/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2008-10-02 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  17. # [02:54] <quik__> hey folks
  18. # [02:54] <quik__> looking for a good cheat sheet for the whole hcard spec?
  19. # [02:54] <quik__> I want to represent a company government number..
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  23. # [03:06] <pjkix> quik__: i think there are a few MF cheatsheets around, a few are linked in the wiki
  24. # [03:06] <quik__> pjkix: any idea for the tax / gov number?
  25. # [03:07] <pjkix> sounds like a pretty specific need, not sure if its in the current specs
  26. # [03:07] <pjkix> at least not that i know of
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  56. # [10:19] <mfbot> [[haudio-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=haudio-issues&diff=0&oldid=29717 * MartinMcEvoy * (-3753) removing issues D7, D8 and D9 Only I have issues with this
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  81. # [14:29] <wacky_1> hey :)) what's the meaning of the 'h' before the hCalendar et hCard MFs ?
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  84. # [14:35] <wacky_1> tantek: what was the 'h' for, in front of Calendar and Card ?
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  106. # [16:56] <mfbot> [[articles]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=articles&diff=0&oldid=29718 * EmilyLewis * (+556) 2008 -
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  114. # [18:04] <mfbot> [[recipe-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-issues&diff=0&oldid=29719 * CiaranMc * (+332) Comments on units issues
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  131. # [18:30] <@tantek> wacky_1, hCard and hCalendar are the *H*TML versions of vCard and iCalendar, hence the replacement of the leading lowercase v or i with h.
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  141. # [18:42] <mfbot> [[validators]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=validators&diff=0&oldid=29720 * Tantek * (+450) added a few minor additions from past FAQ on subject of validation
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  152. # [18:51] <mfbot> [[faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=29721 * Tantek * (-282) added FAQ about what the leading h is for for hCard and hCalendar, update validators question, depersonalized format status, added examples-in-wild documentation suggestion to new format answer
  153. # [18:52] <@tantek> wacky_1 in response to your private message asking about proposing a new microformat, see: http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q._I_would_like_to_author_a_new_microformats_open_standards_specification_for_my_site.2Fbusiness.__How_do_I_get_started.3F
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  162. # [19:39] <wacky_1> ok thanks :)
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  164. # [19:48] <wacky_1> tantek: why the requirement to personally use a micro-format everywhere ? Is that supposed to influence how a new microformat is good or bad for the world ?
  165. # [20:16] * wacky_1 is now known as wacky__
  166. # [20:18] <@tantek> because without using existing microformats, you lack some of the necessary experience and wisdom to successfully create a new microformat.
  167. # [20:21] <@tantek> also, as the above-linked FAQ says: From that experience you will then be able to figure out what is left to be specified. Otherwise it is too hard to approach the "whole problem".
  168. # [20:21] <wacky__> yeah, I understand..
  169. # [20:22] <@tantek> wacky_ what is your website?
  170. # [20:22] <wacky__> it's just that I understand most of the things, I just don't have that many websites full of vcards, hcards, hcalendar to be :)
  171. # [20:22] <@tantek> if you haven't used microformats on your websites then you can't "understand most of the things"
  172. # [20:22] <@tantek> some understanding is only gained through real world use and experience.
  173. # [20:26] <wacky__> I'm implemented some hCalendar stuff on a yet-to-be-released website, I've tweaked with hCards, but assuming I don't understand because I don't have some websites show it off is a bit weird, isn't it ? :P
  174. # [20:27] <@tantek> pretty much every website has an about section with contact info that should be marked up as hCard
  175. # [20:27] <@tantek> it is a good assumption as it is made from experience
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  177. # [20:27] <wacky__> *blush* :P
  178. # [20:27] <@tantek> those who think they understand but don't have real world sites with microformats have pretty much never actually understood
  179. # [20:28] <wacky__> maybe you can tell if I have suffucient experience with a rough spec. I've come up with ?
  180. # [20:28] <@tantek> no that's usually a waste of time as well
  181. # [20:28] <@tantek> specs without real world experience beforehand are not worth the time
  182. # [20:28] <@tantek> do you have your own website?
  183. # [20:29] <wacky__> http://www.bourget.cc
  184. # [20:29] <wacky__> but it's an old php website..
  185. # [20:30] <wacky__> but.. still, if you're curious: http://pastebin.ca/1217122
  186. # [20:31] <@tantek> even something like the Copyright &copy; 2005 - Alexandre Bourget in the footer of your site could/should be marked up with an <address> hCard
  187. # [20:32] <@tantek> also, you may want to consider making your site valid: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://ip.bourget.cc:8080/
  188. # [20:33] <@tantek> if you don't take the time to add microformats to your site, why should/would anyone else take the time to add your microformat proposal to their site?
  189. # [20:33] <wacky__> because it'd be useful to them and to others
  190. # [20:33] <wacky__> whereas my site is an old piece of junk :P and I'll probably take it offline before I revamp it
  191. # [20:34] <wacky__> I have hCard support on http://www.vigilia.info but it's an internal tool
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  193. # [20:36] <wacky__> ok :P so you really aren't curious :P
  194. # [20:36] <@tantek> that's the problem - because you haven't implemented microformats in real world sites, you don't have sufficient experience to know what would be "useful ... to others". this is why such experience is a requirement.
  195. # [20:38] <@tantek> about once a month or so people propose microformats who either have no or haven't shown any real world experience, and rarely are those proposals even worth the time to read. so no, from experience, there is insufficient curiosity to merit the time to read proposals without sufficient experience.
  196. # [20:39] <wacky__> ok, I understand..
  197. # [20:41] <wacky__> Do you guys try to standarize (X)HTML-only microformats ?
  198. # [20:44] <@tantek> there's no such thing as non-(X)HTML microformats, see: http://microformats.org/wiki/what-are-microformats
  199. # [20:51] <wacky__> Microformats are simple conventions for embedding semantics in HTML to enable decentralized development.
  200. # [20:52] <wacky__> in human-readable (X)HTML/XML documents, Atom/RSS feeds, and "plain" XML
  201. # [20:53] <wacky__> ok.. so microformats are XML/(X)HTML only
  202. # [20:54] <wacky__> and you're not interested in anything else ?
  203. # [20:57] <singpolyma> What do you mean by "anything else"? Nothing else falls inside scope.
  204. # [20:58] <singpolyma> Also, on real world exp, your pastebin states: "#"
  205. # [20:58] <singpolyma> The author is aware that some other microformats are pending that deal with
  206. # [20:58] <singpolyma> #
  207. # [20:58] <singpolyma> parts of this specification or overlaps certain area
  208. # [20:58] <wacky__> there aren't many standardisation bodies that do what you do, try to push for small open standards on the web...
  209. # [20:58] <singpolyma> overlaps are the sort of thing real world exp helps avoid
  210. # [20:59] <wacky__> singpolyma: I'm talking about the code-formats in the Wiki, but it's the code formats tries to do too much..
  211. # [20:59] <singpolyma> wacky__: Your pastebin describes something that overlaps very nearly to <code> + rel-tag
  212. # [21:00] <wacky__> singpolyma: ok, let me check
  213. # [21:01] <wacky__> singpolyma: by the "anything else", I mean that "SNIPPET:" format (inspired by AsciiDoc)..
  214. # [21:02] <wacky__> no one will standardize on how you write an e-mail, really :P so I though microformats.org would fit best
  215. # [21:02] <wacky__> the rel-tag isn't what I want.. since it's not necessarily a link..
  216. # [21:02] <singpolyma> text-based standards are more the purview of IETF
  217. # [21:02] <wacky__> someone in an e-mail isn't going to put some links there, and most of the time, there won't be any links, the rel-tag doesn't really apply here.. and <code> itself it way too broad.
  218. # [21:03] <wacky__> You can't say there's a concise example whenever you see a <code> block..
  219. # [21:03] <singpolyma> You can say that it is source code. Which is all that can really be useful in a general way.
  220. # [21:03] <wacky__> singpolyma: are you aware of any such standardisation, of some "common" methods to write an mail ?
  221. # [21:04] <wacky__> singpolyma: sometimes, snippets are going to be (like in the pastebin) config files examples, you might use <code> or not..
  222. # [21:04] <wacky__> but for sure <code> doesn't convey enough semantics for the purpose here..
  223. # [21:04] <singpolyma> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3676.txt
  224. # [21:05] <singpolyma> What is the purpose here?
  225. # [21:06] <wacky__> to have means to search for clear, concise, self-contained examples
  226. # [21:06] <wacky__> what I see, is for example, having the documentation of the "iptables" project, and let's say, it's mailing list, crawled by some webbot, and taking out all the examples that were given
  227. # [21:07] <singpolyma> That doesn't sound particularly useful... such examples only make sense in the context of their threads
  228. # [21:07] <singpolyma> Anyway, such a format is *definitely* out of scope for Microformats
  229. # [21:07] <wacky__> centralize them, and use the "snippet" keyword as a new (which isn't true, there are already many snippets websites) way to search for code examples
  230. # [21:07] <wacky__> even the HTML-based one, you think ?
  231. # [21:08] <singpolyma> The "HTML-based one" overlaps existing work considerably and does not solve a real-world problem
  232. # [21:09] <wacky__> hmm,.. it does for programmers, sysadmins, anyone searching for ready-made code
  233. # [21:09] <singpolyma> code.google.com handles that
  234. # [21:10] <wacky__> somehow..
  235. # [21:10] <wacky__> code.google.com will dump you *all* the source code for some projects.. which is okay..
  236. # [21:11] <wacky__> but not really what you'd expect when you're searching for a particular feature demonstration
  237. # [21:11] <wacky__> and it searches code.. not config files examples, which is really useful to sysadmins...
  238. # [21:12] <singpolyma> Perhaps you are looking to create a resource for such then. I do not see a use case for publishing arbitrary code and marking it "useful example".
  239. # [21:13] <wacky__> that,s what would happen if we based only on <code> .. which isn,t what we want
  240. # [21:13] <wacky__> we want people to high-light in their documentation, or on their blogs, or on forums, or in mailing lists, what *is* an actual "useful example"
  241. # [21:14] <wacky__> but we need a standard way to do that.. .. we need a microformat :P
  242. # [21:16] <singpolyma> but those examples are not useful out of context
  243. # [21:17] <wacky__> first, the crawler keeps track of the context (and save backlinks)
  244. # [21:18] <wacky__> second, we want people to write a simple description, and have it self-contained, thus useful out of context (if taken from a forum, or a mailing list)
  245. # [21:19] <wacky__> people would know that the Snippet is supposed to be self-contained (I'll probably have to specify that in the spec. though)
  246. # [21:21] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-755060e06a263bbb)
  247. # [21:29] <wacky__> you think I should just trash the idea ? :P
  248. # [21:33] * Quits: Hey_neken (n=kaxero@215.Red-213-96-129.staticIP.rima-tde.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  249. # [21:33] <renke2> it is not likely that people adopt it, actually
  250. # [21:36] * Joins: cacimar (n=drapetom@cpe-66-25-185-22.austin.res.rr.com)
  251. # [21:37] <wacky__> what do you see stopping it ?
  252. # [21:39] * Joins: Hey_neken (n=kaxero@215.Red-213-96-129.staticIP.rima-tde.net)
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  257. # [22:48] * Parts: philippeback (n=IceChat7@ip-62-235-202-77.dsl.scarlet.be)
  258. # [23:10] <mfbot> [[validators]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=validators&diff=0&oldid=29722 * TobyInk * (+237) hCard - Cognition's EARL errors/warnings.
  259. # [23:12] * Quits: singpolyma (n=singpoly@216.16.242.254) ("Lost terminal")
  260. # [23:23] * Quits: @tantek (n=tantek@pool-71-105-211-125.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  261. # [23:44] <wacky__> ok thanks for all your insights guys
  262. # [23:44] * Parts: wacky__ (n=abourget@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net)
  263. # Session Close: Fri Oct 03 00:00:00 2008

The end :)