/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2008-11-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 18 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:01] * Joins: mefisto (n=mef`@zelli-kojas.lanet.lv)
  4. # [00:06] <@tantek> BenWard, as you've been doing cleaning, you've probably noticed that the Revert links appear to be missing
  5. # [00:06] <@tantek> e.g. when you click a "diff" link from Recent changes
  6. # [00:07] <@BenWard> Yeah, I thought something was odd there
  7. # [00:07] <@BenWard> Um, need to check the MediaWiki change log to work out what they've done there
  8. # [00:07] <@tantek> oh wait
  9. # [00:08] <@tantek> it lost my login somehow
  10. # [00:08] <@tantek> and then I logged back in
  11. # [00:08] <@tantek> found the "rollback" links
  12. # [00:08] <@tantek> but now it says you do not have permission because there seems to be a problem with your login session
  13. # [00:08] <@tantek> odd
  14. # [00:12] <@tantek> problem only happens in Firefox
  15. # [00:12] <@tantek> seems to work in Safari
  16. # [00:12] <@tantek> very odd
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  18. # [00:13] <@BenWard> Wierd. I've used it a few times today (in Safari), so it should work I think. Seems to be the ‘new’ revert, certainly.
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  20. # [00:21] <KevinMarks> OpenCalais has some remarkable epic fails on parsing tantek.com
  21. # [00:21] * Quits: singpolyma (n=singpoly@216.16.242.254) ("Lost terminal")
  22. # [00:21] <KevinMarks> http://semanticproxy.com/demo.html
  23. # [00:21] <KevinMarks> Diggnation party
  24. # [00:21] <KevinMarks> organizationtype: 
  25. # [00:21] <KevinMarks> political party
  26. # [00:22] <KevinMarks> Person Political
  27. # [00:22] <KevinMarks> person: Sean Bonner
  28. # [00:22] <KevinMarks> position: King
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  31. # [00:39] <@tantek> KevinMarks, does it claim to parse microformats?
  32. # [00:39] <@tantek> if so, perhaps add it to http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations and note issues in a nested list-item please!
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  34. # [00:48] <@tantek> tomorrow night's dinner posted! http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2008-11-11-sf-weekly-meetup-dinner
  35. # [00:55] <@BenWard> That's last week's, Tantek :)
  36. # [00:55] <@BenWard> http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2008-11-18-sf-weekly-meetup-dinner
  37. # [00:55] <KevinMarks> no, but it claims to generate microfromats
  38. # [00:56] <@tantek> ah thanks Ben Ward!
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  40. # [00:56] <KevinMarks> it seems to work by grepping plaintext for words in Capital Letters
  41. # [00:56] <@tantek> wow that's a pretty dumb entity extraction heuristic
  42. # [00:58] <KevinMarks> I'm being mean, but finding "King Sean Bonner" as a monarch from Ryan King Sean Bonner ...
  43. # [00:58] <@tantek> that's quite humorous
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  46. # [01:04] <KevinMarks> it's designed for parsing news stories, so feeding it a CNET one I had, it does find some people and org's and makes them rather odd-looking hcards: http://service.semanticproxy.com/processurl/x8nzmewt7bnxrnpz9sbqyxzh/microformat/http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10097124-2.html
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  78. # [09:39] <@tantek> hello, does anyone know who User:AmeerDawood is on the wiki? he seems to have over-corrected en-gb to en-us spellings of Centre vs. Center
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  103. # [14:40] <Atamido> tantek: British people can spell? :P
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  138. # [18:29] <gsnedders> hCalender anh iCal disagree on date form. iCal must have the ISO 8601 calender date in basic form (e.g., 20081118), whereas hCalender allows any ISO 8601 date, and all the examples use the extended form
  139. # [18:30] <gsnedders> s/hcalender/hCalendar/ig
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  144. # [19:04] <gsnedders> It seems unclear what the hCard for experience is in hResume
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  146. # [19:09] <gsnedders> Wait, it's clear in the schema but not the field detials
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  159. # [20:40] <@tantek> Atamido, no, the overcorrection was the changing of proper nouns (names of places etc.) which should use their native spelling.
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  163. # [20:41] <@tantek> gsnedders that difference between hCalendar and iCalendar is handled by converters. hCalendar is more author friendly than iCalendar in a manner that is trivially deterministically converted if necessary.
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  165. # [20:42] <@tantek> gsnedders, feel free to note any problems you find with hResume on the /wiki/hresume-issues page
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  168. # [20:53] <gsnedders> tantek: The difference is undocumented though, it just says that hCal is just a serialization of iCal, and then silently changes it
  169. # [20:54] <@tantek> where does it say that hCal is just a serialization of iCal ?
  170. # [20:56] <gsnedders> tantek: I'd say it was implied by "The basic format of hCalendar is to use iCalendar object/property names in lower-case for class names, and to map the nesting of iCalendar objects directly into nested XHTML elements."
  171. # [20:56] <@tantek> gsnedders, it's not like whitespace handling is the same either
  172. # [20:56] <@tantek> it's kinda silly to assume that syntax details like that are identical across two different context formats
  173. # [20:56] <@tantek> so no, I disagree that it is implied
  174. # [20:58] <gsnedders> Both are defined, in this case, to be ISO 8601 dates, just in iCal's case a subset thereof. Allowing all forms in hCal seems silly
  175. # [20:58] <gsnedders> Then parsers have to cope with all three forms of date
  176. # [20:59] <gsnedders> (Instead of the one allowed in iCal.)
  177. # [20:59] <@tantek> authors are more important that parsers
  178. # [20:59] <@tantek> disallowing it in iCal was silly
  179. # [20:59] <gsnedders> How many authors want to use week or ordinal dates?
  180. # [21:00] <@tantek> many authors use whole dates without times
  181. # [21:00] <@tantek> that was the use case that drove that decision
  182. # [21:00] <@tantek> whereas iCal requires fully specifying the datetime to seconds
  183. # [21:00] <@tantek> which is silly, because authors don't do that
  184. # [21:01] <@tantek> gsnedders, I'm very surprised to hear you arguing from the "optimize for parsers/parsing" viewpoint, as that's a common trap
  185. # [21:01] <@tantek> that leads to bad (author unfriendly) design
  186. # [21:01] <gsnedders> I'm not per-se arguing that, I'm just wemtioning that as a side effect
  187. # [21:02] <gsnedders> Calendar dates are fine. I see no reason to allow week/ordinal dates.
  188. # [21:03] <gsnedders> I'd be tempted to somewhat ruthlessly apply the 80/20 rule here, and disallow week/ordinal dates, which allow nothing that can't be given as a calendar date
  189. # [21:03] <@tantek> introducing limitations like that makes it harder for authors to keep track, whereas "ISO8601 dates are valid" is easier to remember.
  190. # [21:03] <gsnedders> How about RFC 3339?
  191. # [21:03] <@tantek> the benefit from excluding that portion is less than the cost of doing so
  192. # [21:04] <@tantek> IIRC RFC3339 also requires seconds to be specified on datetimes, which is also silly, given authors rarely do that.
  193. # [21:04] <@tantek> same problem with Atom (difference in hAtom)
  194. # [21:05] <gsnedders> Yeah, it does.
  195. # [21:05] <gsnedders> A bigger question: what constitutes an ISO 8601 date?
  196. # [21:05] <gsnedders> IIRC all three forms require an exact day
  197. # [21:06] <gsnedders> So 2008-11 wouldn't be a date
  198. # [21:07] <@tantek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
  199. # [21:08] <gsnedders> "time point representing a calendar day on a time scale consisting of an origin and a succession of calendar days"
  200. # [21:09] <gsnedders> That's a date according to ISO 8601:2004 section 2.1.8
  201. # [21:10] <@tantek> btw - mentioning "parsers have to cope with..." implies an underlying assertion of optimizing for parsers, and propagating that value assumption is perhaps as bad as making it oneself, perhaps worse. Try to train yourself to not bother even mentioning it as a side-effect, otherwise you will imply it as an objective.
  202. # [21:11] <gsnedders> I tend not to be so clear on IRC (or in any sync form of communication)
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  204. # [21:37] <singpolyma> On "parsers have to cope with", most parsers are written in languages where handling of most common date formats is as simple as Time.parse or strtotime
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  207. # [22:25] <gsnedders> There is no way to have an indefinite end in hCal, which is problematic for hResume for a job that still exists
  208. # [22:34] <@tantek> gsnedders, already noted in http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-issues - feel free add your support/voice as well
  209. # [22:34] <csarven> gsnedders Although not the best solution, for now, I put a date that's far ahead in the future (e.g., 2049) to represent a position that I'm currenly in.
  210. # [22:34] <@tantek> csarven, perhaps consider adding your workaround to that issue on the wiki
  211. # [22:35] <csarven> I was just going to :)
  212. # [22:35] <gsnedders> The best alternative at first glance would be to include an alternative for "present", i.e., today's date
  213. # [22:40] <@tantek> gsnedders - consider adding your suggested alternative to the issue on the wiki as well.
  214. # [22:40] * gsnedders wonders if he even has a wiki account
  215. # [22:41] <csarven> Updated.
  216. # [22:41] <gsnedders> Is it bad that I'm caring as much about the markup of my CV as the content?
  217. # [22:46] <csarven> gsnedders I don't think so. Perhaps if you ask a non-geek, they will say yes :)
  218. # [22:46] <csarven> It took me a while to capture my CV in hResume but after that it is *very* easy to carry on
  219. # [22:47] <gsnedders> I don't _have_ a CV to capture :)
  220. # [22:47] <csarven> If at all useful, you can try to resuse mine. I've done quite a bit of tests on it with mkaply from Operator, and Google Reader just to see what happens to it.
  221. # [22:47] <csarven> http
  222. # [22:48] * gsnedders has been bullied (by Opera employees) into applying for a summur intership there
  223. # [22:48] <csarven> http://csarven.ca/cv
  224. # [22:48] <csarven> Congrats!
  225. # [22:49] <gsnedders> *summer
  226. # [22:49] <gsnedders> There again, WikeSmith was predicting I'd get hired by them
  227. # [22:49] <gsnedders> *MikeSmith
  228. # [22:50] <csarven> And BTW, I said 2049-12-31 in the Wiki because that's the date Google Calendar can handle up to
  229. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Simply because so many people in W3C WGs are from Opera, and as a percentage of their total employees, it's unusually high amount involved
  230. # [22:55] <gsnedders> I mean, 16 year old kids nowadays!
  231. # [22:55] <gsnedders> Arguing over standards!
  232. # [22:55] <gsnedders> They should be out playing football.
  233. # [23:03] * Joins: surial (n=surial@ip545054ce.speed.planet.nl)
  234. # [23:03] <surial> Is it normal to put XFN data inside an hCard?
  235. # [23:03] <surial> Something like: <a href="http://joesmith.com/" class="url" rel="friend met">Joe is my friend</a>?
  236. # [23:03] <surial> or does class="url" sort of come with the implication that its rel="me" even if not explicitly stated?
  237. # [23:05] <@tantek> surial, see: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#hCard_and_XFN
  238. # [23:06] <surial> ah. That brings clarity.
  239. # [23:08] <surial> Would it make sense for any given hCard to contain multiple url fields, where each field contains different XFN tags?
  240. # [23:08] <surial> The intent seems to be that, no, that doesn't make much sense.
  241. # [23:18] * Quits: csarven (i=nevrasc@univcomm-allison-gm606-37.Concordia.CA) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  242. # [23:58] * Quits: surial (n=surial@ip545054ce.speed.planet.nl) ("moooo!")
  243. # Session Close: Wed Nov 19 00:00:00 2008

The end :)