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- # Session Start: Sun Jul 08 00:00:00 2012
- # Session Ident: #html5
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- # [01:52] <thefirstdude> hi
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- # [02:34] <thefirstdude> soo i want a semi transparent dynamic path
- # [02:35] <thefirstdude> i tried drawing with destination over and then source over on canvase
- # [02:35] <thefirstdude> \but it doesnt work
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- # [04:02] <scar> any idea what the "proper" way to display a flash object on a website is that gets passed throuhg w3c?
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- # [04:22] <miketaylr> scar: this might help you, http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashembedcagematch/
- # [04:22] <miketaylr> not sure what you mean by "gets passed through w3c" though
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- # [04:50] <trave> anyone in here happen to use the iconic font-family, or any font based icon set? im just diving into it, but its injecting a box character before the glyph.
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- # [15:36] <nullucas> I don't know where to ask this question: when you submit a form (either GET or POST), the browser is always redirected to the "action" location of the form. Is this avoidable or is it (as I suspect) part of a security model that browsers must comply with?
- # [15:36] <asher^> you can avoid it
- # [15:36] <asher^> with javascript
- # [15:40] <nullucas> hmm. That would allow me to get or post data in other domains, and the user would not notice it (submit with and avoid any redirection with javascript). I thought that was not possible
- # [15:41] <asher^> how would you do that?
- # [15:43] <nullucas> maybe the question wasn't clear. I meant... is it possible to SUBMIT a form (and you could do it with js/jquery submit()), and at the same time avoid redirection to the action location, say otherdomain/page.php?
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- # [15:44] <nullucas> I "think" it is not possible, but I haven't found a definite answer online
- # [15:44] <asher^> yes, you can effectively do that
- # [15:45] <asher^> you can send the data with ajax without going to the other page
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- # [15:46] <nullucas> hmm. Ajax doesn't allow exchanging data with different domains (unless you have permission with some headers, I don't know, whatever). But in general, I know you can't
- # [15:47] <asher^> what are you trying to achieve exactly?
- # [15:48] <nullucas> making a user visit a page that posts data to another website (where he's currently logged in) without him noticing it. Uh, I guess it's cross site request forgery
- # [15:49] <Velmont> nullucas: Ajax DOES allow exchanging data with different domains, -- they allow the POST through, you're not allowed to read back though.
- # [15:50] <Velmont> nullucas: That's sadly because of legacy... Shouldn't really be like that.
- # [15:50] <nullucas> that's why I think you can't. For security reasons. But I haven't found an explicit explanation online. Everybody mentions the security of XMLHttpRequest, but not about form redirection
- # [15:50] <nullucas> hmm... I'll look into it...
- # [15:50] <Velmont> nullucas: You can you can.
- # [15:50] <Velmont> nullucas: CORS allows you to POST to random domains...
- # [15:51] <Velmont> nullucas: You can't read back the page it answered with, -- but the POST will go through as long as you only use simple headers.
- # [15:51] <Velmont> nullucas: It's that bad...
- # [15:51] <Velmont> nullucas: I've written many CORS tests for w3c. :-)
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- # [15:52] <nullucas> I heard about that "cors". But for that, you need to configure it on the server (that is, you need access to the server). If you have access to the server, it's likely to be yours, so that's ok for security
- # [15:52] <Velmont> nullucas: Yea, but for simple requests, the request goes through.
- # [15:52] <Velmont> nullucas: Which is what you want.
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- # [15:53] <nullucas> eh, I really didn't know that. I guess I need to try it. Thank you :)
- # [15:53] <Velmont> nullucas: Normally we should've sent a preflight request first. To ask: "Is it okay if I POST here?"
- # [15:53] <tomlane> Velmont, woo security!
- # [15:53] <Velmont> nullucas: But due to the stupid form legacy, CORS actually allows you to send POST to any random domain.
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- # [15:54] <Velmont> nullucas: So as long as the web browser implement CORS (which all do, latest Opera, Firefox and Chrome, -- and next IE (IE10) has it), you can XHR POST to any site you want...
- # [15:55] <Velmont> nullucas: Although that was already possible using form actions anyway, so it's not more open than it was now. It's just a bit more convenient.
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- # [15:57] <nullucas> Wait. With ajax, I tried to post stuff to another domain, and of course the browser refused to do it because the domain was different from the one I was at. With forms though, I can do that BUT... I always get redirected to the page I'm sending data
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- # [15:58] <nullucas> so what I suspect is that that redirection is needed for security reasons (so the user is aware there's something weird going on). But as I said, I haven't found this mentioned explicitely online. So I asked here
- # [15:58] <Velmont> nullucas: What browser is this?
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- # [16:01] <Velmont> I need a place to post, hmm.
- # [16:02] <nullucas> it's chromium (chrome), but that's normal behavior as far as I know
- # [16:02] <Velmont> nullucas: I'm writing you a test.
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- # [16:06] <nullucas> oh, thanks...
- # [16:07] <nullucas> I've already done several tests... and I don't think it'll work :P But I'm curious
- # [16:07] <Velmont> I need to set up lots of stuff since I'm not at work and don't have my usual test setup with different domains and stuff :P
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- # [16:11] <nullucas> ok thanks, it doesn't matter. Thanks anyway
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- # [16:36] <asher^> anyone aware of any particularly good introduction videos for indexeddb?
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- # [16:45] <Velmont> nullucas: So I whipped something up for you anyway; http://test.s0.no/cors/do_post_cross.htm
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- # [16:45] <Velmont> nullucas: It's doing XHR to crossorigin.test.s0.no but it could be whatever other domain. -- You can go to blabla.test.s0.no for added points.
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- # [16:46] <nullucas> hey, thank you so much :) I'm trying it
- # [16:46] <Velmont> asher^: Would be cool to make... Never done any intro videos though.
- # [16:47] <asher^> youtube doesnt seem to come up with much. i usually find videos the best way to take a first step into something
- # [16:47] <Velmont> asher^: Yea. I just read the w3c spec.
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- # [16:48] <nullucas> on submit, however, I get redirected to crossdomain2.test... etc
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- # [16:48] <Velmont> nullucas: I'm not.
- # [16:49] <nullucas> hmm... but did you include jquery in that page? I see the code, but not a link to it in the header
- # [16:49] <Velmont> Was only testing in Opera, but now did it in chromium; it doesn't go any way.
- # [16:49] <Velmont> nullucas: jquery? No, only real, bare DOM.
- # [16:50] <Velmont> nullucas: I like to keep things lean, so I just code without a framework. And if I need one, I just do it myself, like this: $ = document.querySelectorAll
- # [16:50] <Velmont> :P
- # [16:50] <nullucas> oh yeah, sorry, lol. I'm obsessed with jquery, I see jquery everywhere, even where there's none
- # [16:52] <nullucas> anyway, you can do that on your domains because you set up CORS. But you wouldn't be able to post stuff to, say, facebook.com
- # [16:52] <Velmont> nullucas: Nope, no CORS there, check the headers.
- # [16:52] <Velmont> nullucas: I can do it whereever there is no CSRF checks.
- # [16:52] <Velmont> nullucas: I can do it to your site if you put the poster.php there.
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- # [16:53] <Velmont> ( http://test.s0.no/cors/poster.phps )
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- # [16:55] <nullucas> hmm, wait, I need to run! Checking out the tour de france, LOL. I'll be back later. Thank you anyway!
- # [16:55] <nullucas> be back in half an hour
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- # [17:28] <nullucas> i'll try that with firefox to see if I still get redirected
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- # [17:33] <nullucas> oops, sorry, I'm stupid. I had javascript blocked with an extension in chromium, I forgot to allow it. Well, I tried, and it seems you are right! I can't believe it
- # [17:34] <nullucas> I get an error in the browser console (the usual "not allowed by Access-Control-Allow-Origin"), but the data is posted anyway!
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- # [17:50] <PsYxOpAt> guys, when i have an <img> tag somwehre in the code how should I write the width and height? width="50px" height="50px" or style="width: 50px; height: 50px"> and should I include only the alt="" attribute or I must include the title as well?
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- # [17:54] <nullucas> that's a good question PsYxOpAt
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- # [17:55] <nullucas> I'm not an expert, but I think the alt attribute is required if you want your code to validate
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- # [17:59] <nullucas> I just tried at http://validator.w3.org/ ...if I write an image without the alt attribute, I get an error: required attribute "ALT" not specified
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- # [18:04] <nullucas> as for the title attribute, I really don't think it's needed at all
- # [18:04] <Workoh> hello
- # [18:04] <nullucas> and about the width and height, that's something I'm interested in too
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- # [18:07] <nullucas> I heard that you should always specify the height and width attributes, because if you have images that load slowly or don't load at all, you'll break the layout or it'll "jump" until everything is loaded on the page
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- # [18:09] <nullucas> but I'm not sure if you need to put the width and height in the tag as attributes to avoid those problems, or if you can just put it in the css code (style)
- # [18:10] <Workoh> Curiously, CSS is backwards compatible right?
- # [18:11] <Workoh> (CSS3 + CSS in same stylesheet) Am curious if it will cause confusion, have not stumbled across an answer
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- # [18:12] <PsYxOpAt> nullucas: the alt attr is a must in every img tag and the width and height must be specified like you said but which is the correct way? :/
- # [18:12] <PsYxOpAt> i'm using this new validator http://validator.keegan.st/
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- # [18:16] <Workoh> Asked question in wrong channel. Oops. But I do have one for you guys... Some tutorials say to close out tags with a /> and others don't. ideas?
- # [18:17] <nullucas> PsYxOpAt, there's also the question: should width and height of an image be considered "presentation" (CSS) or "semantics" (HTML code)? I read a good answer at stackoverflow saying that it is semantics... but I'm still not 100% convinced
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- # [18:18] <Pomax> Workoh: it depends on the tag.
- # [18:19] <Pomax> tags that don't get content do not need />, just >
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- # [18:19] <Pomax> such as img, br, hr
- # [18:19] <Pomax> tags that can have content must be closed with />
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- # [18:20] <nullucas> uh. The examples in the HTML5 specification are just closed with >
- # [18:20] <PsYxOpAt> i use /> in html5 and still validates
- # [18:20] <nullucas> I think I heard closing it with /> was accepted, optional, but not required.
- # [18:21] <Workoh> When I validate, some conflict
- # [18:21] <asher^> i thought that the /> came from the xhtml spec, its not required in html5 but its allowed for backwards compatibility
- # [18:21] <Pomax> no.
- # [18:21] <Pomax> there are actual rules for when to use /> and when to use >
- # [18:21] <Pomax> > is used for void elements, /> for everything else.
- # [18:21] <asher^> interesting, have a link?
- # [18:21] <Workoh> META and <link rel/type, should I />?
- # [18:21] <PsYxOpAt> can u explain them to us, please :)
- # [18:22] <Pomax> I just did
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- # [18:22] <Pomax> elements that have no content, ie you cannot stick things between and "opening" and "closing" tag, use >
- # [18:22] <Pomax> such as <img src=...>, <hr>, <br> etc
- # [18:23] <Pomax> elements that CAN have content between an opening and closing tag must be closed with /> if there is not content provided
- # [18:23] <PsYxOpAt> like input?
- # [18:23] <asher^> what if you dont provide the (optional) closing tag?
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- # [18:24] <Pomax> the full list of elements that get > is: area, base, br, col, command, embed, hr, img, input, keygen, link, meta, param, source, track, wbr
- # [18:24] <Pomax> if you use /> for these, that's a spec error and will fail html5 validation.
- # [18:24] <Workoh> Pomax, you just saved me a lot of time, thank-you.
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- # [18:25] <Pomax> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/syntax.html#syntax-elements
- # [18:27] <asher^> that seems to say the opposite of what you said
- # [18:27] <PsYxOpAt> well i already used /> in some of them and it's validates
- # [18:27] <asher^> start tags: OOptionally, a "/" character, which may be present only if the element is a void element.
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- # [18:28] <asher^> its just backwards compatibility with xhtml
- # [18:28] <asher^> i wouldnt include them personally
- # [18:29] <Pomax> indeed. I seem to have missed the "optionally" part until today
- # [18:29] <Workoh> http://validator.w3.org/ or http://html5.validator.nu .. opinions?
- # [18:29] <asher^> lots of stuff is now optional
- # [18:29] <nullucas> I don't think the right word is "backward". I think they made it optional to use /> because a lot of people just don't get the difference and never will, lol
- # [18:30] <asher^> Workoh i see the latter referenced more often, but im guessing both are ok
- # [18:30] <asher^> nullucas ive heard that one of the main things they wanted in html5 was for previously ok things to still be ok, they didnt want to break stuff unnecessarily
- # [18:30] <nullucas> that /> thing is for xhtml, which is supposed to be something different (more strict) than html
- # [18:30] <asher^> yes
- # [18:31] <Workoh> Ditto and thanks, asher
- # [18:31] <asher^> np
- # [18:31] <asher^> i was surprised to learn the other day how much stuff is actually optional in html5, like html, head, body tags, closing tags for a lot of things, quotation marks etc
- # [18:32] <Workoh> Asher, I just found that out yesterday myself watching a PHP tutorial
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- # [18:32] <asher^> hehe
- # [18:33] <Workoh> 12 years of closing tags will not stop.
- # [18:33] <moo-_-> asher^: I like quotation marks optional
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- # [18:33] <moo-_-> but many syntax colorers can't handle it yet
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- # [18:33] <asher^> im going to stop using some of them, like </li> i think
- # [18:33] <Workoh> There is something I did not know, I've seen it but never looked it up.
- # [18:33] <asher^> as long as your stuff is formatted well some tags dont add much
- # [18:34] <asher^> i cant see myself dropping </p> tags any time soon though
- # [18:34] <Workoh> OCD when it comes to formatting.
- # [18:34] <Workoh> </p> is optional ..?
- # [18:34] <asher^> yeah
- # [18:34] <Workoh> I'm going to have to write some notes :)
- # [18:35] <asher^> many of them are optional only under certain circumstances though
- # [18:35] <asher^> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/syntax.html#optional-tags
- # [18:35] <asher^> most of them make sense
- # [18:35] <Workoh> Out of ink and monitors
- # [18:35] <Workoh> ;)
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- # [18:36] <Workoh> Anyone here use SeaMonkey?
- # [18:36] <asher^> afk
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- # [19:24] <Workoh> Anyone use AddThis?
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- # [20:23] <Velmont> 17:26 < nullucas> I get an error in the browser console (the usual "not allowed by Access-Control-Allow-Origin"), but the data is posted anyway!
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- # [20:23] <Velmont> --> Yeah, you're not allowed to read back the data. But the request has gone through...
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- # [20:38] <moo-_-> Velmont: that's how it works
- # [20:38] <moo-_-> it's doing only client-side check naturally
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- # [20:38] <moo-_-> it is up to server to decide whether it accepts the requet or not
- # [20:39] <moo-_-> Velmont: if you want to full access control check use HTTP POST and preflight requests
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- # [20:41] <Velmont> moo-_-: Yes, I know, I was explaining to nullucas :-) I made him a demo because he wouldn't believe me. I've written a CORS testsuite, so I believe I have a pretty good idea over how it works ;-)
- # [20:41] <moo-_-> Velmont: aha
- # [20:41] <moo-_-> my backlog is small :<
- # [20:42] <Velmont> moo-_-: Ofc, that POST is a simple request trips up quite a few people. Many refuse to believe it.
- # [20:42] <Velmont> But it is that way because of legacy forms.
- # [20:42] <Velmont> So couldn't close that hole because of backwards compat anyway.
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- # [20:43] <moo-_-> :#
- # [20:43] <moo-_-> legacy
- # [20:43] <Velmont> Well, or a better word. :P
- # [20:44] <Velmont> "Because of how it was already"
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- # [22:34] <mightym> hey guys, someone experience using canvas on retina displays?
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- # Session Close: Mon Jul 09 00:00:00 2012
The end :)