/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2009-01-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 13 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:02] <mfbot> BenWard edited irc '/* Communicating */ Swapped old em/strong formatting of communication instructions for kbd/samp elements (now the wiki supports them).' http://is.gd/fBf3
  4. # [00:06] <mfbot> BenWard edited irc '/* Mac */ Alphabetised Mac client list, added 'Linkinus.app'' http://is.gd/fBgR
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  6. # [00:13] <mfbot> Kavi edited aggregate-review-brainstorming '/* Discussion */ ' http://is.gd/fBkD
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  8. # [00:22] <mfbot> Csarven edited presentations '/* 2009 */ ' http://is.gd/fBpc
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  21. # [02:16] <mfbot> hello world!
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  40. # [04:00] <mfbot> Tantek edited Main Page 'minor cap tweak' http://is.gd/fCXO
  41. # [04:00] <@tantek> Thank you mfbot!
  42. # [04:00] <@tantek> And thanks kingryan for bringing mfbot back to the room. :)
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  45. # [04:00] <@tantek> hey benward - any thoughts on a dinner meetup in SF tomorrow night?
  46. # [04:02] <@benward> Yes. Forgot to events for it but we agreed either 21a or Naan and Curry at the end of last weeks event
  47. # [04:02] <@tantek> oh great. either works for me.
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  49. # [04:05] <@tantek> I think Naan and Curry on in lower Haight right?
  50. # [04:06] <@tantek> oh wait - did you mean Naan N' Chutney ?
  51. # [04:06] <@tantek> if so, I'll add a +1 for that option.
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  54. # [04:14] <@benward> No, Naan and Curry, in Soma
  55. # [04:14] <@benward> Matthew Levine's suggestion
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  102. # [12:44] <uMut> hello
  103. # [12:44] <uMut> have a nice day everyone
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  133. # [17:34] <DanC> does linkedin do hResume?
  134. # [17:37] <DanC> ooh... it seems to... I see <div class="hresume"> in http://www.linkedin.com/in/connollydan
  135. # [17:37] * DanC hunts for hResume-consuming tools...
  136. # [17:56] <tobyink> DanC: linkedin.com has done hResume for quite some time but they've recently broken it by putting all these sill <script> elements in.
  137. # [17:57] <DanC> hResume doesn't allow <script>?
  138. # [18:01] <tobyink> It does, but they have <span class="title"><script>document.write(...)</script></span> for job titles.
  139. # [18:01] <tobyink> :-(
  140. # [18:01] <tobyink> As of about a month or so ago.
  141. # [18:02] <tobyink> I assume it's some anti-spider thing.
  142. # [18:02] <DanC> ew.
  143. # [18:03] <DanC> the whole point of hResume is to facilitate sharing. kinda hard to reconcile that with anti-spider policies
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  146. # [18:13] <tobyink> I do wonder if I had anything to do with it. I pretty much perfected parsing their CVs and then sent an example N3 conversion to Steve Ganz. A couple of weeks later, it's <script> everywhere!
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  153. # [18:36] <@tantek> I wonder if it is semantically ok to use <blockquote> to indicate something *to* be quoted rather than a quote itself.
  154. # [18:36] <@tantek> probably not, as it is a bit of an inversion of the specific expected semantic (like what would the cite attribute point to? a permalink for the quote?)
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  156. # [18:39] <@tantek> ah I think <kbd> makes the most sense for this case
  157. # [18:39] <@tantek> tags for someone to copy / paste into another UI
  158. # [18:39] <@tantek> "Indicates text to be entered by the user."
  159. # [18:39] <@tantek> per http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.1
  160. # [18:39] <gsnedders> kbd seems possibly right under HTML 4.01
  161. # [18:40] <gsnedders> There again, with 4.01 blockquote may be fine too :P
  162. # [18:40] <gsnedders> tantek: I'd say it depended what you were trying to have as the content
  163. # [18:41] <@tantek> the more I think about it, the more I lean towards blockquote only being for things you are quoting from somewhere else
  164. # [18:41] <@tantek> the "to be quoted" or "quotable" semantic doesn't really exist
  165. # [18:41] <gsnedders> HTML 5 is absolute about it having to be quoted from somewhere else
  166. # [18:41] <@tantek> would make a useful complement to blockquote though
  167. # [18:41] <gsnedders> (i.e., if it isn't quoted, the document is non-conforming)
  168. # [18:42] <@tantek> hmm... mfbot seems to be gone, and no kingryan either
  169. # [18:42] <gsnedders> kbd is the wrong semantic, but the only thing anywhere near
  170. # [18:42] <@tantek> why is it wrong?
  171. # [18:43] <gsnedders> quoting something isn't the same as entering something, IMO
  172. # [18:43] * DanC wonders how gsnedders knows what tantek's use case is
  173. # [18:43] <@tantek> ah right. kbd is NOT the complement/inverse of blockquote
  174. # [18:43] <@tantek> but kbd does work for the use case that I needed: http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2009-01-13-weekly-dinner-sf#Tags
  175. # [18:43] <@tantek> for indicating a chunk of text that the user should copy / paste into some other interface
  176. # [18:44] <DanC> yes, "Use the following tags" matches <kbd>
  177. # [18:44] <gsnedders> Yeah, for that it's right
  178. # [18:44] * gsnedders was meaning that statement in general
  179. # [18:44] <@tantek> I've never seen anyone use kbd like that before though
  180. # [18:44] <gsnedders> DanC: And don't you know I can read minds? :)
  181. # [18:44] <@tantek> so perhaps this is another POSH pattern
  182. # [18:44] <@tantek> use <kbd> to markup suggested tags for an event
  183. # [18:45] <DanC> well, wonders never cease, gsnedders .
  184. # [18:45] <gsnedders> tantek: s/for an event//
  185. # [18:45] <@tantek> I presumed gsnedders was arguing against kbd as complement to blockquote, not against kbd for my particular use case (which he didn't know at the time)
  186. # [18:45] <@tantek> gsnedders, right
  187. # [18:46] <gsnedders> Otherwise the statement is more specific than it needs to be
  188. # [18:46] <gsnedders> (And yeah, as I said above, I was meaning in general)
  189. # [18:46] <@tantek> the phrase elements are sadly underused
  190. # [18:47] <gsnedders> I've used kbd maybe once
  191. # [18:47] <DanC> I'm not sure it's cost-effective to train the community to use more than <em>, <tt>, and <b>
  192. # [18:47] <gsnedders> DanC: Why em in that list and not i?
  193. # [18:47] <@tantek> cost-effective?
  194. # [18:47] <DanC> there are only 3 buttons on all the rich text editing doodads out there
  195. # [18:48] <@tantek> broken UIs are no excuse for ignoring or abandoning semantic practices
  196. # [18:48] <DanC> there's a cost to having obscure stuff in the HTML specs
  197. # [18:48] <gsnedders> What do you gain if 99% of people don't use the semantics?
  198. # [18:48] <@tantek> that sounds like an HTML5 argument
  199. # [18:49] <DanC> I'd say <em>, <tt>, and <strong>, but <strong> is so much longer than <b> and I doubt the bytes/keystrokes are worthwhile.
  200. # [18:49] <@tantek> often times 1% of the people create 99% of the change
  201. # [18:49] <@tantek> so reasoning by "99% of people don't use"... can be flawed reasoning
  202. # [18:49] <DanC> 1% of the HTML marketplace is a *lot*, gsnedders .
  203. # [18:49] <gsnedders> DanC: I am well aware — I was arguing that myself a few days ago
  204. # [18:50] <@tantek> anyway, not sure of the point of the argument. kbd is in HTML4 so may as well use it properly.
  205. # [18:50] <gsnedders> There probably is a cut off after which semantics shouldn't be added: certainly less than 1%, though
  206. # [18:51] <@tantek> gsnedders, based on what design methodology / reasoning?
  207. # [18:51] <DanC> maybe I'll elaborate on the argument in another medium.
  208. # [18:52] <gsnedders> tantek: Anything that needs the semantics will have to imply them in most content anyway, so there is no gain from having them explicitly, and the added cost of implementing them.
  209. # [18:52] <@tantek> and DanC, gsnedders, this is why the microformats process requires documentation of real world *examples* of *content* being published on the *web* that would fit the semantics that people want to propose.
  210. # [18:53] <@tantek> gsnedders, false. that argument would mean no markup was ever necessary and we would all be using wiki-like text documents
  211. # [18:54] <@tantek> trying to argue/create semantics purely philosophically like that is less likely to succeed than sampling the data of the marketplace (content published) and modeling accordingly (most popular semantics first)
  212. # [18:56] <@tantek> hence why so many (like most) invented semantics / XML namespaces / RDF vocabularies are largely ignored
  213. # [18:56] <@tantek> human expressed semantics are not math nor philosophy. much closer to science and modeling the natural world.
  214. # [18:57] * gsnedders thinks tantek is missing what he is arguing, but doesn't think IRC is a very good medium for this
  215. # [18:57] <gsnedders> (I do agree with all of what you just said, pretty much)
  216. # [18:59] <@tantek> most markup/format folks that I encounter don't. they treat semantics/formats like a math problem, to be theoretically solved, and solved 100% (or close to it). whereas I disagree on both counts.
  217. # [18:59] <gsnedders> It never can be solved for 100% of cases
  218. # [18:59] <@tantek> I largely blame the XML sales pitch for this. use XML, make up your own tags, model your data exactly precisely as you want to!
  219. # [19:00] <@tantek> gsnedders, that doesn't stop people from expending a tremendous amount of time/energy in trying to hit 100% of close to it.
  220. # [19:00] <gsnedders> tantek: Yeah, totally.
  221. # [19:01] <@tantek> ironically web designers don't make this mistake, but rather web programmers do.
  222. # [19:01] <gsnedders> Half the problem with most of those attempts just become stupidly unusably complex
  223. # [19:01] <@tantek> I think programming typically teaches you to think more like a mathematician than a scientist.
  224. # [19:02] <@tantek> and while you may be able to write perfect code that does exactly what it should with inputs and outputs, there is no such thing with human/computer interfaces, which is what markup really is. it's an interface between human semantics and computer data models.
  225. # [19:02] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  226. # [19:04] <gsnedders> (My main point was that you will never get all semantics explicitly marked (though they may exist implicitly in the natural language), and that the first reaction at finding a missing semantic shouldn't be to add it, for fear of ending up with something vast and unusable.)
  227. # [19:05] <@tantek> gsnedders, strawman. no one claimed "get all semantics explicit" was a goal. therefore your presentation of it as such, and argument against, is simply a strawman argument.
  228. # [19:06] <@tantek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
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  241. # [20:22] <mfbot> hello world!
  242. # [20:33] <@tantek> welcome back mfbot
  243. # [20:33] <@tantek> anybody know how to include <input> markup on a mediawiki page?
  244. # [20:34] <@kingryan> escaped or rendered?
  245. # [20:34] <@tantek> rendered
  246. # [20:34] <@kingryan> in a form?
  247. # [20:34] <@tantek> not the easiest to thing to websearch/google for (tried)
  248. # [20:35] <@tantek> for easier copy/pasting out of, e.g. the way Youtube does embed copy/paste text
  249. # [20:35] <@tantek> code
  250. # [20:35] <@kingryan> yeah
  251. # [20:35] <@kingryan> nowiki doesn't help
  252. # [20:35] <@kingryan> it might be possible to add this to an extension
  253. # [20:35] <@tantek> it's like <abbr> markup used to not work without an extension
  254. # [20:36] * @tantek wonders why there isn't just an <html> extension to mediawiki
  255. # [20:36] <@tantek> for dropping in arbitrary HTML markup into a mediawiki page
  256. # [20:36] <@tantek> without having it escaped or wiki-code-parsed
  257. # [20:36] <@kingryan> i have a feeling that stuff like input isn't supported for 'security reasons'
  258. # [20:36] <@kingryan> and an html island would bypass that
  259. # [20:37] <@tantek> that sounds like a probable explanation
  260. # [20:51] <mfbot> Tantek edited events 'add regular events section, fix a couple of multivalued class attributes, simplify documentation, remove self-evident documentation for greater information density' http://is.gd/fKej
  261. # [20:52] <@tantek> kingryan, e.g. the webcal: link here http://microformats.org/wiki/events
  262. # [20:52] <@tantek> I'd like to put that in a readonly select-all-onfocus input
  263. # [20:52] <@tantek> for ease of one click to select, then copy/paste
  264. # [20:53] <@tantek> though I suppose it would be even better to support webcal: links
  265. # [20:53] <@tantek> or an input box for the tags here for the same reason: http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2009-01-13-weekly-dinner-sf#Tags
  266. # [20:54] <@tantek> make it easier to copy
  267. # [20:57] <@kingryan> tantek: i think i understand the use case
  268. # [20:58] <@kingryan> unf our best solution is probably a mediawiki extension
  269. # [20:58] <@kingryan> perhaps benward could help with that
  270. # [21:00] <@tantek> yeah. looking at existing extensions, InputBox looks close but appears to "do too much"
  271. # [21:00] <@tantek> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Inputbox
  272. # [21:05] <mfbot> Tantek edited weekly-meetup '/* Other Cities */ add Kansas City / Dan Connolly' http://is.gd/fKpO
  273. # [21:06] <@tantek> kingryan, out of curiosity, why the URL shortening rather than the actual diff URL?
  274. # [21:07] <@tantek> also, character count omission deliberate? (just noticing differences from prev mfbot)
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  278. # [21:09] * Atamido__ is now known as Atamido
  279. # [21:10] <mfbot> Tantek edited weekly-meetup 'move entry title to top, link organize' http://is.gd/fKt1
  280. # [21:11] <@tantek> DanC, per your tweet re KC lunch: http://microformats.org/wiki/weekly-meetup#Other_Cities
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  282. # [21:16] <mfbot> Tantek edited events 'fix upcoming.org link' http://is.gd/fKxk
  283. # [21:21] <mfbot> Tantek edited events 'rm nonfunctional __NOTOC__' http://is.gd/fKBb
  284. # [21:21] <DanC> thanks, tantek
  285. # [21:27] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  286. # [21:33] <@kingryan> i used the shorter urls because the long version doesn't seem that informative to me (whatever information is there, is already present in mfbot's message)
  287. # [21:33] <@kingryan> and the short versions are more aesthetically pleasing
  288. # [21:34] <@kingryan> and I left the character counts out because it was more important to get it running that to put the character counts in
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  291. # [21:38] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  292. # [21:38] * ChanServ sets mode: +o tantek
  293. # [21:39] <@tantek> yeah makes sense
  294. # [21:39] <@tantek> character counts can be a useful indicator of accidental mistakes, e.g. large negative values (sometimes with bad browsers / connections, submitted content gets cut off)
  295. # [21:39] <@tantek> or spam
  296. # [21:41] <@kingryan> yeah, probably worth adding them
  297. # [21:41] <mfbot> Tantek edited advocacy 'h1 to entry-title' http://is.gd/fKPz
  298. # [21:44] <mfbot> Tantek edited cms-advocacy 'add Semantic MediaWiki Calendar format - need hCalendar support' http://is.gd/fKR5
  299. # [21:44] <mfbot> Tantek edited cms-advocacy 'h1 to entry-title' http://is.gd/fKRv
  300. # [21:44] <@tantek> wondering if BenWard considering simply treating <h1> at top of page as <entry-title>
  301. # [21:46] <@tantek> feels like two steps backwards to a) change/introduce syntax for what appears to be the same semantic, and b) thus require a change to many existing pages
  302. # [21:46] <@kingryan> i don't think that was possible
  303. # [21:46] * Quits: mfbot (n=mfbot@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  304. # [21:46] <@kingryan> but you'd have to ask him
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  306. # [21:46] <mfbot> hello world!
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  309. # [21:47] <mfbot> hello world!
  310. # [21:47] <mfbot> RyanKing edited mfbot 'delta test' (+6) http://is.gd/fKU3
  311. # [21:47] <@kingryan> tantek ^
  312. # [21:49] <mfbot> Tantek edited mfbot 'test negatives' (-6) http://is.gd/fKV1
  313. # [21:49] <@tantek> awesome
  314. # [21:50] <@kingryan> i'm currently running the bot off my laptop, so it's only going to be online when I am for now
  315. # [21:50] <@kingryan> but that should change this evening
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  317. # [21:56] <@tantek> heh
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  331. # [23:08] <@tantek> kingryan, what do you think of the potential fragility of URL shortening services in comparison to the convenience / lessnoise of shorter URLs? e.g. http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/tr.im
  332. # [23:13] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  339. # [23:46] * DanC has a bad feeling about putting the shortening services in the critical path
  340. # [23:46] <DanC> for mfbot it's prolly ok
  341. # [23:48] <benward_> Ryan and I felt that shortening them would make the notifications less obtrusive
  342. # [23:49] <benward_> Certainly it limits their permanence, though.
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  344. # [23:50] <benward_> Might be worth seeing if there's a unique id for the edit that can be appended if someone ever wanted to crossreference a notifcation with the wiki history
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  346. # Session Close: Wed Jan 14 00:00:00 2009

The end :)