/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2008-09-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 10 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:09] <mfbot> [[rel-tag]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag&diff=0&oldid=28678 * Tretti * (+111) Examples in the Wild - using the element in a tag cloud doesn't make sence, but using it when categorizing (tagging) entries, it does.
  4. # [00:09] <mfbot> [[rel-tag]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag&diff=0&oldid=28679 * Tretti * (+1) Examples in the Wild - formatting
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  9. # [01:32] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=28680 * Tretti * (+163)
  10. # [02:11] <mfbot> [[events/2008-09-09-london-meetup-dinner]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-09-09-london-meetup-dinner&diff=0&oldid=28681 * GeorgeBrock * (+43) Added self to attendees
  11. # [02:13] <mfbot> [[User:GeorgeBrock]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:GeorgeBrock * GeorgeBrock * (+139)
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  13. # [02:15] <mfbot> [[User:GeorgeBrock]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:GeorgeBrock&diff=0&oldid=28683 * GeorgeBrock * (-31)
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  72. # [12:00] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=28684 * Tantek * (+278) linked sub-listing of grouped hCards
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  74. # [12:07] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=28685 * Tantek * (+105) group skateboardinfo operator with Individuals, sort individuals by family name
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  76. # [12:28] <mfbot> [[events/2008-09-09-london-meetup-dinner]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-09-09-london-meetup-dinner&diff=0&oldid=28686 * Tantek * (+395) add some attendees
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  89. # [13:39] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=28687 * GeorgeBrock * (+51) added self to IRC regulars
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  105. # [14:35] <mfbot> [[benefits]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/benefits * GeorgeBrock * (+2804)
  106. # [14:42] <georgebrock> I just added a page to the wiki explaining some of the benefits to publishers of using microformats
  107. # [14:43] <georgebrock> seems to be something we should have a single page we can easily send people to when they ask
  108. # [14:43] <tobyink> i noticed. in my experience, you're making a *big* assumption with #2. ;-)
  109. # [14:43] <georgebrock> hehe, maybe
  110. # [14:44] <georgebrock> "you're closer to knowing HTML than you are to knowing vCard" might be a more accurate, but more insulting, way of phrasing it
  111. # [14:44] <georgebrock> please do add to and/or edit it though
  112. # [14:45] <tobyink> the majority of microformats in the wild seem to be generated by CMSes, so people don't need to know HTML anyway.
  113. # [14:48] <georgebrock> it would apply to the people building the CMSes though, and they're the people who need to understand the benefits and start adding ufs to their products
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  116. # [14:49] <georgebrock> I also mainly build CMSes for a living, which probably biases the kind of benefits I would think of :)
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  118. # [14:50] <tobyink> some CMS hCards are crappy though. Look at the use of the "label" property on twitter.
  119. # [14:50] <tobyink> and "adr" for that matter.
  120. # [14:51] <tobyink> "adr" on Google maps sucks too.
  121. # [14:58] <georgebrock> Some CMS stuff is pretty good though, you just have to keep your users on a short enough leash
  122. # [15:00] <georgebrock> for example: http://www.aduk.org/directory.php and http://www.aduk.org/contact.php is all CMS'd
  123. # [15:07] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=28688 * GeorgeBrock * (+265) new and uncategorized examples -
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  125. # [15:08] <madness> the problem is getting people to mark stuff up inline, surely, though ?
  126. # [15:09] <madness> f.e, I want to get journalists to mark up their sources in hcard inside their articles - so far as I know, there's no easy tools to allow them to do that.
  127. # [15:09] <madness> in an ideal world, you'd be able to select a bit of text and say "this is a person".
  128. # [15:10] <georgebrock> @madness have you seen Matthew Levine's hCard wizard? http://matthewlevine.com/projects/hcard-wizard
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  131. # [15:12] <madness> hmm, that's really cool. I guess I could do something similar and have it amend the code inside a wysiwyg window or something
  132. # [15:12] <madness> or a textarea
  133. # [15:13] <madness> *checks for licensing information*
  134. # [15:13] <tantekc> georgebrock - that's an excellent start on /wiki/benefits !
  135. # [15:13] <tantekc> and nice to meet you last night
  136. # [15:13] <georgebrock> thanks tantek, good to meet you too
  137. # [15:13] <madness> georgebrock: did I meet you last night, too ?
  138. # [15:13] * madness was there, but not sure if he got to speak to you
  139. # [15:14] <madness> I have this old irc nickname that I should probably change so people actually recognise me
  140. # [15:14] * madness is now known as markng
  141. # [15:14] <tantekc> madness - were you in London or SF? we now have two weekly microformats meetups going :)
  142. # [15:14] <tantekc> oh ok
  143. # [15:16] * tantekc scrolls up
  144. # [15:16] <tantekc> ah, there appear to be some misconceptions, or at least questions, regarding some of the benefits
  145. # [15:17] <georgebrock> markng: I don't think we spoke, but I think I saw you at the other end of a crowded pub table :)
  146. # [15:17] <tantekc> tobyink, regarding: "the majority of microformats in the wild seem to be generated by CMSes"...
  147. # [15:17] <tantekc> I would agree with that assesment
  148. # [15:18] <tantekc> however, I disagree with your conclusion: "so people don't need to know HTML anyway"
  149. # [15:18] <tantekc> because those CMSes are generating microformats from templates which are written in at least a little bit of HTML
  150. # [15:18] <markng> georgebrock: I was mostly chatting with matt harris and cindy li. I'm the large (vertical and horizontal) half-chinese half-english guy.
  151. # [15:19] <georgebrock> markng: I was at the other end of the table, the non-descript English guy in a grey jacket
  152. # [15:19] <tantekc> and templates for CMSes are written quite often by web designers - e.g. most web designers I know, know enough PHP for example to write and edit templates
  153. # [15:19] <tantekc> thus the statement "you already know HTML" still applies - as that applies to nearly all web designers
  154. # [15:19] <tantekc> and very few web designers know vCard or other formats
  155. # [15:20] <tantekc> (RSS being one possible exception - many web designers know some amount/kind of RSS)
  156. # [15:21] <georgebrock> tantekc / tobyink: I think it's a question of audience, perhaps we need a page for publishers, a page for developers (who create the tools for the publishers), a page for designers, etc?
  157. # [15:21] <tantekc> I'm not sure about that
  158. # [15:21] <tantekc> developers should be able to understand anything written for designers
  159. # [15:22] <tantekc> the core audience we should/are targetting are people that know how to write at least a little HTML
  160. # [15:22] <markng> "publishers" is a very broad term that covers alot of sins, too
  161. # [15:22] <tantekc> which is the vast majority of people who do any kind of work on the web
  162. # [15:22] <tantekc> including people who do bits of markup in their MySpace, or add hyperlinks to comments on systems like Flickr etc.
  163. # [15:23] * Atamido wonders if anyone in Austin will ever get around to making a meetup.
  164. # [15:23] <tantekc> Atamido - what's stopping you from taking the initiative?
  165. # [15:23] * Atamido is too lazy. :P
  166. # [15:23] <markng> clearly ;)
  167. # [15:24] <Atamido> I'm only motivated in irregular and unpredictable spurts.
  168. # [15:24] <tantekc> all it takes is one more geek interested in microformats, and you can create a meetup, wiki/upcoming/pownce/tweet it, and people will show up
  169. # [15:24] <Atamido> Oh, and I hate people. :P
  170. # [15:24] <tantekc> ah, that presents a challenge
  171. # [15:24] <Atamido> And crowds, noise, etc.
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  173. # [15:25] <Atamido> That's why IRC is nice, if it gets too loud, I just close my eyes.
  174. # [15:25] <tantekc> tobyink a statement like "some CMS hCards are crappy", while may be an opinion I agree with, is not particularly constructive/useful. Better would be to note on the wiki entries for each CMS (start with http://microformats.org/wiki/cms ) what the specific flaws are with each implementation
  175. # [15:27] <Atamido> Hmmm...
  176. # [15:27] <Atamido> I wonder if I could turn Chatzilla usernames into hCards.
  177. # [15:28] <markng> should be not be targetting people who can't write HTML, too ?
  178. # [15:28] <markng> my selfish target market being journalists.
  179. # [15:29] <markng> these people have large amounts of the data, after all
  180. # [15:39] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=28689 * Tantek * (+455) add url subproperty to hentry
  181. # [15:39] <tantekc> markng - what does it mean to target people who can't write HTML?
  182. # [15:40] <markng> tantekc: to get people who don't actually write HTML (who use various CMS editors) to indicate, for example, that that set of words is a person
  183. # [15:40] <tantekc> for those folks, we need two things:
  184. # [15:41] <tantekc> 1. a page document tools they can use that support "automatically" publishing microformats
  185. # [15:41] <tantekc> 2. encouragement of more people to create such tools
  186. # [15:41] <tantekc> I've started to write-up a bit of both of those here: http://microformats.org/wiki/cms
  187. # [15:41] <tantekc> would appreciate your input
  188. # [15:42] <tantekc> the class of folks who can't write HTML on their own I'm referring to most often as just "users"
  189. # [15:42] <tantekc> and not just "can't" but don't want to bother
  190. # [15:42] <tantekc> so all of us are "users" a lot of the time
  191. # [15:43] <markng> so, here's the question - should the tools we create try to automatically capture things like people and events using things like opencalais, and then present the results to the user for confirmation, or should they require manual intervention
  192. # [15:43] <tantekc> thus even explaining what software/tools/sites to install (if necessary) and use in order to make use of microformats is a good thing
  193. # [15:43] <tantekc> they should be much easier/simpler than that
  194. # [15:43] <tantekc> anything that requires the kind of interaction that opencalais does and/or manual intervention (other than filling a form like using hCard creator) is too much
  195. # [15:44] <markng> I'd like something along the lines of "select text, click button to indicate that that's a person".
  196. # [15:45] <markng> obviously, that only gives us an fn value though
  197. # [15:45] <tantekc> that's ok, even that is an excellent start. add a new section on "authoring tools" on http://microformats.org/wiki/user-interface and add your suggestion!
  198. # [15:46] <markng> I think I may just build it, instead.
  199. # [15:46] <markng> :)
  200. # [15:46] <markng> adding now.
  201. # [15:46] <tantekc> always capture the idea before building it!
  202. # [15:46] <tantekc> :)
  203. # [15:48] <Atamido> If you note someone as a person and fill in the fn, then you could always present a list of previously filling in information with matching fn for the user to select.
  204. # [15:49] <markng> are there any examples of authoring tools already around ?
  205. # [15:49] <tantekc> Atamido - good suggestion, please add that to markng's edits to /wiki/user-interface :)
  206. # [15:49] <tantekc> markng - TinyMCE plugins exist for adding hCards and hCalendar events
  207. # [15:49] <tantekc> see http://microformats.org/wiki/wordpress
  208. # [15:50] <markng> http://www.undergroundwebdesigns.com/tinyMCE-hcard-plugin.html ?
  209. # [15:52] <Atamido> Of course, that would require some sort of database just to hold contact information.
  210. # [15:52] <Atamido> Possibly polling the CMS's internal user database too.
  211. # [15:53] <Atamido> It's bee a while since I checked, is there any way to associate two hCards on a page that each contain different pieces of data about the same person?
  212. # [15:55] <mfbot> [[articles]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=articles&diff=0&oldid=28690 * Tantek * (+1321) switch use of hCalendar to markup articles to hAtom to markup articles, add recent articles from Emily P. Lewis
  213. # [15:55] <mfbot> [[user-interface]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=user-interface&diff=0&oldid=28691 * MarkNg * (+635) Add authoring tools.
  214. # [15:55] <mfbot> [[rel]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel&diff=0&oldid=28692 * Tantek * (+458) added articles section with an article on rel
  215. # [15:56] <mfbot> [[rel]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel&diff=0&oldid=28693 * Tantek * (+82) link to general articles page
  216. # [15:56] <markng> bah, I don't edit wikis enough :P
  217. # [15:56] <mfbot> [[user-interface]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=user-interface&diff=0&oldid=28694 * MarkNg * (+6) make that a list.
  218. # [15:56] <mfbot> [[rel]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel&diff=0&oldid=28695 * Tantek * (+13)
  219. # [16:05] <tobyink> Atamido: the way I tend to associate multiple hCards for the same person is to give them identical UID properties.
  220. # [16:05] <mfbot> [[benefits]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=benefits&diff=0&oldid=28696 * GeorgeBrock * (+57) added an h1 and a toc
  221. # [16:06] <tobyink> It would be nice if that pattern were implemented more widely.
  222. # [16:06] <@tantek> tobyink, I agree, url+uid is a pattern we need to promote more
  223. # [16:06] <@tantek> the representative-hcard work helps here
  224. # [16:06] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard
  225. # [16:07] <tobyink> the problem with URL+UID is it says, say, "http://tobyinkster.co.uk/" represents me.
  226. # [16:07] <tobyink> then later on, I say that I am the creator of "http://tobyinkster.co.uk/"
  227. # [16:07] <tobyink> and thus conclude that I am my own mother.
  228. # [16:09] <tobyink> using the same string (URL) to represent a person and a website is asking for trouble, though that's not to say that the principle of having identifying strings for people is bad.
  229. # [16:10] <georgebrock> I think there's also something in the hcard examples about URL+UID representing OpenID URLs...
  230. # [16:10] <markng> what about fragment identifiers ?
  231. # [16:10] <georgebrock> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#Canonical_Profiles_on_Sites - nm, it says "could represent" not "does represent" :)
  232. # [16:10] <markng> or did you guys already go down that path ?
  233. # [16:11] <tantekc> tobyink - with all due respect, the url for person vs creator of website discussion is basically a waste of theoretical semantic discussion time
  234. # [16:11] <tantekc> in practice this is not a problem
  235. # [16:11] <tobyink> fragment identifiers are not useful for linking two hcards on the same page - for saying they represent the same person - because ID has to be unique on the page
  236. # [16:12] <markng> oh, sorry, I thought you meant for identification of which card on the page you need to use
  237. # [16:12] <tobyink> tantekc: actually in practice is has proved a problem for me
  238. # [16:12] <tantekc> georgebrock - yes, that's from a bit over a year ago. that thinking helped develop representative hcard which is newer
  239. # [16:13] <markng> though in that case, you can just use classes to group hcards to a person
  240. # [16:13] <tantekc> tobyink - in practice it's a problem only when you have an overdesigned model/format like FOAF.
  241. # [16:13] <markng> and it's a valid use of class, too
  242. # [16:13] <tobyink> so i had to stop using UID as an identifier for people. (or a bare UID anyway)
  243. # [16:13] <tantekc> tobyink - URLs for people works fine for Google's SG API
  244. # [16:14] <tantekc> so you may need to solve a different problem
  245. # [16:14] <tobyink> google's SG api doesn't attempt to hold data about websites though - just people.
  246. # [16:15] <tobyink> if you want to hold information about both, then you need to know what an identifier represents.
  247. # [16:15] <tobyink> context is not always enough
  248. # [16:15] <tantekc> I've yet to see real world examples of this problem - all the ones I've seen are theoretical/hypothetical, or artificially constructed (I've had this discussion years ago with danbri - we agreed to disagree).
  249. # [16:16] <tantekc> and frankly, we've gotten a lot done with the assertion people are URLs
  250. # [16:16] <tantekc> which would seem to disprove the "it's a problem" folks
  251. # [16:16] <tobyink> as I said, I have no problem with the concept of people=urls
  252. # [16:16] <tantekc> ah ok
  253. # [16:16] <tobyink> Just that using the same URL to represent both a person and a URL is a recipe for disaster.
  254. # [16:17] <tobyink> (in a context where you need to store information on both people and URLs)
  255. # [16:17] <tantekc> no it's simply multityping/classing or inheritance - doesn't really matter how you model the overloading.
  256. # [16:17] <tobyink> but knowing which class is meant requires context, which is not always available.
  257. # [16:18] <tantekc> URLs are always URLs.
  258. # [16:18] <tantekc> URLs are sometimes people.
  259. # [16:18] <tobyink> e.g. export all the information you know about "http://tobyinkster.co.uk" - does that mean export all the information about the person or the website.
  260. # [16:18] <tantekc> I don't see the problem.
  261. # [16:18] <tantekc> both
  262. # [16:18] <tobyink> URLs are always URLs; URLs are sometimes people; URLs are sometimes websites. I have a URL, what is it?
  263. # [16:18] <tantekc> and any calendar events present there
  264. # [16:19] <tantekc> and any social network via XFN there
  265. # [16:19] <tantekc> etc.
  266. # [16:19] <tantekc> all = all
  267. # [16:19] <tantekc> if it has a representative hCard, it's a person
  268. # [16:19] <tantekc> it may also be a website, but that's irrelevant
  269. # [16:20] <tobyink> You still end up with "Toby Inkster" created <http://tobyinkster.co.uk/> ; <http://tobyinkster.co.uk/> represents "Toby Inkster" ; thus Toby Inkster was his own creator.
  270. # [16:20] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples&diff=0&oldid=28697 * Tantek * (+133) Canonical Profiles on Sites - has been developed into [[representative-hcard]].
  271. # [16:21] <tantekc> tobyink - indeed, that's not far from the truth. we decide on our actions, we are defined (created) by our actions.
  272. # [16:22] <tantekc> your code has simply arrived at a fairly good philosophical conclusion.
  273. # [16:22] <tantekc> we each construct (create) our own image
  274. # [16:23] <mfbot> [[search]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/search * Tantek * (+28)
  275. # [16:25] <tobyink> I suppose. Who created me depends on your definition of "me". I physically existed before I was consious, so I couldn't have created my physical self, but what I have become is a product of much more than that. But philosophy aside, I still see UID+URL as a problem.
  276. # [16:25] <tobyink> PS: Did you enjoy Bill's in Brighton?
  277. # [16:26] <tobyink> I live a few minutes away from their other branch.
  278. # [16:26] <mfbot> [[search-engines]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=search-engines&diff=0&oldid=28698 * Tantek * (+300)
  279. # [16:29] <@tantek> yes, Bill's in Brighton was excellent!
  280. # [16:29] <markng> I've been meaning to get to Bills for a while
  281. # [16:30] <mfbot> [[geo]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=28699 * Tantek * (+79) TOC, comment out broken image
  282. # [16:30] <tobyink> i always get their daily milkshake special, which never fails to delight.
  283. # [16:31] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.52)
  284. # [16:32] <mfbot> [[adr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr&diff=0&oldid=28700 * Tantek * (+60)
  285. # [16:32] <markng> tobyink: where are you based ?
  286. # [16:32] <tobyink> lewes, sussex. just googled you: to bills from dorset?!
  287. # [16:33] <tobyink> moomoos, dorcester does good milkshakes too. not as good as bill's though.
  288. # [16:33] <markng> tobyink: I spend alot of time in Brighton. Quite a few of my clients are there, and alot of cool geek events (and, for that matter, cool geeks !) are, too.
  289. # [16:34] <tantekc> tobyink, perhaps publish some hCards (maybe even hReviews "does good milkshakes") for those venues
  290. # [16:34] <markng> tobyink: actually, when I was working with Future Platforms, I commuted from Bournemouth to Brighton every day for three months ! :P
  291. # [16:35] <tobyink> ouch! car or train?
  292. # [16:35] <markng> tobyink: I'll get to moomoos next time I'm in dorchester :)
  293. # [16:35] <markng> tobyink: a bit of both. If I got up early enough for the train, I'd get the train. If not, I'd drive.
  294. # [16:35] <@tantek> tonyink - I was just in Brighton and am now in London - sorry to miss you. would have been good to meet up.
  295. # [16:36] <tobyink> yes, I'd hoped to get to BarCamp, but it clashed with my sister's birthday.
  296. # [16:36] <tobyink> sounds like it was good though.
  297. # [16:36] <markng> tobyink: indeed t was
  298. # [16:37] <markng> it
  299. # [16:37] <tobyink> markng: east<->west trains can't have been fun. they're never any good.
  300. # [16:38] <markng> tobyink: better than trains to London. The bournemouth <-> southampton wasn't bad, as long as you *caught it*, as it was only once an hour.
  301. # [16:38] <markng> sorry
  302. # [16:38] <markng> I mean
  303. # [16:38] <markng> brighton <-> southampton
  304. # [16:38] <markng> and I always got a seat, and I could work for a couple of hours. The patchy 3G reception was the annoying bit
  305. # [16:40] <tobyink> trains to/from London, and generally north<->south, tend to be more frequent and more reliable than east<->west in my experience though, even if they are a bit more crowded.
  306. # [16:40] <markng> tobyink: in my experience, more frequent, but less reliable and *MUCH* more crowded.
  307. # [16:42] <tobyink> luckily, I don't have to travel in to the office very often, but when I do it's 2.5 hours each way: half the time to get into central london, and then the other hour and a bit to get out again (because I want to go to outer london)
  308. # [16:42] <csarven> tantek tobyink et al: For scoping issues with rel="license" (not being locally bound) have class="license" been looked into?
  309. # [16:43] <@tantek> csarven - see http://microformats.org/wiki/licensing
  310. # [16:43] <@tantek> search, research, before brainstorming ;)
  311. # [16:43] <tobyink> class=license solves the problem temorarily, but pushes the work onto future standards.
  312. # [16:44] <tobyink> we'd define class=license for, say, figure and hAudio, but then any future standards that wanted to make use of it would have problems.
  313. # [16:44] <@tantek> tobyink - without pointing to a precise brainstorming proposal, stating "solves the problem" even "temporarily" is not accurate.
  314. # [16:44] <tobyink> though mfo/hroot could solve that.
  315. # [16:47] <singpolyma> how often will a publisher want content on a page to be licensed different from the whole page?
  316. # [16:49] <tobyink> licensing a photo under a different licence from the main content? quite frequently. say someone finds a CC-BY-licensed photo and re-uses it on their FDL-licensed page... that is legitimate re-use.
  317. # [16:49] <singpolyma> mmm, ok, makes sense
  318. # [16:50] <tobyink> in fact, i stumbled upon the rel-license scoping issue mostly by accident creating just such a page.
  319. # [16:51] <tobyink> http://buzzword.org.uk/2008/audio/uf - audio is under BY-NC-ND, but page is under BY-SA.
  320. # [16:52] <tantekc> singpolyma please see http://microformats.org/wiki/licensing - that question any many others related are covered.
  321. # [16:52] <csarven> tantek The problem is that we don't (to my knowledge) currently have a way to bound values locally. HTML doesn't have a mechanism for this AFAIK. rel="license" for instance is for the whole document as opposed to a particular part.
  322. # [16:53] * Quits: pfefferle (n=pfefferl@p4FDAD87F.dip.t-dialin.net)
  323. # [16:53] <tantekc> csarven - that's the problem that http://microformats.org/wiki/licensing is seeking to solve - like I said, please read that.
  324. # [16:53] <tobyink> HTML 4.01 does not have a way of scoping rel. XHTML+RDFa 1.0 does.
  325. # [16:53] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p4188-ipbf6103marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  326. # [16:53] <tantekc> HTML4.01 allows for scoping of rel
  327. # [16:54] <tantekc> rel-tag is scoped for example
  328. # [16:54] <tantekc> and used as such in hCard, hCalendar, hReview etc.
  329. # [16:54] <tantekc> hAtom of course
  330. # [16:54] <tobyink> but for any tag within an hCard, that tag also is applied to the page as a whole.
  331. # [16:54] <tantekc> no
  332. # [16:54] <tantekc> per hCard, it applies to hCard
  333. # [16:55] <tantekc> that hCard
  334. # [16:56] <tobyink> but a rel-tag parser which doesn't know about hcard doesn't know that.
  335. # [16:56] <tantekc> there's no such thing as a simple rel-tag parser
  336. # [16:56] <tantekc> rel-tag makes sense within a context
  337. # [16:57] <singpolyma> Hmm... no current real world examples, but Google or someone could decide to let one search pages by tag
  338. # [16:57] <singpolyma> the context becomes "web page" for them
  339. # [16:57] <tantekc> the context is determined by the spec referencing rel-tag
  340. # [16:57] <tantekc> e.g. hCard, hCalendar, hReview, hAtom etc
  341. # [16:57] <csarven> So then, we don't have a problem with rel-license because "license" is not a recognised HTML 4 link type.
  342. # [16:58] <tantekc> so no, implementers do not get to decide what the context of rel-tag is
  343. # [16:58] <tantekc> no rel-license is different
  344. # [16:58] <tantekc> rel-license was introduced with the specific context of the page
  345. # [16:58] <tobyink> http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-faq#What_about_Scope.3F
  346. # [16:58] <tantekc> the two specs (rel-tag, rel-license) differ in this regard
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  348. # [17:00] <csarven> Wouldn't it be simpler to adjust that such that rel-license can be used locally like rel-tag?
  349. # [17:00] <@tantek> csarven - yes, it would be, but that wouldn't be backward compatible.
  350. # [17:00] <tobyink> this would break virtually all existing implementations of rel-tag.
  351. # [17:00] <@tantek> XFN is similarly defined to be page/URL context.
  352. # [17:00] <@tantek> tobyink - not true
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  355. # [17:01] <@tantek> it would break virtually none of the existing implementations of rel-tag
  356. # [17:01] <csarven> I don't think so. If the existing rel-license is used for the whole document then generalisation of that is safe. It would have been a problem if it was the other way around.
  357. # [17:01] <tobyink> sorry - i meant s/rel-tag/rel-license/
  358. # [17:01] <@tantek> tobyink agreed
  359. # [17:02] <tobyink> see http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2008-August/001737.html
  360. # [17:02] <singpolyma> http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Scope seems to imply one may use rel-tag for a whole page
  361. # [17:02] <@tantek> anyway, csarven read the /wiki/licensing page, licensing-examples, licensing-formats, and licensing-brainstorming if you really want to discuss this problem in depth
  362. # [17:02] <csarven> I thought we were.
  363. # [17:02] <@tantek> otherwise you'll just end up walking repeating what's already on the wiki
  364. # [17:06] <tobyink> I think now that RDFa has reached candidate recommendation, /wiki/licensing has a much bigger hurdle to clear to prove that it solves an actual problem. The ccREL document ticks off all the 80% requirements. (Though I know some people around here dislike RDFa.)
  365. # [17:10] <csarven> rel-license for the whole document (general). rel-license scoped (specific). I fail to see how if moved from general to specific becomes backwards incompatible.
  366. # [17:11] <csarven> It wouldn't have been backwards compatible if we went from specific to general.
  367. # [17:12] <tobyink> older implementations (of which there are many) would see the specific and assume it to be general. thus they'd assume that the whole page is licensed under the same license as a small part of it is. which may not be true. and may have legal consequences.
  368. # [17:12] <tobyink> see http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2008-August/001737.html
  369. # [17:14] <tantekc> tobyink - RDFa is still a non-starter to many/most developing on the web due to reliance on namespaces. thus microformats will continue to solve 80% problems for the vast majority of those developing/authoring for the web.
  370. # [17:14] <tantekc> RDFa is a good place to experiment with new ideas for schemas/verticals though
  371. # [17:14] <tantekc> and certainly any efforts in RDFa or other formats should be researched and document in *-formats wiki pages when looking into a new format.
  372. # [17:15] <tantekc> a new *microformat*
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  374. # [17:23] <csarven> Gar. Good point tobyink.
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  376. # [17:44] <mfbot> [[events/2008-09-05-dconstruct-social-network-portability]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-09-05-dconstruct-social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=28701 * Tantek * (+78) Related Articles/Blogs - added YDN UK summary post
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  378. # [17:51] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=28702 * Tantek * (+148) protect the community - hCard examples in the wild repaired and reorganized for better usability and accessibility, need to fix hCalendar next and add more conf schedule examples
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  385. # [19:05] <mfbot> [[haudio-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=haudio-issues&diff=0&oldid=28703 * WebOrganics * (-853) Removed support for hitle, as beyond the scope of this format at this time, added FULL support to "FN" (without reservations) why make it difficult?
  386. # [19:07] <mfbot> [[haudio-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=haudio-issues&diff=0&oldid=28704 * WebOrganics * (+128) D2: 2008-01-10 hAudio Title was Overloading "fn". -
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  400. # [21:43] <mfbot> [[hcard-supporting-user-profiles]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles&diff=0&oldid=28705 * Tretti * (+273) All services with hCard profiles -
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  402. # [21:52] <mfbot> [[hcard-supporting-user-profiles]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles&diff=0&oldid=28706 * Tretti * (+123) All services with hCard profiles -
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  414. # [23:11] * Parts: pat-in-wv (n=pat-in-w@dpc693595205.direcpc.com)
  415. # [23:14] * Quits: singpoly1a (n=singpoly@216.16.242.254) ("Lost terminal")
  416. # [23:25] * Quits: renke2 (n=user@Lf189.l.pppool.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  417. # [23:28] * Quits: Hey_neken (n=kaxero@215.Red-213-96-129.staticIP.rima-tde.net) ("Hortik galduta")
  418. # [23:29] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=28707 * Tretti * (+320) stuckUnstuck -
  419. # [23:29] * Joins: BenWard (n=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-693c6854e345628c)
  420. # [23:29] * ChanServ sets mode: +o BenWard
  421. # [23:30] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=28708 * Tretti * (-321) sorry, it's no implementation
  422. # [23:39] <mfbot> [[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists&diff=0&oldid=28709 * Tretti * (+358) Services with XFN supporting friends lists -
  423. # Session Close: Thu Sep 11 00:00:00 2008

The end :)