/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2010-12-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 01 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  13. # [11:51] <openstandards> anyone awake in the channel?
  14. # [11:52] <tobyink> yep
  15. # [12:09] <openstandards> tobyink, i'm trying to put together an hcard i'd like to mark up my sip address would i just have to use url or something else exist?
  16. # [12:11] <tobyink> you could be controversial and use "tel" (IIRC vCard 4.0 will support sip addresses in "TEL" properties). "url" is probably safer though.
  17. # [12:14] <openstandards> thanks, do it matter that i use url more than once thou? As it stands I'm using url for fn, jabber and soon to be sip
  18. # [12:15] <tobyink> You can have as many URLs as you like in hCard (and in vCard). Some software might theoretically only look at the first N values though.
  19. # [12:17] <openstandards> anyway of getting around that, is it a flaw?
  20. # [12:22] <tobyink> It's just a limitation. A GUI might just have a one line text field for displaying/editing a person's URL, so they might ignore all but the first URL. Another GUI might have three fields for URLs, so might display three. And so on.
  21. # [12:24] <tobyink> Front-load information. Put the most important information first. That's a good principle not just for microformats, but in general - it's taking advantage of how the human brain works.
  22. # [12:25] <tobyink> That way, whether it's a parser only looking at the first three addresses, or a human reader skimming the first few lines of an article, they still pick up the most salient information.
  23. # [12:27] <openstandards> is microdata meant to replace microformats?
  24. # [12:29] <tobyink> Microdata and RDFa were each designed to cover most of the same uses of microformats but to solve perceived problems with microformats.
  25. # [12:31] <tobyink> e.g. centralisation of development; difficulty of parsing microformats, leading to differing results in implementations.
  26. # [12:31] <openstandards> worked with both microformats and microdata looked at RDFa but i must admit at the time it confused me somewhat
  27. # [12:34] <openstandards> which would you choose for today's market?
  28. # [12:34] <tobyink> RDFa's main difference is that rather than having a tree-like data model, it's a web-like model - a "graph" in compsci-speak. However it's layered over (X)HTML which is inherently tree-like.
  29. # [12:35] <tobyink> This makes it very good at representing complex data, but somewhat more confusing than microformats for people coming from an HTML authoring background.
  30. # [12:36] <tobyink> I'd choose RDFa, but I'm on the W3C RDFa Working Group, so am probably biased. ;-)
  31. # [12:37] <openstandards> RDFa involves producing schemas doesn't it?
  32. # [12:38] <tobyink> No more than microformats involves producing microformat specifications.
  33. # [12:39] <openstandards> do you perhaps have a link to getting started with rdfa, might aswell learn something else
  34. # [12:42] <tobyink> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/introduction-to-rdfa/ and http://www.alistapart.com/articles/introduction-to-rdfa-ii/ are quite good.
  35. # [12:43] <@Phae> i think rdfa and microformats work well together, as i think tobyink might be getting towards. they both have good uses and aren't mutually exclusive.
  36. # [12:44] <openstandards> yeah, i suppose i'd have to use xsl to parse it from xml to microformats so humans understand it am i correct in thinking that?
  37. # [12:47] <tobyink> XML and XSLT are not really anything to do with RDF/RDFa. (Which is not to say they can't be used together, but it's not helpful to mentally group them.)
  38. # [12:49] <openstandards> thanks for making me aware of that
  39. # [12:52] <tobyink> RDFa is embedded in human-readable web pages, like microformats and microdata. (With RDFa 1.1 it's being made more generic so can be used in any XML-or-XML-like format - e.g. SVG, Atom.).
  40. # [13:03] <openstandards> tobyink, is this a good link just to get an understanding? http://sw-app.org/mic.xhtml
  41. # [13:16] <tobyink> yes, mostly. mhausenblas is perhaps a little over the top. I quite like http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.html too
  42. # [13:18] <openstandards> do you have to serve your content in xhtml, as i thought that was bad due to the nature of browsers and webservers not serving it correctly
  43. # [13:22] <tobyink> RDFa 1.0 is officially defined in XHTML only, but in practise works fine in HTML too. RDFa 1.1 is being officially defined in both XHTML and HTML.
  44. # [13:29] <openstandards> http://www.3kbo.com/examples/rdfa/simple.html <--- i know thats using html 5 and is part of a working draft however whats your personal opinion?
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  48. # [13:47] <tobyink> yes, it looks reasonable, though I'd probably replace about="#minoan-figurines" with about="images/minoan-figurines.jpg".
  49. # [13:48] <tobyink> And, from a general HTML best practises perspective, also replace <article><a name="crete" /> with <article id="crete">.
  50. # [13:50] <tobyink> Surely people aren't still trying to target pre-id-attribute browsers?
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  55. # [15:04] <openstandards> tobyink, must say smart lad just came across your personal website
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  63. # [18:38] <DanC> hmm... how to explain why use IRC? It feels like explaining "why breathe?" to me.
  64. # [18:41] <DanC> http://microformats.org/wiki/irc seems to assume motivation.
  65. # [18:41] <DanC> http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/19402944/MyNextStartup says "Everyone in the company must be at least a little experienced with IRC and should use the company internal IRC channels ..." but doesn't say why.
  66. # [18:42] <DanC> I'm setting up a new dev group; we're co-located, so the motivation to use IM/chat is less; the head of the group isn't in the habit, but the new guy we just hired is, and I'm trying to use that to advance the cause.
  67. # [18:43] <DanC> the head of the group picked up the wiki way quite quickly.
  68. # [18:43] <DanC> cf http://www.madmode.com/2010/08/setting-up-project-tracking-with-trac.html
  69. # [18:45] * DanC listens to the crickets chirp, wishing there were someone to bounce these ideas off of...
  70. # [18:45] <@Phae> tantek isn't here. so what.
  71. # [18:45] <DanC> hi.
  72. # [18:45] <@Phae> is that a very veiled microformats question?
  73. # [18:46] <DanC> doesn't need to be tantek
  74. # [18:46] <DanC> only inasmuch as I like the way the microformats community works
  75. # [18:48] <@Phae> I guess he just likes IRC because it's an easy shared discussion space
  76. # [18:48] <@Phae> but i dunno why more specifically
  77. # [18:49] <DanC> do you use IRC because you want to participate in microformats stuff? or did you use it before uf?
  78. # [18:49] <@Phae> I've always used IRC
  79. # [18:49] <@Phae> it's coincidence
  80. # [18:50] <DanC> yeah, I've been using it for so long that I'm struggling to explain why. hmm.
  81. # [18:53] <DanC> perhaps I'll content myself with... "freenode is quite popular with community based projects" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Relay_Chat#Networks
  82. # [18:54] <@Phae> we log this channel
  83. # [18:54] <@Phae> that's useful
  84. # [18:54] <DanC> quite.
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  89. # [19:30] <mwunsch> http://twitter.com/#!/the_tech_bubble
  90. # [19:54] * DanC eventually appeals to http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?MentalStateCalledFlow to explain "why IRC?"
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The end :)