/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2009-06-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 30 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  11. # [00:25] <maddiin> hey there
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  13. # [00:29] <maddiin> I want to use hAtom in a blog, this is what I have done right now http://paste.pocoo.org/show/Ji8j2cc2deZPNCeJPUTf/
  14. # [00:30] <mfbot> Tantek edited mailing-lists "document theoretical examples (explicitly label them as theoretical) rather than ignore to reduce reraising. document on a brainstorming page, where they can be (de)prioritized accordingly." (+563) http://is.gd/1irZL
  15. # [00:30] <maddiin> should I avoid classnames similar to the schema like entry-meta, entry-related, etc. and if so, what would you suggest?
  16. # [00:30] <hober> IIRC I use entry-meta like that
  17. # [00:31] <singpolyma> maddiin: If the classnames aren't in the schema it doesn't really matter if they're "similar"
  18. # [00:31] <maddiin> hober, singpolyma: thanks
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  22. # [00:51] <mfbot> Tantek edited put-it-on-the-wiki "add examples of types of content to add to the wiki and where such content should go." (+2537) http://is.gd/1isXf
  23. # [00:51] <mfbot> Tantek created citations "redir" http://is.gd/1isZ6
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  25. # [00:56] <mfbot> Tantek created listing "draft" http://is.gd/1itci
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  33. # [01:31] <@tantek> hober, your recent tweet/post mentioned the HTML Design Principles http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/, and I can't help but notice many similarities to the (priori art of the) microformats principles http://microformats.org/wiki/principles
  34. # [01:32] <@tantek> many of these principles individually predate microformats as well, however it is interesting that so many microformats principles were incorporated as a set into the HTML Design Principles, e.g.
  35. # [01:33] <@tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#do-not-reinvent-the-wheel is essentially a negative avoidance restatement of "reuse" http://microformats.org/wiki/reuse
  36. # [01:34] <@tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#pave-the-cowpaths is directly quoted from http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats, which cites Adam Rifkin's essay of the same title: http://ifindkarma.typepad.com/relax/2004/12/microformats.html
  37. # [01:35] <@tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#evolution-not-revolution is nearly the same as the quote on http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats "An evolutionary revolution" - a blog post cited by Ryan King: http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/04/07/an-evolutionary-revolution/
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  39. # [01:38] <@tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#solve-real-problems - again as mentioned on http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats , the emphasis on solving *real world* problems has been part of microformats since the presentation that introduced the term "microformat" - "real world semantics" - http://www.tantek.com/presentations/2004etech/realworldsemanticspres.html
  40. # [01:41] <@tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#priority-of-constituencies - (which sounds reasonable) specifically mentions to consider "authors over implementors" which microformats has specifically mentioned as being "publisher-centric in design rather than parser-centric" - http://microformats.org/wiki/principles#lowering-barriers
  41. # [01:43] <@tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#avoid-needless-complexity - again a negative avoidance restatement of "start as simple as possible" as stated on the above-mentioned http://microformats.org/wiki/principles page, and expanded upon in http://microformats.org/wiki/start-simple
  42. # [01:45] <@tantek> much of the microformats principles noted above are barely changed from when they were published on microformats.org at its launch on 2005-06-20: http://microformats.org/about/
  43. # [01:45] <@tantek> which clearly predates by more than 2 years the 2007-11-26 date of http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-html-design-principles-20071126/
  44. # [01:47] <@tantek> thus if I've kept count correctly, that's 6 out of the 16 HTML Design Principles, specifically the subsections (e.g. 2.1,2.2,2.3,2.4,2.5, 3.1 etc.) that very much appear to have originated from microformats principles
  45. # [01:50] <@tantek> hober, the bottom of the HTML Design Principles says "If you contributed to this document, but your name is not listed above please let the editors know so they can correct this omission." - given that many of those authors knew of the microformats principles (I remember personally discussing several of the microformats principles and merits there of with about half dozen of the editors/acknowledged contributors) - it would
  46. # [01:52] <@tantek> hober, does this seem reasonable to you? if so, perhaps you could suggest an effective means of letting "the editors know". thanks!
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  53. # [02:17] <mfbot> BenWard created Template:HTML-design-principles "Draft: HTML Design Principals. We've been directly citing XHTML and XML benefits for years, which is inaccurate given that we actually operate mostly in HTML now. Proposed update to principals." http://is.gd/1ixk7
  54. # [02:18] <mfbot> BenWard edited semantic-xhtml "/* forms */ Fixed mis-nested textarea hierachy" (-1) http://is.gd/1ixmV
  55. # [02:19] <@tantek> BenWard - might I suggest both not using a template for replaced content (since we agreed that was a misuse of template) as well as avoiding calling something "HTML Design Principles" which is already overloaded? (see above in IRC)
  56. # [02:21] <@benward> The use of Template is valid — it gets included by reference in lots of pages, currently: {{Template:xhtml-design-principals}} — so it is a Template (it's not a something that gets cut+pasted+modifed… I guess you could cal that a stencil…)
  57. # [02:22] <@benward> I've created it separately again for drafting, since editing the existing template would also change the content of all referencing pages (hCard, hCalendar, etc.)
  58. # [02:22] <@benward> As for the naming, yes we could change that.
  59. # [02:22] <@tantek> what's the purpose of the (re)drafting?
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  61. # [02:23] <@tantek> (i.e. what problems is being solved)
  62. # [02:23] <@benward> The existing wording advocates and emphasises benefits of XML that are simply not applied to microformats in practice
  63. # [02:25] <@benward> Most microformats are published in HTML. The XML part is distracting/confusing here.
  64. # [02:26] <@tantek> indeed - that's true now. there's a bit of historical context there.
  65. # [02:26] <@benward> Separately, the final design principal instructs people to put data in <abbr>, which isn't worded appropriately given the more recent research/efforts we put into abbr/accessibilty, and the value-class-pattern is also a valid alternate.
  66. # [02:27] <@tantek> back when that was first authored (I think I wrote it up as part of hCard IIRC on the Technorati developers wiki originally), XML was actually expected to be used to publish arbitrary visual information on the web.
  67. # [02:27] <@benward> Indeed.
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  70. # [02:28] <@tantek> given that this template affects hCard and hCalendar and I'm already making similar updates to both deemphasize XML and change abbr references to be value-class-pattern aware, I'd much rather prefer if you captured updating Template:semantic-xhtml-design-principles as an hcard-issue and hcalendar-issue rather than just fixing the template. - it's only one of many areas that needs fixing for those two issue.
  71. # [02:28] <@benward> And at the time there was great evangelical effort behind XHTML over HTML, the latter being used as a term for ‘old’ tag-soup, and ‘XHTML’ a differenciator for ‘new’ semantic XHTML. The new name made it easier to differentiate good/bad new/old practice, and easier to educate.
  72. # [02:29] <@tantek> er, http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues , http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-issues
  73. # [02:29] <@benward> OK, can do.
  74. # [02:30] <@benward> I think, from a document clarify perspective, I favour all of that text being removed from the specs themselves, and just linking to the one appropriate page documenting the design principals separately.
  75. # [02:30] <@tantek> and yeah, agreed, the great differentiating benefits of XHTML over HTML never really materialized.
  76. # [02:30] <@tantek> I tend to agree with that direction, hence have been updating and fleshing out the principles on their own pages quite a bit in the past few weeks.
  77. # [02:31] <@tantek> e.g. http://microformats.org/wiki/principles
  78. # [02:31] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/start-simple
  79. # [02:31] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/reuse
  80. # [02:31] <@tantek> and http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles
  81. # [02:31] <@benward> It would be more manageable for us, and would improve the readability of /hcard and /hcalendar, letting people get to the core content sooner without diversions.
  82. # [02:31] <@tantek> yes, agreed
  83. # [02:32] <@tantek> indeed I did that some time ago for hCard
  84. # [02:33] <@tantek> note that hCard no longer includes that template
  85. # [02:33] <singpolyma> <@tantek> and yeah, agreed, the great differentiating benefits of XHTML over HTML never really materialized.
  86. # [02:33] <@tantek> and the related section is near the end of hCard: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Notes_on_derivation_from_vCard
  87. # [02:33] <singpolyma> Except for the "easier to parse for scrapers" part
  88. # [02:33] * singpolyma <<---- scraper
  89. # [02:33] <@tantek> which itself links to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-design-methodology
  90. # [02:36] <@tantek> BenWard, was there some other aspect improving the readability of /wiki/hcard , letting people get to the core content sooner without diversions not related to Template:semantic-xhtml-design-principles that I missed?
  91. # [02:36] <@benward> tantek Erm, not in this thread no. I intend to do a review of it for you at some point though, with 1.0.1 and 1.1 in sight
  92. # [02:37] <@tantek> ok, cool. appreciated.
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  120. # [05:13] <hober> tantek: yes, that sounds reasonable; I'll ping maciej to that effect
  121. # [05:15] <hober> It's really not at all surprising that there's so much overlap--the principles that overlap are general good design principles for any technology intended for the web
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  155. # [11:25] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* Field details */ typos..." (+36) http://is.gd/1iXix
  156. # [11:30] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* Schema */ removed references to reused microformats" (-284) http://is.gd/1iXvu
  157. # [11:31] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* duration */ " (+42) http://is.gd/1iXxq
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  161. # [12:25] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* author */ " (+0) http://is.gd/1iZJF
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  197. # [16:34] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* Examples */ a lot of details changed and updated" (+577) http://is.gd/1jaVL
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  199. # [16:36] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* nutrition */ typo" (+1) http://is.gd/1jb2P
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  202. # [17:10] <tomlurge> hi! is this the correct way to encode a duration according to hAudio: <abbr class="duration" title="PT1H30M">90 min</abbr> ?
  203. # [17:12] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* duration */ changed the reference from hCalender to hAudio" (+270) http://is.gd/1jcDz
  204. # [17:18] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* duration */ " (-1) http://is.gd/1jcRm
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  207. # [17:22] <tobyink> tomlurge: PT1H30M - yes.
  208. # [17:22] <tobyink> Though PT90M is also acceptable.
  209. # [17:23] <tobyink> Or even PT5400S.
  210. # [17:23] <tomlurge> oh, that's great!
  211. # [17:24] <tobyink> ISO 8601explicitly allows duration units to "overflow", and I don't think anyone's made an attempt at creating a subset of it such that each duration has a single canonical representation.
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  215. # [17:25] <tomlurge> you know so much... :-)
  216. # [17:25] <tobyink> I wrote an ISO 8601 parser for Swignition. There's probably bugs in it, but it mostly works.
  217. # [17:26] <tomlurge> i wonder what made me reuse "type" and "value" from hCard for hRecipe. hCard is such a mess...
  218. # [17:27] <@tantek> tomlurge - what aspects of hCard do you find "a mess"?
  219. # [17:28] <tomlurge> hrecipe says: "The element MAY include the fields value and type following the conventions outlined in hCard." now i'm struggling to find those conventions...
  220. # [17:29] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Value_excerpting
  221. # [17:29] <@tantek> and http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#type_subproperty_values
  222. # [17:29] <@tantek> both found by search the hCard TOC for "value" and "type" respectively
  223. # [17:30] <@tantek> Certainly let me know if you have suggestions for better findability.
  224. # [17:31] <tomlurge> yes, i found it by search too. but first i tried browsing the page, then i tried the TOC, then the element list
  225. # [17:31] <tomlurge> it would be nice to have a description for everey element, ordered by element name, with all the appropriate (non-trivial) information about each element
  226. # [17:32] <tomlurge> like e.g. hRecipe :-)
  227. # [17:32] <@tantek> by "element" you mean "property" right?
  228. # [17:32] <tomlurge> yes
  229. # [17:32] <@tantek> like hReview :) http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview#Format
  230. # [17:33] <tomlurge> even better :-)
  231. # [17:34] <@tantek> microformats spec conventions definitely evolved with subsequent specs, in particular with specs that introduced new vocabulary (e.g. hReview)
  232. # [17:35] <tomlurge> i just imagined a poor idealistic user trying to follow all the links i carelessly added for best practices. i'm trying to inline the appropriate parts now and just realized how hard that is
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  238. # [17:44] <mfbot> Tantek edited to-do "hCard 1.0.1 property descriptions, include any non-trivial details, next step, draft hCard 1.0.1 from hCard 1.0, incorporating resolved issues, similarly for hCalendar" (+905) http://is.gd/1je1W
  239. # [17:45] <@tantek> Thanks tomlurge, I've added this asnt: pecific to-do item for hCard 1.0.1 so that it is not forgotten.
  240. # [17:45] <tomlurge> you're welcome ;-)
  241. # [17:46] <tomlurge> native speakers, please: does the following make sense: "The element {{must}} follow the conventions outlined in [[hCard]]. Using only text will fulfill these requirements just fine." ?
  242. # [17:47] <@tantek> tomlurge - the convention for "element" vs. "property" is that "element" is used *only* for HTML elements, e.g. <a>, <span>, <div>
  243. # [17:47] <@tantek> whereas microformats use "property"
  244. # [17:47] <@tantek> I hope that helps
  245. # [17:48] <tomlurge> ah... okay. but i meant the second sentence
  246. # [17:48] <tomlurge> (btw: hReview uses "field")
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  248. # [17:49] <tobyink> possibly - "Using only text will fulfill these requirements just fine." -> "Plain text fulfils these requirements."
  249. # [17:50] <@tantek> tomlurge - yes that's a good point, no need to use a second term there in hReview - and I can very much respect that use of a second term may add confusion to non-native speakers
  250. # [17:51] <tomlurge> i'm looking for a phrase with the connotation: "in most cases you won't need anything more than plain text and therefor you don't have to bother with that messy hCard spec. just use plain text only, right?!"
  251. # [17:53] <tomlurge> okay, i'll go with tobyink
  252. # [17:53] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* fn */ modified reference to hCard" (+40) http://is.gd/1jesW
  253. # [17:54] <@tantek> tomlurge, unless otherwise specified, a property is just text.
  254. # [17:55] <@tantek> e.g. - again, take a look at hReview
  255. # [17:56] <tomlurge> but a little note may safe the innocent goodintentioned implementor a painful search.... it's just a convenience :-)
  256. # [17:57] <@tantek> tomlurge - I disagree - stating "fulfils these requirements" over and over will add clutter and crowd out the key information which is just "text"
  257. # [17:57] <@tantek> it's not convenience - it actually adds "mess" as you put it
  258. # [17:58] <tomlurge> maybe you're right. but let me try first
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  260. # [18:06] <mfbot> Tantek edited hreview "replace use of "field" by "property" when the spec means property, reduce confusion by reducing the number of terms that are used to mean the same thing, remove a note which contradicted scope" (-32) http://is.gd/1jeX0
  261. # [18:07] <@tantek> tomlurge - per your point, I've removed the unnecessary use of the term "field" from hReview, and used the term "property" consistently - I would appreciate it if you could check it as a non-native en-speaker to see if that helps. http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview
  262. # [18:07] <tomlurge> i'm just doing the same for hRecipe
  263. # [18:09] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hreview "/* property details */ typo" (+0) http://is.gd/1jf6z
  264. # [18:10] <tomlurge> tantek: looks good to me
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  266. # [18:13] <mfbot> Tantek edited hreview "move design principles just before References - most readers will not need to re-analyze how it was designed, and listing the properties sooner helps spec readability." (+172) http://is.gd/1jfhM
  267. # [18:13] <@tantek> thanks tomlurge
  268. # [18:15] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "changed "element" and "field" to "property" (where appropriate)" (+96) http://is.gd/1jfms
  269. # [18:16] <mfbot> Tantek edited hreview "remove explicit TOC (auto-placement works fine), moved acknowledgments to end near references to move property list to sooner in the document" (-11) http://is.gd/1jfqa
  270. # [18:17] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* ingredient */ arg" (+2) http://is.gd/1jfqQ
  271. # [18:25] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* photo */ removed superfluous link to hCard" (-34) http://is.gd/1jfLP
  272. # [18:29] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* summary */ added: Plain text fulfills these requirements." (+40) http://is.gd/1jfSg
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  274. # [18:34] <tomlurge> tobyink, tantek: does the following make sense and is correct??? "* The contents of the element {{may}} be a plain text string which any conforming parser should interpret as "vcard fn". Anything more elaborate {{must}} follow the conventions outlined in [[hAtom]].
  275. # [18:35] <tomlurge> (about "author")
  276. # [18:35] <tobyink> Seems sensible to me.
  277. # [18:37] <tomlurge> great! thanks
  278. # [18:39] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* author */ added default type "vcard fn"" (+117) http://is.gd/1jgim
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  280. # [18:44] <@tantek> tomlurge - the author conventions in hAtom have some issues right now, e.g. with improper use of the HTML <address> element
  281. # [18:44] <@tantek> (yes this has been captured in hatom-issues )
  282. # [18:44] <tomlurge> aha. any better idea?
  283. # [18:45] <@tantek> using the term "author" is good in this case for vocabulary reuse
  284. # [18:45] <@tantek> however, we should avoid propagating a known issue from hAtom
  285. # [18:46] <tomlurge> what if i link to hCard directly?
  286. # [18:46] <@tantek> yes that would be better
  287. # [18:47] <tomlurge> ok, np
  288. # [18:47] <@tantek> better to define it as either a text string meaning the author's name, or a nested hCard providing the author's name (as fn) and any other details (such as URL)
  289. # [18:47] <@tantek> also - I recommend omitting any text about "conforming parser" from the property definitions.
  290. # [18:47] <@tantek> the property definitions should be written for authors/publishers
  291. # [18:48] <@tantek> for parsers/programmers - it is better to create a separate "Parsing" section later
  292. # [18:48] <@tantek> that specifies any parsing details
  293. # [18:49] <@tantek> (btw re: "author", hReview's "reviewer" needs similar fixes as well) http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview#Property_details
  294. # [18:49] <tomlurge> but they should know *why* they can omit *what*. and therfor they have to know about parsers. but i'll try to make it sound less frightening
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  296. # [18:50] <@tantek> tomlurge - authors/publishers really don't want to know about parsers
  297. # [18:50] <@tantek> it's just confusing
  298. # [18:50] <@tantek> for them - it is just extra text that they have to wade through
  299. # [18:50] <@tantek> better to group the parsing details in a separate section
  300. # [18:51] <tomlurge> k
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  303. # [19:00] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* published */ deleted reference to hAtom. refering to datetime-design-pattern is good enough and easier to comprehend" (+40) http://is.gd/1jhfL
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  305. # [19:02] <tomlurge> tantek: how about this: "* The contents of the element {{may}} be a plain text string in which case it defaults to a "vcard fn". Anything more elaborate {{must}} follow the conventions outlined in [[hCard]]. "
  306. # [19:04] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* author */ switched from hAtom to hCard, removed parsing note" (-17) http://is.gd/1jhso
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  309. # [19:07] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* Property details */ "author" is now inherited from vCard" (-3) http://is.gd/1jhBJ
  310. # [19:08] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* Property details */ " (+2) http://is.gd/1jhEO
  311. # [19:11] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* Parser Processing Notes */ author defaults to "vcard fn"" (+93) http://is.gd/1jhNk
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  313. # [19:18] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "/* ingredient */ added example for type and value" (+105) http://is.gd/1ji9J
  314. # [19:23] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe "added some spacing between chapters" (+4) http://is.gd/1jinN
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  318. # [19:38] <trammell> Good morning, all! Does anyone know if/how Google looks at VoteLinks?
  319. # [19:39] * Joins: Jonbo (n=Jonbo123@adsl-068-209-082-227.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  320. # [19:41] <@tantek> welcome trammell!
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  322. # [19:41] <trammell> thanks, tantek :-)
  323. # [19:41] <@tantek> hi KevinMarks. trammell has a question about Google and VoteLinks.
  324. # [19:41] <trammell> hiya, kevin!
  325. # [19:42] <KevinMarks> hi
  326. # [19:42] <KevinMarks> OK
  327. # [19:42] <KevinMarks> whats the question?
  328. # [19:42] <trammell> Does Google give any credence to VoteLinks?
  329. # [19:43] <mfbot> Tantek edited hrecipe "/* Copyright */ fix typo, reference microformats wiki copyrights explicitly" (+6) http://is.gd/1jjjw
  330. # [19:43] <KevinMarks> not that I know of - Pagerank can't handle negative links
  331. # [19:43] <trammell> hmmm...
  332. # [19:43] <@tantek> but does Google treat "vote-against" like "rel-nofollow" ?
  333. # [19:43] <KevinMarks> google treats normal links as +1 vote and nofollow ones as 0 vote
  334. # [19:44] <trammell> noindex and nofollow seem like such a nuclear option. i'd like to be able to qualify a link and not hide things from spiders.
  335. # [19:44] <@tantek> then does Google treat "vote-abstain" as 0 vote also?
  336. # [19:44] <KevinMarks> not sure - matt cutts would know
  337. # [19:44] <@tantek> nofollow is a poorly named rel
  338. # [19:44] <KevinMarks> I don't think so
  339. # [19:44] <@tantek> it doesn't actually mean "don't follow"
  340. # [19:44] <@tantek> it just means, don't give any weight to this link
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  342. # [19:45] <@tantek> so crawlers may still spider through "rel-nofollow" links
  343. # [19:45] <trammell> ah
  344. # [19:45] <@tantek> yeah
  345. # [19:45] <hober> tantek: I talked to maciej yesterday; he's amenable to crediting the microformats principles in the html design principles document.
  346. # [19:45] <hober> I'll let you know when that change goes in, if I notice it. Or you can follow along here: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/html-design-principles/
  347. # [19:45] <@tantek> hober, very much appreciated
  348. # [19:45] <hober> np
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  350. # [19:46] <trammell> that makes a bit of difference, but having a trinary option like votelinks feels like a better solution.
  351. # [19:47] <KevinMarks> yes, that was the original idea
  352. # [19:47] <@tantek> btw - regarding the naming issue of rel-nofollow: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-nofollow#open_issues
  353. # [19:48] <trammell> that's exactly what i was looking for, tantek. thanks!
  354. # [19:48] <@tantek> which reminds me - KevinMarks, mind adding yourself to: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-nofollow#Copyright
  355. # [19:48] <@tantek> ?
  356. # [19:49] <KevinMarks> oops, sorry, thought i had
  357. # [19:49] <mfbot> Kevin Marks edited rel-nofollow "/* Copyright */ make mine PD" (+164) http://is.gd/1jjCK
  358. # [19:50] <@tantek> naming is a difficult thing - it's not uncommon for naming errors to occur in formats/specs
  359. # [19:50] <@tantek> trammell - for more on naming, see http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles
  360. # [19:50] <KevinMarks> gtg
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  362. # [19:51] <trammell> thanks, kevin!
  363. # [20:04] <hober> There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things. -- Phil Karlton
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  367. # [20:12] <@tantek> hober - do you have a citation for that quote?
  368. # [20:13] * Joins: ebel (n=rory@unaffiliated/ebel)
  369. # [20:14] <@tantek> (URL)
  370. # [20:18] <@tantek> there is no wikipedia page for Phil Karlton nor is there any mention in Wikiquote: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:Search/Phil_Karlton
  371. # [20:18] <@tantek> also, I think Knuth would beg to differ that "there are only two hard things in Computer Science".
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  374. # [20:37] <@tantek> tomlurge I made a small fix/update to the copyright section in hRecipe - looks like there may have been a copy/paste typo from hAudio
  375. # [20:38] <tomlurge> tantek: thanks. that's very well possible. i found more than one months after editing it ...
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  377. # [20:51] <@tantek> sf folks - since we just had the 4th bday party last Friday - none of us usual organizers has proposed a dinner for tonight (yet). if there is interest however, we can certainly make it happen.
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  392. # [22:10] <hober> tantek: the oldest reference I can find is from January 2000: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200001/msg00170.html
  393. # [22:11] <hober> I suppose http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/2000-January/018394.html is more canonical a link for that message
  394. # [22:19] * hober emailed Tim to see if there's an older, linkable reference
  395. # [22:30] <hober> make that January 1999 (again tbray quoting pk): http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/1999-January/008389.html
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  402. # [23:03] <@tantek> benward - I noticed that hReview had that problem you mentioned with the semantic-xhtml-design-principles being at the front of the spec - fixed now. see if this look better / gets to the point sooner from your perspective: http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview
  403. # [23:03] <@benward> Ah, yes, that's much better to have it at the end of the document. Nice :)
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  406. # [23:07] <@tantek> tomlurge (editor of hRecipe) and I had a bit of a good editors conversation back and forth earlier today, and it was clear that many issues in the format/order of hRecipe came from other drafts (notably hAudio/hAtom/hReview) - so while he fixed hRecipe, I fixed hReview respectively. I'm thinking of writing up a few of the editors lessons learned into an "editors-guide".
  407. # [23:07] <@benward> That would be a good document to have
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  410. # [23:25] <mfbot> Tantek edited to-do "/* update specification section organization */ note goal, process vaguely worded statements into next-actions, note hCard improvements, add editors-guide task" (+437) http://is.gd/1jrW6
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  416. # Session Close: Wed Jul 01 00:00:00 2009

The end :)