/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-11-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  38. # [00:48] <ericelliott> I noticed that chrome provides location.origin -- handy shorthand for location.protocol + location.host + location.port -- but it's not part of the standard spec. );
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  79. # [02:12] <grantgalitz> shh no tears, only html5 dreams
  80. # [02:13] <grantgalitz> http://i.imgur.com/dXWuM.gif
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  101. # [02:50] <sunbeam> assiging the li right after the li.controls (this is always the first li in the ul) a class '.state-open' ?
  102. # [02:50] <sunbeam> any idea how i can best do this
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  129. # [03:51] <daveace> wtf, i have two canvas',and doing something on one canvas affects the other
  130. # [03:51] <daveace> any idea why it's doing this?
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  246. # [08:21] <Administrator_> hello
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  248. # [08:22] <Administrator_> I am using source=new EventSource, but its not realtime it delays 3 seconds
  249. # [08:22] <Administrator_> Can I make it realtime ?
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  251. # [08:23] <Administrator_> in serverside I want to put "retry: 10000\n"; and yet want push in realtime or every 10 sec .. is it possible ?
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  254. # [08:26] <Administrator_> anyone please ?
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  350. # [11:01] <mokush> any idea why I'm getting a "typeerror: cannot call method 'expect' of null", when trying to run some jasmine tests? everything is inside it() blocks, so that shouldn't be the issue
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  369. # [11:26] <jaydev> hello
  370. # [11:26] <jaydev> anyone is there?
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  408. # [12:18] <Moo^_^> mokush: I suggest you ask on jasmine specific forum, this is HTML5 channel
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  412. # [12:26] <xabierastigarrag> hi everyone
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  428. # [13:11] <_biff> hi
  429. # [13:12] <_biff> does anybody use html5 builder?
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  577. # [16:54] <draginx> Anyone know how to calculate the height of a text element (in SVG) *after* a rotation of 45 degrees?
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  599. # [17:28] <g105b> draginx: you'll have to use trig
  600. # [17:28] <draginx> oh great my best subject :P
  601. # [17:28] <g105b> heh
  602. # [17:28] <draginx> thx
  603. # [17:28] <g105b> you know the angle and hypotenuse, you just need to calculate the opposite side length
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  643. # [18:23] <sunbeam> say i have a ul li a structure (with depth: 1 sub navigation inside the top level li)
  644. # [18:23] <sunbeam> and certain ul > li has a class .opened
  645. # [18:23] <sunbeam> when an icon outside this is clicked, I want to go to the next ul > li and give it the class .opened
  646. # [18:24] <sunbeam> any idea how I can best do this?
  647. # [18:24] <Yarx> if you want to change the class when the element is clicked on you'll have to use JS
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  653. # [18:34] <amado> jquery('ul > li:not(.opened)').click(function (){ $(this).next().addClass('opened'); }); ?
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  663. # [18:48] <Yarx> that will only register the event for LI's that don't have the opened class when the page renders. it's better to apply it to all of them and then instead of explicitly adding the opened class, toggle it.
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  741. # [20:48] <Davstern15> I'm trying to use this "node-webkit" thing which is a crappy name for something that takes JavaScript and a HTML 5 file and any resources and bundles a game or whatever inside a distributable EXE that runs it as if it were a native app.
  742. # [20:48] <Davstern15> However, since Flash is required to do anything real related to audio in HTML 5 still (and for the foreseeable future), I can't figure out how (if possible at all) to run that through this thing. Can you?
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  745. # [20:56] <David_Bradbury> If you're using a webkit wrapper you should be able to use audio just fine
  746. # [20:56] <bot-t> (22 hours 20 mins ago) <estellevw> tell David_Bradbury: when you start a phrase with "Not trying to be rude" inevitably, you come off not only being rude, which you did. Answers like yours, which don't lead to a solution but make people fear asking questions, makes this chat room an unwelcoming place. The actual solution was at http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/file/39325f2d56b9/content/html/content/src/nsHTMLInputElement.cpp#l4009 that the s
  747. # [20:57] <David_Bradbury> How silly
  748. # [20:57] <Davstern15> David_Bradbury: No... because it doesn't matter which implementation since the *specification* lacks all the necessary stuff.
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  750. # [20:57] <Davstern15> Like panning, multiple voices, etc.
  751. # [20:58] <Davstern15> Or any kind of reliability.
  752. # [20:58] <David_Bradbury> Gotcha. Don't know if it is possible.
  753. # [20:59] <Davstern15> And seriously, I don't know what kind of nutjob ever designed an audio API without considering those.
  754. # [21:00] <Davstern15> It really can be considered the absolute basics IMO.
  755. # [21:00] <Davstern15> I also tried App.js which is the same thing, but it performs much worse than "node-webkit", so I don't even consider it.
  756. # [21:01] <Davstern15> I wish there were some kind of big and reliable project for this.
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  759. # [21:05] <David_Bradbury> bot-t tell estellevw Okay, I'll rephrase. I don't believe I am coming off as rude to tell someone to Google something before they ask here. What you linked is not an answer to the question, but a implementation of the schema. An implementation does not define what is correct.
  760. # [21:06] <David_Bradbury> bot-t: tell estellevw: Okay, I'll rephrase. I don't believe I am coming off as rude to tell someone to Google something before they ask here. What you linked is not an answer to the question, but a implementation of the schema. An implementation does not define what is correct.
  761. # [21:06] <bot-t> David_Bradbury, Okay.
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  773. # [21:23] <Davstern15> Life is way too hard.
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  778. # [21:31] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: are you claiming Web Audio speficiation lacks panning and multiple voices?
  779. # [21:31] <Moo^_^> that's utterly false
  780. # [21:31] <Moo^_^> http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/webaudio/intro/
  781. # [21:32] <Moo^_^> the api was designed games as the primary target
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  786. # [21:53] <Davstern15> Moo^_^: Well, it was the last time I looked.
  787. # [21:53] <Davstern15> Which was recently.
  788. # [21:53] <Davstern15> And in either case, no browser supports it.
  789. # [21:53] <Davstern15> And if they do, they are not all major browsers.
  790. # [21:53] <Davstern15> Which means at the very least IE, Chrome and Firefox. And Safari.
  791. # [21:54] <Davstern15> Moo^_^: http://caniuse.com/#feat=audio-api
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  796. # [21:59] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: Firefox Web Audio API is in progress
  797. # [21:59] <Moo^_^> so IE is the only major browser supporting it
  798. # [21:59] <Davstern15> Huh?
  799. # [21:59] <Moo^_^> but if you are developing HTML5 games you should forget IE in the first place
  800. # [21:59] <Davstern15> IE doesn't support it.
  801. # [21:59] <Moo^_^> +not
  802. # [21:59] <Davstern15> What are you talking about? Firefox does not support it yet.
  803. # [22:00] <Davstern15> And forget IE? Are you crazy?
  804. # [22:00] <Moo^_^> no
  805. # [22:00] <Davstern15> IE is the one browser that draws to Canvas properly.
  806. # [22:00] <Moo^_^> I am not crazy :)
  807. # [22:00] <Davstern15> Proper hardware acceleration.
  808. # [22:00] <Davstern15> Firefox is unbearably slow in that regard.
  809. # [22:00] * Quits: Andre_designer (~Thunderbi@82-170-146-165.ip.telfort.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  810. # [22:02] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: Davstern15: https://www.scirra.com/blog/103/ie10-review-still-disappointing-for-html5-games
  811. # [22:02] <Moo^_^> ops
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  815. # [22:02] <Moo^_^> but yes
  816. # [22:02] <Moo^_^> HTML5 games might not be Microsoft's cup of tea
  817. # [22:03] <Davstern15> I don't know what they are talking about. IE 9 and 10 are lightyears ahead of both Chrome and Firefox in Canvas drawing speed.
  818. # [22:03] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: I suggest you read the article
  819. # [22:03] <tw2113> ooh 1 area
  820. # [22:03] <Davstern15> I don't need to read the article since I have experienced this over and over myself.
  821. # [22:03] <tw2113> now to fix the rest of them
  822. # [22:03] <Davstern15> But I will anyway.
  823. # [22:03] * Parts: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) ("yar! I be gone exited!")
  824. # [22:04] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: scirra are game developers after all
  825. # [22:04] <Moo^_^> I assume they know their stuff
  826. # [22:06] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: also Web Audio API is in progress for FF
  827. # [22:06] <Moo^_^> I can dig you the bug report where you can follow its status
  828. # [22:07] <Davstern15> So? It's not *finished*, and IE doesn't have it.
  829. # [22:07] <Davstern15> And IE is still a major browser, whether you or others like it.
  830. # [22:07] * Quits: pandeiro (~mu@177.33.182.136) (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2)
  831. # [22:07] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: yes, it is true
  832. # [22:07] <Davstern15> Not quite 99% marketshare anymore, but still a huge player.
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  834. # [22:08] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: but if you need to release your game today, just do it on flash? if you need this *finished* stuff right now.
  835. # [22:08] <Moo^_^> some game developers are perfecly happy with HTML5 already, but if it's not something you can do, then skip it
  836. # [22:09] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: also, FF has fast release cycle so we'll see web audio in 3*6 weeks from today, I guess
  837. # [22:09] <Davstern15> "just do it on flash"
  838. # [22:09] <Davstern15> ...
  839. # [22:09] <Davstern15> I don't know where to begin.
  840. # [22:09] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: looks like you are unsatisfied
  841. # [22:09] <Davstern15> But I will tell you that I *am* using Flash for the audio since it's necessary.
  842. # [22:10] <Davstern15> Through a sound library.
  843. # [22:10] <Davstern15> Nobody would be happier to do "pure" HTML 5, but it's not realistic.
  844. # [22:10] <Davstern15> Because there just isn't support.
  845. # [22:10] <Davstern15> Firefox gets it... so what? There's still IE.
  846. # [22:11] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: think it about this way
  847. # [22:11] <Davstern15> And then's the question about how well the implementations implement these things.
  848. # [22:11] <Moo^_^> iOS 6 covers many popular mobile devices, Chrome App Store + Chrome is attracting a lot of developers, for PC/IE only you can bundle it was wrapped or make users install Google Chrome Frame
  849. # [22:11] <Davstern15> I mean, they get SVG all wrong compared to each other.
  850. # [22:11] <Moo^_^> and the situation is improving
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  852. # [22:12] <Ms2ger> Davstern15, there's one way to make sure that implementations get stuff like this right... Write tests :)
  853. # [22:12] <Moo^_^> the problem is not actually with Web Audio, but Microsof's lack to keep up with the other HTML5 browsers
  854. # [22:12] <Davstern15> "bundle it was wrapped"?
  855. # [22:12] <Davstern15> Ms2ger: That only tests them...
  856. # [22:12] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: take Chrome's rendering engine and make .exe out of it?
  857. # [22:12] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: or if you cannot do that, just make IE users to install Google Chrome Frame?
  858. # [22:12] <Davstern15> That's exactly what I joined the channel to ask about.
  859. # [22:12] <Davstern15> I can't get "node-webkit" to work with Flash.
  860. # [22:12] <Ms2ger> Davstern15, and we do look at conformance tests, I can tell you that :)
  861. # [22:13] <Davstern15> And in either case, the "download and run EXE" defeats the whole purpose of this anyway.
  862. # [22:13] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: then use Google Chrome Frame?
  863. # [22:13] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: we cannot fix Microsoft, you know
  864. # [22:13] <Davstern15> Ms2ger: Are you a developer of some browser?
  865. # [22:13] <Ms2ger> I work on Mozilla
  866. # [22:13] <Davstern15> What is Google Chrome Frame?
  867. # [22:13] <Davstern15> Ms2ger: Maybe you can provide insight into why the Firefox Canvas (2D) rendering is so slow.
  868. # [22:13] <Moo^_^> it is single click, non-admin, plugin which turns IE to use Chrome rendering engine when pages asks for it
  869. # [22:14] <Moo^_^> http://www.chromium.org/developers/how-tos/chrome-frame-getting-started/chrome-frame-faq
  870. # [22:14] <Ms2ger> Davstern15, not my cup of tea, really, but I do know that smart people will investigate if you have a test case :)
  871. # [22:14] <Davstern15> Moo^_^: Asking people to download and install some scary plug-in is, to the user, terrible.
  872. # [22:14] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: oh, trust me on this one
  873. # [22:14] <Moo^_^> IE users download and click anything
  874. # [22:15] <Ms2ger> Hah
  875. # [22:15] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: it is not nice, but it is required as long as IE/Microsoft does what they are doing
  876. # [22:15] <Davstern15> How can it possibly install without "admin" privileges?
  877. # [22:15] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: it is open source, I am not windows expert, but I suggest you try it out
  878. # [22:15] <Davstern15> Does that thing also enable WebGL in IE?
  879. # [22:15] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: http://www.chromium.org/developers/how-tos/chrome-frame-getting-started/chrome-frame-faq#TOC-Do-I-need-to-be-an-Administrator-to-install-Google-Chrome-Frame-
  880. # [22:15] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: yes
  881. # [22:16] <Davstern15> Because Microsoft has stated that WebGL is insecure, and while it may be a nonsense excuse, they may be right too.
  882. # [22:16] * Quits: jamesflorentino (~james@121.54.44.230) (Quit: jamesflorentino)
  883. # [22:16] <Davstern15> They won't accept WebGL because it's opening up serious security holes or something.
  884. # [22:16] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: their silverlight has the same insecurity, so their arguments are not really conveniencing
  885. # [22:17] <Davstern15> Silverlight is dead to them AFAIK.
  886. # [22:17] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: but the argument holds water
  887. # [22:17] <Moo^_^> it provides more attack surface
  888. # [22:17] <Moo^_^> but I'd still say it is far less potential threat than ,let's say, Adobe Reader
  889. # [22:17] <Ms2ger> That's true for any new feature, really
  890. # [22:18] <Ms2ger> Though I guess WebGL is somewhat worse than most
  891. # [22:18] <Moo^_^> it's mainly because of crappy display drivers which is something the card manufacturers must fix themselves
  892. # [22:18] <Moo^_^> it is true for any 3d acceleration
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  895. # [22:19] <Davstern15> I frankly don't get why it necessarily must be a security issue.
  896. # [22:20] <Davstern15> Why can't the browsers just ***** accelerate the drawing to 2D Canvases?
  897. # [22:20] <Davstern15> I mean, IE does it.
  898. # [22:20] <Davstern15> Firefox and Chrome and Opera could too. No idea about Safari.
  899. # [22:20] <Davstern15> Safari is no longer offered to lowly Windows users such as myself.
  900. # [22:20] <Davstern15> And I cannot afford a Mac.
  901. # [22:20] <Davstern15> I count Safari as "probably the fourth largest"
  902. # [22:21] <Davstern15> IE, Chrome, Firefox and Safari in that order.
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  904. # [22:23] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: I think FF18 will see progress regarding that http://news.softpedia.com/news/Firefox-18-Uses-Azure-Canvas-by-Default-for-Faster-Graphics-299351.shtml
  905. # [22:24] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: so "keep calm and carry on".
  906. # [22:25] <Davstern15> Good news... but...
  907. # [22:25] <Moo^_^> HTML5 is getting better, even though it could not be in your sweet spot yet :)
  908. # [22:25] <Davstern15> "Mozilla has been working on Azure for quite a while now, since Firefox 4 hit, but it is only now ready to take over from the older Thebes API."
  909. # [22:25] <Davstern15> That is a long time.
  910. # [22:25] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: they probably need to rewrite the whole graphics backend and that's a lot of code
  911. # [22:25] <Davstern15> It's so painfully behind Flash, which makes me crazy. I mean, this audio crap should be the absolute #1 priority for a long while now.
  912. # [22:25] * Quits: mchammer (~mchammer@31-18-141-177-dynip.superkabel.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  913. # [22:26] <Ms2ger> We've unfortunately got a lot of absolute #1 priorities :)
  914. # [22:26] <Davstern15> Whatever I need is always #1 for everyone.
  915. # [22:26] <Davstern15> Or that's how it should be.
  916. # [22:27] <Ms2ger> :D
  917. # [22:27] * Moo^_^ gives Davstern15 a beer
  918. # [22:27] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: in any case, do you have the game released anywhere?
  919. # [22:27] <Moo^_^> like... for trying it out
  920. # [22:27] <Davstern15> Suspicious taste... and coming from a moo-cow...
  921. # [22:27] <Davstern15> Yes, I do, but can't link to it.
  922. # [22:27] <Davstern15> Which is quite annoying to me.
  923. # [22:28] <Davstern15> Since the #1 problem once a game is done is to get the word out and it's veeeeeeeeeeery difficult.
  924. # [22:28] <Davstern15> Even more difficult than all the browser bugs put together.
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  926. # [22:29] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: there is a HTML5 specific game developer channel
  927. # [22:29] <Moo^_^> I don't recall its name
  928. # [22:29] <Moo^_^> but a lot of folk are there and here
  929. # [22:29] <Moo^_^> maybe you can ask for thips
  930. # [22:29] <Moo^_^> tips
  931. # [22:30] <Davstern15> Hmm...
  932. # [22:30] <Davstern15> Tons of quiet users in here.
  933. # [22:30] * Joins: ampz (~laptop@host86-179-226-179.range86-179.btcentralplus.com)
  934. # [22:30] <Moo^_^> it's US daytime
  935. # [22:30] <Moo^_^> and it's thanksgiving there
  936. # [22:30] <Moo^_^> probably everyone stuffing themselves full of this funny looking bird
  937. # [22:31] <Davstern15> I often hear such explanations, but they don't work too well because it's always like this.
  938. # [22:31] <Davstern15> Much like a peer-to-peer chat with a random person or maybe a couple.
  939. # [22:31] <Davstern15> In spite of hundreds of lurkers.
  940. # [22:32] <Moo^_^> or maybe don't have anything say as they are afraid of some random guy coming in his mouth full of foam and waving Flash around ;)
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  942. # [22:32] <Davstern15> :|
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  944. # [22:32] <Davstern15> Summary: I have been able to build an EXE with my game inside with "node-webkit" (I hate that title), but it doesn't get access to Flash in spite of me having it installed.
  945. # [22:33] <Davstern15> And that EXE is already 39 MB...
  946. # [22:33] <Moo^_^> Davstern15: did you find any node-webkit specific forum?
  947. # [22:33] <Davstern15> Which is very bloated...
  948. # [22:33] <Davstern15> Nope.
  949. # [22:33] <Davstern15> Except their GIT thing...
  950. # [22:33] <Moo^_^> github?
  951. # [22:33] <Davstern15> Yes...
  952. # [22:33] <Davstern15> And it requires some kind of account which makes me tired.
  953. # [22:33] <Moo^_^> just create an issue there if they don't offer any other contact methods
  954. # [22:34] <Moo^_^> github is pretty big nowadays, so you'll keep hitting it again and again
  955. # [22:34] <Davstern15> I wish the project were bigger.
  956. # [22:34] <Davstern15> Apps.js (or was it App.js?) is almost identical but has much worse performance, so I ruled out that one.
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  958. # [22:35] <Davstern15> I am also trying to figure out how I can make it harder to reverse engineer/take apart.
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  961. # [22:37] <Moo^_^> Rovia and Angry Birds are satisfied with Google Closure
  962. # [22:37] <Moo^_^> Rovio even
  963. # [22:37] <Davstern15> I already use Closure Compiler.
  964. # [22:38] <Davstern15> I mean for all the "data".
  965. # [22:38] <Davstern15> And whatnot.
  966. # [22:39] <Moo^_^> I think protecting files with symmetric encryption and storing the key hidden in the source would prevent reading off files directly from the disk and that would be enough?
  967. # [22:39] <Davstern15> Whoa. UPX turned the 39 MB EXE to 18 MB.
  968. # [22:41] <Davstern15> EXE => UPX => ZIP was 18 MB or so, and EXE => ZIP was 22 MB.
  969. # [22:41] <Davstern15> Then again, that was the default settings for both...
  970. # [22:41] <Davstern15> I wonder what could happen with ultra settings for either... or both...
  971. # [22:41] * Davstern15 ends up with a 1 bit file.
  972. # [22:41] <Moo^_^> that's called recursive packing
  973. # [22:42] <Davstern15> Still, even 18 MB is not a super small game to distribute.
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  975. # [22:42] <Moo^_^> you can get there with chucknorrispack.exe
  976. # [22:42] <Davstern15> I am not happy about the "VM hypervisor" or what you should call it is so thick.
  977. # [22:42] <Davstern15> Never heard of it.
  978. # [22:42] * Moo^_^ goes to have some evening snack ->
  979. # [22:43] <Davstern15> You said something, then dropped it.
  980. # [22:43] <Davstern15> Very annoying.
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  1016. # [23:49] <Davstern15> Hmm.
  1017. # [23:50] <Davstern15> node-webkit counts all the "chrome and stuff" as part of the total window siz.
  1018. # [23:50] <Davstern15> *size
  1019. # [23:50] <Davstern15> So if I make it 800x600, I have to add pixels aribitrarly.
  1020. # [23:50] <Davstern15> I wish I could set the INTERNAL window size.
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  1022. # [23:55] * Quits: mchammel (~mchammer@31-18-141-177-dynip.superkabel.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1023. # [23:55] * Quits: amado (~amado@187.209.7.131) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  1024. # [23:56] * Quits: longbeach (~mike@AFontenayssB-152-1-3-69.w82-121.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  1025. # [23:57] * Joins: davidbanham (~davidbanh@59.167.72.204)
  1026. # Session Close: Fri Nov 23 00:00:00 2012

The end :)