/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2012-12-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 10 00:00:00 2012
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  40. # [00:49] <w00tner> does anyone uses fabric here ???
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  129. # [04:47] <martisj> morning all
  130. # [04:52] <w00tner> morning
  131. # [04:52] <w00tner> hey anyone alive?
  132. # [04:53] <OzDave_mbp> its just shy of 3pm down under, morning has been and gone
  133. # [04:53] <w00tner> why am i getting this TypeError: Object #<HTMLCanvasElement> has no method 'add' function: http://pastie.org/5504915
  134. # [04:53] <w00tner> its sunday 9 pm here
  135. # [04:55] <tw2113> someone in here who's good with js/canvas?help w00tner
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  140. # [04:58] <w00tner> im almost done yeah
  141. # [04:58] <w00tner> only 3 mor bugs to go
  142. # [04:59] <w00tner> and when i finish those three 4 more will appear
  143. # [04:59] <w00tner> thanks
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  164. # [05:43] <derrida> is there a way to determine if an element can be seen in the browser viewport at a given moment? I'm wondering about being able to make canvas elements only update/render while they are visible in the viewport?
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  168. # [05:49] <tw2113> calculate how far down the canvas dom element is, and then check against the current scroll amount
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  172. # [05:56] <derrida> tw2113: thank you!
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  185. # [06:28] <neXTleap> Why do site makers not understand that having anything that changes/flashes/moves around makes it 100% impossible for people to read the articles/content? At least this is the case for me. My eyes cannot focus on reading when there is anything that is animated on the same page.
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  192. # [06:34] <dahlfors> I think most people are still able to read articles still
  193. # [06:35] <dahlfors> it captures attention, but most people have learnt to focus on the content anyway
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  195. # [06:39] <neXTleap> I have not learnt it.
  196. # [06:40] <neXTleap> Because I think it's not possible to "learn" some thing.
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  202. # [06:44] <dahlfors> well. people have learnt to consume content on the web, and the web has gone through quite a few phases of different ways to present information. these days it is pretty common with banners at the sides and in the middle of articles
  203. # [06:44] <neXTleap> Look... if they are animated or move in any way, I cannot read the text.
  204. # [06:44] <dahlfors> from my own observations, most people can read these articles. if there would be a lot of people finding it impossible, I don't think most newspapers would be going for it
  205. # [06:44] <neXTleap> I think that goes for a lot of people.
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  207. # [06:45] <dahlfors> you are the first one I've heard about with this issue
  208. # [06:46] <dahlfors> depends on your definition for a lot. you're probably not alone, but if it would be a high percentage with these complaints, I don't think newspapers would have the ads they have these days
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  210. # [06:49] <neXTleap> dahlfors: Then I'm the first human being you've spoken to.
  211. # [06:49] <neXTleap> About this.
  212. # [06:49] <dahlfors> interesting how you'd know that...
  213. # [06:50] <dahlfors> - you're not
  214. # [06:50] <neXTleap> What makes you think that there would be a high percentage of complaints just because people are annoyed?
  215. # [06:50] <neXTleap> They accept any crap.
  216. # [06:50] <neXTleap> And never raise their voices.
  217. # [06:50] <dahlfors> if it would be 100% impossible for them to read
  218. # [06:50] <neXTleap> They just go away/don't read the article.
  219. # [06:51] <dahlfors> but from the other perspective: ads are tested with eyetracking, they try to place them and make them so that people look at them
  220. # [06:51] <dahlfors> quite a big percentage of the ppl I've ever met read newspapers online
  221. # [06:52] <dahlfors> and those newspapers surely have a lot of ads, and still they read them
  222. # [06:52] <dahlfors> here in Sweden more people read news online than on paper
  223. # [06:52] <neXTleap> I don't get people at all.
  224. # [06:53] <tw2113> people still see ads?
  225. # [06:53] <dahlfors> yes
  226. # [06:53] <neXTleap> http://www.nordfront.se/blodet-ska-styra-inte-guldet.smr <-- Example. Look to the right. The annoying thing is animated. Makes it impossible to read the article.
  227. # [06:53] <dahlfors> only the more technically skilled know about adblocking
  228. # [06:54] <dahlfors> neXTleap: I got no problem with that. sure I notice it's animated, but I don't lose my concentration still
  229. # [06:54] <neXTleap> I just can't focus on the context when something moves around without me clicking something.
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  231. # [06:54] <neXTleap> Uses interaction => animation is OK with me, of course.
  232. # [06:54] <tw2113> everyone's different
  233. # [06:54] <neXTleap> *User
  234. # [06:54] <tw2113> some people handle it fine, some don't so much
  235. # [06:55] <neXTleap> People seem to have some kind of mental blinkers built in.
  236. # [06:55] <neXTleap> Blinkers as in the things that horses have on their eyes.
  237. # [06:56] <tw2113> or they've just managed to learn how to tune it out
  238. # [06:56] <dahlfors> when I see a page, I see "this is the part I'm interested in" - then I just ignore the rest.
  239. # [06:57] <neXTleap> I have to set up elaborate filters myself.
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  241. # [06:57] <neXTleap> A combination of "no animation images", blocking huge amounts of scripts and ad servers, custom CSS and blocking all plug-ins by default.
  242. # [06:58] <neXTleap> And I really mean that I *cannot* read the articles otherwise.
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  244. # [06:58] <dahlfors> that is tough
  245. # [07:00] <tw2113> neXTleap, worth considering: http://evernote.com/clearly/
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  247. # [07:00] <tw2113> even if you don't use evernote specifically
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  249. # [07:01] <neXTleap> There sure are a lot of companies selling things that I would never dream of paying for.
  250. # [07:01] <neXTleap> But apparently others would.
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  252. # [07:02] <tw2113> not sure if it's avaiable as a chrome add-on, i'm a firefox user myself
  253. # [07:02] <tw2113> looks like it though
  254. # [07:02] <tw2113> but with a click of the mouse, all the disctractions go away
  255. # [07:05] <neXTleap> Would never use Chrome.
  256. # [07:05] <tw2113> why's that? if i may ask
  257. # [07:06] <neXTleap> Google has packed it full privacy invading junk.
  258. # [07:06] <neXTleap> *of
  259. # [07:06] <tw2113> sounds like a valid reason
  260. # [07:08] <tw2113> and you know, google never asks for your info, they just request you confirm it
  261. # [07:09] <neXTleap> Huh?
  262. # [07:10] <tw2113> they already know everything about you, so they don't collect new info
  263. # [07:10] <tw2113> they just make you confirm for accuracy
  264. # [07:10] <neXTleap> No, they don't.
  265. # [07:10] <neXTleap> Are you insane?
  266. # [07:10] <tw2113> only on sunday
  267. # [07:11] <neXTleap> Stop stating retarded shit.
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  269. # [07:11] <dahlfors> hehe. rage quit1
  270. # [07:12] <tw2113> never thought i'd cause that with a joke about google
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  272. # [07:13] <dahlfors> well, I can not be sure, but there's something with his way of arguing who reminds me of a few acquintances with asperger's / add. which could also explain his attention issues with reading texts when something is animated
  273. # [07:13] <dahlfors> these acquintances usually have a really hard time picking up jokes and understanding text on irc as well
  274. # [07:14] <tw2113> regarding my bit, it happens
  275. # [07:14] <tw2113> regarding the assessibility stuff, that is legit concern
  276. # [07:14] <dahlfors> have gotten into a few heated discussions for no apparent reason
  277. # [07:15] <dahlfors> interesting to know that there are users for whom it really is impossible to read the content when there are animated banners next to content
  278. # [07:15] <dahlfors> never knew anyone had it that bad
  279. # [07:16] <dahlfors> I'm all for minimalistic clean pages myself. animation to catch major attention or for some UI animations where it actually adds to the experience instead of being counterproductive
  280. # [07:16] <tw2113> i think a good rule of thumb would be assume they're out there, you just haven't run into them yet
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  283. # [07:17] <dahlfors> yeah. just surprised to hear about this, now. I know people with concentration issues, I've been doing front-end stuff for many years, never stumbled upon anyone for whom it is 100% impossible to read text
  284. # [07:18] <dahlfors> sure, ads catch attention and slows the user down... but making it impossible, wouldn't have expected that
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  287. # [07:20] <dahlfors> I take it these people are such a small percentage though that it's a market share that most ignore
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  353. # [09:43] <diomeo> guys can anyone give back own feedback about http://bitfungus.org ?
  354. # [09:43] * Joins: rezoner (~rezoner@user-5-173-203-145.play-internet.pl)
  355. # [09:44] <diomeo> we would like to make it more helpful much is possible for designers/developers
  356. # [09:44] <diomeo> any feature/fix request will be so much appriaciated
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  359. # [09:49] <diomeo> sorry for my dummy english :/
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  402. # [10:43] <K2> guys i am trying to embedd silverlight fallback in hmtl5 video tag.
  403. # [10:43] <K2> i am using swplayer
  404. # [10:44] <K2> can anyone please help me?
  405. # [10:44] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5082ACB0.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  406. # [10:45] <K2> i have mp4 files, IE, Chrome and Safari works with HTML5 tag. For FF I need silverlight player
  407. # [10:45] * Quits: dankest|away (~dankest@ip68-6-78-136.sb.sd.cox.net) (Quit: Leaving...)
  408. # [10:46] <K2> <video controls="" poster="files/thumbs/1632062594.jpg" tabindex="0">
  409. # [10:46] <K2> <source src="videos/fineprint.mp4"></source>
  410. # [10:46] <K2> <object width="350" height="280" data="data:application/x-silverlight," type="application/x-silverlight"><param value="#000000" name="background"><param value="files/wmvplayer.xaml" name="source"><param value="false" name="windowless"><param value="__slEvent0" name="onLoad"></object>
  411. # [10:46] <K2> </video>
  412. # [10:46] <K2> here is the code ^^
  413. # [10:47] <OzDave_mbp> use a pastebin at least
  414. # [10:47] <K2> it works fine with HTML5 player, but silverlight player doesn't load. if i isolate SL player and remove the HTML5 tag it works!
  415. # [10:48] <OzDave_mbp> what is wrong with this article?
  416. # [10:48] <OzDave_mbp> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc265155%28vs.95%29.aspx
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  422. # [10:49] <K2> let me check
  423. # [10:50] <K2> this article doesn't explain html5 video
  424. # [10:50] <K2> my problem is, without html5 video tag it works fine
  425. # [10:50] * Parts: diomeo (~Adium@host68-94-static.104-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it)
  426. # [10:50] <K2> and when i use silverlight as fallback to html5 video it doesn't load
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  432. # [11:03] <martisj> which element is most semantic for a drop down menu of notifications?
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  463. # [11:33] <martisj> is there one good reason for why i should focus on semantic html?
  464. # [11:33] <martisj> business wise?
  465. # [11:33] <martisj> it's time consuming
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  467. # [11:33] <martisj> i can only find heavily weighing negative arguments
  468. # [11:35] <austincheney> martisj: it is not time consuming if you are used to doing to correctly
  469. # [11:35] <austincheney> business cases: accessibility, seo to start with
  470. # [11:35] <martisj> austincheney: that's a good point, how many years do i need to spend to get used to doing it correctly?
  471. # [11:35] <martisj> accessibility for blind people?
  472. # [11:35] <austincheney> advanced semantic technologies, if you use any, could actually use your code if it were written correctly
  473. # [11:36] <martisj> austincheney: not being used
  474. # [11:36] <austincheney> martisj: you need 2 to 3 months doing your job correctly to get it down solid
  475. # [11:36] <martisj> austincheney: as for seo, is semantic html one of the top ten things a search engine considers?
  476. # [11:36] <austincheney> that means doing the same job you are already doing
  477. # [11:36] <austincheney> martisj: yes
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  480. # [11:37] <austincheney> semantics is more than just using better tags
  481. # [11:37] <martisj> austincheney: aha, this is new to mel
  482. # [11:37] <martisj> *me
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  484. # [11:37] <austincheney> it is about structure, using headings to describe blocks of content even if those headings are not visible
  485. # [11:38] <austincheney> a search bot has to query your page like SQL accesses a database
  486. # [11:38] <martisj> austincheney: interesting
  487. # [11:39] <austincheney> consider seo in 3 parts: back links, relevant content, and document structure (semantics)
  488. # [11:39] <martisj> headings are slightly limiting though when there are only h1-h6.
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  490. # [11:39] <austincheney> martisj: that is a poor definition of tags in HTML, there should only be a single heading tag
  491. # [11:40] <austincheney> and its prior should be defined by not some arbitrary tag name but by its placement in the document structure
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  493. # [11:40] <austincheney> priority not prior
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  498. # [11:40] <austincheney> accessibility is more important than seo though
  499. # [11:41] <austincheney> since back links and social media are important for SEO half the business case in seo investment comes back to online marketing spend
  500. # [11:41] <austincheney> accessibility is much cheaper to get right, though nobody does
  501. # [11:42] <austincheney> getting accessibility right actually means taking HTML seriously and nobody does
  502. # [11:43] <martisj> austincheney: agreed.
  503. # [11:43] <austincheney> for most people it is just some crap that JSP, ASP, or PHP pages output
  504. # [11:43] <martisj> it's just so damn difficult when the senior dev tells me, don't give a shit about the html just get it done
  505. # [11:43] <martisj> austincheney: indeed
  506. # [11:43] <austincheney> or the other extreme are usability people that think getting HTML right means a bunch of interactive bullshit that completely misses the point
  507. # [11:43] <martisj> i need some hard numbers for the senior dev to be convinced
  508. # [11:44] <martisj> interactive bullshit?
  509. # [11:44] <austincheney> martisj: find numbers about accessibility fines from the government and from lawsuits
  510. # [11:44] <martisj> accessibility fines?
  511. # [11:44] <martisj> wow.
  512. # [11:45] <martisj> didn't even know they existed
  513. # [11:45] <martisj> that's a good point
  514. # [11:45] <austincheney> martisj: by interactive bullshit I mean all the HTML5, CSS3, and JS extras that have absolutely nothing to do with better content
  515. # [11:45] <martisj> especially considering that we are gearing our site towards universities
  516. # [11:45] <martisj> austincheney: i see
  517. # [11:45] <austincheney> HTML is not there to be some magic glue
  518. # [11:45] <austincheney> it is a document structure
  519. # [11:45] <Dasleah> oh yeah like the case they taught us in university was uh the sydney olympics site
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  521. # [11:46] <Dasleah> the government was sued and the whole site had to be redesigned because you couldn't navigate it well without assuming an able-bodied person was browsing it
  522. # [11:46] <Dasleah> this was like one week before the olympics started
  523. # [11:46] <Dasleah> it was not cheap
  524. # [11:46] <Dasleah> as a bit of an understatement
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  526. # [11:46] <austincheney> UK has taken the leading on accessibility, and I believe the Austrial government has invested in this as well
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  528. # [11:46] <austincheney> the US is very slowly producing better accessibility laws though
  529. # [11:46] <martisj> Dasleah: shit that's epic
  530. # [11:47] <martisj> where can i read more about this austincheney?
  531. # [11:47] <austincheney> Australia... i cannot type
  532. # [11:47] <austincheney> just look for articles online about accessibility
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  534. # [11:48] <martisj> austincheney: do you know of any authorities in the field?
  535. # [11:48] <martisj> a list apart?
  536. # [11:48] <austincheney> to read some basic technical guidance check out the WCAG from the W3C
  537. # [11:48] <martisj> austincheney: Thanks!
  538. # [11:48] <austincheney> W3C is the authority without doubt
  539. # [11:48] <martisj> what would you put a search form inside?
  540. # [11:48] <austincheney> but they mostly publish technical guidance
  541. # [11:49] <Dasleah> <Dasleah> http://www.w3.org/WAI/bcase/socog-case-study
  542. # [11:49] <Dasleah> <Dasleah> the guy who complained got 20'000 for it
  543. # [11:49] <Dasleah> <Dasleah> and they spent a lot more than that redesigning the site for basically a week of 24hr days for a whole web team
  544. # [11:49] <austincheney> the best public speaker I have seen on the subject to Derek Featherstone
  545. # [11:49] <martisj> austincheney: I am aware of the w3c.
  546. # [11:49] <Dasleah> posted that in the wrong window
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  548. # [11:49] <austincheney> Dasleah: its relevant to what we are talking about
  549. # [11:49] <martisj> the issue is trying to get the site to look somewhat like the designs
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  551. # [11:50] <austincheney> martisj: you dont have to worry about that
  552. # [11:50] <martisj> worry about getting it to look like the designs?
  553. # [11:50] <Dasleah> if i could, i would specialise as an accessibility dude
  554. # [11:50] <austincheney> write the site first without any consideration for presentation
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  556. # [11:50] <martisj> austincheney: it's already been written
  557. # [11:50] <martisj> :S
  558. # [11:50] <austincheney> you can build presentation on top of solid HTML using CSS
  559. # [11:50] <Dasleah> but i wouldn't know how and no-one really cares until it becomes a problem that costs them money
  560. # [11:50] <Dasleah> it's a reactive thing, not a proactive thing
  561. # [11:51] <austincheney> Dasleah: yep, that is typically how it becomes very expensive
  562. # [11:51] <martisj> Dasleah: well then that will be your niche, when people are struggling you come in and save the day, and charge a butt load of money :)
  563. # [11:51] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  564. # [11:51] <austincheney> there is no reason accessibility should be an extra cost aside from better QA so long as it is always a primary consideration
  565. # [11:52] <austincheney> of course i am not talking about media though, it does take extra costs to make audio visual media accessible
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  569. # [11:55] <OzDave_mbp> accessibility through any version of IE however is usually a cost extra in my world, a friend charges a flat starting price of $600 if they want compatibility with that nightmare browser lineage
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  581. # [12:03] <austincheney> OzDave_mbp: that is because the staff at that organization is too incompetent to include accessibiity in the initial code design and so they have to call your friend to unfuck their code
  582. # [12:03] <austincheney> seriously, HTML is not that hard
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  584. # [12:05] <austincheney> there should be no reason why accessiblity costs more with IE. HTML interpretation, at least valid HTML, is extremely standard cross browser
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  586. # [12:06] <austincheney> CSS is different, but CSS has far less bearing on accessibility
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  588. # [12:06] <OzDave_mbp> In a perfect world perhaps
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  592. # [12:08] <austincheney> not in a perfect world
  593. # [12:08] <austincheney> the problem is the developers, not the technology
  594. # [12:08] <OzDave_mbp> whatever mate, I am not here to argue semantics with randoms
  595. # [12:09] <austincheney> in my company the developers are never wrong, but somehow the code is always fucked up
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  652. # [14:21] <roy___> I'm looking for one of those sites that let you test your website on multiple browsers at once
  653. # [14:21] <roy___> can anyone help me out with an url please ?
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  656. # [14:22] <Moo^_^> roy___: browserling.com
  657. # [14:22] <roy___> thanks
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  696. # [15:10] <roy___> So i'm testing my site on every single browser available on browserling.com and it looks good and yet on a computer of a buddy of mine it looks different
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  698. # [15:12] <xec> roy___: what site? what platform/browser version?
  699. # [15:13] <xec> and what is different? :)
  700. # [15:14] <roy___> ehm .. the site is http://www.royniginal.nl/tqtmp2/v2.0/home.html , windows/firefox latest version i think .. on his computer the facebook twitter en linkedin icons appear outside of the box (the gray area)
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  705. # [15:17] <roy___> xec: you read my reply ?
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  707. # [15:25] <Moo^_^> roy___: different fonts
  708. # [15:25] <Moo^_^> different DPI
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  710. # [15:25] <Moo^_^> and so on
  711. # [15:26] <roy___> Moo^_^: Nothing i can do about that ?
  712. # [15:26] <Moo^_^> roy___: everything can be fixed with proper CSS rules
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  714. # [15:32] <roy___> mmm well alright
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  782. # [16:44] <Moo^_^> nice
  783. # [16:44] <Moo^_^> webgl fragment shaders as CSS3 filters http://www.w3.org/TR/filter-effects/#feCustomElement
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  877. # [18:51] <paul_irish> anyone in here develop ecommerce or a checkout flow?
  878. # [18:52] <Jon47> i used to work at chegg.com, did a bit of work with the checkout flow, and integrated it w/ paypal's express checkout
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  881. # [18:55] <swakey> I've done a couple of bespoke checkout flows - multiple payment options (PayPal Standard, PayPal Payments Pro, via Phone etc.)
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  893. # [19:11] <sunbeam> $("li.current-item .item-content").animate({ display: "none"}, 500);
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  895. # [19:11] <sunbeam> any idea what I do wrong here? the classes targeted are the right ones
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  902. # [19:20] <swakey> Can you not use .... .animate({ opacity: 0 }), 500); instead?
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  905. # [19:22] <David_Bradbury> You can't animate the display property
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  907. # [19:24] <David_Bradbury> @ sunbeam
  908. # [19:24] <agu10^> hack u
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  913. # [19:26] <swakey> @sunbeam or use .... $("li.current-item .item-content").fadeOut(500); As David says, the display property is either "on" or "off", therefore you can't animate it. (I'm assuming you want to do a fade-out?)
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  916. # [19:28] <David_Bradbury> Well, display can be several different non-numeric values :) It makes as much sense as trying to do $(foo).animate({display:table-cell}) from an inline element
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  919. # [19:30] <swakey> I mean, it's values either set it to be hidden ("hidden") or visible (everything else...) - there's no in-between states (unless i've missed something) :)
  920. # [19:31] <swakey> Although I'm still making the assumption that sunbeam is trying to fade the element out :D
  921. # [19:31] <kristofers> Hey, i am redesigning my site from Flash to html5, the site is video oriented and at the end of the video some interaction is needed, for performance sake i'm wondering if i can have just one video and play different timeframes or is that maybe a bad idea ?
  922. # [19:32] <kristofers> Well actually when i think about it sounds like a bad idea, going to use ajax and just trying to think of the best way to have no loading or very little
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  944. # [19:49] <kristofers> Is there no way to force autoplay on ios devices ?
  945. # [19:49] <kristofers> with html5 video
  946. # [19:53] <David_Bradbury> on iOS you can only fire 'play' on a user event. Autoplay doesn't work by itself
  947. # [19:54] <David_Bradbury> I've been working on a web app where we needed an 'autoplay' feature, so I took the 'continue' button on the previous page and used that to fire the play event.
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  1130. # Session Close: Tue Dec 11 00:00:00 2012

The end :)