/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2009-09-07 / end

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  51. # [09:53] <dom_> Moin!
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  66. # [13:21] <dom_> I'm gettings errors about the date in my hatom documents ... http://tools.microformatic.com/transcode/atom/hatom/http://www.math.uni-bonn.de/people/support/test.html
  67. # [13:21] <dom_> Maybe somebody could take a look?
  68. # [13:21] <dom_> Invalid input: Year part is not 4 digits long and/or contains invalid characters(Error code: 02)
  69. # [13:37] <tobyink> This pattern: <span class="value-title" title="2009-08-12"> </span>12. August 2009
  70. # [13:37] <tobyink> is not widely implemented yet.
  71. # [13:54] <dom_> Too bad
  72. # [13:59] <tobyink> The <abbr> pattern works in the vast majority of parsers. It suffers from some accessibility problems, though if you just use dates (not datetimes) it's not too bad.
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  92. # [14:53] <dom_> tobyink: I just really hate this tooltips on my dates
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  96. # [15:31] <dom_> Is there any way to hide the tooltips via css?!
  97. # [15:32] <gsnedders> dom_: You can't
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  104. # [16:14] <tobyink> dom_: only by hiding the entire element.
  105. # [16:18] <dom_> I'll just get used to it... :)
  106. # [16:18] <dom_> tobyink: But thanks!
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  127. # [18:52] <@tantek> tommorris let me know how the London Linked Data meeting goes, and good to hear that you had a chance to talk with Brian Suda about XMDP-to-RDFS mapping/transformation.
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  135. # [19:26] <to_> any POSH pattern to display tweets?
  136. # [19:33] <factoryjoe> to_: just use hAtom
  137. # [19:37] <to_> I've set: <ol><li><cite>me</cite><blockquote><p>I'm happy today</p></blockquote></li> but what tag to display the date of the tweet?
  138. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> <time>
  139. # [19:37] <to_> really <time> ?
  140. # [19:37] <factoryjoe> TabAtkins: there's no <time> tag?
  141. # [19:37] <to_> oO
  142. # [19:37] <factoryjoe> srsly
  143. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> HTML5. Love it.
  144. # [19:38] <factoryjoe> heh
  145. # [19:38] <to_> TabAtkins: no but this time it should be HTML4
  146. # [19:38] <to_> :)
  147. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> <time datetime="i'm a datetime in ISO8601 or whatever">I'm a date in human-readable form</time>
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  150. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> <time> will work in older browsers. You just gotta run the ol' document.createElement('time') trick for IE if you want to style it.
  151. # [19:40] <to_> TabAtkins: no but I'm just looking for a semantic HTML4 markup for this actually, no JS
  152. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> Then <span class=time>
  153. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> There isn't anything more semantic in html4.
  154. # [19:41] <factoryjoe> <abbr>
  155. # [19:41] <factoryjoe> look up the date-time pattern
  156. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> That's got accessibility issues, though (which is one of the big reasons <time> was created).
  157. # [19:41] <factoryjoe> sure
  158. # [19:42] <factoryjoe> except those issues have, to my knowledge, largely been addressed
  159. # [19:42] <factoryjoe> http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern
  160. # [19:42] <factoryjoe> http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern#HTML_5_.3Ctime.3E_Element
  161. # [19:42] <gsnedders> How have they been addressed? AT will still read the abbr out.
  162. # [19:43] <factoryjoe> http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern#accessibility_issues
  163. # [19:43] <@tantek> TabAtkins - the accessibility issues have been solved months ago: http://tr.im/valueclass
  164. # [19:43] <@tantek> factoryjoe - those pages need updating
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  166. # [19:43] <factoryjoe> i see that
  167. # [19:43] <@tantek> refer to the value-class-pattern page *first*
  168. # [19:43] <factoryjoe> it would be good to make that notice on the date-design pattern page... like, in BOLD
  169. # [19:44] <@tantek> TabAtkins - <time> is also insufficient to address all the needs from microformats.
  170. # [19:44] <factoryjoe> gsnedders: see this: http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern
  171. # [19:44] <TabAtkins> Ah, so using <abbr> only for dates, where the accessibility isn't bad, then marking the time separately. Okay.
  172. # [19:44] <gsnedders> <abbr class="value" title="2008-06-24">this Tuesday</abbr> still doesn't help :\ (from that page)
  173. # [19:44] <@tantek> factoryjoe - perhaps you could add a note like that at the top of the date-time-design pattern page?
  174. # [19:44] <gsnedders> I mean, sure, it's better. But it still isn't brilliant.
  175. # [19:44] <@tantek> gsnedders - why do you say "that doesn't help?"
  176. # [19:44] <factoryjoe> ok
  177. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> tantek: Are you talking about date ranges and fuzzy dates?
  178. # [19:45] <@tantek> TabAtkins - yes, just for dates, it's not bad, because ISO8601 dates are both readable and listenable, in fact, the *most* human readable world wide.
  179. # [19:46] <gsnedders> If I'm using something like JAWS then I still get the date read out whereas I don't see it in a visual UA, IMO that's suboptimal.
  180. # [19:46] <@tantek> TabAtkins - see http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/#time for starters
  181. # [19:46] <@tantek> durations are another problem that <time> fails to address
  182. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> tantek: Yeah, that's what I thought. Those can be worked around, but overall I personally agree that less precision should be allowed in some way.
  183. # [19:47] <@tantek> gsnedders - depends on your JAWS settings
  184. # [19:47] <@tantek> gsnedders - do you have an actual example or are you simply copy/pasting what others' claim?
  185. # [19:47] <@tantek> gsnedders - what are you "optimizing" for?
  186. # [19:48] <@tantek> gsnedders, and yes, that being said, it's better to just do something like <span class="dtstart">2008-06-24</span>
  187. # [19:48] <@tantek> providing the same international date content to everybody
  188. # [19:48] <@tantek> rather than using abbr to send different content to different audiences
  189. # [19:49] <gsnedders> tantek: For the µf that allow any sort of ISO8601 date, JAWS reading of (IIRC) <abbr title=20090907>today</abbr> is still suboptimal
  190. # [19:49] <gsnedders> (As if my memory serves me correctly that'll be read as a single number)
  191. # [19:49] <@tantek> gsnedders - agreed that reading of "20090907" is not understandable as a date - it's read as twenty million, ninety thousand, nine hundred seven.
  192. # [19:49] <@tantek> HOWEVER
  193. # [19:49] <@tantek> with hyphens it works
  194. # [19:50] <@tantek> "2009-09-07"
  195. # [19:50] <gsnedders> tantek: Right, but that's a subset of all conforming µf documents
  196. # [19:50] <@tantek> gsnedders not sure what point you're making there
  197. # [19:50] <@tantek> if you want to author more accessible content with microformats, there are techniques for doing so
  198. # [19:51] <gsnedders> The problem is only solved for _some_ µf documents. It shouldn't be the case you have to use specific optional syntax to be accessible. That optional syntax should be compulsory.
  199. # [19:52] <@tantek> gsnedders - agreed. it is being made a requirement in hCalendar 1.0.1
  200. # [19:52] <@tantek> (MUST)
  201. # [19:52] <@tantek> and (MUST NOT) for non-hyphenated dates and non-colonized times
  202. # [19:56] <gsnedders> Great. Anyhow, I'm at the point where the on-train internet access often drops to a few bytes per second.
  203. # [19:56] <@tantek> gsnedders - the feedback and reinforcement of such points is appreciated. thank you.
  204. # [19:58] * gsnedders looks over the Firth of Forth, getting close to home for the first time in three and a half months
  205. # [19:58] <factoryjoe> tantek: made the change
  206. # [20:01] <@tantek> factoryjoe - thanks much - there are many pages that need updating, and even just heads-up notes like that help as interim/incremental solutions until wiki editors/contributors have time to more fully edit articles to bring them up to date.
  207. # [20:01] <factoryjoe> cool
  208. # [20:01] <factoryjoe> np
  209. # [20:02] <@tantek> factoryjoe - also - on a tangent - how have you kept up with updating all your wordpress related blogs to 2.8.4?
  210. # [20:02] <factoryjoe> manually
  211. # [20:02] <factoryjoe> though using the built-in updater
  212. # [20:02] <factoryjoe> that helps a lot
  213. # [20:02] <factoryjoe> my theme is out of date
  214. # [20:02] <factoryjoe> i need to rewrite it
  215. # [20:02] <factoryjoe> :(
  216. # [20:06] <@tantek> factoryjoe - yes, it seems like a lot of work to maintain a wordpress install.
  217. # [20:07] <factoryjoe> these days
  218. # [20:07] <@tantek> not a good UX for people who want to "own their own domain/identity" on the web
  219. # [20:07] <@tantek> it's too much work, even for a lot of (most?) techies
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  221. # [20:08] <factoryjoe> well
  222. # [20:08] <factoryjoe> that's one of the costs of "owning your own identity"
  223. # [20:08] <factoryjoe> however — if you do own your own identity, it should really just be ONE install...
  224. # [20:08] <factoryjoe> that said, things shift when you're rebuilding infrastructure
  225. # [20:09] <factoryjoe> the web was designed for documents, not people
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  235. # [21:09] <singpolyma> tantek: I keep mine up to date with the Dreamhost magical update button. Haven't needed to change my theme in some time, although if you use default themes that's more guarenteed
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The end :)