/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2016-01-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jan 16 00:00:00 2016
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
  3. # [00:00] <Pomax> I don't see a jsbin?
  4. # [00:00] <Pomax> (or similar actual live page that shows the problem)
  5. # [00:01] <Pomax> the short answer's probably "because floats don't exist as far as the surrounding markup is concerned, they've been floated off to the side and are only "next to" other floated elements"
  6. # [00:01] <deecee> sure. but to be clear, i think that is how they're supposed to behave
  7. # [00:02] <deecee> i just want to know why
  8. # [00:02] <deecee> Pomax: if they don't exist, why does the margin get applied here: http://learnlayout.com/float.html ?
  9. # [00:03] <deecee> i can try to recreate that in a bin
  10. # [00:03] <Pomax> that's the float's margin, not the element around it. Again, without code to link your word "this" to, not much to say
  11. # [00:03] <Pomax> other than pointing out the spec of course (https://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visuren.html#propdef-float)
  12. # [00:03] <deecee> Pomax: why does the float's margin matter but not the other?
  13. # [00:03] <Pomax> the float's margin define's the float's content box
  14. # [00:03] <Pomax> content has to float around that.
  15. # [00:05] <Pomax> *defines
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  17. # [00:06] <Pomax> on the other hand, margins on content that flows around a float only affect other flow content.
  18. # [00:07] <Pomax> the floated element controls the "what we flow around" region, and the content that flows around the float controls how things behave relative to each other as they flow.
  19. # [00:08] <deecee> i read that spec page but it didn't say that
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  23. # [00:17] <Pomax> also remember that margin means different things for different display: types. block margins are full control, but inline margins only affects left/right spacing.
  24. # [00:17] <Pomax> so a margin-top on a span will, if you don't mark it display:inline-block or display:block, do nothing.
  25. # [00:17] <moo-_-> I suggest https://philipwalton.github.io/solved-by-flexbox/
  26. # [00:17] <moo-_-> trololo
  27. # [00:18] <Pomax> that's not a troll, so much as sound advice. flexbox is supported by everything (and has been for a while now), and is almost always a better solution (unless you're floating non-semantic images in text or something)
  28. # [00:19] <Pomax> http://flexboxfroggy.com/ is awesome at making you get flexbox
  29. # [00:21] <deecee> first, thanks for the answers. second, i learned about left/right margins for inline a few hours ago.
  30. # [00:21] <deecee> third, it sounds like a good idea for me to know how the basics work before i try flex
  31. # [00:21] <moo-_-> Pomax: wow
  32. # [00:21] <moo-_-> nice! :)
  33. # [00:27] <Pomax> it's super fun. Even if you know flexbox, some of the puzzles are nice challenges
  34. # [00:29] <deecee> sorry to say I'm still not satisfied with why the non-floated margin doesn't push off of the "what we flow around" region
  35. # [00:29] <Pomax> that's fine, but then please first make a jsbin or the like that demonstrates what you're looking at, so we can see the same thing and know we're talking about the same things
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  37. # [00:30] <deecee> sure: http://codepen.io/anon/pen/qbPXNZ?editors=110
  38. # [00:31] <Pomax> aiight. So divs 2 and 3 in fact have margin, it just has no meaning because it overlaps the float region. The positioning for 2 and 3 is "flow around div 1", and only once you get them more margin than div 1 is wide will you see them repositioned
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  40. # [00:32] <deecee> but why? the float defines a new start position for them, so why don't they push off of that to satisfy their margin?
  41. # [00:32] <Pomax> and because this isn't float + flow content, but float + block content, the block elements act as if the float is position:absolute
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  43. # [00:33] <Pomax> no it doesn't, that's only if divs 2 and 3 are flow elements, but display:block (which divs are by default) means they don't flow.
  44. # [00:34] <deecee> i don't understand the relevance of that answer
  45. # [00:34] <deecee> the float determines where "the rest of it" will start
  46. # [00:34] <Pomax> if you want a float to behave you need to use it alongside content that can flow around a float.
  47. # [00:34] <Pomax> again, it does not.
  48. # [00:34] <Pomax> it ONLY does that if the other content is flowable (i.e. inline) content.
  49. # [00:35] <deecee> oh, that's true, i forgot i set the margin left
  50. # [00:35] <Pomax> divs are not flowable by default, they're block elements, and treat floats as if they're width:0 height:0 position:absolute elements
  51. # [00:35] <deecee> flow == inline?
  52. # [00:36] <Pomax> amongst others. inline, inline-block, table-cell, can't remember the full list
  53. # [00:37] <deecee> sure
  54. # [00:37] <deecee> inline and similar
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  56. # [00:39] <deecee> Pomax: thanks again. I see what I didn't understand before - the difference between flow and nonflow where floats are concerned.
  57. # [00:40] <Pomax> nice
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  64. # [00:57] <deecee> dumb question this time, where are the user agent stylesheet references?
  65. # [00:58] <deecee> I want to find out whether a given element (section, in this case) is block or inline by default but MDN doesn't seem to list that
  66. # [00:58] <deecee> i know the spec says everything is inline, so I thought the UAS would be the place to look
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  68. # [01:00] <deecee> ah, it's on the Block list: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Block-level_elements
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  79. # [01:36] <deecee> aw man
  80. # [01:36] <deecee> i thought i had it
  81. # [01:40] <deecee> http://codepen.io/anon/pen/bEorxO?editors=110
  82. # [01:41] <deecee> I thought any block element would slide under the floated element
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  84. # [01:43] <deecee> is there another rule for *text inside a block element*?
  85. # [01:45] <Pomax> only if you tell them to.
  86. # [01:45] <Pomax> two ways: make the thing that has to start at a new "line" have clear: both
  87. # [01:48] <deecee> Pomax: i'm not seeing how this is any different than the situation we talked about earlier
  88. # [01:48] <deecee> there's a float, and then a block element following it
  89. # [01:48] <Pomax> for one, you're doing weird things. Why is your <a> a float
  90. # [01:49] <deecee> why not? somebody told me it didn't matter whether I used an <a> or a <button> for that. were they wrong?
  91. # [01:49] <Pomax> this sounds different because it sounds like you want a div to start after the float's vertical box
  92. # [01:49] <Pomax> for that, the div needs to be told to "clear: [left|right|both]" which is the CSS instruction that tells the div to not treat floats as "they're not here" but as "they take up vertical space only, so start the block after that"
  93. # [01:50] <Pomax> if you want to be semantically sensible then yes there is a world of difference
  94. # [01:50] <deecee> no, I don't want it cleared
  95. # [01:50] <Pomax> you generally either float a container (not content) or you float blocks inside of content.
  96. # [01:50] <Pomax> so div:float(a) makes a lot of sense, a:float does not.
  97. # [01:51] <Pomax> sorry, I thought you meant you expected "I thought any block element would slide under the floated element"
  98. # [01:51] <deecee> in the example we had earlier, the two divs overlapped, because #1 was floated. #2 started on the left side of the page, and they overlapped.
  99. # [01:51] <Pomax> as earlier, a block element doesn't do that at all.
  100. # [01:51] <Pomax> unless you clear, block elements treat floated elements as "these things don't exist as far as my positioning is concerned"
  101. # [01:51] <Pomax> no matter what you set for height, width, etc, block elements ignore that _entirely_
  102. # [01:52] <deecee> that's what I understood from earlier, but that isn't what it's doing now!
  103. # [01:52] <deecee> i can be very specific here
  104. # [01:53] <deecee> earlier, I had a float:left div, which was a block element, followed by another div, also a block element, right?
  105. # [01:53] <deecee> and #2 slid under #1 because it treated #1 like it wasn't there
  106. # [01:54] <Pomax> right?
  107. # [01:54] <Pomax> because the first div is floated.
  108. # [01:54] <deecee> ...in this case, I have a float:left div, which is block, followed by another div, also block.
  109. # [01:54] <deecee> but it's not sliding under. why?
  110. # [01:54] <Pomax> once it's float, it is no longer "inline" or "block" itself. It is now floating content.
  111. # [01:55] <Pomax> because of your weird element use. <div> <a> <section> </div> comes with great browser-prespecified layout
  112. # [01:55] <Pomax> go with <section> <div floating>...</div> <div not floating>...</div></section> first
  113. # [01:56] <Pomax> so you're being semantically correct: a section of page, inside of which we have some floating and non-floating parts.
  114. # [01:56] <deecee> I only picked section because it's a block element
  115. # [01:56] <Pomax> don't do that. if you need generic block, use div
  116. # [01:56] <Pomax> if you need generic inline, use span
  117. # [01:56] <Pomax> also crap I need to get going, forgot to look at the time.
  118. # [01:56] <deecee> I tried section only *because* the div wasn't working either.
  119. # [01:56] <deecee> thanks again
  120. # [01:57] <deecee> hope someone else can figure this out
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  123. # [02:04] <deecee> in case anyone else can help, here's the updated one: http://codepen.io/anon/pen/bEorxO?editors=110
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  234. # [09:09] <dekiss> if I have image that is hidden and then after some time using javascript if I set the src attribute of another image same as the src attribute of the hidden image, will the browser get the image locally from my pc cache or it will download the image?
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  236. # Session Close: Sat Jan 16 09:14:36 2016
  237. #
  238. # Session Start: Sat Jan 16 09:14:36 2016
  239. # Session Ident: #html5
  240. # [09:14] * Disconnected
  241. # [10:00] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html5
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  243. # [10:01] * Topic is 'Ask any question about HTML5 & Friends || HTML5 Spec for Developers: http://developers.whatwg.org || Also: http://html5rocks.com http://diveintohtml5.info http://mzl.la/9giLwR || Channel logs: http://j.mp/cG7UDa'
  244. # [10:01] * Set by marienz!marienz@freenode/staff/marienz on Fri Oct 21 20:53:09
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  247. # [10:18] <zefside> ?
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  398. # [20:15] <saleh> hello ppl
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  486. # Session Close: Sun Jan 17 00:00:00 2016

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