/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-06-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 19 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  268. # [08:11] <wun> How do i implement my site on html5? http://chranger.com
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  378. # [11:12] <sedovsek> Hey, which software is used to record such screencasts as this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_O9_C2ZjoA&feature=player_embedded +@paul_irish
  379. # [11:14] <EmmaJ> you make mobile apps sedovsek?
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  382. # [11:20] <sedovsek> EmmaJ: Huh, not exactly, why?
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  385. # [11:22] <EmmaJ> oh just wondering, working on some atm and i noticed that video showed a mobile sim
  386. # [11:25] <paul_irish> sedovsek: screenflow
  387. # [11:25] <paul_irish> camtasia also works, so i hear
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  389. # [11:26] <sedovsek> Thanks!
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  400. # [11:39] <dnewkerk-keyz> sedovsek: I just bought Screenflow a moment ago myself… MacUpdate has a bundle deal
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  402. # [11:41] <dnewkerk-keyz> http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/06/09/macupdate-bundle if you're interested
  403. # [11:43] <sedovsek> dnewkerk-keyz: Cool offer, thanks.
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  405. # [11:43] <sedovsek> Unfortunatelly I would only go for Screenflow, but thats 50% off already.
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  407. # [11:44] <dnewkerk-keyz> sedovsek: no problem… I couldn't resist buying haha… I've been meaning to get Parallels (or Fusion, doesn't matter to me) since my old version didn't work after upgrading to Lion… and my wife said she'd be up for playing Civilization V :)
  408. # [11:45] <sedovsek> Hehe.
  409. # [11:45] <sedovsek> Fair offer, then.
  410. # [11:45] <dnewkerk-keyz> indeed
  411. # [11:45] <ManT> Hi Everyone
  412. # [11:46] <dnewkerk-keyz> I've avoided making screencasts for I dunno, years :P even though I really want to, since I just hated the UI of Snapz (which I got in another bundle many years ago)
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  415. # [11:50] <sedovsek> I did something really cool with Chrome Dev Tools's console and I would like to show that to other professors.
  416. # [11:51] <sedovsek> So that's why I'm in a *need* for screencast software.
  417. # [11:52] <dnewkerk-keyz> sweet
  418. # [11:53] <dnewkerk-keyz> sedovsek: I never even noticed but evidently now Quicktime has basic screen casting built in, if you just need the basics
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  420. # [11:54] <sedovsek> Hm, ought to be enough. After all it's just a few lines of javascript...
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  424. # [11:55] <sedovsek> Paying 100 usd for 1min of screencasting is a bit steep :P
  425. # [11:55] <sedovsek> Too professional tool for my needs atm.
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  520. # [14:29] <ManT> What are they ways how to stream the video?
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  528. # [14:37] <moo-_-> ManT: <video> tag
  529. # [14:37] <moo-_-> if you mean HTML5?
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  534. # [14:44] <ManT> moo-_-, I using rtsp stream.
  535. # [14:45] <ManT> I'm trying to play video in HTML5 which uses RTSP stream.
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  541. # [14:48] <chee> surreal
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  544. # [14:56] <moo-_-> ManT: no go
  545. # [14:56] <moo-_-> no browser supports RTSP
  546. # [14:57] <moo-_-> you need to transcode the streams something the browser can understand
  547. # [14:58] <daveluke> anyone here do html5 games?
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  559. # [15:05] <ManT> moo-_-, could you tell me more about this?
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  630. # [16:49] <guy> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Canvas_tutorial%3ABasic_animations
  631. # [16:49] <guy> holly fuk. I've spent two hours reading all the canvas docs to learn that – anvas element was never designed to be [animated]
  632. # [16:50] <guy> which was the whole point of learning canvas in the first place.
  633. # [16:53] <Pomax> create a draw loop, draw your contect on every honoured requestanimationframe.
  634. # [16:54] <Pomax> done, animation achieved.
  635. # [16:54] <Pomax> *content
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  638. # [16:57] <gnarf> guy: there is a library out there that is specificly for animating canvas
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  640. # [16:57] <gnarf> http://www.kineticjs.com/
  641. # [16:58] <guy> The canvas itself is not designed to be animated. No library will help to compensate for the fact that every element has to be redrawn upon every frame.
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  643. # [16:59] <Pomax> false
  644. # [16:59] <Pomax> the canvas can be blitted.
  645. # [17:00] <Pomax> so yo udon't have to redraw the entire canvas, only the parts that need redrawing, and a good library will help you do that.
  646. # [17:00] <Pomax> also, computers are ridiculously powerful. a 60fps canvas animation that uses a good library behind it will run just fine based on full surface redraw
  647. # [17:01] <guy> I don't know word "blitted". what does it mean?
  648. # [17:01] <gnarf> you can copy a section of canvas to redraw
  649. # [17:01] <Pomax> it means you basically "copy-paste" an update from a buffer onto the main screen
  650. # [17:01] <Pomax> using a small rectangular section, rather than the entire thing
  651. # [17:01] <gnarf> and yes, what Pomax said... 90% of "animation" involves redrawing every element anyway
  652. # [17:02] <guy> well, I am learning Canvas, so I don't want to jump on using libraries straightaway.
  653. # [17:02] <Pomax> the canvas is basically the same as your monitor.
  654. # [17:02] <Pomax> it's a surface on which you can color (sub)pixels.
  655. # [17:03] <guy> Though, after reading through https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Canvas_tutorial it almost feels like it covers everything there is to know about Canvas.
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  657. # [17:03] <Pomax> true, although I'd honestly say there is very little point in learning straight canvas.
  658. # [17:03] <Pomax> it's nice to know, but fairly useless since any real canvas work is going to be through a good library anyway
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  661. # [17:04] <guy> Pomax: recommend a library then, please.
  662. # [17:04] <Pomax> canvas is the low level API upon which meaningful stuff is written for people to actually use. it's a bit like writing your own windowing system because you want to write a text editor. you can, and you'll learn meaningful things, but it's not going to help you write that texteditor
  663. # [17:05] <Pomax> depends on what you want to do, really. what's your aim?
  664. # [17:06] <guy> well, on a most basic level – learn. Probably create a tiny game. (though, please don't recommend any game engines, I am interested in canvas manipulation solely.)
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  668. # [17:08] <Pomax> the thing is that "canvas manipulation" is really anything.
  669. # [17:08] <guy> am I overlooking some library file or is this thing actually written in 400 lines?
  670. # [17:08] <guy> http://www.benjoffe.com/code/demos/canvascape/
  671. # [17:08] <Pomax> you could have a look at processing.js, or paper.js
  672. # [17:08] <guy> Pomax: Thanks, I will.
  673. # [17:09] <Pomax> or gladius for 3D, which is about to have a 0.2 release
  674. # [17:10] <ard_> gladius is a game engine actually
  675. # [17:10] <Pomax> that is true
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  677. # [17:10] <Pomax> but 3d objects with physics and "game engine" are kind of the same thing
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  680. # [17:14] <Pomax> there's also http://jcscript.com/ and https://github.com/kangax/fabric.js/ but it kind of depends on what you want to animate
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  685. # [17:17] <davidmurdoch> anyone know how to change CSS3 animation duration after a certain amount of time with only CSS?
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  699. # [17:28] <guy> Pomax: so this is essentially how would animation work?
  700. # [17:28] <guy> http://dev.anuary.com/game/
  701. # [17:28] <guy> (note, use arrow keys)
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  703. # [17:29] <guy> I don't really understand the purpose of ctx.clearRect(0,0,300,300); in this case, though, since without it would work just the same.
  704. # [17:29] <Pomax> clearRect + fillRect is indeed superfluous
  705. # [17:30] <Pomax> this is a very simple game, and can even be implemented with SVG or div elements on a page.
  706. # [17:30] <guy> Well, I am just putting things in order in my head.
  707. # [17:30] <Pomax> treat canvas, literally, as if it's a monitor.
  708. # [17:31] <Pomax> it can show colored (sub)pixels. there's some commands to change those colors.
  709. # [17:31] <Pomax> anything beyond that is your responsibility.
  710. # [17:31] <Pomax> so if you want this game, you need to be able to color a background, you need to be able to draw a rect, and you need to pull the rect's coordinates from some variables that can be manipulated
  711. # [17:31] <Pomax> (whether that's by keys or mouse or gamepad or neural link is irrelevant)
  712. # [17:32] <Pomax> canvas + JS lets you do all these things.
  713. # [17:32] <Pomax> note that this is not strictly speaking "animation".
  714. # [17:32] <Pomax> yet, anyway. it's interactive redrawing: you change the variable for the little rect, then redraw
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  724. # [17:44] <paul_irish> http://www.ryancollins.me/?p=993
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  726. # [17:45] <guy> Pomax: can you give me a demo of anything built using Gladius?
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  736. # [17:48] <Pomax> guy: hmm, not readily.
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  738. # [17:50] <Pomax> (it's in development atm on https://github.com/gladiusjs/gladius )
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  770. # [18:27] <lancehunt> Does anyone know of any stats on which is the fastest rendering between CSS transforms, WebGL, Canvas, or other techniques?
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  772. # [18:28] <lancehunt> lets just assume a rectangle that blinks on and off as fast as possible
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  774. # [18:28] <lancehunt> no gradient, just a plain update
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  782. # [18:34] <David_Bradbury> Well, ultimately that number is meaningless because each of those technologies have their own uses and should be used for those purposes
  783. # [18:36] <David_Bradbury> Also, it depends on what rendering engine you use
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  794. # [18:43] <lancehunt> David_Bradbury: so, they are all used for creating/modifying the appearance of a HTML5 app....why cant I compare them?
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  796. # [18:45] <David_Bradbury> Because they're designed to accomplish different things. It's like comparing a car to a boat. They're both designed for transportation, but I wouldn't drive a car into the ocean any time soon.
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  798. # [18:45] <David_Bradbury> And while comparing their speeds might be interesting, the 0-60mph measurements aren't going to tell you much
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  825. # [19:11] <lancehunt> David_Bradbur: fine...here is your scenario; I need a rectangle to blink every time a receive a piece of data from an Ajax stream. What is the fastest way to do this within a 1/4 second threshold?
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  827. # [19:12] <lancehunt> David_Bradbur: bonus points: repeat the test with 100, 500, and 1000 rectangles tied to different ID's in the stream
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  829. # [19:16] <lancehunt> David_Bradbury: and more importantly, how can you do this in such a way as to ensure a smooth update 4 times per second without stuttering?
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  835. # [19:25] <David_Bradbury> What sort of accessibility do you need? Does browser support matter? Are you going to label the rectangles? Do you need links?
  836. # [19:25] <David_Bradbury> I shouldn't be having to grasp at straws for information here. Give me all the information and I'll try to help you out, but I'm not going to beg
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  842. # [19:30] <lancehunt> David_Bradbury: modern browsers only (Moz 13, Chrome 19), screw the disabled, and no labels/links, just rectangles on a blank page - perhaps lets make each one a different color, but no more styling than that.
  843. # [19:31] <Pomax> mark ajax stream with numbers matching the rectangle's index in an array rects that you fill while you make them. when you see a stream fragment with a number, rects[number].blink()
  844. # [19:31] <Pomax> don't ask questions, just assume you inserted your rects correctly
  845. # [19:33] <moo-_-> don't question the authority
  846. # [19:33] <moo-_-> here is nothing to see
  847. # [19:33] <moo-_-> move along
  848. # [19:33] <lancehunt> Pomax: bingo
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  850. # [19:36] <lancehunt> Pomax:so the question was, how should the rectangles be rendered, and what should the function blink() do? (assuming impeccable data-stream updating each ID at 4-times per second)
  851. # [19:36] <lancehunt> Pomax: canvas, webgl, div + css, etc?
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  853. # [19:38] <moo-_-> lancehunt: for blink() CSS3 animations are good
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  857. # [19:39] <lancehunt> moo-_-: this is where I started, but the paint overhead was surprisingly high once you hit 50+ rectangles
  858. # [19:39] <Pomax> place your rects as divs.
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  860. # [19:39] <lancehunt> moo-_-: lots of stuttering
  861. # [19:39] <moo-_-> lancehunt: other methods are slower
  862. # [19:39] <Pomax> but always know their size, and place them regardless of whwether you use thme.
  863. # [19:39] <Pomax> give them visibility: hidden or opacity:0 or something
  864. # [19:40] <Pomax> keep them in the DOM, so you don't trigger reflow.
  865. # [19:40] <Pomax> reflow = bad
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  867. # [19:41] <lancehunt> Pomax: good thoughts...let me see if I can workup a jsfiddle with that change...I think I had a display:none going on
  868. # [19:41] <Pomax> display:none literally takes the element out of the visual DOM
  869. # [19:41] <lancehunt> yeah, my bad, didnt think about that until you said it
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  875. # [19:43] <lancehunt> Pomax: which is faster, swapping css classes or directly modifying dom ele?
  876. # [19:44] <lancehunt> assume a off/on css class pair
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  878. # [19:45] <Pomax> no.
  879. # [19:45] <Pomax> here's where we go "all your ethics doesn't mean a damn to me"
  880. # [19:45] <Pomax> you make a blinking gif in a same size div.
  881. # [19:45] <Pomax> and swap.
  882. # [19:46] <Pomax> what load time.
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  884. # [19:47] <Pomax> you could probably just make sure that blinking gif is loaded once you start recting and then just set .style.backgroundImage = ... with a timeout to set it back to none after however much time you need.
  885. # [19:48] <Jon47> i think the blinking square example is contrived
  886. # [19:48] <Jon47> who cares what technology does the blinking square faster
  887. # [19:49] <Pomax> in the absence of a real question, this is the answer I'm giving.
  888. # [19:49] <Pomax> contrived or not, this is what I'd do.
  889. # [19:49] <Jon47> hhaha right, well, i mean the question is contrived
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  893. # [19:51] <lancehunt> Its not contrived, this is for a real-time stock-trading app that plots updates using heatmaps & matrix which consist of.....wait for it.....blinking rectangles
  894. # [19:53] <lancehunt> my omission was because this information doesnt do anything to inform the developer, since in the end, the data source doesnt matter so much as the rectangles and the blinking
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  897. # [19:54] <lancehunt> Pomax: can animated gifs have a transparent background? for some reason I didnt think so
  898. # [19:54] <lancehunt> Pomax: I do infact need different colors, which made it a bit more problematic
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  900. # [19:55] * abstractj|brb is now known as abstractj
  901. # [19:56] <Pomax> gifs can have transparency
  902. # [19:56] <Pomax> it's full transparency, but for a blink, you don't need opacity fading
  903. # [19:57] <Pomax> for real time stock trading, however, my advice would be "ajax? seriously? go use websockets"
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  976. # [21:06] <lancehunt> Pomax: back from lunch - yes, we are using websockets via socket.io
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  980. # [21:07] <lancehunt> Pomax: I tend to omit facts or simplify my problem to help avoid side-debates
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  984. # [21:11] <Pomax> don't do that.
  985. # [21:11] <Pomax> give the information, then say what isn't relevant to the discussion
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  1096. # [23:25] * ggalitz is now known as grantg
  1097. # [23:26] <grantg> So about Apple finally fixing that memory corruption bug in safari - http://i.imgur.com/J46f4.png
  1098. # [23:26] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.113.169) (Quit: nn)
  1099. # [23:26] <grantg> still there
  1100. # [23:26] <grantg> in nightly and stable
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  1103. # [23:27] <grantg> screen trash when changing styles to cause a reflow that unhides a layer
  1104. # [23:27] <grantg> and said layer has a canvas being drawn to
  1105. # [23:27] <grantg> safari in certain cases will corrupt its vram
  1106. # [23:27] <grantg> it's worse now it seems
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  1147. # Session Close: Wed Jun 20 00:00:00 2012

The end :)