/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2010-02-19 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  42. # [15:49] <mwunsch> Can anybody point me to some good examples of vCards?
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  44. # [15:49] <mwunsch> Want to make sure i'm structuring mine properly
  45. # [16:04] <csarven> mwunsch There are plenty in the wiki hcard-examples
  46. # [16:05] <csarven> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild
  47. # [16:11] <mwunsch> csarven: thanks
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  74. # [19:37] <manu-home> hey tantek: trying to get Julian to join...
  75. # [19:37] <@tantek> hey manu
  76. # [19:41] <@tantek> ok I have an unrelated question, how is http://to./ a valid URL, and what is the TLD?
  77. # [19:41] <manu-home> While we wait, here's the HTML WG issue that is related to @profile in HTML5: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55
  78. # [19:42] <manu-home> looks like .to is the TLD?
  79. # [19:42] * Joins: reschke (~chatzilla@p508FC732.dip.t-dialin.net)
  80. # [19:42] <manu-home> Hi Julian :)
  81. # [19:42] <reschke> good evening :-)
  82. # [19:42] * manu-home has never heard of .to TLD.
  83. # [19:42] <reschke> Togo?
  84. # [19:43] * manu-home would like to register http://go.to/
  85. # [19:43] <reschke> appears you're too late
  86. # [19:43] <reschke> ok then
  87. # [19:43] <manu-home> Tonga
  88. # [19:43] <reschke> O I c
  89. # [19:43] <manu-home> Tonga TLD == .to, but still no idea why http://to./ works
  90. # [19:44] <manu-home> anyway, @Profile.
  91. # [19:44] <manu-home> Julian, we're discussing ISSUE-55, right?
  92. # [19:44] <reschke> Tantek's proposal has the nice property of not requiring the support of a certain set of people.
  93. # [19:44] <manu-home> in the HTML WG tracker?
  94. # [19:44] <manu-home> I think RDFa community would support @profile everywhere.
  95. # [19:44] <reschke> yes, that's the issue
  96. # [19:45] <manu-home> we may process it differently, but from what I understand, that would be fine.
  97. # [19:45] <reschke> so if we made this a stand-alone spec
  98. # [19:45] <reschke> we'd also allow it everywhere - so we would go beyond what HTML4 said
  99. # [19:45] <reschke> right?
  100. # [19:45] <@tantek> reschke - I don't really see any political aspects as a strength or weakness - I'd rather focus on the technical and documentation merits.
  101. # [19:46] <manu-home> tantek - here's the previous @profile proposal that we worked on: http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/html5-epb.html
  102. # [19:46] <reschke> sure, but I've had enough of politics over the last seven days, so less controversy sounds good to me
  103. # [19:46] <manu-home> It was just an attempt at a proposal... but that is the form we're thinking about, right?
  104. # [19:46] <@tantek> I think the idea is worthy on its technical and architectural merit
  105. # [19:47] * manu-home agrees.
  106. # [19:47] * reschke too
  107. # [19:47] <@tantek> manu - haven't had time to review your draft. I was envisioning something simple starting from what I wrote up for XMDP.
  108. # [19:47] <reschke> If it wasn't we wouldn't be discussing it
  109. # [19:47] <@tantek> and then extending that to every element
  110. # [19:47] <manu-home> but HTML WG has a difficult history... so we need to at least be aware of that going forward.
  111. # [19:47] <reschke> So Manu's "old" document has @profile for <head>, link/@rel=profile, and "my" HTML 4.01 erratum
  112. # [19:48] <@tantek> manu - I'd rather proceed forward with assumption of good faith.
  113. # [19:48] <reschke> would it make sense to use that as a staring point?
  114. # [19:48] <reschke> ...starting...
  115. # [19:48] <manu-home> tantek: yes, we're proceeding with assumption of good faith.
  116. # [19:48] <reschke> yep
  117. # [19:48] <@tantek> I'd rather start with XMDP and extend it to all elements
  118. # [19:48] <reschke> which brinngs us to the question - *where* do we want to do that
  119. # [19:48] <manu-home> here's what I'm concerned about: if we miss the deadline for @profile response.
  120. # [19:49] <manu-home> that takes @profile off of the table
  121. # [19:49] <@tantek> It's fairly minimal and neutral
  122. # [19:49] <manu-home> not only for HTML spec, but for any future separate spec, IIRC.
  123. # [19:49] <reschke> I think we need to be able to communicate a plan
  124. # [19:49] <@tantek> manu - I disagree - it takes @profile in the core HTML5 spec off the table
  125. # [19:49] <@tantek> which I think is fine
  126. # [19:49] <manu-home> Maciej just argued that just because something is split apart, or put together in the HTML5 spec, it doesn't change the scope of what the issues apply to.
  127. # [19:50] <reschke> Manu - RDFa-in-XHTML doesn't use @profile, right?
  128. # [19:50] <manu-home> RDFa in XHTML /does/ use @profile.
  129. # [19:50] <manu-home> but it's a SHOULD, not a MUST.
  130. # [19:50] <reschke> but doesn't require - right
  131. # [19:50] <@tantek> I think the problem is with abstract extensibility being in the core HTML5 spec
  132. # [19:50] <reschke> ok, so from that point of view it would be a spec that RDFa-in-HTML would want to cite, right?
  133. # [19:51] <manu-home> I agree with the sentiment and want that to be the way it is, Tantek - but we just had something happen in HTML WG that demonstrates that the chairs may not agree with us.
  134. # [19:51] <@tantek> perhaps - not clear that dependency is necessary
  135. # [19:51] <@tantek> manu - I'm confident that reasonable proposals made in good faith will be listened to
  136. # [19:51] <@tantek> I'd really like to minimize any rhetoric otherwise
  137. # [19:51] <manu-home> ok
  138. # [19:52] <reschke> which makes Tantek our spokesman :-)
  139. # [19:52] <manu-home> I'd be fine with that.
  140. # [19:52] <reschke> so...
  141. # [19:52] <@tantek> similarly, I'm also fine with posting the profile on any element proposal as a draft on microformats.org
  142. # [19:52] <@tantek> and contributing it to HTML WG
  143. # [19:52] <manu-home> or you Julian - I'm slammed at the moment, so shouldn't be in the critical path for this.
  144. # [19:52] <reschke> are we going to say: "yes we're doing a change proposal", but it involves creating a separate spec?
  145. # [19:52] <@tantek> since that's a pattern that is simi?p"to specs being posted on WHATWG and being contributed to HTMLWG
  146. # [19:53] <@tantek> this isn't a change proposal though
  147. # [19:53] <@tantek> that's the point
  148. # [19:53] <@tantek> this is a separate spec
  149. # [19:53] <reschke> understood
  150. # [19:53] <reschke> but I think Manu is right...
  151. # [19:53] * manu-home is getting dejavu.
  152. # [19:53] <@tantek> I actually like the idea of keeping HTML5 more minimal
  153. # [19:53] <reschke> ...in that letting the date slip away may weaken the position for adding it as a separate spec.
  154. # [19:53] * manu-home agrees.
  155. # [19:53] <reschke> but then
  156. # [19:54] <reschke> this would be a spec with 3 independant supporters
  157. # [19:54] <manu-home> also true.
  158. # [19:54] <reschke> so Sam's rule should apply
  159. # [19:54] <reschke> and we're *certainly* in scope
  160. # [19:54] <reschke> as we're just saving/extending something that is in HTML4 and in use
  161. # [19:54] <reschke> so separate spec it is?
  162. # [19:55] <manu-home> yes
  163. # [19:55] <manu-home> Julian - we're good if we just ask for an extension and say that the three of us are working on a proposal.
  164. # [19:55] <reschke> sure
  165. # [19:55] <manu-home> just to cover our bases.
  166. # [19:55] <reschke> I can send email for that
  167. # [19:55] <manu-home> great, thx.
  168. # [19:55] <@tantek> manu, I generally agree with section 3 HTML 4.01 Errata in your draft, as that seems compatible with XMDP
  169. # [19:55] <reschke> do we want to talk about the venue where to write the spec?
  170. # [19:55] <@tantek> and the level of detail is appreciated
  171. # [19:55] <reschke> I personally don't care.
  172. # [19:55] <@tantek> I'm not sure about the first part though
  173. # [19:56] <reschke> I'd prefer not to have to drive it, but would certainly contribute stuff and moral support
  174. # [19:56] <manu-home> I'm not tied to the first part in any way.
  175. # [19:56] <@tantek> ok
  176. # [19:56] <manu-home> I didn't try @profile everywhere because there didn't seem to be support for it in HTML WG.
  177. # [19:56] <manu-home> and we were going from no @profile, to @profile back in head.
  178. # [19:56] <@tantek> I've been transitioning and updating/errating XMDP to the microformats wiki overtime, and this is a good reason to generalize that and expand it to permit more flexible processing
  179. # [19:56] <manu-home> going from no @profile to @profile everywhere might have freaked people out.
  180. # [19:57] <reschke> it was discussed shortly and I think there was some sympathy for making it more useful if it reappears
  181. # [19:57] <reschke> so it might be exactly the opposite
  182. # [19:57] <@tantek> manu - I agree that profile everywhere might "freak some people out" but that's only in the core spec IMHO
  183. # [19:57] <reschke> so...
  184. # [19:57] <@tantek> reschke - I think that's true too - the key is to document a very good processing model
  185. # [19:57] <@tantek> I tried to do that starting with XMDP
  186. # [19:58] <reschke> so
  187. # [19:58] <@tantek> but clearly there is an expectation of more details with HTML5
  188. # [19:58] <reschke> - we don't want to touch HTML5 core
  189. # [19:58] <manu-home> tantek: the question of validation will come up - is @profile everywhere valid for HTML5 UAs?
  190. # [19:58] <reschke> - we want to publish in the HTML WG
  191. # [19:58] <manu-home> I say that it is valid.
  192. # [19:58] <reschke> - but we need some more time?
  193. # [19:58] <@tantek> or rather, we want to agree that dropping "profile" from HTML5 head element makes sense at this time given current usage
  194. # [19:58] <reschke> it is as valid as Microdata or RDFa
  195. # [19:58] <manu-home> reschke: yes.
  196. # [19:58] <reschke> ...or it would be...
  197. # [19:59] <@tantek> manu - regarding validation, ask the same question of microdata or RDFa
  198. # [19:59] <@tantek> or any extension
  199. # [19:59] <@tantek> you should get the same answer
  200. # [19:59] <reschke> right
  201. # [19:59] <manu-home> tantek: yes, exactly my point - the answer is "we haven't figured that out yet"
  202. # [19:59] <@tantek> manu - and that's ok for a spec in progress
  203. # [19:59] * manu-home nods.
  204. # [19:59] <@tantek> just express a desire that validation works similarly for such extensions
  205. # [20:00] <reschke> I'm still not 100% happy about this (validation) in conjuction with the text/html re-reg, but that's a different battle to fight (different issue and change proposals)
  206. # [20:00] <manu-home> it would put more pressure on the HTML WG to figure it out.
  207. # [20:00] <@tantek> because that seems to make sense, place them on similar footing, similar understanding for authors etc.
  208. # [20:00] <reschke> absolutely
  209. # [20:00] <manu-home> right
  210. # [20:00] <manu-home> We've been trying to get that answer out of HTML WG and WHAT WG for a while now.
  211. # [20:00] <@tantek> I'm ok with the folks who care about validation driving the need to figure out exactly how validating extensions works
  212. # [20:00] <manu-home> that would be Henri
  213. # [20:00] <@tantek> I think they'll have to figure out a way that is fairly equivalent for all extensions
  214. # [20:00] <manu-home> who has written validators for both RDFa and Microdata.
  215. # [20:00] <reschke> and Mike Smith, actually
  216. # [20:01] <reschke> oh, did he?
  217. # [20:01] <manu-home> I believe he did... last I checked.
  218. # [20:01] <manu-home> RDFa (without CURIE support) was definitely in there
  219. # [20:01] <reschke> but they aren't hooked to validator.nu right now, as far as I know
  220. # [20:01] <manu-home> and it was experimental.
  221. # [20:02] * manu-home sighs - he removed the RDFa one.
  222. # [20:02] <manu-home> ok
  223. # [20:02] <manu-home> so separate spec
  224. # [20:02] <manu-home> Tantek, do you have text that we could use?
  225. # [20:02] <manu-home> in the separate spec.
  226. # [20:02] <reschke> so do we want to include the link relation? It wouldn't be needed for HTML then, but might be useful in other places?
  227. # [20:03] <manu-home> I say keep it out for now.
  228. # [20:03] <manu-home> unless we have a clear use case for it.
  229. # [20:03] <@tantek> right, I trust them to be critical but do the right thing from a technical perspective, which I think is correct.
  230. # [20:03] <@tantek> manu - what do you think should be the scope of this document?
  231. # [20:03] <reschke> might be a good candidate to test the IANA registry when it's there
  232. # [20:03] <@tantek> should we simply propose profile as an extension to HTML5
  233. # [20:03] <reschke> but can of course be defined separately
  234. # [20:03] <@tantek> or also include an informative errata for HTML 4.01?
  235. # [20:03] <reschke> 1) yes
  236. # [20:04] <reschke> 2) I think it would be good to have that erratum published somehwere
  237. # [20:04] <@tantek> or also include an informative extension for HTML4.01 (similar to how ARIA extends HTML4/XHTML)
  238. # [20:04] <manu-home> tantek: scope should be simple - proposal profile as extension to HTML5, propose that @profile be allowed everywhere.
  239. # [20:04] <reschke> ...but it appears the W3C isn't looking towards opening that can of worms
  240. # [20:04] <@tantek> In other words, I don't see a need to tie "profile on any element" to requiring HTML5
  241. # [20:04] <@tantek> does that make sense?
  242. # [20:04] <reschke> oh ARIA does? Then we might want to do that as well
  243. # [20:04] <manu-home> hrm.
  244. # [20:05] <reschke> that makes a lot of sense; it would be great to have this in HTML4
  245. # [20:05] <@tantek> I would agree with keep the link relation *separate*
  246. # [20:05] <@tantek> i'd like to continue to evolve rel-profile here: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-profile
  247. # [20:05] <reschke> does it add complexity? (doing it for all of HTML)?
  248. # [20:05] <reschke> i'm fine with that
  249. # [20:05] <manu-home> I'm concerned about addressing too many things with this draft.
  250. # [20:05] <reschke> ok, so let's park the link relation for now
  251. # [20:06] <manu-home> I'm definitely concerned about saying anything about "fixing HTML4"
  252. # [20:06] <@tantek> reschke - I don't think it adds complexity
  253. # [20:06] <@tantek> manu - hence why I suggested *informative* errata
  254. # [20:06] <@tantek> for HTML 4.01
  255. # [20:06] <reschke> so informative erratum for HTML 4.01 for head/@profile
  256. # [20:06] <manu-home> if it's informative, Maciej will question why it's in the spec at all... since it seems to be a conformance requirement for HTML4.01
  257. # [20:06] <@tantek> thus if someone ever decides to do a HTML 4.02 or HTML 4.1 that *just* fixes HTML 4.01 (no new features) then they could incorporate it
  258. # [20:07] <reschke> and an extension for HTML in general for @profile everywhere?
  259. # [20:07] <@tantek> reschke - see how ARIA does this
  260. # [20:07] <manu-home> tantek: yes, I do see the positive benefit of it.
  261. # [20:07] <reschke> ok
  262. # [20:07] <reschke> I think there's no problem keeping the erratum (it's ready anywhere); in the worst case we can still drop it.
  263. # [20:07] <@tantek> the point is that something doesn't have to be normative right away in order to eventually have a potential positive impact
  264. # [20:08] <manu-home> true
  265. # [20:08] <@tantek> the erratum that Manu wrote up is pretty good already
  266. # [20:08] <reschke> maybe we should just post it as attachment on www-archive so it get's a stable URL for now...=
  267. # [20:08] <reschke> ?
  268. # [20:08] <@tantek> I would only suggest/make editorial changes
  269. # [20:08] <manu-home> Ok, so we're talking about this spec having two things: @profile everywhere proposal, HTML 4.01 Erratum.
  270. # [20:08] <@tantek> informative HTML 4.01 erratum
  271. # [20:08] <@tantek> errata - sorry - since they are plural :)
  272. # [20:08] <manu-home> right
  273. # [20:09] <reschke> something that we can point people to when they complain about the HTML4 spec
  274. # [20:09] <@tantek> and possibly a third, informative use of profile in HTML4, similar to use of ARIA in HTML4/XHTMl1
  275. # [20:09] <@tantek> reschke - right
  276. # [20:09] <reschke> it's also a useful base for talking about @profile in HTML x with x > 4.01
  277. # [20:09] <@tantek> and if the people that are concerned about HTML4 want to take the informative errata and push them to be normative - that can be done later and indepenently
  278. # [20:09] <reschke> ok then
  279. # [20:10] <manu-home> ok
  280. # [20:10] <reschke> proposal: I'll put together a mail, and let you review it, then send it to the mailing list
  281. # [20:10] <reschke> unless somebody volunteers
  282. # [20:10] <@tantek> I think we can start drafting on microformat.org/wiki as soon as time permits us
  283. # [20:10] <reschke> we can also hop over to etherpad and do it together.
  284. # [20:10] <manu-home> that sounds good, you get the e-mail ready
  285. # [20:10] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki that is
  286. # [20:10] <manu-home> proposal: I can edit/merge text for the proposal and put it in a form that HTML WG will accept.
  287. # [20:11] <@tantek> I can do a rough draft with combining of XMDP and Manu's HTML 4.01 errata
  288. # [20:11] <@tantek> if there is no objection
  289. # [20:11] <manu-home> tantek: I'll need suggestions, edits, text from you
  290. # [20:11] <manu-home> great
  291. # [20:11] <manu-home> no, that sounds perfect.
  292. # [20:11] <manu-home> order of operations:
  293. # [20:11] <@tantek> manu - would you be ok with us developing/iterating this draft on the microformats wiki?
  294. # [20:11] <manu-home> that would be fine
  295. # [20:11] <manu-home> you're a part of HTML WG, Tantek?
  296. # [20:11] <@tantek> from which we can ship snapshots to HTMLWG as needed?
  297. # [20:11] <@tantek> manu, yes
  298. # [20:12] <manu-home> ok, good, no IPR issues then.
  299. # [20:12] <manu-home> tantek: sounds like a plan.
  300. # [20:12] <@tantek> not only that, but just as WHATWG has a better copyright license that W3C, so does microformats.org
  301. # [20:12] * manu-home nods.
  302. # [20:12] <@tantek> WHATWG uses MIT license, microformats.org uses CC public domain + CC0
  303. # [20:12] <@tantek> this is a good thing
  304. # [20:13] <@tantek> I think many folks will express sympathy with this style of spec development
  305. # [20:13] <manu-home> 1) Julian drafts e-mail to HTML WG, Manu and Tantek review, give feedback. Julian sends @profile e-mail to HTML WG.
  306. # [20:13] <manu-home> 2) Tantek and Manu edit uF wiki with spec text.
  307. # [20:13] <manu-home> 3) Manu puts a snapshot of spec text on uF wiki into a format that HTML WG will be okay with.
  308. # [20:13] <mwunsch> Question about Vcards, is there a vCard validator? I've exported a vcard from my parser, and it looks totally correct, but apple says 'No importable cards found'
  309. # [20:13] <@tantek> ok, so just so I can start a stub, would /wiki/html5-profile be ok? or alternative short name suggestions?
  310. # [20:14] <manu-home> tantek: that works for me.
  311. # [20:14] <reschke> html-profile?
  312. # [20:14] <reschke> no 5?
  313. # [20:14] <@tantek> mwunsch - yeah, vCard validation is a problem
  314. # [20:14] <@tantek> reschke - I suggest the 5 just to show the focus
  315. # [20:14] <manu-home> hrm, no 5 would be good if we intend this to apply to HTML4.01 as well.
  316. # [20:14] * manu-home smiles
  317. # [20:14] <@tantek> the normative bits apply to 5
  318. # [20:14] <mwunsch> tantek -- It's odd: Apple recognizes this as a vCard, I am able to view it as a vCard in Quick Look; but I am unable to import it into my address book
  319. # [20:15] <reschke> manu: http://etherpad.com/cUatuLNdYH
  320. # [20:15] <@tantek> it's fine to have the informative errata in the same document that applies to previous versions of HTML and XHTML
  321. # [20:16] <@tantek> mwunsch - that is very odd - have you tried converting the same hCard using H2VX and looked at the vCard it produces?
  322. # [20:16] <@tantek> do a file comparison?
  323. # [20:16] <mwunsch> let me try that
  324. # [20:16] <manu-home> ok, I have to run - anything else before I leave?
  325. # [20:17] <@tantek> manu - ok I'll start drafting it. unless there is objection, I'll put you down as co-author and myself as editor for now.
  326. # [20:20] * Joins: mwunsch_ (~mwunsch@38.105.146.82)
  327. # [20:21] <reschke> do we want to give an estimated ETA for a first draft?
  328. # [20:21] * Quits: mwunsch (~mwunsch@38.105.146.82) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  329. # [20:21] * mwunsch_ is now known as mwunsch
  330. # [20:25] <reschke> man, I love etherpad. Start it, write a sentence, and let other people do the rest.
  331. # [20:25] * manu-home snickers.
  332. # [20:26] <manu-home> that was a trap, wasn't it.
  333. # [20:26] <reschke> always
  334. # [20:26] <reschke> but then it's evening over here, and I already had my first beer.
  335. # [20:26] <reschke> Should I send this?
  336. # [20:26] <manu-home> looks good to me
  337. # [20:26] <manu-home> tantek?
  338. # [20:27] <reschke> ...pasted into email to the two of you, in case Tantek is away
  339. # [20:28] <reschke> he's probably already drafting
  340. # [20:30] * reschke goes back to RFC editing for now
  341. # [20:31] * manu-home waves.
  342. # [20:31] * Parts: manu-home (~chatzilla@pool-74-107-169-117.ronkva.east.verizon.net)
  343. # [20:31] * reschke will be around a bit longer in case Tantek comes back
  344. # [20:34] <@tantek> here
  345. # [20:35] <@tantek> just doing some wiki editing
  346. # [20:44] * Quits: andersonorui (~andersono@c951a9bf.virtua.com.br) (Quit: Leaving...)
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  348. # [20:52] <@tantek> reschke - first draft (not complete) but posted: http://microformats.org/wiki/html5-profile
  349. # [21:03] * Joins: mkaply (~chatzilla@cpe-66-68-157-58.austin.res.rr.com)
  350. # [21:03] <reschke> superb
  351. # [21:04] <reschke> maybe we should put that into the email as well?
  352. # [21:05] <@tantek> nah - I think it's too incomplete to be worthy of the HTMLWG's attention at this time
  353. # [21:05] <@tantek> the curious folks will find it
  354. # [21:05] <@tantek> I'm editing the etherpad with a few more details
  355. # [21:06] <reschke> right
  356. # [21:07] <@tantek> do we need to promise when a FPWD will be ready?
  357. # [21:08] <reschke> i think we should give an *estimate* for something that could be ready for FPWD.
  358. # [21:08] * Joins: manu-home (~chatzilla@pool-74-107-169-117.ronkva.east.verizon.net)
  359. # [21:08] <@tantek> how about we just say that a draft xn progress on the microformats wiki for those who are curious.
  360. # [21:08] <reschke> my experience is that it usually takes at least as long as we plan for.
  361. # [21:09] <manu-home> hey guys
  362. # [21:09] <@tantek> and say that we don't have an estimate for when a FPWD will be ready.
  363. # [21:09] <reschke> three weeks for an initial proposal should be ok
  364. # [21:09] <@tantek> hey manu
  365. # [21:09] * Joins: memload_ (~jamesjeff@5e0720a1.bb.sky.com)
  366. # [21:09] <@tantek> reschke - SXSW is in 3 weeks and I will be unable to commit to that
  367. # [21:09] <manu-home> The only concern I have is giving people a reason to question the work.
  368. # [21:09] <manu-home> I'll commit to 3 weeks from now.
  369. # [21:10] <reschke> if it's five week i'll be ok as well
  370. # [21:10] <@tantek> I'd rather say that we don't have a specific date for when a FPWD will be ready, but if there are f3 that are interested in seeing something sooner please speak up.
  371. # [21:10] <manu-home> if all it entails is copying text verbatim from uF wiki to HTML WG spec.
  372. # [21:10] <reschke> As long as it's clear that the three of use commit ourselves to do this.
  373. # [21:10] <manu-home> tantek: I'm fine with that as well.
  374. # [21:10] <@tantek> just saying that we're actively working on it in the open I think is sufficient
  375. # [21:11] <@tantek> that way people that care can read updates as they wish
  376. # [21:11] * Quits: memload__ (~jamesjeff@5ac8f055.bb.sky.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  377. # [21:11] <@tantek> without waiting for a FPWD
  378. # [21:11] <@tantek> and that also removes the need to commit to a particular date
  379. # [21:11] <@tantek> I'd rather push for a FPWD when we feel the contents are worthy, than a specific date.
  380. # [21:11] <reschke> yes, and we want to encourage (constructive) discussion anyway
  381. # [21:11] <@tantek> and transparent development
  382. # [21:12] <reschke> I'm ok with both.
  383. # [21:12] <manu-home> ditto
  384. # [21:13] <manu-home> I think we should give /some/ idea of how long we think this is going to take, though.
  385. # [21:13] <manu-home> we don't want to leave it open ended.
  386. # [21:13] <manu-home> especially since we're asking for an extension.
  387. # [21:13] <@tantek> we're not asking for an extension
  388. # [21:13] <reschke> something in between
  389. # [21:13] <reschke> :-)
  390. # [21:13] <@tantek> we should be very clear we are ok with amicably closing the issue
  391. # [21:13] <@tantek> that shows good faith up front
  392. # [21:14] <reschke> Can we say "by the end of March" and be done with that?
  393. # [21:14] * Quits: emrojo (~emrojo@2001:720:410:100f:212:3fff:fe22:bbaf) (Quit: Leaving.)
  394. # [21:14] <@tantek> we can say we hope to have a FPWD by the end of March, but will only propose it if we think the contents are worthy of it by then.
  395. # [21:14] <manu-home> we should make sure that by amicably closing the issue that we don't shut the door on @profile in any spec published via HTML WG first
  396. # [21:14] <@tantek> we don't because this is new information
  397. # [21:14] <@tantek> profile attribute on all elements is new information
  398. # [21:14] <reschke> manu: yes, that's why we're sending this proposal in the context of ISSE-55.
  399. # [21:15] <@tantek> I'm really not worried about door closings like that
  400. # [21:15] <manu-home> We should make sure that the chairs agree with us.
  401. # [21:15] <@tantek> why? I think the chairs are reasonable
  402. # [21:15] <reschke> I think by sending feedback in time we're ok.
  403. # [21:15] <@tantek> I don't think we need to worry about that frankly
  404. # [21:15] <@tantek> we shouldn't ask anyone to agree with us in advance for a proposal etc.
  405. # [21:15] <@tantek> I don't think that's reasonable
  406. # [21:16] <manu-home> hrm, I think there is some miscommunication going on here.
  407. # [21:16] <reschke> no, we don't ask for agreement; we just announce our plan.
  408. # [21:16] <manu-home> I think that we should very clearly state our plan.
  409. # [21:16] <manu-home> right.
  410. # [21:16] <@tantek> better to just say something like, we consider the generalization of the profile attribute to all elements to be new information and outside the scope of this current issue.
  411. # [21:16] <manu-home> I'd be fine with that.
  412. # [21:16] <manu-home> that would give anyone the opportunity to respond if they don't think that is the case.
  413. # [21:16] <@tantek> that way, we're clear what we mean, and transparent with future plans
  414. # [21:17] <@tantek> right
  415. # [21:17] * manu-home nods.
  416. # [21:17] <@tantek> much better to express expectation of good faith of other participants rather than attempt to bind people into agreeing IMHO
  417. # [21:17] <manu-home> we are in violent agreement.
  418. # [21:18] <@tantek> I think in general the chairs tend to look more favorably upon folks who help encourage more civil discussions/culture/community in the working group.
  419. # [21:18] <@tantek> Plus I think it helps set a good example.
  420. # [21:18] <manu-home> yup
  421. # [21:18] <manu-home> so, that clause should be added to the e-mail Julian.
  422. # [21:19] <reschke> so one more edit to the mail?
  423. # [21:19] <@tantek> I've been editing the etherpad directly - can we update there?
  424. # [21:20] <reschke> sure, that was the point
  425. # [21:20] <@tantek> manu - feel free to add scope and FPWD expectations language per the above
  426. # [21:30] * Parts: manu-home (~chatzilla@pool-74-107-169-117.ronkva.east.verizon.net)
  427. # [21:32] <mwunsch> tantek: The problem was, i was saving my output as .vcard, not .vcf
  428. # [21:32] <mwunsch> Not sure...why that was causing an issue though
  429. # [21:32] <mwunsch> But HMachine can successfully convert hcards to vcards
  430. # [21:32] <mwunsch> :-)
  431. # [21:32] <mwunsch> pushing to github now
  432. # [21:33] <@tantek> woohoo!
  433. # [21:33] <@tantek> thanks mwunsch
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  437. # [21:36] <@tantek> thanks manu and reschke - I think the html5-profile proposal is a good idea for many reasons
  438. # [21:36] <@tantek> a few more minor updates - but definitely in need of more work:
  439. # [21:36] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/html5-profile
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The end :)