/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2010-04-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 08 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  6. # [00:11] <JonathanNeal> Where can I get the descriptions of all the microformat classnames?
  7. # [00:12] <JonathanNeal> Well, I guess I'll just go by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCard#Properties
  8. # [00:17] <singpolyma> The microformat spec pages usually list all of them. Otherwise, the original spec (as you said, vCard in the case of hCard) is a good place to look
  9. # [00:17] <singpolyma> Also... don't make the mistake of thinking microformats are tied to classnames. Different ones use different elements/attributes based on what is correct semantically
  10. # [00:18] <JonathanNeal> Well, I've been putting together a test page @ http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-wai/
  11. # [00:25] <singpolyma> <div class="vcard" id="main-document" role="document">
  12. # [00:25] <singpolyma> srsly?
  13. # [00:25] <singpolyma> A div wrapping the whole document? That's sort of evil
  14. # [00:26] <JonathanNeal> I know.
  15. # [00:26] <JonathanNeal> Well, a div wrapping the whole document isn't evil.
  16. # [00:27] <singpolyma> Also, <div id=content><div id=main-content> ? That seems just... silly
  17. # [00:27] <JonathanNeal> Many times you'll find sites have a dockbar or popout web application that sits aside the main document (main document includes the document heading, navigation, and main content)
  18. # [00:28] <JonathanNeal> Well, breadcrumbs are part of the page's content, but not part of the main content since they are particular to each page, so they would go inside content.
  19. # [00:28] <singpolyma> That sort of thing should be in an <aside> probably :) Any anyway, this is a div wrapping the entire <body>
  20. # [00:28] <singpolyma> breadcrumbs are navigation
  21. # [00:28] <singpolyma> Also, the email in the footer could be an hCard
  22. # [00:29] <JonathanNeal> s/main content/site content (multipage)
  23. # [00:29] <singpolyma> Oh, except that you've made the whole page one giant hCard... which seems silly... and they don't nest well
  24. # [00:30] <JonathanNeal> Sure ... I think the hCard implementation is the most shady, and it's a v1 - which is why I shared it.
  25. # [00:30] <JonathanNeal> singpolyma, I agree.
  26. # [00:30] <singpolyma> here, one sec
  27. # [00:31] <JonathanNeal> I can defend every use of a div because of how it will help me organize a variety of content and make it most accessible. However, I agree with everything you're saying about my hCard work.
  28. # [00:31] <JonathanNeal> It was more to see if I could create a page that is also an hCard.
  29. # [00:31] <singpolyma> if you're in html5, a div is almost always wrong
  30. # [00:33] <JonathanNeal> I would disagree, or else roles would be useless.
  31. # [00:34] <JonathanNeal> organizing content on a page and sectioning indepedently-distributable content are two very different things.
  32. # [00:35] <singpolyma> all content is indepedently distributable :P
  33. # [00:36] <JonathanNeal> So how do you organize the main content of a page that is all the section/articles on a particular page?
  34. # [00:36] <singpolyma> All the sections/articles in body are the content of a page...
  35. # [00:36] <JonathanNeal> They will only belong to body, which is nice and minimalist, but it will make them difficult to assign role="main"
  36. # [00:38] <singpolyma> so assign role=main to body...
  37. # [00:38] <singpolyma> role=main is mostly a hack to get around people who do it wrong anyway
  38. # [00:39] <JonathanNeal> I think we may feel the same way about a lot of things, but we're trying to accomplish two different things.
  39. # [00:39] <singpolyma> http://pastie.org/908420
  40. # [00:39] <JonathanNeal> I'm trying to write something that can be hugely extendable in the shortest, most accessible code possible. I'm accounting for a portal, where they may be different and multiple headings, groups of articles, types of navigation (sitemap, page breadcrumb, webapp sitemap), etc.
  41. # [00:40] <singpolyma> groups of articles are a <section>
  42. # [00:41] <JonathanNeal> Yes, but sometimes the body header describes the content on the page and how it is different than the multipage.
  43. # [00:41] <JonathanNeal> eg Jonathan Neal | Home
  44. # [00:41] <singpolyma> sure... hence the body-level <header>
  45. # [00:41] <JonathanNeal> So you'd have to move "Home" into the <h1> inside the first <section>, which would be after your heading and navigation --- and that wouldn't organize the content well, especially not for styling, which I admit I account for.
  46. # [00:42] <singpolyma> Why? Home is a part of the heading for all the everything on the page
  47. # [00:44] <JonathanNeal> So then you would group all of those multiple articles on the page into one section
  48. # [00:44] <JonathanNeal> And that would just be an untitled section?
  49. # [00:45] <singpolyma> If that's semantically what you want, then yes. There is no need for that usually
  50. # [00:45] <JonathanNeal> ps I love what you've shown me on the pastie and I'm working it in right now.
  51. # [00:45] <JonathanNeal> It's useful to group multiple articles / sections / applications on a page, especially in a portal.
  52. # [00:46] <JonathanNeal> Visual organization is important, and that can require those divs and spans.
  53. # [00:46] <singpolyma> yes, just not *all* of them. Any time every single thing in body is in one tag, it's probably wrong... <body> can contain content for a reason
  54. # [00:46] <JonathanNeal> It does, that div can be one of many in the body.
  55. # [00:46] <singpolyma> Any styling should be possible with any markup. Give or take
  56. # [00:47] <singpolyma> check out the markup (non-HTML5) on https://theveeb.com/ ... it's nothing like you probably expect
  57. # [00:47] <JonathanNeal> <body><div id="control-panel" role="application" /><div id="main-document" /><div id="chat-bar" role="application" />
  58. # [00:47] <JonathanNeal> s/id="main-document" role="document"
  59. # [00:48] <singpolyma> control panel and chat bar are probably <aside> control panel may be <nav> depending what's in it
  60. # [00:48] <singpolyma> even if they are divs, the main document doesn't need to be in a div just because they are
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  63. # [01:22] <JonathanNeal> Well, it's a nice way to organize and style it.
  64. # [01:22] <JonathanNeal> I've updated the page using your suggestions. I like it!
  65. # [01:24] <singpolyma> :)
  66. # [01:25] <singpolyma> I'm not sure <a class="include"> can validly have text content. The whole point is supposed to be for when you don't want there to be text content
  67. # [01:26] <singpolyma> Also, I'm not sure if you can include an id that is not the actual element with the data you want...
  68. # [01:26] <singpolyma> in this case, you actually want the <a> but are including the parent <h1>
  69. # [01:27] <singpolyma> also, you now have still the two <div>s *and* have added a <section> inside... that's *more* cruft, not less :P
  70. # [01:27] <singpolyma> Aside from that, looks pretty good
  71. # [01:32] <JonathanNeal> Nothing changed with the <div>s and <section.s
  72. # [01:33] <JonathanNeal> singpolyma, well I am following the conventions, maybe not quite the way you intended, but they certainly work and they validate.
  73. # [01:35] <JonathanNeal> The other thing is that, if I remove the text from that anchor, then the anchor is no longer accessible.
  74. # [01:35] <JonathanNeal> Which is the point of anchors with hrefs.
  75. # [01:48] <JonathanNeal> I swapped out the anchor with an object, since it seemed more apt.
  76. # [01:50] <JonathanNeal> It's in the notes and issues "Unlike the hyperlink pattern, the object is not believed to cause problems in assistive technology when fallback text is absent."
  77. # [01:51] <JonathanNeal> It would have been nice to use <link> but alas, no allowed.
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  92. # [04:53] <JonathanNeal> Hi all!
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  135. # [18:32] <JonathanNeal> hi all!
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The end :)