/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2009-06-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 04 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:02] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-class-pattern "/* Implementations */ Optimus implements value-title" (+156) http://is.gd/NwmB
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  8. # [00:18] <mfbot> Tantek edited internationalization "noted see also [[en-us-faq]] and [[minimal-vocabulary]] principle, and [[value-class-pattern]] solved remaining internationalization issues, cleaned up references a bit" (+880) http://is.gd/Nx26
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  11. # [00:24] <mfbot> Tantek edited minimal-vocabulary "more precisely named the "renaming anti-pattern" (unintendedirony)" (+146) http://is.gd/Nxet
  12. # [00:27] <mfbot> Tantek edited en-us-faq "added see also section and several inline references, numbered additional answers" (+697) http://is.gd/NxkV
  13. # [00:27] <mfbot> Tantek edited en-us-faq "no need to see also the current page" (-16) http://is.gd/Nxmm
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  16. # [00:39] <mfbot> Tantek edited en-us-faq "missing </blockquote>" (+13) http://is.gd/NxOV
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  19. # [01:18] <mfbot> Tantek edited Template:issues-format "changed use of hCalendar to hAtom, as issues are not really human level "events" that are attended etc., displaying them on a calendar doesn't make any sense. but reading them as a feed makes sense." (+139) http://is.gd/Nzj1
  20. # [01:21] <mfbot> Tantek edited hcard-issues-resolved "/* resolved issues */ resolve 2008 hCard issues, fix User:: links to be User: links." (+25123) http://is.gd/NzoE
  21. # [01:22] <@benward> tantek: Note that each wiki entry is already marked up as hAtom, so you need to ensure that each issues list has a surrounding <div class=hfeed> to segregate it
  22. # [01:23] <@tantek> is such segregation necessary?
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  24. # [01:24] <@tantek> I mean if you "subscribe" to a page - wouldn't it be nice to get the updates of individual items of that page?
  25. # [01:24] <@benward> Fair enough
  26. # [01:24] <@benward> Erm, what do parses do with nested hAtom at present?
  27. # [01:24] <@tantek> or is this just a case where we need to specify what happens with nested hentry elements?
  28. # [01:25] <@tantek> I'm thinking it might be better to allow nested hentry elements to be part of the same (possibly implied) hfeed - since explicit containment can always be done with intervening hfeed markup
  29. # [01:28] <mfbot> Tantek edited hcard-issues-resolved "make unique headings for each year for closed vs resolved, tweak new page(s) notes wording for better clarity" (+63) http://is.gd/NzFS
  30. # [01:29] <mfbot> Tantek edited hcard-issues-resolved "fix another errant User:: link" (-1) http://is.gd/NzI2
  31. # [01:29] <@benward> Yes. But do parsers currently treat nested hentries as opaque blocks? Or will entry-title in a nested hatom override the entry-title of the main entry?
  32. # [01:30] <@benward> They _should_ be opaque blocks
  33. # [01:30] <singpolyma> Seems like defining behaviours for nested hAtom based on the wiki's needs is a bit not awesome
  34. # [01:30] <@tantek> agreed they _should_ be opaque blocks
  35. # [01:30] <@benward> But as it stands, this is undefined new behaviour
  36. # [01:30] <@tantek> Benward, perhaps you can add that to http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues
  37. # [01:30] <singpolyma> Making them opaque blocks is hard, I expect many do not
  38. # [01:30] <@tantek> with a proposed resolution
  39. # [01:30] <@benward> singpolyma: Yes, I fully expect it's not been implemented that way.
  40. # [01:31] <@tantek> singpolyma hCard parsers already do this with AGENT
  41. # [01:31] <@benward> tantek: Err… some of them do.
  42. # [01:31] <@tantek> the ones that don't should be noted as such in http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implementations
  43. # [01:32] <@tantek> and with that, all currently open outstanding hCard issues have been resolved
  44. # [01:32] <@benward> AGENT was an ignored property for a long time, it used to be actively downplayed within this community because vcard consumers didn't support it. I've no idea what the current support make-up looks like
  45. # [01:32] <singpolyma> Having done a "right" opaque impl of hAtom in ruby for my previous employer, it also slows the parser down a lot with most XML/HTML processors (because you have to search parents to make sure they are not the thing that must be opaque)
  46. # [01:32] <singpolyma> What is AGENT for?
  47. # [01:33] <@benward> They are sub-entities that serve/represent the main vcard
  48. # [01:33] <singpolyma> interesting
  49. # [01:33] <@benward> In business context, the main vcard could be, for example ‘Dana B. Lawyer’
  50. # [01:34] <@tantek> singpolyma - an instance is not a proof of course - there may be better implementations out there that don't have that problem. check out the options at http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers
  51. # [01:34] <@benward> and her vcard contains an AGENT for “Joe Secretary”
  52. # [01:34] <@benward> It is, someone who acts as an ‘agent’ of the main person.
  53. # [01:35] <singpolyma> tantek: sure, I'm willing to conceed that I may just suck at writing XPath :)
  54. # [01:35] <@tantek> singpolyma - since you asked the question "What is AGENT for?" perhaps you could add it and benward's answer to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq
  55. # [01:35] <singpolyma> benward: Interesting...
  56. # [01:35] <singpolyma> tantek: will do
  57. # [01:35] <@tantek> singpolyma - much thanks!
  58. # [01:36] <@benward> Agent has a lot of interesting cases
  59. # [01:37] <@benward> We published one in the blog entry for Google's Rich Snippets. “Google” was the hCard, and the three Rich Snippet developers were AGENTs.
  60. # [01:38] <@benward> It fits into my containers concepting a bit. For example, could you, by default, imply that the organization-name for a listed AGENT is the same as for the parent hCard? Thereby sharing it between them?
  61. # [01:38] <mfbot> Tantek edited hcard-issues "resolved all open issues - see [[hcard-issues-resolved]]." (-24290) http://is.gd/NA2C
  62. # [01:39] <@benward> There are cases where it's not: Your personal assistant could be contracted to you, not to your company, but it's a scenario/content optimization that's interesting to me at present.
  63. # [01:39] <singpolyma> benward: it seems like AGENT is more in line with what XFN is for
  64. # [01:39] <@benward> XFN is about social relationships
  65. # [01:39] <@benward> Agent is an organizational relationship.
  66. # [01:39] <mfbot> Singpolyma edited hcard-faq "What is AGENT?" (+246) http://is.gd/NA5r
  67. # [01:39] <@benward> Or, a representational relationship, rather
  68. # [01:39] <@tantek> benward - I'm not sure that argument is sufficient (social)
  69. # [01:39] <@tantek> as XFN of course has "colleague" and "coworker"
  70. # [01:39] <hober> well, it has co-worker and colleague, seems like agent could fit in
  71. # [01:40] <@benward> Oh, that's true
  72. # [01:40] <@tantek> right hober
  73. # [01:40] <@benward> There's perhaps case for exploring use of AGENT in combination with XFN
  74. # [01:41] <@tantek> XFN is for relationships *across* pages
  75. # [01:41] <@tantek> AGENT and the containment work is for some relationships in the same page
  76. # [01:41] <@tantek> so that's one key difference
  77. # [01:41] <@benward> Here's a jump, but interesting, <a class='agent' rel='co-worker' href='http://mycompany.com/people/james-doe'>James Doe</a>
  78. # [01:42] <@benward> Lots of stuff to document under brainstorming, anyway
  79. # [01:43] <mfbot> Tantek created hcard-issues-closed "drafted" http://is.gd/NAfu
  80. # [01:46] <@tantek> benward, that is interesting. note that that could only work for the representative-hcard for the page, since XFN values are between pages.
  81. # [01:49] <mfbot> Tantek edited hcard-issues-resolved "moved closed issues to [[hcard-issues-closed]], added see also section." (-2279) http://is.gd/NAul
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  86. # [02:05] <mfbot> Tantek edited representative-hcard-issues "resolved all outstanding issues, closed all but one." (+722) http://is.gd/NBfv
  87. # [02:06] <mfbot> Tantek edited Template:issues-format "entry-summary is a better semantic than entry-title for this use" (+2) http://is.gd/NBgr
  88. # [02:06] <mfbot> Tantek edited hcard-issues "/* closed issues */ closed issues" (-2) http://is.gd/NBiy
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  92. # [02:20] <@benward> tantek: I find the entry template a little confusing still. Shouldn't separate issues be filed as separate entries? Rather than multiple issues in a bullet-list?
  93. # [02:25] <@tantek> benward - that's a very good point
  94. # [02:25] <@tantek> and reflects the more common case of one issue per author per day
  95. # [02:26] <@tantek> that makes sense. go ahead and update the issues template to do one entry per issue.
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  99. # [02:56] <mfbot> BenWard edited Template:issues-format "New feed-based template mark-up. One issue per entry. Adding .discussion.issues markup." (+411) http://is.gd/NCUF
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  102. # [02:56] <@benward> Also, tantek, I think this should be moved out of the MediaWiki ‘Template:’ namespace. That's used for the special {{Template:Include}} functionality in pages, but this content is really page content in its own right
  103. # [02:56] <@benward> Propose moving to issue-template?
  104. # [02:56] <@tantek> we (mis)use {{Template::}} a lot like that
  105. # [02:56] <@tantek> for inclusion
  106. # [02:56] <@tantek> e.g. hcard-related-pages
  107. # [02:56] <@benward> Well, that's OK, that's repeat content and it's actually used for inclusion
  108. # [02:56] <@benward> This page is not actually a Template though.
  109. # [02:56] <@tantek> Ok, I'm not quite sure I understand the difference, but that's ok - if it makes sense to you, go ahead, and perhaps you can explain the difference maybe in a new how-to-play guideline to encourage better use of {{Template::}}
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  111. # [02:58] <@benward> I'll note to do that, yes
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  123. # [04:01] <mfbot> Tantek edited minimal-vocabulary "added a grouping section as a reminder to avoid renaming when reusing" (+233) http://is.gd/NFI1
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  125. # [04:15] <mfbot> Tantek created naming principles "redir" http://is.gd/NGhr
  126. # [04:16] <mfbot> Tantek created naming-principles-faq "drafted based on a question left on the naming-principles page" http://is.gd/NGk9
  127. # [04:25] <mfbot> Tantek edited naming-principles "linked to renaming when reusing anti-pattern as example of using new names to mean the same thing, move one issue to an FAQ" (+685) http://is.gd/NGMd
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  145. # [06:34] <mfbot> Csarven edited representative-hcard-parsing "jQuery JavaScript code to extract a representative hCard" (+1964) http://is.gd/NLEr
  146. # [06:37] <mfbot> Csarven edited representative-hcard-parsing "Using jQuery library" (+124) http://is.gd/NLMg
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  152. # [07:08] <mfbot> Csarven edited representative-hcard-parsing "Updated code ~ should be slightly faster since a document is less likely to have class="uid" than class="url"" (-86) http://is.gd/NMGs
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  173. # [10:38] <mfbot> DavidCary edited to-do "/* Chris Messina */ microsyntax?" (+427) http://is.gd/NTHc
  174. # [10:56] <mfbot> TobyInk edited picoformats "add non-service-specific syntaxes" (+244) http://is.gd/NUeY
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  231. # [20:04] <BobJonkman> Do screen readers speak the title= attribute on all elements, or only on <abbr> elements?
  232. # [20:06] <singpolyma> BobJonkman: depends on user settings. Many never read it out at all
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  237. # [20:12] <BobJonkman> singpolyma: thanx. When I JFG'd it I got all sorts of conflicting info. This was interesting: http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/articles/WE05/forms.html
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  239. # [20:23] <@tantek> Bob Jonkman, indeed there is lots of conflicting info about what screen readers will and won't do out there, and most that claim to know, when pressed to provide a specific screen reader application name, version, and operating system, fail to do so.
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  242. # [20:28] <@tantek> members of the microformats and accessibility communities have been documenting at least a list of such tools here: http://microformats.org/wiki/assistive-technology
  243. # [20:31] <@tantek> and using that list, some testing of specific assistive technology has been documented here: http://microformats.org/wiki/assistive-technology-abbr-results
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The end :)