/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2010-04-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 07 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  37. # [09:56] <JonathanNeal> Hello my new friends!!!
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  41. # [10:23] <JonathanNeal> Do I always need to wrap hcard implementations in class="vcard", or is there another way to tell -whatever- that I'll be using hcard microformat conventions?
  42. # [10:23] <JonathanNeal> Particularly ... in HTML5
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  44. # [10:28] <@tantek> JonathanNeal - "vcard" is the root class name of an hCard
  45. # [10:29] <@tantek> so yes - that's always how you indicate the presence of an hCard
  46. # [10:33] <JonathanNeal> So is the logo on my website a good candidate for hcard?
  47. # [10:35] <JonathanNeal> I thought at first http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page was using microformatting on their logo --- but there's no vcard, so they're not (in that case)
  48. # [10:38] <csarven> JonathanNeal That might be due to wiki markup. No one got around to changing it. I would say the site logo, along with base information like fn, is a good candidate for hCard.
  49. # [10:38] <csarven> Generally site logos are also links to the root of the site, so you could use url in there too
  50. # [10:41] <csarven> tantek Thanks for your response on rel=contact. Much clear. I guess I was a bit unclear on the real need to indicate someone is a contact (someone that I can get a hold of). Hence, I leaned towards the basic acknowledgement of what a contact is in my assumption i.e., claiming someone is a contact because I had a previous engagement with them, I've checked them out, and they are okay. I didn't mean to emphasis on "friendship"
  51. # [10:42] <csarven> Thanks for the update. Seems trivial at first but I admit, it threw me off :)
  52. # [10:46] <csarven> JonathanNeal http://csarven.ca/logo-identity-in-address-and-document-heading might interest you. It is one way of marking it up.
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  61. # [12:33] <uf-wiki-visitor> Is this where I can get help with microformats?
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  78. # [16:21] <JonathanNeal> Hi all!
  79. # [16:21] <mwunsch> hello
  80. # [16:27] <JonathanNeal> Are there any instances where I can properly use hcard markup without the class="vcard" wrapper? Say, for my website logo?
  81. # [16:28] <singpolyma> JonathanNeal: You can use semantic classnames wherever they make sense, but it's not an hCard without the class=vcard wrapper
  82. # [16:28] <singpolyma> Also.. didn't you ask that last night?
  83. # [16:29] <JonathanNeal> csarven mentioned that it was a good candidate for hCard, but I wasn't sure if hCard was totally required at the time, because I had seen somewhere that you could link to the hCard profile instead.
  84. # [16:30] <JonathanNeal> However, this feature is not enabled in HTML5, so I was just making sure :)
  85. # [16:30] <singpolyma> What feature? HTML5 is fully compatible with all microformats (and HTML4)
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  88. # [16:32] <JonathanNeal> singpolyma, http://microformats.org/wiki/xmdp-brainstorming#publisher_linking_to_root_class_name
  89. # [16:33] <singpolyma> JonathanNeal: Oh, profile is deprecated, sure. No one ever used it anyway
  90. # [16:34] <JonathanNeal> Okay, cool. I didn't know that. I'm just now dabbling in microformat adoption and hadn't heard much about it before now. I've been adapting HTML5 and WAI accessibility like nuts, and then I heard that Google was especially reading and parsing hCard data.
  91. # [16:35] <singpolyma> Sure. So, for it to be an hCard, you need class=vcard. You should use useful classnames like class=logo whether you want an hCard or not, though
  92. # [16:37] <JonathanNeal> Right, and I do which is actually what made it so appealing. I like the whole idea of it --- how many approved microformats are there?
  93. # [16:37] <singpolyma> http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page#Specifications
  94. # [16:38] <singpolyma> In practise, many of the drafts are well accepted as well
  95. # [16:38] <singpolyma> such as adr/hAtom/rel=home
  96. # [16:38] <@tantek> singpolyma - profile has been moved out of HTML5 and into a separate draft that is actually in development on the microformats wiki
  97. # [16:39] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/html5-profile
  98. # [16:40] <@tantek> just as microdata and other modular features of html5 were made into separate drafts
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  100. # [16:40] <singpolyma> ... Isn't that basically like the RDFa approach of "no, it doesn't validate, but it looks good to me" ?
  101. # [16:42] <JonathanNeal> Is there already an html5 port of the hcard creator?
  102. # [16:43] <singpolyma> JonathanNeal: "port"? Again... the html4 markup should be pretty much what you want
  103. # [16:44] <JonathanNeal> actually, I think there could be some proper uses of address, tel, etc
  104. # [16:44] <singpolyma> Examples?
  105. # [16:45] <JonathanNeal> Sure, but gimme a minute to do something else (sorry, just a moment)
  106. # [16:58] <JonathanNeal> Okay, back!
  107. # [16:59] <JonathanNeal> So, right now what is <div class="adr" /> in the hCard Creator could be <address /> or <address class="adr" /> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-address-element
  108. # [17:00] <singpolyma> The address semantics don't really match class="adr" too well
  109. # [17:00] <singpolyma> "The address element must not be used to represent arbitrary addresses (e.g. postal addresses)"
  110. # [17:00] <JonathanNeal> I'm not sure in your spec if the element negates the additional classname (in the way that aria roles are not required on elements which inherently contain them (eg. <nav role="navigation" /> can just be <nav>)
  111. # [17:01] <JonathanNeal> Well, that's all relative to whether or not the contact content is relevant.
  112. # [17:01] <singpolyma> <address> doesn't mean a mailing address, though. it means "some contact information"
  113. # [17:01] <singpolyma> The *whole vcard* could be in <address> *if* appropriate, but the street address part of it is no more contact information than the rest
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  115. # [17:02] <JonathanNeal> Right.
  116. # [17:02] <JonathanNeal> No, I agree.
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  118. # [17:04] <JonathanNeal> Now, time would be appropriate over abbr with hCalendar, yes?
  119. # [17:04] <singpolyma> yes
  120. # [17:04] <singpolyma> I do that
  121. # [17:05] <singpolyma> Parsers do not currently support it much, but I do <time class="dtstart" datetime="...">...
  122. # [17:06] <JonathanNeal> Example parsers?
  123. # [17:07] <singpolyma> http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers
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  125. # [17:08] <JonathanNeal> Thanks for all the newb help :)
  126. # [17:08] <singpolyma> np :)
  127. # [17:17] <JonathanNeal> Pardon those in both #whatwg and here, but I'm wondering how microdata and microformat work together in HTML5, or if they do.
  128. # [17:19] <singpolyma> Microdata seems to be a reinvention of microformats for no good reason at all :)
  129. # [17:19] <singpolyma> I ignore it
  130. # [17:19] <singpolyma> And hope it will go away
  131. # [17:21] <JonathanNeal> Well, it could have reason - it would allow microformats to use their own namespace outside the classname.
  132. # [17:21] <singpolyma> That's silly. Microformats don't just blindly use class, they use HTML features according to spec (such as rel, alt, class, etc)
  133. # [17:22] <JonathanNeal> Not that it's required or best practice that they are, but I can see its use given the popular use of classnames for design modules, vs the clarity microformats separated out from these modules.
  134. # [17:22] <JonathanNeal> singpolyma, I agree completely, it's more for those other classnames developers use for styling, ala oocss
  135. # [17:23] <singpolyma> Well. (1) Doing that is IMHO wrong (2) You can do both, since you can have an arbitrary number of classes on any element
  136. # [17:24] <JonathanNeal> You could (potentially) have a long list that is difficult to parse, whereas moving them to their own namespace defines them. I hope I'm not being vague and just coming across as an arguer.
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  138. # [17:24] <singpolyma> hard to parse? Classes are space-separated... no parsing magic at all. it's just className.split(/\s+/)
  139. # [17:26] <JonathanNeal> I can see both sides. You can't just give every popular module its own properties, otherwise a css layout like blueprint or 960grid could also lay claim to some arbitrary properties too.
  140. # [17:27] <mwunsch> As a parser creator, I can tell you, it's not difficult to parse at all
  141. # [17:27] <singpolyma> I think by properties you mean attributes
  142. # [17:27] <JonathanNeal> mwunsch, what do you parse?
  143. # [17:27] <JonathanNeal> singpolyma, yes (I corrected my verbage toward the end)
  144. # [17:28] <mwunsch> I created a microformat parser in the Ruby programming language: http://microformats.org/wiki/prism
  145. # [17:28] <JonathanNeal> Actually, I didn't ... in my head I did.
  146. # [17:32] <csarven> re: adr in <address>. That is perfectly if fine if and only if the adr information a way to get a hold of the contact about the document.
  147. # [17:32] <JonathanNeal> is address per document or section?
  148. # [17:32] <JonathanNeal> *might be a question for whatwg*
  149. # [17:32] <singpolyma> JonathanNeal: per <body> or per <article> :)
  150. # [17:33] <singpolyma> but I would *never* use it for just the mailing address, I would use it for the whole hCard
  151. # [17:33] <mwunsch> per sectioning group, is my understanding
  152. # [17:33] <JonathanNeal> Well, section, article, and aside are meant to be independantly distributable content from the site.
  153. # [17:33] <JonathanNeal> So I would think if one works, then all do.
  154. # [17:33] <mwunsch> Yeah
  155. # [17:34] <singpolyma> "The address element represents the contact information for its nearest article or body element ancestor" -- http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-address-element
  156. # [17:34] <singpolyma> article and body only
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  159. # [17:38] <mwunsch> fascinating. good find singpolyma
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  165. # [18:36] <JonathanNeal> back!
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  172. # [20:48] <JonathanNeal> Does the hCard microformat Validator not recognize vcard when it is a classname along side others?
  173. # [20:49] <JonathanNeal> Is that a bug or by design?
  174. # [20:52] <JonathanNeal> Or am I just an idiot and accidentally put my vcard in id="".
  175. # [20:52] <JonathanNeal> Oh, oh, I know!
  176. # [20:54] <mwunsch> you win!
  177. # [20:56] <JonathanNeal> Say I have a site title and a site slogan, is there microformating for that slogan?
  178. # [20:57] <JonathanNeal> Another example, say I have a site title and a page title, is there microformating for that page title? To be more specific, say the site title is "Nike", the slogan is "Don't do it" and the page title is "Go away"
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  182. # [21:03] <singpolyma> JonathanNeal: <hgroup> with <h1> and <h2> ?
  183. # [21:03] <JonathanNeal> singpolyma, indeed! hgroup class="vcard" id="heading"
  184. # [21:04] <singpolyma> <h1 class="org"> I guess, if you want an hCard there, yeah
  185. # [21:04] <singpolyma> id="heading" seems redundant
  186. # [21:09] <JonathanNeal> Well, and hgroup element has a native heading role, and when I choose ID's for the page (occuring once in the entire document) I usually use the the role name.
  187. # [21:10] <JonathanNeal> As if to say "this is the primary use of this role on this page"
  188. # [21:10] <singpolyma> Your call. it probably doesn't need any kind of id
  189. # [21:10] * singpolyma << markup minimalist
  190. # [21:20] <JonathanNeal> If I never intended to have another header or hgroup on the page, sure, but #ids are easy.
  191. # [21:27] <singpolyma> :P
  192. # [21:29] <JonathanNeal> So, is there a proper microformat for a slogan?
  193. # [21:29] <JonathanNeal> or some other secondard title
  194. # [21:29] <singpolyma> ... use an <hgroup> for a secondary title
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  196. # [21:37] <JonathanNeal> <hgroup class="vcard" id="heading"><h1 class="site-title fn org">Nike</h1><h2 class="page-title ?">Don't Do Anything</h2></hgroup>
  197. # [21:37] <JonathanNeal> s/page-title/site-slogan
  198. # [21:39] <singpolyma> The only thing in hCard that even close to fits is "note" ... but that information doesn't really need to be included anyway... who puts company slogans in an addressbook?
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  205. # [22:10] <JonathanNeal> agents?
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The end :)