [17:59] <daze> I'm not sure if writing a new parser is a good idea
# [17:59] <Pomax> I can't find a document that gives the rule for when an implicitly closable element gets closed
# [17:59] <daze> I suppose you could take some webkit lib and get a parsed tree out of html
# [18:00] <Pomax> no I couldn't, becuase it's an online html editor's validator, so it's a JS library
# [18:00] <Pomax> *because
# [18:00] <daze> ouch :]
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# [18:01] <jarek> Pomax: do you know any software that would allow for combining cubic beziers, quadratic beziers and b-splines in single path?
# [18:01] <jarek> Pomax: this is technically possible, right?
# [18:01] <daze> Pomax: I'd use the browsers parsing algorithm then
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# [18:02] <daze> create some invisible iframe with user's content
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# [18:02] <daze> and get the tree that way
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# [18:02] <daze> parsing html is HARD
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# [18:02] <jarek> daze: yeah, especially HTML5
# [18:03] <daze> actually, you could maybe generate the tree in memory, without use of iframes
# [18:03] <daze> if you don't need css properties of elements
# [18:03] <daze> (as css properties can be gotten only if the content is rendered on screen)
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# [18:04] <daze> to back up my 'HARD' statement, the parser should conform to this: http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html5-20100624/
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# [18:09] <jarek> is there a framework that would allow me to create client-server apps with thin server (should only handle data store requests) and rich client?
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# [18:10] <jarek> all I can find for Node.js are bloated MVC frameworks
# [18:10] <jarek> that are generating views on server side
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# [18:11] <daze> if it should only handle data store requests, then it's not a framework, I suppose
# [18:12] <daze> anyway, mvc makes sense, as you would want to validate the data before storing
# [18:12] <jarek> daze: framework is basically a peace of code that could be reused by many projects
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# [18:12] <jarek> daze: I freaking hate MVC
# [18:12] <daze> yeah, but it's supposed to have some overhead, as it's meant to be universal
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# [18:13] <daze> with storing data, you'd only have MC :]
# [18:13] <jarek> the whole term MVC is actually meaningless (there is no agreement what actually "model", "view" and "controller" are)
# [18:13] <daze> you get a request, route it to a controller, that maps the data to a model and initiates it's storage
# [18:13] <jarek> daze: I would communicate with the server via WebSockets
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# [18:14] <jarek> everything that user sees on screen would be generated by client-side scripts, server would be only providing JSON-encoded data
# [18:14] <daze> never mind the method, you'd have to tell the server 'what' you want to store, so it can figure out where to store it
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# [18:18] <daze> it really depends on how extensible you want your app to be
# [18:19] <daze> it could be a few little php scripts
# [18:19] <daze> or a full-blown zf2 app, without the views
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# [18:19] <daze> although you could use views for json output :)
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# [18:30] <jarek> daze: I'm building issue tracker similar to the one from Github
# [18:30] <jarek> I would like it to be as responsive and fast as possible, so I would prefer to reduce the usage of server side technologies to minimum
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# [18:31] <jarek> I'm not sure why nobody implements apps this way
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# [18:31] <jarek> it's probably because of SEO (dynamically generated views won't be indexed)
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# [18:32] <moo-_-> jarek: well twitter did
# [18:32] <moo-_-> and they switched back to server-side rendering :)
# [18:34] <daze> 'minimum' does not always equal 'faster', at least not by a meaningful margin
# [18:34] <daze> and JavaScript is slow when overused
# [18:35] <daze> esp. if you use some js framework with functions inside of functions inside of functions
# [18:35] <daze> the variable resolver's path gets long
# [18:35] <jarek> daze: it used correctly it could be several times faster than loading the whole page via http request
# [18:35] <jarek> s/it used/if used
# [18:36] <jarek> daze: I'm not a big fan of jQuery-style functions
# [18:36] <daze> if you have a http request response of less than 100ms, there is no real difference
# [18:36] <jarek> daze: though I don't think that nested callbacks have any significant impact on performance
# [18:36] <daze> not 'several times' at least
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# [18:36] <daze> they do have some impact
# [18:36] <jarek> the bottleneck is the DOM
# [18:37] <daze> there was a great talk from one of YUI guys
# [18:37] <daze> with benchmarks and stuff
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# [18:37] <jarek> great, then I'm already doing it the right way
# [18:37] <daze> when you call, say, window.whatever from a nested function, it checks for 'window' variable in every level
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# [18:38] <daze> and when the function is 6 levels deep, it could add up
# [18:38] <daze> esp. if you do it in a loop :]
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# [18:39] <jarek> ohh, you mean nested objects
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# [18:39] <daze> http://yuiblog.com/yuitheater/smarr-performance.m4v
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# [18:42] <daze> also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fUGWFGUrUw
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# [18:50] <jarek> daze: thanks, I'm going to watch the second talk
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# [18:50] <jarek> last talk by Zakas that I watched was life-changing for me
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# [18:51] <jarek> (the one where he is discussing sandbox pattern)
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# [18:53] <bartell> does it make sense to use a definition list (<dl> in HTML5) combined with microdata for a list of addresses..?
# [18:53] <bartell> Kind of like this: http://pastebin.com/CCwt87pc
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# [19:01] <daze> yes, but enclose spans in <address>
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# [19:01] <daze> http://p.defau.lt/?eUQxwiFGOAEGsZXTg1_Yww
# [19:01] <daze> like so
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# [19:04] <bartell> awesome, thanks daze. One more question.. is there a valid way to wrap the dt and dd in a block element (for styling)?
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# [19:05] <daze> use display: block, as you can only have <dt> and <dd> elements in a <dl>
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# [19:05] <daze> dt and dd can be set as block level via css
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# [19:08] <bartell> daze, ahh. but is there a way to group the dt and dl and style all of that together.. I don't know if that makes sense anymore.. hm.
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# [19:09] <daze> grouping - no, but it's easy to achieve the same effect with css
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# [19:09] <daze> you can clear:left on dt or sth
# [19:09] <Adawerk> !"
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# [19:10] <bartell> Ahhh. Thanks daze. That was very helpful, appreciate it.
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# [20:20] <fourlastor> hello everyone
# [20:21] <fourlastor> was wondering, why the use of a star as the doctype here? <!doctype html public "✰"> that's in the html5boilerplate website
# [20:22] <Jon47> it's just showing off
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# [20:23] <Jon47> like an artist signs her paintings
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# [20:25] <fourlastor> got it, the validator fails checking the doctype (and then every single line in the html) :P
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# [20:32] <David_Bradbury> <!doctype html public "✰"> shouldn't fail validation
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# [20:34] <Pomax> given that it's just <!doctype html>, wouldn't anything in addition to that fail validation?
# [20:34] <Pomax> there is no public/system etc, for html5 doctype.
# [20:35] <David_Bradbury> I should amend that, saying that it is valid HTML, but not part of HTML5
# [20:36] <Pomax> daze: the browser does not tell you what you've done wrong. just that there's an error. you then still need a parser to tell you what went wrong =)
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# [20:37] <Pomax> I don't care that parsing html is hard. we're not writing a full parser in an hour, we have a pretty good thing going on so far (tokenised string walk with DOM tree creation as we walk the string) but adding in implicit closure would make it work that little bit better.
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# [20:39] <Pomax> (kind of late reply, had to step out for a 'someone's leaving' lunch)
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# [20:48] <Pomax> turns out http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html5-20100624/syntax.html#optional-tags covers what I wanted to know. so: thanks
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# [22:36] <daze> Pomax: if you have the manpower/resources, then by all means do what's best :] I was just thinking there, that writing a parser on your own (a single-person operation) is a bit too much.
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# [22:37] <Pomax> yeah, as a single person thing it'd be quite daunting.
# [22:37] <Pomax> this is part of a mozilla project, I'm sure we can toss more people at it if it becomes crucial =P
# [22:38] <Pomax> (it's getting attention from about 4 people atm)
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# [22:44] <daze> :)
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# [22:46] <daze> offtopic: just saw "The Dish", am reading about fact vs fiction on the internets, stumbled upon this (context: operating a satelite receiver dish during the moon landing): "The Director had actually calculated how fast for teams of men to wind the electric motors in the event of a total power failure."
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# [22:49] <Pomax> gonna be honest: that's a director who's thinking on his toes
# [22:50] <Pomax> "yes but what if ALL ELSE fails? I want everyone to know what their handcrank rating is."
# [22:50] <Pomax> =D
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# [22:51] <daze> yeah :D
# [22:51] <daze> fun movie, really
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# Session Close: Sat Jun 16 00:00:00 2012

The end :)