/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2012-01-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 12 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:03] <@tantek> hober, yeah I saw that
  4. # [00:03] <@tantek> more NIH syndrome without any research
  5. # [00:04] <@tantek> the email to whatwg about it was sent last month and ignored
  6. # [00:04] <Hixie> ignored by whom?
  7. # [00:05] <Hixie> if you mean by me, i'm only up to e-mails from last june :-(
  8. # [00:05] <@tantek> ignored as in no one replied to it
  9. # [00:05] <@tantek> it's yet another reinvention of vcard4 vocabulary
  10. # [00:05] <@tantek> I should keep a count somewhere
  11. # [00:06] <@tantek> of everytime someone reinvents person schema/semantics
  12. # [00:06] <Loqi> yea
  13. # [00:06] <Hixie> autocompletetype is a reinvention of the RFC 3106 vocabulary, not the vCard vocabulary. :-)
  14. # [00:06] <@tantek> and if we keep count per company, I believe Google is in the lead
  15. # [00:07] <@tantek> Hixie, can you name any implementations of RFC 3106?
  16. # [00:07] <Hixie> google toolbar and netscape 6
  17. # [00:07] <Hixie> can you name any implementations of vcard4 for autocompletion?
  18. # [00:07] <@tantek> seriously? docs?
  19. # [00:08] <Hixie> docs for what?
  20. # [00:08] <@tantek> for google toolbar and netscape 6 implementing
  21. # [00:08] <Hixie> not off-hand
  22. # [00:08] <Hixie> search for "ecml google toolbar" and "ecml netscape"
  23. # [00:09] <Hixie> both give results
  24. # [00:09] <Hixie> i expect there are others, but i haven't looked into it
  25. # [00:09] <mkowens> There's even a test page for Google Toolbar for all the ECML Compliant Field Names: http://maettig.com/code/html/ecml_test_full.html
  26. # [00:10] <Hixie> i'm not convined authors care enough for it to be worth implementing anywhere, whatever the vocabulary
  27. # [00:10] <Hixie> whether it be one that reinvents ecml, or one the reinvents vcard that reinvents ecml :-)
  28. # [00:10] <@tantek> Hixie, 2426 predates 3106
  29. # [00:10] <mkowens> It would be difficult to convince most web developers to name their form fields semantically correct, but that's generally the case in a scenario where there has not yet been a really compelling reason to do so.
  30. # [00:11] <@tantek> so no, 3106 reinvents vCard
  31. # [00:11] <Hixie> tantek: 2426 is vcard3, you said vcard4
  32. # [00:11] <@tantek> I think I just said vcard
  33. # [00:12] <Hixie> <tantek> it's yet another reinvention of vcard4 vocabulary
  34. # [00:12] <@tantek> oh - sorry
  35. # [00:12] <@tantek> yes
  36. # [00:12] <@tantek> meant to just type vcard
  37. # [00:12] <@tantek> been thinking lots of vcard4 recently
  38. # [00:12] <@tantek> re-using it to fix ContactsAPI
  39. # [00:12] <Hixie> anyway my point was that the vocabulary that is most applicable here is ecml, not vcard
  40. # [00:12] <Hixie> vcard doesn't have shipping vs billing, credit card, etc, last i checked
  41. # [00:13] <@tantek> that's an interesting point to consider yes
  42. # [00:13] <@tantek> whether it is worth switching to a new vocabulary which itself unnecesarily forked from vcard
  43. # [00:13] <@tantek> Hixie, the microformats approach is to only add the new needed fields to what exists (e.g. vcard)
  44. # [00:14] <@tantek> rather than use a few new fields to throw in a whole new vocabulary
  45. # [00:14] <@tantek> i.e. 3106 screwed up by forking
  46. # [00:14] <@tantek> let's not propagate that mistake
  47. # [00:14] <@tantek> and on the contrary, let's correct for mistaken forking
  48. # [00:14] <Hixie> (ecml v1 is from 1999 or so; vcard1 is from 1995 or so)
  49. # [00:15] <Hixie> i don't think it makes much of a difference in this case, since i think the entire feature is likely DOA
  50. # [00:17] <mkowens> It seems to me that developers might best be served by using the vcard format for the base "contact" data and extend it with the ability to categorize a given set of vcard data with the type "Shipping", "Billing", or some other "type" that could then be used by whatever agent is doing the autofill can use the correct type of vcard for the autofill.
  51. # [00:18] <mkowens> Just my two cents.
  52. # [00:18] <@tantek> mkowens, indeed
  53. # [00:18] <@tantek> HIxie, by DOA do you mean in the spec? As the proposal claims that Chrome has already shipped it (yet another example of delayed-open tactics)
  54. # [00:18] <Hixie> how far from vcard is the proposed autocompletetype vocab?
  55. # [00:18] <Hixie> tantek: as in, just like with ecml, nobody will use it enough to make it worth it
  56. # [00:19] <@tantek> does it matter? it's clear from the proposal that the proposer didn't know about vcard, didn't research it etc.
  57. # [00:19] <Hixie> well it matters if what you care about is whether we have vocab forking, vs whether what you care about is berating people who are trying to improve the web :-)
  58. # [00:20] <mkowens> The tokens are somewhat similar, but the way it's structured is significantly different. There's no real structure to the token system.
  59. # [00:21] <Hixie> just the names, or the actual fields?
  60. # [00:21] <mkowens> Without any concept of inheritance via structural constraints, the specific names of tokens used to identify the items are more verbose in Autocompletetype than vCard.
  61. # [00:22] <Hixie> if it's just the names, then it's not a big deal, we can just define a mapping and then it's basically vcard
  62. # [00:22] <Hixie> if it's structured differently, that's a bigger problem
  63. # [00:22] <@tantek> yeah that would be a bigger problem, and is typically what happens
  64. # [00:22] <Hixie> (though only if anyone ever tries to use it)
  65. # [00:23] <@tantek> even if it is "just the names" the names given in the proposal should be rejected for being different for no reason (bike-shedding)
  66. # [00:24] <Hixie> i recommend approaching chrome directly to get them to fix the vocab
  67. # [00:25] <Hixie> if they get adoption, then the fact that they shipped will bias the spec towards what shipped, regardless of how ugly the names are
  68. # [00:25] <Hixie> and if they don't get adoption, it won't get into the spec, so i won't care either way what the names are :-)
  69. # [00:27] <@tantek> Hixie, biasing towards such delayed-open "oops we already shipped it" behavior just encourages it. That's not good for open standards development.
  70. # [00:27] <Hixie> it's not "oops we already shipped it", i told them to ship it because we need implementation experience.
  71. # [00:28] <Hixie> shipping experiments is how the web evolves
  72. # [00:28] <Hixie> you don't write standards before you ship
  73. # [00:28] <Hixie> mozilla does the same thing, and rightly so
  74. # [00:28] <Hixie> so does everyone else
  75. # [00:28] <@tantek> Hixie, not true
  76. # [00:29] <@tantek> Mozilla designs/documents in the open
  77. # [00:29] <@tantek> on wiki.mozilla.org
  78. # [00:29] <@tantek> *before* shipping
  79. # [00:29] <@tantek> whereas in this case the Chrome engineer posted to the WHATWG wiki *AFTER* shipping
  80. # [00:29] <@tantek> big difference
  81. # [00:29] <@tantek> open discussions before shipping is better for open standards than such closed-behind-doors then ship-and-propose techniques.
  82. # [00:30] <Hixie> *shrug*
  83. # [00:30] <Hixie> it's all the same to me
  84. # [00:30] <Hixie> what we need is implementation experience
  85. # [00:30] <Hixie> it doesn't really matter if you post stuff on a project wiki before or not
  86. # [00:31] <@tantek> it does - otherwise you're not working in the open
  87. # [00:31] <@tantek> and it's a shady tactic
  88. # [00:31] <Hixie> um...
  89. # [00:31] <Hixie> so MacIE was "shady"?
  90. # [00:32] <Hixie> fixes for mozilla security bugs are "shady"?
  91. # [00:32] <@tantek> no, having a closed to public discussions CSSWG was shady (in the shade)
  92. # [00:32] <Hixie> come now
  93. # [00:32] <Hixie> standards work should be open, sure
  94. # [00:32] <@tantek> Hixie, there's been quite a bit of good discussion of this
  95. # [00:32] <@tantek> e.g. http://hueniverse.com/2010/05/open-vs-fast-good-vs-evil-google-vs-facebook/
  96. # [00:32] <Hixie> standards work comes after experimental work
  97. # [00:33] <@tantek> and I wrote more about it here: http://tantek.com/2011/168/b1/practices-good-open-web-standards-development
  98. # [00:33] <@tantek> Hixie sometimes
  99. # [00:33] <@tantek> per fantasai's blog posts, innovation can come from many sources
  100. # [00:34] <@tantek> http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/weblog/2011/inside-csswg/
  101. # [00:35] <Hixie> i've nothing against people proposing things in public, indeed that's all i do
  102. # [00:36] <Hixie> but i think it's disingenuous to suggest that anyone doing experimental work without public participation (or at least public documentation prior to shipping) is "shady" ("of doubtful honesty")
  103. # [00:37] <Hixie> it's especially so for something like chrome where all the code is in the public eye within days of being writted and within weeks of shipping
  104. # [00:39] <mkowens> Maybe the reluctance in implementing before open discussion is had here is more about how harshly it can prejudice future work on whatever it is that is being experimented upon.
  105. # [00:40] <@tantek> Hixie, it's not transparent, which yes, is shady.
  106. # [00:41] <Hixie> tantek: you are fully aware that the word "shady" has more baggage than that.
  107. # [00:41] <Hixie> mkowens: it's _supposed_ to prejudice future work. That's what it's _for_.
  108. # [00:45] <mkowens> Hixie: I'm not saying it's wrong to use experimental implementations to influence future work. I'm saying that the fact that there was no "open discussion" prior to the experimental implementation makes it more like "open* discussion" as it immediately creates an incumbent environment that is difficult, if found to be suboptimal, escape.
  109. # [00:45] <mkowens> to escape from*
  110. # [00:47] <Hixie> i don't see that as a problem
  111. # [00:47] <Hixie> we fix the big issues, and we move on
  112. # [00:47] <Hixie> q.v. canvas
  113. # [00:47] <Hixie> that is a canonical example of something developed not in the open
  114. # [00:47] <Hixie> which we then discussed, fixed (in a way that broke safari quite badly!) the one or two major problems, and adopted the rest.
  115. # [00:48] <Hixie> sure, that means certain things were decided in ways that are suboptimal
  116. # [00:49] <Hixie> but that's better overall because it means it was based on real implemented experience
  117. # [00:49] <mkowens> Right, but one of the things that we, as people who influence the standards, have a responsibility to do is don't break the web. Leaving potential places for future work to "[break] Safari quite badly" is not something we should be encouraging.
  118. # [00:49] <Hixie> honestly even if there was "open discussion" on a project wiki before hand it wouldn't make much of a difference if any
  119. # [00:49] <mkowens> In most cases, I imagine it wouldn't.
  120. # [00:50] <Hixie> it's not like everyone is going to participate in mozilla newsgroup / wiki discussions, mostly only mozilla people are
  121. # [00:50] <mkowens> But there might be a handful of times where it might get fixed.
  122. # [00:50] <Hixie> the whole point of experimental shipped stuff is that it is experimental and can be broken if necessary
  123. # [00:50] <Hixie> it wouldn't be experimental if that wasn't the case
  124. # [00:50] <Hixie> it would just be a proprietary tech
  125. # [00:50] <@tantek> Hixie this statement " if there was "open discussion" on a project wiki before hand it wouldn't make much of a difference if any" is not true
  126. # [00:51] <Hixie> sure it is
  127. # [00:51] <@tantek> if that proposal had been made before shipping, it would have encouraged improvements
  128. # [00:51] <@tantek> rather than acting de facto
  129. # [00:51] <Hixie> it WAS made before shipping
  130. # [00:51] <@tantek> also with publishing research
  131. # [00:51] <Hixie> in code
  132. # [00:51] <@tantek> it makes a difference
  133. # [00:52] <@tantek> Hixie, not reasonable to expect everyone to watch everyone else's code commit logs
  134. # [00:52] <@tantek> code commits != discussion
  135. # [00:52] <Hixie> it's not like you would have noticed it if it was discussed in some public chrome dev list
  136. # [00:52] <@tantek> easier to fix dumb mistakes before they get coded
  137. # [00:52] <Hixie> project wiki != discussion
  138. # [00:52] <Hixie> != open public discussion, anyway
  139. # [00:53] <@tantek> Hixie, as you're so fond of saying, just search for it on the web
  140. # [00:53] <@tantek> and if the public wiki shows up
  141. # [00:53] <@tantek> it does = discussion
  142. # [00:53] <mkowens> It's the closest we've got to an open public discussion.
  143. # [00:53] <@tantek> if not or if it's not obvious, send an email
  144. # [00:53] <@tantek> project wiki is much more accessible, searchable, findable etc. than any code repository
  145. # [00:54] <Hixie> so if i put something on the wiki, and nobody notices, but you can google for it, you think that's good enough?
  146. # [00:54] <@tantek> thus much more like a public discussion
  147. # [00:54] <Hixie> you're making hair-splitting distinctions with no practical value here
  148. # [00:54] <@tantek> if you can google for the general subject area and it comes up sure
  149. # [00:54] <@tantek> no one is going to search for your specific terms
  150. # [00:55] <@tantek> Hixie, search/discoverability is not hairsplitting
  151. # [00:55] <@tantek> as evidence by Google's market cap
  152. # [00:55] <@tantek> so yeah, searchability/discoverability makes a *big* difference
  153. # [00:56] <@tantek> and emailing or IRC discussing those project wiki URLs is even better
  154. # [00:56] <@tantek> but first, start somewhere search discoverable
  155. # [00:56] <@tantek> rather than a much harder to search/discover/interpret code repository
  156. # [00:56] <Hixie> the checkins are googlable
  157. # [00:56] <@tantek> hah
  158. # [00:56] <Hixie> so by your argument, it was public
  159. # [00:56] <Hixie> and discussed
  160. # [00:56] <Hixie> o_O
  161. # [00:56] <@tantek> nope, the checkins don't show up on any such searches
  162. # [00:56] <@tantek> good luck with that
  163. # [00:57] <Hixie> dude
  164. # [00:57] <Hixie> you made me do a search for this
  165. # [00:57] <Hixie> and i have now found that it WAS publicly discussed!
  166. # [00:57] <Hixie> In August last year!!!
  167. # [00:57] <Hixie> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=92121
  168. # [00:58] <@tantek> "working with other browser vendors" who?
  169. # [00:58] <Hixie> heck if i know
  170. # [00:58] <@tantek> sounds like shady backdoor communications
  171. # [00:58] <mkowens> Looks like Microsoft.
  172. # [00:58] <Hixie> i didn't know about it til about a day before they posted on the whatwg list
  173. # [00:58] <@tantek> yup
  174. # [00:58] <@tantek> exactly
  175. # [00:58] <Hixie> but by your argument, that's public
  176. # [00:58] <mkowens> autocompletetype appears to have originated as a ASP.Net property
  177. # [00:58] <mkowens> as an*
  178. # [00:59] <Hixie> it was a project site, a searchable/discoverable place, months before shipping, which is completely open to all
  179. # [00:59] <mkowens> Eh; scratch that. Just actually read the details of that and that's a very different use case.
  180. # [00:59] <@tantek> hixie, what search on google.com led you to http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=92121 on the first page of results?
  181. # [00:59] <Hixie> "and if the public wiki shows up" "it does = discussion"
  182. # [00:59] <@tantek> searching for a specific term you already knew?
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  184. # [01:00] <Hixie> what search terms have you been randomly searching for over the past year?
  185. # [01:00] <@tantek> Hixie, everytime I work on developing technology I do searches first
  186. # [01:00] <@tantek> and I document my research, with URLs, publicly
  187. # [01:01] <Hixie> and you've been working on autocomplete?
  188. # [01:01] <@tantek> no you're the one that claimed you found it through a search
  189. # [01:01] <Hixie> you're the one who claimed that if it could be found throught search that was good enough
  190. # [01:01] <Hixie> i'm saying that's silly
  191. # [01:01] <Hixie> because you're not searching for things you didn't know others were working on
  192. # [01:02] <@tantek> Hixie - there's no discussion on that page
  193. # [01:02] <@tantek> just a summary
  194. # [01:03] <@tantek> and a bunch of check-ins
  195. # [01:03] <@tantek> to be fair
  196. # [01:03] <@tantek> it *is* good that that is on a public page
  197. # [01:03] <@tantek> but it's far cry from a project wiki
  198. # [01:03] <Hixie> i wouldn't be surprised if at the time that was all the documentation that there was
  199. # [01:03] <@tantek> though at least it *does* have an open comment box
  200. # [01:03] <Hixie> i doubt the thing on the wiki was written before it was checked in
  201. # [01:04] <Hixie> anyway
  202. # [01:04] <@tantek> the thing on the wiki was written 2011-12-15
  203. # [01:04] <Hixie> this is all academic since i still think this is DOA :-)
  204. # [01:04] <@tantek> and the thing on the wiki claimed it already shipped
  205. # [01:04] <@tantek> which would imply it was already checked in ;)
  206. # [01:04] <Hixie> right
  207. # [01:05] <Hixie> looks like the order of events was bug, code, checkin, ship, document, ping me, post on public list.
  208. # [01:05] <@tantek> with post to whatwg wiki just before public list
  209. # [01:05] <@tantek> anyway
  210. # [01:05] <@tantek> mkowens, if this feature/functionality interests you
  211. # [01:05] <Hixie> well the list is what matters
  212. # [01:06] <Hixie> the wiki is just a place to put notes
  213. # [01:06] <@tantek> here is the work in progress on the related research that's been done on the microformats wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-input
  214. # [01:06] <mkowens> Thanks; I'll check it out when I've got a bit more time.
  215. # [01:06] <@tantek> Hixie, right, whatwg is the opposite of microformats in that way
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  217. # [01:06] <Hixie> yes
  218. # [01:06] <@tantek> in microformats, the wiki is canonical, and mailing list is just fyi
  219. # [01:07] <@tantek> Hixie, regardless, I'll take your advice and reply with suggested improvements on the whatwg list
  220. # [01:07] <Hixie> cool
  221. # [01:07] <Hixie> having spoken to them, i can assure you that they are very open to suggestions
  222. # [01:07] <@tantek> we'll see how malleable the proposal is
  223. # [01:07] <@tantek> that's good to hear
  224. # [01:08] <@tantek> I'll try to assume as much
  225. # [01:08] <Hixie> at least in this instance, they really did ship it as an experiment to see how it did, not to force a status quo
  226. # [01:08] <Hixie> they just want to make autocomplete actually work for users
  227. # [01:08] <Hixie> i wish i had more faith that that was an achievable goal
  228. # [01:09] <Hixie> hopefully they and you will prove me wrong :-)
  229. # [01:09] <@tantek> I won't make any appraisals of chance of success
  230. # [01:09] <@tantek> or achievability as you put it
  231. # [01:14] <mkowens> I would guess that making autocomplete actually work for users will require some form of content analysis on labels near and around inputs, not better form standards, even though better form standards will help.
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  234. # [01:26] <@tantek> mkowens, precisely. IE4.5/Mac (which was AFAIK the first browser to implement autofill like is proposed) did that - content analysis on labels near and around inputs, their name attribute(s) etc.
  235. # [01:29] <@tantek> of course that was 13 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_Mac#Internet_Explorer_4.0_for_Macintosh
  236. # [01:30] <@tantek> "… on January 9, 1999, Microsoft announced the release of Internet Explorer 4.5 Macintosh Edition.[5] This new version, which dropped 68K processor support, introduced Form AutoFill, Print Preview, … "
  237. # [01:44] <mkowens> Interesting. I never actually used IEMac, so I would be curious to know how well it performed.
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  240. # [04:31] <Loqi> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=45288&oldid=45283&rcid=58590 * JamesBlunt13 * (+116)
  241. # [04:42] <Loqi> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=45289&oldid=45288&rcid=58591 * Tantek * (-116) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/JamesBlunt13|JamesBlunt13]] ([[User talk:JamesBlunt13|Talk]]) to last version by [[User:Tantek|Tantek]]
  242. # [04:42] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:JamesBlunt13]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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  257. # [10:21] <Loqi> [[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=45290&oldid=44968&rcid=58593 * LakishaGoodwin * (+320)
  258. # [10:23] <Loqi> [[hcard-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=45291&oldid=45290&rcid=58594 * Tantek * (-320) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/LakishaGoodwin|LakishaGoodwin]] ([[User talk:LakishaGoodwin|Talk]]) to last version by [[User:Tantek|Tantek]]
  259. # [10:23] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:LakishaGoodwin]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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  287. # [18:51] <Loqi> [[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=45292&oldid=45291&rcid=58596 * Tantek * (+773) key property for webid
  288. # [19:00] <bryckbost> Any ideas if there is anyone putting effort into http://microformats.org/wiki/project or if there is a different format to encapsulate open-source projects & libraries?
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  290. # [19:10] <@tantek> hi bryckbost. do you have a specific example of an HTML page of yours describing an open-source project that you'd like to add markup to?
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  294. # [19:16] <bryckbost> tantek: yes, https://gemnasium.com/.
  295. # [19:17] <bryckbost> the data we parse for it really comes from RubyGems.org, for example: https://rubygems.org/gems/delayed_job
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  297. # [19:19] <bryckbost> the Ruby world has a pretty well defined specification for libraries, but could be extrapolated and generalized to describe projects on github, google code and jQuery plugins.
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  299. # [19:27] <@tantek> very cool
  300. # [19:28] <@tantek> bryckbost - there might even be enough difference between an open source project/library and the normal project management notion of a project for the oss variety to deserve its own vocabulary
  301. # [19:28] <@tantek> but the best thing is to start with documenting your example
  302. # [19:28] <@tantek> could you add an entry for gemnasium.com to http://microformats.org/wiki/project-examples ?
  303. # [19:28] <@tantek> thanks!
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The end :)