/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2013-06-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jun 30 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
  3. # [00:00] <Zelbinian> Hah, well, I think part of the trap of 2013, though is that people have learned to make things look simpler than they are and it's easy to get in over your head.
  4. # [00:01] <dahlfors_> well yeah. start simple, learn a few bits here and there about html, css, js
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  6. # [00:02] <dahlfors_> and yes, it has grown to become a huge subject, especially when adding in browser differences and mobile devices etc..
  7. # [00:02] <Zelbinian> Heh. The problem is defining what simple actually is. I just spent the afternoon trying to do a 4-column layout; seemed simple. Could never quite get it to do what I wanted.
  8. # [00:03] <Zelbinian> Then I looked a few examples and I would've *never* thought to do what those guys did.
  9. # [00:03] <dahlfors_> examples are great. for those things, you can also look at stuff like twitter bootstrap and other libs
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  11. # [00:04] <Zelbinian> Knowing the box model, flow, positioning (sort of), and pretty much all of the selectors prepares you surprisingly little for actually putting a page together.
  12. # [00:04] <Zelbinian> I tried Twitter Bootstrap. 6000+ lines of CSS... yech.
  13. # [00:05] <Zelbinian> I get real uncomfortable when I'm using something and I don't know what it does. Because it'll break, and then I'll have to fix it, and I won't know how.
  14. # [00:06] <dahlfors_> getting uncomfortable and getting out on deep waters, needing to fix things you don't know how to fix - is pretty much part of the learning =)
  15. # [00:06] * tantek is now known as yes
  16. # [00:06] <dahlfors_> but yeah, under big stress it might be tough
  17. # [00:06] * yes is now known as tantek
  18. # [00:08] <Zelbinian> There's just so many moving parts nowadays. And CSS is not exactly the most intuitive thing anyone has ever put together.
  19. # [00:09] <dahlfors_> probably not, no. it's grown a lot with time
  20. # [00:09] <Zelbinian> Like, here's an example.
  21. # [00:09] <Zelbinian> I have 4 divs to be columns inside of a containing div.
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  24. # [00:10] <Zelbinian> When I say width: 25%, I'm expecting all 4 of the floated divs to just fit. I'm expecting this because I know that the browser knows how to compute the size of something including margin, border, padding, and content.
  25. # [00:10] <dahlfors_> and yes, padding adds to the width :)
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  27. # [00:11] <Zelbinian> But, no. Width just affects the content
  28. # [00:11] * Zelbinian throws up hands
  29. # [00:12] <dahlfors_> one thing I'd really like is that padding would just push content a bit more inwards in an element, not add to width and height of element
  30. # [00:13] <dahlfors_> however, that's alright once you learn it
  31. # [00:13] <dahlfors_> what really annoys me most is when browsers do things differently
  32. # [00:14] <Zelbinian> Oh, right, then there's that.
  33. # [00:14] <dahlfors_> like, font-face font embedding. not only do you need to do it in a bucketload of formats - that would be ok...
  34. # [00:14] <Zelbinian> Brings to mind this: http://xkcd.com/927/
  35. # [00:14] <dahlfors_> but then, if you want to support a lot of weights per font, ie is tied down to font-weight: normal; and font-weight: bold;
  36. # [00:15] <dahlfors_> when typefaces have lots of different weights for fonts, it'd be really neat if you could then just use the font-weight: 100; -> font-weight: 900;
  37. # [00:15] <dahlfors_> but nope, there comes IE
  38. # [00:15] <dahlfors_> :)
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  40. # [00:16] <dahlfors_> yeah. pretty much that situation
  41. # [00:16] <dahlfors_> I'm happy that opera switches their engine now
  42. # [00:16] <Zelbinian> I've been trying to learn this for years and I just keep getting defeated. But I'm not giving up this time.
  43. # [00:16] <dahlfors_> what? css?
  44. # [00:16] <Zelbinian> I'm gonna code up my own webpage even if it makes my fingers bleed.
  45. # [00:17] <Zelbinian> CSS/JavaScript/HTML5 etc
  46. # [00:18] <dahlfors_> good luck. remember that it is a big subject, and you won't learn it all at once
  47. # [00:18] * zombierry is now known as erry
  48. # [00:18] <dahlfors_> you'll have to pick up bits and pieces on the way - and keep on learning
  49. # [00:18] <Zelbinian> Yup, yup, I know. It's just so hard to find right-sized projects, you know?
  50. # [00:18] <dahlfors_> but the base stuff you pick up will keep on being along there on the way
  51. # [00:18] <Zelbinian> Codecademy is way too easy and hand-holds you the entire way. Everything else is like swimming with sharks haha
  52. # [00:19] <dahlfors_> yeah. I've been thinking this many times. it must be a lot to piece together for everyone who start learning now
  53. # [00:19] <dahlfors_> when I started out, there was no css, and javascript capabilities were very limited
  54. # [00:20] <Zelbinian> People keep saying "Inspect elements" and stuff, but when half of what's been done is in JS you're only getting part of the picture that way.
  55. # [00:20] <Zelbinian> And, of course, people don't document properly because... well, they just don't.
  56. # [00:20] <dahlfors_> my advice there is: find simple examples, and learn which terms you want to search on for what you want to do
  57. # [00:21] <Zelbinian> Yeah, trying.
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  59. # [00:21] <dahlfors_> there's pieces missing here and there for me still, and I've been dealing with web a long time :)
  60. # [00:21] <Zelbinian> At least I'm coding in Linux now :)
  61. # [00:22] <dahlfors_> then you're up for some fun when viewing the site in os x / windows..
  62. # [00:22] <dahlfors_> that's one other major annoyment: the difference in type rendering engines in different system
  63. # [00:22] <dahlfors_> s
  64. # [00:23] <Zelbinian> Luckily Chromium and Chrome are more or less alike
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  67. # [00:24] <dahlfors_> on that front I have two major pet peeves: 1) the font-rendering engines render typefaces very differently, 2) when using custom font-faces in smaller sizes, a lot of custom fonts just render TERRIBLY
  68. # [00:25] <Zelbinian> Yeah. And then lots of frameworks love to use Helvetica Neue as a base font.
  69. # [00:25] <dahlfors_> I can't wait enough for the day when most devices will be high-ppi devices, or "Retina" if you want to throw around Apples branding.
  70. # [00:25] <dahlfors_> wtf
  71. # [00:25] <dahlfors_> which frameworks uses helvetica neue as a basefont?
  72. # [00:25] <Zelbinian> Twitter Bootstrap!
  73. # [00:26] <dahlfors_> guess it is better than helvetica though
  74. # [00:26] <dahlfors_> because, helvetica renders AWFULLY in windows
  75. # [00:26] <Zelbinian> I had to write a custom Chrome rule to tell the browser to load something different instead.
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  77. # [00:26] <Zelbinian> Yeah, exactly. Sometimes it was just aesthetically unpleasant, but other times it would actually break webpages.
  78. # [00:26] <dahlfors_> and, certain printer drivers tend to install helvetica, so, some might have it although it isn't a system font in a clean system
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  84. # [00:27] <Zelbinian> I think the issue was my Windows 7 box had like... 30 different versions of Helvetica somehow and it just kept getting confused.
  85. # [00:27] <dahlfors_> the original issue with helvetica is that it is custom-made for print use
  86. # [00:27] <dahlfors_> not for screen use
  87. # [00:27] <dahlfors_> and to get it to render properly, you need some major hinting and hacks to do it
  88. # [00:28] <dahlfors_> I'm still not sure what apple did to get it to render properly, but they did it early on in their systems
  89. # [00:28] <okee> I am a confused about the <link rel> that goes in the header. Shows up as an error on validation, and the error takes me to a series of links, that indicate a change in the html specification, as opposed to the html 5 specification. The following links are referenced in order: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#linkTypes http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-app
  90. # [00:28] <okee> s/current-work/multipage/links.html#hyperlink Prior to html 5, a typical line of code would be <link rel="Health Plan" href="../plans.html" > What should that be now? Should I use the <link rel="alternate" type="application/html" href="plan.html">. I am confused by the instructions, and why they discontinued the earlier usage of link rel.
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  96. # [00:30] <okee> Forgot to mention that my code is hosted here --> http://chic.cacccd.org/html_docs/index.html
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  99. # [00:33] <dahlfors_> if I get it correctly, "split on spaces" is the key there
  100. # [00:34] <dahlfors_> "Health Plan" means that it is two attributes, Health and Plan
  101. # [00:34] <dahlfors_> not "Health Plan"
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  104. # [00:35] <dahlfors_> and yes, link rel="alternate" should be the one you use
  105. # [00:36] <dahlfors_> what does your alternate pages do?
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  108. # [00:37] <okee> I am not using an alternate page, but trying to associate the title of the page, with the name of the html document.
  109. # [00:37] <okee> This part of the new specification is confusing. They didn't give us enough examples.
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  111. # [00:39] <okee> link rel="prefetch" is also confusing. Are they referring to documents outside of your website? In documents inside your website, that are different than the document with focus? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#link-type-prefetch
  112. # [00:41] <dahlfors_> afaik, there is nothing in a <link> element to associate a title with a url
  113. # [00:41] <dahlfors_> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/links.html#linkTypes
  114. # [00:41] <dahlfors_> read the "brief descriptions" - that's what they do and are used for
  115. # [00:42] <dahlfors_> I honestly don't know what you are trying to do
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  118. # [00:47] <okee> I am not sure that I know what I am trying to do as well.
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  120. # [00:49] <dahlfors_> the way you use it would be wrong by html4 spec too: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/types.html#type-links
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  122. # [00:49] <dahlfors_> which would be the same for xhtml
  123. # [00:50] <okee> What would be considered good coding practice? And can you use more than one link type in the same 'link rel'? Should I use the "prefetch"? Or should I use "stylesheets"?
  124. # [00:50] <okee> Can they be used together?
  125. # [00:51] <dahlfors_> for what reason would you need those?
  126. # [00:52] <dahlfors_> I still don't get your 00:27 < okee> I am not using an alternate page, but trying to associate the title of the page, with the name of the html document.
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  128. # [00:52] <okee> I am using external style sheets, but ones that I created on the same site. Would I use it for this incidence?
  129. # [00:53] <dahlfors_> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="http://url/to/stylesheet.css">
  130. # [00:53] <dahlfors_> that's correct for html5
  131. # [00:56] <okee> I don't hink you have to indicate the type if it is text. Text is by default. But thanks for clarifying this. I am not sure why the style sheet 'link rel', since I am inserting a link to the stylesheet anyway.
  132. # [00:57] <Zelbinian> Yeah, link is weird.
  133. # [00:57] <Zelbinian> Actually, the fact that link, a, and img don't all behave the same is weirder.
  134. # [00:58] <okee> Would I receive benefit with <link rel="stylesheet">, if I already have a <style></style> in the header? What exactly is this line of code doing?
  135. # [00:59] <dahlfors_> you use one css file for linking the style for all of your site
  136. # [00:59] <dahlfors_> or several
  137. # [00:59] <dahlfors_> so you don't need to have styles declared on every page of yours
  138. # [00:59] <Zelbinian> okee: <link> imports a stylesheet file. <style> let's you write CSS right in the document.
  139. # [01:00] <Zelbinian> Right, what dahlfors_ said. If you keep it in an external file, you can use it multiple places and then have only one thing to change.
  140. # [01:00] <okee> ok. I already have a link for that anyway. And what about the prefetch?
  141. # [01:01] <dahlfors_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_prefetching
  142. # [01:01] <dahlfors_> it's rarely used
  143. # [01:03] <okee> This seems to be similar to the old "cache command" that was in earlier editions of Firefox. So it looks like they are moving in the direction of only caching things specified by the author. I would like to know more about when this might be useful.
  144. # [01:03] <dahlfors_> most sites will use only link rel="shortcut icon" and link rel="stylesheet" really
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  146. # [01:05] <okee> I am wondering if there might be some security issues with prefetch? I see potential problems with this.
  147. # [01:06] <dahlfors_> I don't think prefetch will be adopted as any standard
  148. # [01:06] <okee> What they really need is a specification that clears the cache upon leaving a site. That would seem a lot more useful.
  149. # [01:06] <okee> As long as the cache doesn't cache data stored on the server, it could be useful.
  150. # [01:06] <dahlfors_> prefetching and speeding up web in that sense seems to be a weird thing to do document-side
  151. # [01:07] <okee> It actually used to exist in earlier editions of Firefox and Opera, but was deprecated.
  152. # [01:07] * jalcine- is now known as jalcine
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  155. # [01:07] <dahlfors_> again, that shouldn't be in html, but rather in browser config
  156. # [01:08] <dahlfors_> if you want to keep things for a short while in cache, there are meta tags for it
  157. # [01:08] <okee> I am leaning towards that sentiment as well.
  158. # [01:09] <okee> What would be more useful is a browser configuration that allows this, with an html component that clears it. That way only certain pages can over ride the browser configuration.
  159. # [01:10] <okee> Alternatively an html that allows it, with a browser configuration that doesn't allow it. Unless there are two separate controls, both browser and html, putting anything in html will end up being a lot more damaging, and really open up some security holes.
  160. # [01:10] <dahlfors_> I don't see the reason why, really
  161. # [01:11] <okee> there are add-ons that allow you to clear cache now.
  162. # [01:11] <dahlfors_> http://www.metatags.org/meta_http_equiv
  163. # [01:11] <okee> I too don't think it is necessary, and look at it as code bloat.
  164. # [01:11] <dahlfors_> create that meta tag dynamically
  165. # [01:12] <dahlfors_> let it be 10-30 minutes or so in the future
  166. # [01:12] <dahlfors_> then it's probably outside the users browsing session, or the browser will make another request in a while
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  168. # [01:12] <okee> yes
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  173. # [01:15] <okee> another idea is to tie the cache to the users login. That too would be good.
  174. # [01:15] <okee> The site that I am working on is going to have some pages for authentification.
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  176. # [01:23] <okee> How important is the no-cache for meta for security of data? <meta http-equiv="pragma" content="no-cache">
  177. # [01:23] <okee> I don't like the idea of removing the cache from another users computer, since that is a primary way many people find sites that they regularly use. However, I don't want database data cached.
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  179. # [01:26] <dahlfors_> for security: none
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  181. # [01:27] <okee> You mean I should not allow the page to be cached?
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  184. # [01:28] <dahlfors_> if security is a real priority - use https sessions when logged in, and if the user becomes idle, you let the session time out
  185. # [01:29] <dahlfors_> cache won't help anything at all if the session is timed out
  186. # [01:29] <okee> ok. I only need to do that for one of the pages. Thanks
  187. # [01:29] <sveltponce> who dahlfors
  188. # [01:29] <seroesk_> leave
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  191. # [01:29] <dahlfors_> sveltponce: it's me
  192. # [01:30] <dahlfors_> sites like facebook keep the session going on for a long long time. this is why it's so easy to facerape their friends
  193. # [01:30] <dahlfors_> sites like banks usually let the session time out in ten minutes or so
  194. # [01:33] <okee> What code would I use, to avoid the validators from checking non-standard code, such as <link rel="Health Plan" href="../plans.html"> ?
  195. # [01:35] <dahlfors_> ...
  196. # [01:36] <dahlfors_> I still can't see why you'd want to keep that piece of code that really doesn't do anything in your document
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  198. # [01:36] <okee> I was thinking it might help with rankings, and 508 compliance.
  199. # [01:37] <dahlfors_> as far as I know, custom keywords (that are not part of the spec!) in link rel has never had anything to do with SEO
  200. # [01:38] <dahlfors_> if you missed it, they aren't part of html5 spec, they never were part of html4 spec (nor xhtml...)
  201. # [01:38] <dahlfors_> for search engine spiders, I'd assume they ignore it
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  203. # [01:40] <dahlfors_> the valid rel attributes however, are most likely checked up
  204. # [01:41] <okee> I only have two, but discovered many meta tags that I can use, from th site you mentioned <Metatags.org />. This is a great site.
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  206. # [01:42] <dahlfors_> what you are doing with your document, is ignoring attributes that browsers nor spiders won't understand - and just ignore
  207. # [01:42] <dahlfors_> *is adding
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  209. # [01:44] <dahlfors_> but in today's world of social networking and personalised search results, content that actually gets linked by people and sites are more important to focus on than getting the right meta tags
  210. # [01:45] <dahlfors_> right meta tags help, and content on site as well
  211. # [01:45] <dahlfors_> the sitemap as well
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  214. # [01:45] <dahlfors_> the personalisation in search turns it all upside down though
  215. # [01:47] <Zelbinian> Yeah, and that puts SEO and UX at odds sometimes
  216. # [01:48] <okee> What does the local option really mean? And how local is it? Can you specify zip codes? <meta name="distribution" content="global">
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  221. # [01:50] <dahlfors_> use google :)
  222. # [01:51] <dahlfors_> http://www.webmarketingnow.com/tips/meta-tags-uncovered.html
  223. # [01:51] <dahlfors_> read there what it says about distribution
  224. # [01:51] <dahlfors_> you can't really deny access to anything in a html document
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  226. # [01:51] <dahlfors_> if you want to enable/disable access - you do it in server-side language, firewall or web server
  227. # [01:53] <dahlfors_> and if you want to provide good seo
  228. # [01:54] <dahlfors_> start at https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/
  229. # [01:56] <Zelbinian> I also found this to be good, at least from a n00b perspective: http://moz.com/beginners-guide-to-seo
  230. # [01:56] <Zelbinian> It's a little lengthy, but generally well written.
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  232. # [01:57] <dahlfors_> and remember, most old articles about seo are in general dead-ends. consider stuff from 2010 and older deprecated..
  233. # [01:57] <dahlfors_> some stuff apply, but keep to new articles
  234. # [02:00] <Zelbinian> I think the one I shared was updated just this past March, so it should still be good
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  237. # [02:14] <okee> thanks.
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  280. # [03:44] <okee> Does html 5 offer rounded submit buttons?
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  323. # [05:17] <TeddyMurray> anyone here familiar with webRTC?
  324. # [05:18] <TeddyMurray> im trying to find a decent demo
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  326. # [05:18] <TeddyMurray> well ive found demos -- just no source code demo
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  506. # [12:26] <leraje> hi
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  531. # [13:05] <jerryzhou> hi
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  631. # [16:00] <galant> <!--[if lte IE 8]> this works 100% of the time without mistakes?
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  640. # [16:17] <dahlfors_> 100% is tough to say, when it comes to IE...
  641. # [16:17] <dahlfors_> :)
  642. # [16:18] <dahlfors_> but yes, they should. and I've never seen conditional comments bug
  643. # [16:18] <dahlfors_> galant: http://www.quirksmode.org/css/condcom.html
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  645. # [16:20] <patsToms> I have array with objects, I want to use it with handlebars. I tread something like {{#each array}}{{@title}}{{/each}} but it wont work
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  647. # [16:21] <patsToms> I got clear string
  648. # [16:21] <patsToms> any ideas?
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  650. # [16:22] <galant> thanks
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  775. # [19:48] <wrock> hello everybody
  776. # [19:49] <wrock> I'm currently setting uop my website, and since i want to "outsource" my articles to another file(not index.html)
  777. # [19:50] <wrock> is there something in html5 for reading a file( like read(/articles/articel1.txt) which read it one by one and replaces it that space on the website then?
  778. # [19:50] <wrock> by reading, loading file i only find source for uploading files
  779. # [19:51] <dahlfors_> you can fetch with ajax/js. but if it is more some kind of dynamic page generation, you likely want to look at server side languages
  780. # [19:51] <wrock> ye its omething like that
  781. # [19:52] <wrock> i want to add a comment function further on
  782. # [19:52] <wrock> and for that i want to read/write a file
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  787. # [19:53] <wrock> ive something with a inline replacement in mind, but not sure if this is posible with html5
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  863. # [22:38] <galant> can I append img element between text nodes?
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  917. # Session Close: Mon Jul 01 00:00:00 2013

The end :)