/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2011-07-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 14 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  6. # [02:03] * Topic is 'http://microformats.org/wiki/irc - if you are new here, add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people'
  7. # [02:03] * Set by tantek on Mon Apr 09 17:30:07
  8. # [02:03] -ChanServ- [#microformats] Welcome to #microformats. Logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats
  9. # [02:03] #microformats url is http://microformats.org
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  13. # [04:42] * Topic is 'http://microformats.org/wiki/irc - if you are new here, add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people'
  14. # [04:42] * Set by tantek on Mon Apr 09 17:30:07
  15. # [04:42] -ChanServ- [#microformats] Welcome to #microformats. Logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats
  16. # [04:42] #microformats url is http://microformats.org
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  24. # [07:18] * Topic is 'http://microformats.org/wiki/irc - if you are new here, add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people'
  25. # [07:18] * Set by tantek on Mon Apr 09 17:30:07
  26. # [07:18] -asimov.freenode.net:#microformats- [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
  27. # [07:18] -ChanServ- [#microformats] Welcome to #microformats. Logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats
  28. # [07:18] #microformats url is http://microformats.org
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  35. # [09:49] * Topic is 'http://microformats.org/wiki/irc - if you are new here, add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people'
  36. # [09:49] * Set by tantek on Mon Apr 09 17:30:07
  37. # [09:49] -ChanServ- [#microformats] Welcome to #microformats. Logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats
  38. # [09:49] #microformats url is http://microformats.org
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  44. # [12:38] * Topic is 'http://microformats.org/wiki/irc - if you are new here, add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people'
  45. # [12:38] * Set by tantek on Mon Apr 09 17:30:07
  46. # [12:38] -ChanServ- [#microformats] Welcome to #microformats. Logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats
  47. # [12:38] #microformats url is http://microformats.org
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  51. #
  52. # Session Start: Thu Jul 14 20:03:45 2011
  53. # Session Ident: #microformats
  54. # [20:03] * Now talking in #microformats
  55. # [20:03] * Topic is 'http://microformats.org/wiki/irc - if you are new here, add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people'
  56. # [20:03] * Set by tantek on Mon Apr 09 17:30:07
  57. # [20:03] -asimov.freenode.net:#microformats- [freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
  58. # [20:03] -ChanServ- [#microformats] Welcome to #microformats. Logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats
  59. # [20:03] #microformats url is http://microformats.org
  60. # [20:08] <hober> I'll add a comment linking to this IRC transcript
  61. # [20:08] <Loqi> [[h2vx]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=h2vx&diff=44232&oldid=44001&rcid=57354 * Tantek * (+171) noted that HTML5 time element support was added to dev.h2vx.com on 2010-09-02, follow-up to one comment
  62. # [20:08] <@tantek> This is the URL for H2VX support of HTML5: http://microformats.org/wiki/h2vx#HTML5_support
  63. # [20:09] <@tantek> so I think this is just a matter of mis or lack of communication
  64. # [20:09] <hober> krijnh: krijnhoetmer.nl is down :(
  65. # [20:09] <@tantek> folks involved in microformats are absolutely interested in the <time> element, and are actively implementing / deploying support for it.
  66. # [20:10] <krijnh> hober: I know, IP changed, will be back soon
  67. # [20:10] <singpolyma> I love from the h2vx wiki there: "I'm a crazy XML person and my markup is 100% well formed XML, please don't tidy, please break and fail to process if it's not well formed"
  68. # [20:11] <hober> krijnh: is it still logging? As in, when the DNS change propagates, will I be able to link to the discussion above?
  69. # [20:11] <@tantek> Brian Suda and I added the support for <time> (as well as other new HTML5 elements) to X2V and then deployed it in http://dev.h2vx.com/ last year (2010-09-02) for anyone to try testing out - we figured we would give it some time there before flipping the switch and deploying it to the primary use URL at http://h2vx.com/ cc: hsivonen hixie
  70. # [20:12] <@tantek> hober - for now feel free to quote and attribute directly
  71. # [20:12] <singpolyma> we need an h2vx for hAtom
  72. # [20:12] <@tantek> singpolyma - do you have an XSLT for hAtom to Atom that "works" ?
  73. # [20:13] <singpolyma> tantek: no :(
  74. # [20:13] * singpolyma is not an xslt wizard
  75. # [20:13] <singpolyma> I should try writing something
  76. # [20:14] <Loqi> agreed.
  77. # [20:14] * singpolyma adds that to giant heap of things I should do
  78. # [20:14] <@tantek> well if you have any kind of PHP-friendly code to convert hAtom to Atom, let me know (as in add it to http://microformats.org/wiki/h2vx#feedback ) and we can see about supporting a /atom path on h2vx.com
  79. # [20:14] <singpolyma> hmm... php, eh? I could do it in PHP
  80. # [20:15] <krijnh> hober: it disconnected a lot the last couple of days, hopefully it stays connected now
  81. # [20:15] <@tantek> right - I just said XSLT because that's what the rest of the converters on H2VX are written in
  82. # [20:15] <singpolyma> right
  83. # [20:15] <krijnh> hober: but if you send me your own log, I'll add it
  84. # [20:15] <@tantek> singpolyma - you could start with the XSLT hCalendar -> iCalendar and try converting it to handle hAtom -> Atom
  85. # [20:17] * Joins: ericduran (~ericduran@173-203-243-241.static.cloud-ips.com)
  86. # [20:19] <hober> krijnh: I don't keep logs [that's what your wonderful site is for! :)], but perhaps someone else here does...
  87. # [20:19] <krijnh> Logs, or just a copy of what you've just said :)
  88. # [20:19] <hober> yeah, i have all of this in my scroll buffer, so I can add something on that bug
  89. # [20:20] <singpolyma> I only log when I'm away, and things with my nick in them :)
  90. # [20:20] <@tantek> krijnh - I thought you logged continuously, and then only published the channels that people requested?
  91. # [20:20] <krijnh> tantek: not if my connection drops :)
  92. # [20:20] <krijnh> We switched from adsl to fibre stuff, but had some problems with that
  93. # [20:23] <@tantek> singpolyma - I'm not sure about either <data> or a new global attribute because I think both would encourage lazy double-encoding of data which is a DRY violation.
  94. # [20:23] <singpolyma> tantek: example?
  95. # [20:23] <@tantek> instead I think the <time> element approach is correct. prove the need for double-encoding on a case by case basis, and then create an element for each proven case.
  96. # [20:23] <@tantek> like I want a <number> element for example
  97. # [20:24] <singpolyma> <time> seems very overly specific, like the img/video/audio debacle
  98. # [20:24] <@tantek> since it's clear from some of the examples where quantities or numbers are involved - e.g. hReview aggregate, that publishers use human or locale-specific numbers
  99. # [20:24] <@tantek> e.g. <number value="10000">10,000</number>
  100. # [20:25] <singpolyma> right. already that's showing a tendency towards tag proliferation. which Is why I would support a global attr
  101. # [20:25] <singpolyma> lest we end up with a billion tags
  102. # [20:25] <@tantek> <time> matches the use cases that have been demonstrated for dates and times, modulo the requested additions to it of course (which I still think are a good idea in general) http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element
  103. # [20:25] <@tantek> singpolyma - that's a false reductio absurdum
  104. # [20:26] <singpolyma> fine, leave out the last statement then
  105. # [20:26] <@tantek> because no matter how you slice it there will be a very limited number of specific data types that require dual representation
  106. # [20:26] <@tantek> I would be surprised if more than 3-4 elements were added ever for this.
  107. # [20:26] <singpolyma> possibly
  108. # [20:26] <singpolyma> I just see this as similar to the img/audio/video vs object problem
  109. # [20:27] <@tantek> duration can be solved by extending the existing time element to handle ISO8601 duration syntax: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/ISO_8601#Durations
  110. # [20:27] <singpolyma> yes
  111. # [20:27] <@tantek> (which is needed for example for hMedia and hAudio)
  112. # [20:28] <singpolyma> I certainly wouldn't oppose keeping <time>, because there's no precendent
  113. # [20:29] <singpolyma> but I have no problem with generalising either
  114. # [20:29] <@tantek> though I'm not entirely convinced by the human/developer usability of the ISO8601 duration syntax - which is why I haven't proposed it as an addition to <time>
  115. # [20:30] <singpolyma> well, time should support all of ISO8601 if that's the standard it's going to be based on, no?
  116. # [20:30] <@tantek> no - only the parts that have demonstrated use-cases
  117. # [20:30] <@tantek> like most "old" standards, ISO8601 is overdesigned
  118. # [20:30] <@tantek> and is best for picking and choosing from
  119. # [20:31] <@tantek> unless all features in a standard are based on documented/researched use-cases, it doesn't make sense to "support all of" that standard
  120. # [20:31] <singpolyma> not even for compatability?
  121. # [20:32] <@tantek> no - subsetting is better for compatibility - less work
  122. # [20:32] <@tantek> eventually you iterate on the standard to document the subset that actually works interoperably
  123. # [20:32] <@tantek> btw
  124. # [20:32] <@tantek> this is not very human friendly: PnYnMnDTnHnMnS
  125. # [20:32] <@tantek> but could be with a slight modification - it suffers from the same problem as unhyphenated uncoloned dates and times
  126. # [20:33] <singpolyma> yeah
  127. # [20:33] <@tantek> in fact I would use commas to make it readable
  128. # [20:33] <@tantek> e.g.
  129. # [20:33] <@tantek> PnY,nM,nD,nH,nM,nS
  130. # [20:33] <@tantek> as separators
  131. # [20:34] <@tantek> but only between components
  132. # [20:34] <@tantek> so you could still say P1M
  133. # [20:34] <@tantek> and I dislike the use of the "T" separator too - that's made ISO8601 datetimes less readable as well
  134. # [20:35] <singpolyma> agree
  135. # [20:35] <@tantek> better than that for durations would be to simply require months to use Mo
  136. # [20:35] <@tantek> and minutes to use Min
  137. # [20:35] <@tantek> both accepted abbreviations
  138. # [20:35] <singpolyma> ISO8601 wasn't really designed as a whole for standard humans
  139. # [20:36] <singpolyma> though bits of it (YYYY-MM-DD) standard humans can use
  140. # [20:36] <@tantek> even machine formats should be made as human-friendly as possible
  141. # [20:36] <@tantek> because humans (developers) have to understand, implement, test, maintain them
  142. # [20:36] <@tantek> we've learned that lesson with markup vs binary formats
  143. # [20:37] <singpolyma> somewhat
  144. # [20:37] * singpolyma currently works at google where everything is binary
  145. # [20:37] <@tantek> hah
  146. # [20:37] <@tantek> I'm talking specifically about formats for *human* content
  147. # [20:37] <@tantek> stuff humans author and generate
  148. # [20:37] <singpolyma> sure
  149. # [20:37] <@tantek> machine to machine sure - go crazy with the bits
  150. # [20:38] <@tantek> also the time interval / repeating interval syntax is horrible: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/ISO_8601#Time_intervals
  151. # [20:38] <singpolyma> number of bytes also used to be a big deal. still is in contexts the valley doesn't care about :)
  152. # [21:13] <@tantek> ok, duration proposal added to WHATWG wiki:
  153. # [21:13] <@tantek> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element#duration
  154. # [21:14] <@tantek> please feel free to add your +1 in support if you think it's a good idea to the discussion section: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element#duration_discussion cc: hober, singpolyma, KevinMarks, manu`
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  159. # [21:40] * Topic is 'http://microformats.org/wiki/irc - if you are new here, add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people'
  160. # [21:40] * Set by tantek on Mon Apr 09 17:30:07
  161. # [21:40] -ChanServ- [#microformats] Welcome to #microformats. Logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats
  162. # [21:40] #microformats url is http://microformats.org
  163. # [21:56] <@tantek> and posted to whatwg list
  164. # [22:01] * ericduran is now known as ericduran|afk
  165. # [22:29] <Loqi> [[rel-enclosure]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-enclosure&diff=44233&oldid=40109&rcid=57355 * Tantek * (+32) add brainstorming
  166. # [22:29] <Loqi> [[rel-enclosure]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-enclosure&diff=44234&oldid=44233&rcid=57356 * Tantek * (+2) /* See also */ *
  167. # [22:32] <Hixie> tantek: microformats input on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13240 would be helpful on that topic
  168. # [22:32] * ericduran|afk is now known as ericduran
  169. # Session Close: Fri Jul 15 00:00:00 2011

The end :)