/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2009-09-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Sep 01 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:05] * Parts: BillCriswell (n=Bill@66.240.28.254)
  4. # [00:08] <JonathanMalek_> ok, those moves are done, and the link to the hatom-geo discussion is in place.
  5. # [00:11] <@tantek> awesome
  6. # [00:11] <JonathanMalek_> hoping the proposal makes it clear what we're trying to do: examples will be even better
  7. # [00:12] <JonathanMalek_> we're getting a lot of questions (and some serious misunderstanding, including from Google) regarding the concept of inheriting from hatom
  8. # [00:13] <@tantek> inheritance in general has always caused lots of questions and misunderstanding
  9. # [00:13] <@tantek> it's one of the biggest design flaws of OOP
  10. # [00:13] <JonathanMalek_> I think for the most part
  11. # [00:14] <JonathanMalek_> people just miss the concept that we're reusing hAtom
  12. # [00:14] <@tantek> re-use good. inheritance bad.
  13. # [00:14] <JonathanMalek_> and are asking questions like, "why only 5 fields for news?"
  14. # [00:14] <JonathanMalek_> "Because we don't want to retype the hatom spec" is not a good answer yet :)
  15. # [00:14] <@tantek> sounds like a good way to start /wiki/news-faq :)
  16. # [00:14] <JonathanMalek_> absolutely right
  17. # [00:15] <@tantek> JonathanMalek - it also might be better to consider defining a news item/addition which is a special kind of hAtom entry or addition - rather than discussing news as inheriting or subclassing hAtom
  18. # [00:15] <JonathanMalek_> hmmm
  19. # [00:15] <JonathanMalek_> struggled with that idea early on
  20. # [00:15] <@tantek> note that hReview is reviews about items, and those items used to just have a name (fn), photo, url
  21. # [00:15] <@tantek> and grew to include an hCard instead
  22. # [00:16] <@tantek> and an hCalendar vevent instead
  23. # [00:16] <@tantek> and similarly people can now composite hMedia to do reviews of media items
  24. # [00:16] <@tantek> etc.
  25. # [00:16] <@tantek> this kind of re-use, composition, works MUCH better in practice with human data (documents) than *any* form of programming language inheritance
  26. # [00:16] <JonathanMalek_> completely agreed
  27. # [00:17] <JonathanMalek_> we're depending heavily on that idea
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  29. # [00:19] <JonathanMalek_> for instance, AP classification systems do entity extraction, subject, geo and event identification. Rather than describing those as parts of a news story, authors/publishers are free to mark those up however they see fit. The simplest is a rel-tag, the more thorough (and interesting) would be hCard or hCalendar.
  30. # [00:23] <JonathanMalek_> composing news stories using a range of tools, from simplest to the kind of change that impacts your authoring system.
  31. # [00:23] <JonathanMalek_> on your statement: "a special kind of hAtom entry", I think that's exactly what we're doing.
  32. # [00:24] <JonathanMalek_> though maybe I need to understand that point a bit better--my thought is that, using DavidJanes' suggestion, "hentry [some-other-root]" as the right way to express "specialized" instances of hatom.
  33. # [00:25] <JonathanMalek_> Benefit to parsers and authors alike--if you can't parse or produce the specialization, you can still benefit by parsing/emitting hentry.
  34. # [00:26] <csarven> I think Comments may be another good example for specialized hAtom.. It is not fully sorted out yet though
  35. # [00:27] <@tantek> JonathanMalek - I agree that's what you're conceptually doing with the news work, but I think the documentation does not currently reflect that viewpoint / positioning - and could be updated to improve that.
  36. # [00:27] <@tantek> csarven - comments could also be marked up as hReview
  37. # [00:27] <@tantek> as a comment is often feedback/review of a post
  38. # [00:27] <@tantek> now a *time ordered list* of comments could *also* be marked up as hAtom
  39. # [00:28] <csarven> Could stretch it even to hCalendar I suppose
  40. # [00:30] <JonathanMalek_> tantek: will look at the docs to express that clearer. It's become fairly obvious that the intent to define a root class "hnews" that *will not* parse without including "hentry" is not an immediately graspable concept. I would have thought that class="hnews hentry" would be immediately clear as to objective, but that's not the case.
  41. # [00:33] <@tantek> csarven - no, not hCalendar, because they're not "events" in the human event sense
  42. # [00:34] <csarven> I realise that. It is a stretch
  43. # [00:34] <@tantek> JonathanMalek, maybe class="hentry hnews" may be better understood (though it is semantically identically)
  44. # [00:34] <@tantek> csarven - it's worse than a stretch, it's a dilutionary abuse
  45. # [00:34] <@tantek> we made the mistake of doing this with issues on the wiki
  46. # [00:34] <@tantek> the template used to use hCalendar
  47. # [00:35] <JonathanMalek_> I'll make sure the examples use that--that's a great clarification
  48. # [00:35] <@tantek> but that made little sense, both semantically, and practically
  49. # [00:35] <@tantek> nobody views issues in a calendar program!
  50. # [00:35] <@tantek> it's nonsensical
  51. # [00:35] <@tantek> JonathanMalek, for similar examples see hCalendar e.g. "location vcard", and hReview, e.g. "item vevent"
  52. # [00:36] <JonathanMalek_> "hentry [specialized-root]" while only playing with order and nothing else, just makes it clearer
  53. # [00:36] <csarven> What about microblogging notices? Would you see them as events?
  54. # [00:37] <@tantek> activity stream type stuff? no
  55. # [00:37] <@tantek> hCalendar events are for *human* events, not machine events
  56. # [00:37] <@tantek> machine events are essentially *anything* that has a timestamp
  57. # [00:37] <@tantek> in the context of human calendars, that's not useful
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  59. # [00:41] <csarven> Must sleep. Later all
  60. # [00:42] <@tantek> later csarven!
  61. # [00:42] <csarven> Thanks
  62. # [00:43] <csarven> I've been having an on/off internal debate with myself about using hCalendar in StatusNet (formerly aka Laconica updates. Good that I've put that off :)
  63. # [00:44] <@tantek> thanks csarven
  64. # [00:44] <@tantek> StatusNet definitely hAtom :)
  65. # [00:45] <csarven> Bye
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  108. # [03:23] <benward_> Would appreciate thoughts on using category to indicate the languages supported by a product (or person): http://microformats.org/wiki/category-brainstorming
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  111. # [03:24] <@tantek> benward - there shouldn't be a need for it
  112. # [03:24] <@tantek> in the case of content, "lang" handles it
  113. # [03:25] <@tantek> in the case of a link to content in another language, a rel="alternate" hreflang=".." handles it
  114. # [03:25] <@benward> OK, here's our use case:
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  117. # [03:25] <@tantek> so if e.g. an hReview is published in multiple languages
  118. # [03:26] <@benward> We have the Yahoo Application Platform.
  119. # [03:26] <@tantek> "consumable" as it were
  120. # [03:26] <@tantek> then links to those instances should be marked up with hreflang="..." rel="alternate"
  121. # [03:26] <@benward> So we have a directory of applications you can run on Yahoo (each app is a product -> hProduct)
  122. # [03:26] <@tantek> (per HTML4.01)
  123. # [03:27] <@benward> Each hProduct describes the app, and the properties of it.
  124. # [03:27] <@tantek> benward - best to document those real world examples on a "language-examples" page
  125. # [03:27] <@benward> The available/supported languages in question are some of those properties
  126. # [03:28] <@tantek> but what does that even mean? "available/supported" languages
  127. # [03:28] <@tantek> need links to real world examples to better understand
  128. # [03:28] <@benward> As in, an app may support English, French and German.
  129. # [03:28] <@tantek> what of the app? the UI? the content model?
  130. # [03:28] <@benward> As documented o the category-brainstorming page: An app can be localized into multiple languages.
  131. # [03:28] <@benward> The UI
  132. # [03:28] <@tantek> so this is *localizations* then
  133. # [03:29] <@tantek> for apps that may be localized in a number of different languages
  134. # [03:29] <@tantek> start localization-examples to document this
  135. # [03:29] <@tantek> I don't think jumping to "category-brainstorming" is the right thing to do here
  136. # [03:30] <@tantek> better to proceed with localization-examples, localization-formats, and then localization-brainstorming
  137. # [03:30] <@tantek> because you're coming up with a way of marking up the localization(s) that is/are being expressed
  138. # [03:30] <@tantek> and "category" is only one possible solution
  139. # [03:30] <@tantek> whereas I'd expect a category-brainstorming page to be about brainstorming how to markup a category
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  142. # [03:33] <@benward> Hmm. It's not a microformat for the app itself. It's about describing the app — which is already within the context of hProduct. Will add additional documentation.
  143. # [03:34] <@tantek> microformats are always about text content describing something
  144. # [03:34] <@tantek> sometimes the text content *is* the something, e.g. hAtom, hReview
  145. # [03:34] <@tantek> but often it is *about* something, e.g. hCard, hCalenar
  146. # [03:34] <@tantek> hCalendar even
  147. # [03:35] <@tantek> thus the distinction you make, not for the app itself, but for describing the app - is not a useful/relevant distinction - as the same reasoning will apply in both cases.
  148. # [03:35] <@tantek> localization as an aspect of hProduct may make sense yes
  149. # [03:35] <@tantek> thus perhaps add localization examples within that context to product-examples
  150. # [03:35] <@tantek> etc.
  151. # [03:36] <@benward> k
  152. # [03:37] <@tantek> benward - is this an example of the kind of thing you are talking about?
  153. # [03:37] <@tantek> http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/all.html
  154. # [03:37] <@tantek> product downloads listed by localization
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  156. # [03:37] <@tantek> note the heading text "Fully *Localized* Versions"
  157. # [03:37] <@tantek> :)
  158. # [03:38] <@benward> In so far as it's a page for a single product that lists languages, yes. But in this context, there's no concept of a per-language download link.
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  160. # [03:38] <@tantek> need URL for what you mean by "this context"
  161. # [03:38] <@benward> Don't have one yet. Internal.
  162. # [03:38] <@tantek> then it doesn't deserve a microformat - we've been down that road before
  163. # [03:39] <@benward> OK, http://apps.yahoo.com/-yqRaUQ7k/
  164. # [03:39] <@tantek> no public examples of content to be marked up, not important enough (80/20) to merit a microformat
  165. # [03:39] <@benward> Imagine that underneath the text description is some text that says ‘Supported Languages: English, Français, Deutsch’
  166. # [03:41] <@benward> Anyway. I'll expand document/examples when I can
  167. # [03:41] <@tantek> but again - that's ambiguous
  168. # [03:41] <@tantek> "Supported Languages" could mean UI or content or both
  169. # [03:41] <@tantek> if it's UI - it's *localization*
  170. # [03:42] <@tantek> if it's content - it's *internationalization*
  171. # [03:42] <@tantek> in either case is it "language" is imprecise/ambiguous
  172. # [03:43] <@benward> Supported Languages, in the context or advertizing an application, means localization.
  173. # [03:44] <@benward> It refers explicitly to a user preference for the language in which content (that is, page content, which includes YAP UI) will be displayed where available
  174. # [03:44] <@tantek> I understand the desire to mark this up with POSH (or even just plain categories/tagging), but I don't see what problem is being solved per se
  175. # [03:45] <@tantek> i.e. what data sharing does this enable that has an actual use case
  176. # [03:45] <@tantek> (and just "publishing" is not a use case, that's an example useful for research, but not for a problem statement)
  177. # [03:46] <@benward> That's somewhat fair. It would allow search engines to only display applications available in a certain language. Which this being Open Social, there's cross-network interop going to happen for apps like these.
  178. # [03:47] <@tantek> that's a much better problem / use-case statement
  179. # [03:47] <@benward> But yes, likelihood is that our ship date will involve POSH in the initial version anyway, just through production reality. But I'm keen to have documentation iteration here and in the open as early as possible, obviosuly
  180. # [03:47] <@benward> Anyway, gotta run home
  181. # [03:47] <@benward> Back online later.
  182. # [03:48] <@tantek> k
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  273. # [11:57] <seengee> hi all, anyone familiar with google's implementation of microformats for their "rich snippets" ?
  274. # [11:58] <seengee> especially interested in their rich snippets testing tool - http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets - which appears to not be following the relevant standards
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  276. # [12:01] <@adactio> seengee: It does have some issues. People have been giving feedback to the Google guys on the list so hopefully it will get updated soon.
  277. # [12:08] <seengee> what i'm unsure of at the moment is whether the preview I am seeing is actually accurate to how my results will be shown because how its misinterpreting - for example - dtreviewed means that a user will see a timestamp instead of a nicely formatted date
  278. # [12:08] <seengee> thanks btw
  279. # [12:26] <seengee> adactio: which list are these issues being reported on? would be interested to make some additions
  280. # [12:29] <@adactio> seengee: you can find the emails in the list archive (check for activity in the past few days).
  281. # [12:32] <seengee> adactio: thanks, i'll have a read through
  282. # [12:34] <seengee> one other thing while i'm in here - is it possible to prevent accidental class clashes within a microformat, i can understand why namespacing is not used but especially when enhancing legacy code its not always possible to update css and html
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  286. # [12:51] <@adactio> seengee: the root class (e.g. vcard, vevent) effectively acts like a name space. Clashes can't occur with a class of, say, "url" inside an hcard and a class of "url" elsewhere on the same page.
  287. # [12:58] <seengee> adactio: the problem we have seen is in using hproduct for example, we are using classes nested within the hproduct container that make semantic sense being called what they are called but are storing data that is not suitable for the microformat. this clash seems unavoidable to me
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  289. # [13:00] <@adactio> seengee: but where's the problem? You can use your own class names and the microformats class names.
  290. # [13:01] <seengee> adaction: an example of this is a class "availability" which stores a system configurable label that represents what that specific site wants to call availability, we cannot rename the class and , although nested within the container , it is not storing data that the mircoformat would expect
  291. # [13:02] <seengee> adactio: an example of this is a class "availability" which stores a system configurable label that represents what that specific site wants to call availability, we cannot rename the class and , although nested within the container , it is not storing data that the mircoformat would expect
  292. # [13:03] <@adactio> seengee: but why is that a problem>
  293. # [13:03] <@adactio> ?
  294. # [13:04] <@adactio> Are you saying that what you call availability matches to a different class name in the microformat?
  295. # [13:05] <seengee> adactio: because the microformat parser thinks that the phrase stored within that class is a reference to the item's availability which it isnt, its just the label representing Availability
  296. # [13:05] <@adactio> ah, I see.
  297. # [13:06] <@adactio> I must admit, I don't know much about hproduct. It's a draft microformat so it could well be that the class names end up changing.
  298. # [13:09] <seengee> I would assume though that this issue would exist within other microformats too, its not inconceivable that a class within a microformat container could need to be ignored by the parser, or is it?
  299. # [13:13] <@adactio> seengee: I think it's pretty unlikely but I guess it's certainly possible.
  300. # [13:15] <seengee> adactio: i guess this is only going to be an issue with legacy code but this is the bread and butter for a lot of developers and it would be a shame if there were potential barriers to adoption for these people
  301. # [13:16] <@adactio> seengee: I would agree but I think it's an edge case. Yours is the first instance I've heard.
  302. # [13:17] <seengee> adactio: my mum always said i was "unique"
  303. # [13:17] <@adactio> :-)
  304. # [13:20] <seengee> as much as it is an edge case, would you say there's any value in me pursuing this?
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  340. # [17:46] <@adactio> Quick question for anyone...
  341. # [17:47] <@adactio> Are "fuzzy" dates valid in hResume?
  342. # [17:47] <@adactio> e.g. 2009-09 rather than 2009-09-01
  343. # [17:47] <@adactio> for work history/experience?
  344. # [17:48] <gsnedders> It uses hCalendar, so all ISO 8601 should be fine
  345. # [17:48] <gsnedders> (Which I guess technically allows even 21, just giving century)
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  355. # [18:29] <hober> although "Microformats /should/ use RFC 3339." -- /wiki/iso-8601
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  359. # [18:51] <tobyink> gsnedders, in ISO 8601 terms, the 21st century is "20".
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  361. # [18:56] <gsnedders> Yeah, right, duh
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  363. # [18:57] * gsnedders typed "20" then realized, wait, this is the 21st cent., and changed it to 21, even though he knew what ISO 8601 said (which is why he got it right before)
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The end :)