/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-07-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jul 06 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: dotpot (~dotpot@host62-123-dynamic.247-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
  4. # [00:00] <rking> Wait, in that doc it has stuff like: <p dir=auto class="u1">
  5. # [00:00] <rking> I thought the quotes were nonoptional for values.
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  9. # [00:06] <Velmont> rking: Nope.
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  12. # [00:07] <Velmont> <!doctype html><meta charset=utf-8><title>My site</title> <-- this is how I start every html document I make.
  13. # [00:08] <Velmont> rking: lost of things got optional and lean with a defined parser for HTML.
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  23. # [00:22] <rking> Velmont: Wait, no <head>?
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  28. # [00:24] <tw2113> some stuff the browsers are able to interpret and render themselves
  29. # [00:25] <rking> Wow. It even validates without the <head>
  30. # [00:25] <rking> Amazing.
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  34. # [00:29] <hober> rking: there's a <head> in that document.
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  36. # [00:29] <hober> and a <body>
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  38. # [00:30] <cgcardona> no </head> and no</body> are valid but I'm not sure about no <head> or <body>
  39. # [00:31] <chee> start tag may be ommitted
  40. # [00:31] <cgcardona> i thought close tags were implied. both are?
  41. # [00:31] <chee> if the first thing inside is an element
  42. # [00:31] <cgcardona> interesting
  43. # [00:31] <chee> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/HTML/Element/head
  44. # [00:31] <chee> see 'tag omission'
  45. # [00:31] <tw2113> anything interesting going on in your part of the internet, cgcardona ?
  46. # [00:32] <cgcardona> I had a blast at Google IO last week and it's got me wanting to do some native android dev. Other than that same old business.
  47. # [00:32] <cgcardona> u?
  48. # [00:32] <cgcardona> anything new or exciting?
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  50. # [00:34] <tw2113> not really
  51. # [00:34] <tw2113> trying to save up for a MBA, but i'm kind of lazy at the same time :D
  52. # [00:34] <cgcardona> MBAs are nice
  53. # [00:34] <cgcardona> when I replace this MBPro I'm gonna go with an air
  54. # [00:34] <tw2113> i figure they're within my budget and can handle everything i'd need out of it
  55. # [00:34] <cgcardona> sure
  56. # [00:35] <cgcardona> a bunch of the devs here use them as their full time machines
  57. # [00:35] <tw2113> cause all I really need is a ton of browsers, sublime text, ftp/ssh, and photoshop for PSD files
  58. # [00:36] <cgcardona> you still doing mostly wordpress dev?
  59. # [00:36] <tw2113> yeah
  60. # [00:36] <tw2113> i've also been told one of the lead core devs does his work on an air
  61. # [00:36] <tw2113> so who am i to think that it wouldn't be enough for my own needs
  62. # [00:37] <hober> my main work laptop is an air
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  65. # [00:39] <cgcardona> we know you have a 16gig ram 1 terabyte SSD unreleased to the public 'air' ;-]
  66. # [00:41] <hober> hahaha, no. it's a stock MacBookAir3,1
  67. # [00:41] <cgcardona> :-]
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  69. # [00:43] <tw2113> cgcardona i'm not planning at all to do fundraising for it like i did the iPhone
  70. # [00:43] <tw2113> i may fake it a bit and make it "you pay me, i'll do some web work for you" style though
  71. # [00:43] * tomlane hopes to attend i/o oneday
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  73. # [00:43] <cgcardona> that's too bad. i was looking forward to the charity tweets. :-]
  74. # [00:43] <tw2113> it wouldn't be anything free donation
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  76. # [00:44] <cgcardona> tomlane: IO was really good this year. I had a pass to WWDC for the last two days but ended up going to Chicago so I didn't make it. I've never been to a WWDC and hope to attend next year.
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  78. # [00:44] <cgcardona> but I haven't used an android device since 2.3 and I'm honestly really impressed with Android 4.1
  79. # [00:45] <cgcardona> between android jelly bean and iOS6 it's gonna be a fun year to be a mobile dev.
  80. # [00:45] <tomlane> cgcardona, i stayed up for a long night watching it live, benefits of technology
  81. # [00:45] <cgcardona> indeed
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  83. # [00:46] <tomlane> i/o makes wwdc seem incredibly boring
  84. # [00:47] <cgcardona> I'm not sure because so many sessions are under NDA so I have no idea what actually happened at wwdc
  85. # [00:47] <cgcardona> with regards to the keynotes. Google giving away $1000 worth of stuff doesn't hurt the excitement level.
  86. # [00:48] <cgcardona> but FWIW if the goal is to get developers interested (and I'm guessing that is the goal) then google was successful cause I'm interested in android 4.1
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  89. # [00:49] <hober> tomlane: have you been to both, to do the apples-to-apples comparison?
  90. # [00:50] <cgcardona> apples-to-googles comparison
  91. # [00:50] <tomlane> hober, no, guess i am wrong to judge as i am looking at it from what they release in video
  92. # [00:50] <hober> cgcardona: heh
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  110. # [01:12] <tw2113> damn right cgcardona
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  112. # [01:12] <cgcardona> ;-]
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  114. # [01:13] <tw2113> *snicker* http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/07/dear-romney-campaign-this-is-how-you-make-a-venn-diagram/259484/
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  298. # [06:09] <SrPx> Can I set an element's height to "100% - 30px"? Because my header is 30px and the div that should be the body below it is becoming 30px bigger than supposed : /
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  435. # [10:26] <SrPx> Does the <canvas> tag replace everything Flash can do? If so, why is not Youtube and others drawing over <canvas> instead of Flash?
  436. # [10:27] * Joins: user_ (~textual@125.211.32.92)
  437. # [10:27] <user_> hello
  438. # [10:28] <user_> anybody here
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  441. # [10:29] <moo-_-> SrPx: because we have something called internet explorer?
  442. # [10:31] <SrPx> moo-_-: but my doubt is, does the Flash has a proper video encoding, or is it just displaying sequential images? Or, in other words, can we display videos on canvas using the same methods they're using for flash?
  443. # [10:31] <moo-_-> SrPx: videos are displayed using <video> tag
  444. # [10:32] <moo-_-> and you can drop the current frame on <canvas>
  445. # [10:32] <moo-_-> I don't know what consists of "same method" for you
  446. # [10:33] <SrPx> moo-_-: I mean, I don't know much about Flash, but I guess it is just displaying sequential images when you see a video on Flash
  447. # [10:33] <SrPx> instead of an actually encoded video format
  448. # [10:33] <SrPx> if this is true then there's no reason we couldn't do the same with canvas
  449. # [10:33] <moo-_-> ?
  450. # [10:33] <SrPx> ??
  451. # [10:34] <SrPx> what did you not understand, "?" is vague
  452. # [10:34] <moo-_-> I didn't understand "sequantial images" part
  453. # [10:34] <moo-_-> I am... that's how video forks
  454. # [10:34] <moo-_-> works even
  455. # [10:35] <moo-_-> maybe more fruitful discussion would be why are you asking this question
  456. # [10:35] <SrPx> moo-_-: I mean, you get 20 pngs, display one each 1/20 second, pew, you got a video
  457. # [10:35] <moo-_-> as it's generic knowledge that such thing can be done
  458. # [10:35] <moo-_-> and many tutorials exist
  459. # [10:35] <SrPx> moo-_-: or you can actually display a video format, that is, using video comprension stuff (I don't know well, but certainly reusing the same pixels for different frames and so on)
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  461. # [10:36] <SrPx> moo-_-: I'm asking this because I'm arguing with my friend that you can do anything you can do with flash, using html5
  462. # [10:36] <SrPx> and he pointed out the <video> tag tests on youtube sucked
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  464. # [10:36] <SrPx> so I said, that is because the video tag is experimental. but the canvas itself is just like flash, so they could just convert their algorithms to use canvas instead of flash and it would be the same
  465. # [10:37] <moo-_-> SrPx: Youtube has invested several years on building flash stuff and he expects it is converted in overnight?
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  468. # [10:37] <moo-_-> SrPx: your argument is not sensible
  469. # [10:37] <moo-_-> because <video> is for decoding
  470. # [10:37] <moo-_-> and <canvas> is for drawing stuff
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  472. # [10:37] <SrPx> moo-_-: hm I see
  473. # [10:37] <moo-_-> and unless you decode in JS then you use <video>
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  475. # [10:38] <moo-_-> SrPx: I suggest refrain from argumenting unless you know what your points are :)
  476. # [10:38] <SrPx> allright, but what is the reason
  477. # [10:38] <SrPx> (sorry for pressing enter) what is the reason we are not seeing videos being displayed with html5 yet
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  480. # [10:38] <moo-_-> SrPx: microsft?
  481. # [10:38] <moo-_-> SrPx: and videos are displayed in html5
  482. # [10:38] <moo-_-> just take your ipad
  483. # [10:39] <moo-_-> and go to xhamster.com
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  485. # [10:39] <moo-_-> there are fast moving industries and slow moving industries
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  487. # [10:39] <moo-_-> SrPx: your friend cannot claim those videos don't work
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  491. # [10:41] <SrPx> hmm
  492. # [10:41] <Trisox> http://videojs.com/
  493. # [10:41] <Trisox> hf
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  498. # [10:51] <SrPx> Trisox: this, for some reason, convinced him
  499. # [10:52] <SrPx> that "html5 can play videos"
  500. # [10:52] <SrPx> thanks
  501. # [10:52] <Trisox> yo
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  534. # [12:15] <icegamer> is this like html5 standards dev or html5 just dev irc? I have a few stupid questions, just got to html5 and new to js.
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  539. # [12:20] <icegamer> I have a function defintion inside an object method. If i call that method, will the definition be processed somehow and slow down code?
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  542. # [12:21] <jetienne> icegamer: #javascript channel is more suitable for those kind of questions
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  544. # [12:22] <icegamer> ok thanks. What is this cannel for then?'
  545. # [12:24] <jetienne> it is more about spec, not really about teaching js
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  547. # [12:24] <icegamer> figured as much but is there like html5 game dev irc out there u know about.
  548. # [12:25] <jetienne> icegamer: #bbg is about browser based game and it is quite active
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  550. # [12:26] <icegamer> ok thnx
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  552. # [12:26] <rking> If Chrome is Webkit, Firefox is Gecko, IE is ____ ?
  553. # [12:27] <nlogax> Trident..?
  554. # [12:27] <rking> Aha, that sounds right.
  555. # [12:27] <rking> Thanks. =)
  556. # [12:27] <jetienne> icegamer: and the fact i do online meeting for #bbg is unrelated :)
  557. # [12:27] <nlogax> Dunno if that's still accurate :)
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  562. # [12:30] <icegamer> do you think that reverse engineering will be a problem with html5 games. That is my biggest fear going forward with it. Really good for open source...sort of. The code seems to be all over the place and if u can do same thing million ways that will cause some issues long the way.
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  577. # [12:54] <moo-_-> icegamer: what?
  578. # [12:55] <moo-_-> you are putting reverse engineering and codebase complexity in the same sentence and I fail to see the connection
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  581. # [12:58] <icegamer> well, those two two dont go much togeater but still.
  582. # [12:58] <moo-_-> icegamer: what is the question?
  583. # [12:59] <moo-_-> icegamer: you fear that someone steals your source code?
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  585. # [13:00] <icegamer> yes, but i think that depens on what u do.
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  587. # [13:01] <moo-_-> icegamer: minified javascript decompilation is as difficult as decompilation Flash bytecode
  588. # [13:01] <icegamer> i think one day there weill be tools that can do it like drop the wepage in and get something readable out or something very close.
  589. # [13:01] <moo-_-> icegamer: it's called decompilation
  590. # [13:02] <moo-_-> tools already exist
  591. # [13:02] <moo-_-> for every programming language
  592. # [13:02] <moo-_-> icegamer: so you don't need to think you can go and test them today
  593. # [13:02] <icegamer> i know they exist, but the question is about ease of use.
  594. # [13:03] <moo-_-> icegamer: no tool can generate the symbolic info lost in compilation process
  595. # [13:03] <moo-_-> the challenge is the same regardless of programming language and the problem has been present since the early days of computer science
  596. # [13:04] <moo-_-> icegamer: so there are plenty of facts available in the matter
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  776. # [17:11] <DannysDad> Hi. I added a preexisting SVG img to my html5 page with a '<object type="image/svg+xml" data="file.svg">'. The reason for using the SVG in the 1st place is to be able to scale it. How do I do that? adding width= & height= seems to have no effect.
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  780. # [17:13] <asher^> DannysDad have you tried using the embed tag?
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  785. # [17:15] <DannysDad> asher^: hi. no, I was told that the object tag is the primary way to include an external SVG file.
  786. # [17:16] <asher^> i cant say im familiar with it, i do know the embed tag is supported though, the other option would be to draw it on a canvas i guess
  787. # [17:16] <DannysDad> and that its intended for including content that needs an external plug-in to work.
  788. # [17:16] <DannysDad> It's an external file ...
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  790. # [17:17] <asher^> does width and height just change the viewport on the svg rather than resizing it?
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  792. # [17:18] <DannysDad> asher^: It seems to. ot at least that's what I think its doing
  793. # [17:20] <asher^> http://edutechwiki.unige.ch/en/Using_SVG_with_HTML5_tutorial#Import_the_graphic_with_its_original_size_and_scale_the_image
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  805. # [17:27] <DannysDad> asher^: Thanks. TI can get the img to scale with the '<svg height="y" width="x" ...' part. What the rest of the #s do I don't know, but it's a start.
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  810. # [17:30] <hatoon> We can already use the html5 without fear today?
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  813. # [17:32] <mdelcx> hatoon: don't be scared :)
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  815. # [17:33] <mdelcx> hatoon: but seriously, you will need to evaluate if you should use certain HTML5 features for yourself, depending on your audience
  816. # [17:33] <asher^> hehe
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  819. # [17:33] <hatoon> want to know how the navigators with html5?
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  821. # [17:33] <gnu_d> Is it ok to ask about kineticsjs here ?
  822. # [17:34] * boaz|away is now known as boaz
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  824. # [17:35] <luzon19> I'm trying to achieve multiple animations in a game that I am creating using Canvas (it is a simple ping-pong game).
  825. # [17:35] <luzon19> but the problem is, when the ball hits the paddle, I want a burst of n particles at the point of contact but that doesn't came right. Even if I set the particles number to 1, they just keep coming from the point of contact and then hides automatically after some time.
  826. # [17:35] <luzon19> I have posted the question on SO, so please take a look http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11363576/multiple-setinterval-in-a-html5-canvas-game
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  828. # [17:36] <hatoon> I want books puglins of third parties such as the flash player.
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  830. # [17:37] <mdelcx> hatoon: it's extremely unclear what you are asking for. if you can clarify, im sure someone could help
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  832. # [17:38] <gnu_d> how do I rotate an image (e.g some car wheel image) in place, to simulate tire is running ?
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  834. # [17:38] <gnu_d> with Kineticjs
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  836. # [17:40] <asher^> you can do that with just css, google it
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  841. # [17:45] <luzon19> Can anyone take a look at the question?
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  847. # [17:46] <cryptopsy> paul_irish: do web browsers use file extensions to figure out what to do with files, or do they use the headers in those files?
  848. # [17:47] <cryptopsy> html, js, css, php and all typical bunch that is found on a web server
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  862. # [18:01] <mdelcx> cryptopsy: headers
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  864. # [18:02] <mdelcx> not the ones within the files (not sure what that means), but the ones sent by the webserver
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  866. # [18:02] <cryptopsy> so if index.html is now called index, mypage.com will show index.html? i remember a time when this wasn't the case
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  868. # [18:03] <mdelcx> cryptopsy: that's 100% up to your server configuration
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  870. # [18:04] <mdelcx> apache, for example, with mod_rewrite can "assume" the html extension for you if configured that way
  871. # [18:05] <mdelcx> i suppose it would be possible for the browser to append the extension it infers based on the headers
  872. # [18:06] <mdelcx> im not sure if any browsers do that, it would seem silly IMO
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  874. # [18:06] <mdelcx> it would break many applications
  875. # [18:08] <cryptopsy> why would it break applications?
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  877. # [18:09] <mdelcx> think about it - if I have an application that is not serving "files" but instead serving content based on routing
  878. # [18:09] <mdelcx> if I have a route for /index that would not necessarily work if I appended .html
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  880. # [18:10] <cryptopsy> if the browser can identify file type by header it doesn't matter what the server serves it as
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  882. # [18:11] <mdelcx> again, you need to consider what happens when index.html is NOT a file
  883. # [18:11] <mdelcx> but a route
  884. # [18:11] <cryptopsy> what happens exactly?
  885. # [18:11] <mdelcx> 404 !
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  889. # [18:11] <mdelcx> if my app serves html from the route /this_is_the_index
  890. # [18:12] <mdelcx> then there is no garuntee it will ALSO work at /this_is_the_index.html
  891. # [18:12] <mdelcx> again, some frameworks might allow that to work, but thats a bonus
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  893. # [18:13] <cryptopsy> where can i read more about this and routes?
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  895. # [18:13] <mdelcx> "routing" is a concept that is common among web frameworks. for a simple introduction, look at how Sinatra works
  896. # [18:14] <mdelcx> or Express for node.js
  897. # [18:15] <mdelcx> what you are describing about file extensions makes sense when you are talking about serving files
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  899. # [18:15] <mdelcx> but it is really common for a web application to not serve static files for many requests
  900. # [18:16] <cryptopsy> so ... it's still the server's problem
  901. # [18:16] <cryptopsy> and there can be a route for index.html to index
  902. # [18:16] <cryptopsy> yes?
  903. # [18:17] <mdelcx> yes the server (depending on the software, definitely possible with Apache) can handle rewriting paths for static files
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  905. # [18:17] <mdelcx> also possible for sure with nginx, probablly most others
  906. # [18:17] <cryptopsy> alright so that solves the matter for sending requests
  907. # [18:18] <cryptopsy> and for receiving the browser will know what to do witha file by it's header
  908. # [18:18] <mdelcx> it will know what to do with THE DATA IT RECEIVES based on the http header
  909. # [18:19] <mdelcx> don't think in terms of "files"
  910. # [18:19] <cryptopsy> obviously
  911. # [18:19] <mdelcx> perhaps not so :)
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  918. # [18:22] <cryptopsy> it's obvious because the data it receives can only be the same as itself
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  981. # [19:50] <mattsi> I am using requestAnimFrame for a canvas animation and getting 60fps in chrome, but only 1fps in firefox. What could be the problem?
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  983. # [19:52] <mattsi> here's the code: http://cssdeck.com/item/preview/591/particles-explosion-with-html5-canvas
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  988. # [19:55] <mattsi> can't anyone atleast take a look at the code?
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  1003. # [20:06] <Jon47> my guess would be poor implementation in firefox…..
  1004. # [20:07] <asher^> wow that is horrible in ff
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  1006. # [20:11] <Armen> looks fine for me on firefox/opera/chrome
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  1008. # [20:12] <Armen> ff 13.0.1
  1009. # [20:12] <Armen> oh he left.
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  1121. # [23:13] <David_Bradbury> applicationCache has the most useless error information I've ever seen in an API =/
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  1160. # Session Close: Sat Jul 07 00:00:00 2012

The end :)