/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2012-04-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 10 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  6. # [02:26] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/AymanAboulnasr] Previously from LatestWP: Make your Review Articles Stand out in Google Search Results Pages with hReview... http://t.co/ByaKS5pE #wordpress
  7. # [03:38] <Loqi> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=45950&oldid=45927&rcid=59600 * Tianshishiabn * (+110) /* related pages */
  8. # [03:42] <Loqi> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=45951&oldid=45950&rcid=59601 * Tantek * (-110) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Tianshishiabn|Tianshishiabn]] ([[User talk:Tianshishiabn|Talk]]) to last version by [[User:BPethullis|BPethullis]]
  9. # [03:42] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:Tianshishiabn]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  10. # [03:57] <Loqi> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard&diff=45952&oldid=45949&rcid=59603 * Tantek * (-1) /* Properties */ "use Ms for women... unless they have expressed a preference for Miss or Mrs" per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms. / The Guardian
  11. # [04:30] <Loqi> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard&diff=45953&oldid=45952&rcid=59604 * Tantek * (+0) re-order n subproperties in common properties summary by order commonly published
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  15. # [06:43] <Loqi> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard&diff=45954&oldid=45953&rcid=59605 * Tantek * (+2328) /* Properties */ longer example hCard demonstrating list of common properties
  16. # [07:36] <Loqi> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard&diff=45955&oldid=45954&rcid=59606 * Tantek * (+121) fix some alignment, simpler intro, shorter descriptions, nowrap so they align even when narrower, float both to avoid text overlapping
  17. # [07:44] <Loqi> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard&diff=45956&oldid=45955&rcid=59607 * Tantek * (+3) /* Properties */ use time element for bday
  18. # [07:49] <@tantek> ok another update to the list of common hCard properties - added a line-by-line example adjacent to the list: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Properties
  19. # [07:50] <@tantek> please take a look and see if that helps with the introduction of common properties (which I think is the 2nd most common thing people will look for after the very simple examples at the top) http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard - cc: Phae aaronpk hober mkowens singpolyma
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  22. # [08:38] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/StepUpWeb] hCard Как использовать для сайта? Советы http://t.co/b3EUzgC2
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  24. # [09:07] <ChiefRA> hi tantek I'll have a look
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  26. # [09:38] <@tantek> thanks ChiefRA
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  35. # [11:05] <Loqi> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard&diff=45957&oldid=45956&rcid=59608 * Tantek * (-1) /* Properties */ left left floats for more predictable layout
  36. # [11:10] <@tantek> ok with that minor styling tweak the new common "properties" section and line-by-line example should be good to go
  37. # [11:11] <@tantek> good morning Phae, would appreciate your review/thoughts of the usability/readability of the new section I added to the hCard spec, in terms of how it reads from the beginning: microformats.org/wiki/hcard
  38. # [11:11] <Loqi> *yawn* it looks like overcast
  39. # [11:14] <neuro`> Morning
  40. # [11:14] <@tantek> morning neuro - take a look at microformats.org/wiki/hcard and let me know what you think of the new list of common properties and example next to it
  41. # [11:15] <neuro`> tantek: I was reading it
  42. # [11:16] <barnabywalters> IMO that is a significant improvement — much clearer and more useful
  43. # [11:19] <neuro`> I like it. Would have probably put the code part on the left though
  44. # [11:19] <neuro`> Plus no vertical separator between the code and its explanation makes it a little harder to read.
  45. # [11:20] <@tantek> neuro - I've heard the opposite (about left vs right) - I think having the more english readable list on the left is a nicer reference for most folks
  46. # [11:20] <@tantek> and the code on the right provides a good learning reminder for newer folks
  47. # [11:20] <@tantek> when you say no vertical separator - are you saying the two columns are next to each other?
  48. # [11:22] <@tantek> like too close to each other?
  49. # [11:24] <@tantek> and thanks barnabywalters!
  50. # [11:24] <barnabywalters> np
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  52. # [11:25] <barnabywalters> anything that makes microformats easier to implement and understand is good in my book
  53. # [11:28] <neuro`> tantek: just did some tests, and a visual separator doesn't add any readability, so forget about it. And yes, for normal people, English first, code second makes sense.
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  62. # [14:09] <@Phae> hey tantek. i'll get to it. first day back after time away, so i'm a bit swamped this morn. should have some time this evening.
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  69. # [15:10] <ChiefRA> tantek: a) I would somehow combine the "Property list" section with "Properties" one-on-one (making only one section) b) I would of placed "Properties" 1st, then "Property list" 2nd and then "Property notes" sections first and then the "Example" one for usability.
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  72. # [16:20] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/tadayoshinori] @hatom_ne せやで！！
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  74. # [16:56] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/glennjones] Nice use of hCard and OpenGraph data ‘Save to foursquare’ button https://t.co/Qs4MesnI
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  80. # [18:51] <@tantek> ChiefRA - I had considered including all the properties in the "Properties" section at the top, but decided not to for usability reasons.
  81. # [18:51] <Loqi> http://loqi.me/42Q
  82. # [18:51] <@tantek> The vast majority of authors using hCard don't care about *all* the properties
  83. # [18:53] <@tantek> In addition, I've had the suggestion from folks that they want/need to see very simple a markup example of each property as they're reading the simple list, and as such the side-by-side layout is the most compact I could come up with (being able to see as much of that on the screen at once also improves usability)
  84. # [18:54] <@tantek> Finally, the decision to do the markup example of each property next to the list of common properties led to realizing it should all make sense as part of a single composite example which you could copy/paste (which people *will* do because that's what they do with example) and thus it made sense to reduce the common properties set down to what people actually *do* commonly publish.
  85. # [18:56] <@tantek> Thus a) we still need a "property list" section with the full list of properties *somewhere else* (that I'm still figuring out how to best design), and b) keeping the example of the common properties adjacent to the list of common properties themselves is *better* for usability, than separating them into different sections where people would have to scroll back/forth to look at a property definition vs. use in markup.
  86. # [18:57] <@tantek> Alternatively, if you think you've figured out a better content design for that section, try a sample edit of it on your user page, and show some folks in comparison to what's on hCard right now and see what feedback you get.
  87. # [18:58] <@tantek> Every one of these recent content design iterations on the hCard spec has been based directly on feedback from multiple individuals.
  88. # [19:00] <@tantek> Phae, welcome back, and whenever you can get to it would be great. Hopefully it won't take more than 5-10 min to review and get a feeling for.
  89. # [19:02] <@tantek> hmm, I wonder if Loqi has a pattern match for verb all the nouns and then turns it into an image.
  90. # [19:02] * Loqi is done
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  92. # [19:32] <mkowens> tantek: I feel like there's probably two sets of properties, sort of like "Core" and "Extended" properties. I don't exactly know how to delineate them, but the current list seems fine as of right now, in my opinion (at least with the limitations of the wiki format).
  93. # [19:35] <@tantek> mkowens - yeah, in theory there shouldn't need to be such a delineation, due to the process and 80/20 rule, but in practice with hCard and hCalendar I took all of vCard and iCalendar and that was probably a mistake.
  94. # [19:35] <@tantek> that being said, even some of the presumably 80/20 properties from research end up not being used as often as the data would have led us to expect
  95. # [19:37] <@tantek> btw I despise the term "core" because it's almost always just a replacement for a "pure judgment call"
  96. # [19:37] <mkowens> Actually, I don't think that was a mistake.
  97. # [19:37] <@tantek> "common" to me implies at least there's some data/experience with actual usage in the wild
  98. # [19:38] <@tantek> mkowens, fair enough. including all of vCard and iCalendar EVENT object was perhaps not so much a mistake as a "best first guess" that I should have iterated further on and dropped various properties accordingly.
  99. # [19:38] <mkowens> And yes, "Core" is sometimes a "pure judgement call" but "Common" and "Uncommon" doesn't feel right for defining spec. :-\
  100. # [19:38] <mkowens> Anyway, standup. I'll be back in a bit.
  101. # [19:38] <@tantek> re: defining a spec, that's the irony, the use of "core" is in practice less precise than the use of "common"
  102. # [19:39] <@tantek> ooh standups - you know my opinion/experience on those.
  103. # [19:47] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/mefiblogger] Hirtelen beindult a mezőny, már csak hátom ember a sorban!!
  104. # [19:49] <mkowens> Yeah. I'm not a fan. And you're probably right regarding the use of "Common" versus "Core." I just feel like the connotation of "Core" and "Common" are both different. "Common" feels—to me, at least—not definitive, but rather entirely observational.
  105. # [19:51] <@tantek> observational tends to be better than a priori
  106. # [19:51] <@tantek> I've yet to see someone good at defining "core"
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  108. # [19:57] <mkowens> tantek: what about the DOM Core? Doesn't that represent a pretty good definition of "core"?
  109. # [19:57] <@tantek> mkowens - no it practice it was a disaster
  110. # [19:57] <@tantek> originally, DOM Core meant "stuff from XML that no one actually uses when writing JS on the web"
  111. # [19:57] <@tantek> vs. DOM HTML
  112. # [19:57] <@tantek> it was a political split
  113. # [19:58] <mkowens> Oh. Okay.
  114. # [19:58] <@tantek> DOM Core was the clean based on XML/Java and nearly useless/unusable part of the DOM
  115. # [19:58] <@tantek> perfect example to prove my point
  116. # [19:58] <mkowens> I guess that's why DOM4 dropped the "Core" in the title (even though it's still in the URL)?
  117. # [19:58] <@tantek> yeah that would make sense
  118. # [19:58] <mkowens> Point conceded.
  119. # [19:59] <@tantek> so yes, any time you see someone refer to "core", in a spec, ask them, what makes it "core"? what are the practical distinctions between "core" and other parts?
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  124. # [20:08] <Loqi> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard&diff=45958&oldid=45957&rcid=59609 * Tantek * (-44) /* Properties */ tighten up the columns so they're closer together
  125. # [20:12] <Loqi> [[air conditioning repair katy tx]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=air_conditioning_repair_katy_tx&rcid=59610 * Dchavez * (+1245) local home service company in Katy, Texas offering air conditioning repair.
  126. # [20:12] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:Dchavez]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  127. # [20:13] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[air conditioning repair katy tx]]": content was spam
  128. # [20:20] <Loqi> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard&diff=45960&oldid=45958&rcid=59613 * Tantek * (-59) move the "want to get started" to just after the list/example of common properties
  129. # [20:23] <Loqi> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard&diff=45961&oldid=45960&rcid=59614 * Tantek * (-3) bit more space after common properties list, copy edit want to get started points
  130. # [20:27] <Loqi> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard&diff=45962&oldid=45961&rcid=59615 * Tantek * (-1) a bit more spacing
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  134. # [21:35] <Loqi> [[hlisting]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hlisting&diff=45963&oldid=44898&rcid=59616 * Anneliviasimoes * (+184) /* Examples in the Wild */
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  142. # [22:57] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/GlennF] Does Apple support any microformats in Mail? Its own or hCalendar or what have you? I thought so. Docs are horrible.
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  144. # [23:13] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/BarnabyWalters] @idiot Why have you made a vcard style site without marking it up with hcard? Surely that's the… purpose?
  145. # [23:16] <@tantek> barnabywalters - good point. he could use hCard and rel=me both on his "vcard style site" as well as on his blog home page where he links to several other profiles: http://visualidiot.com/
  146. # [23:17] <barnabywalters> ARGH!! TOO MANY PROFILE PAGES! How does he justify the expenses for all the random domains he manages?!
  147. # [23:18] <@tantek> hah - maybe he's addicted to domains? ;)
  148. # [23:18] <@tantek> I don't understand his latest tweet - does he dislike semantic class names?
  149. # [23:19] <barnabywalters> he owns upsidedownkittens.com for god's sake
  150. # [23:19] <barnabywalters> and there's nothing on it!
  151. # [23:19] <barnabywalters> I think he means the vCard style sites
  152. # [23:19] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/idiot] @BarnabyWalters Trouble is, though, I try to give as little info away as possible, which means it probably fails hCard validation.
  153. # [23:20] <barnabywalters> I hadn't heard of them before he mentioned them
  154. # [23:20] <@tantek> all an hCard needs to be valid is an 'fn' - the examples are right there at the top of the spec! http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
  155. # [23:20] <singpolyma> hCard validation :P part of the problem with microformats listing "required attributes" is people get the dumb idea that if they don't have those attributes, they shouldn't use the microformat
  156. # [23:21] <@tantek> singpolyma - agreed - hence why everything is optional in microformats-2 - we've learned our lesson.
  157. # [23:21] <singpolyma> that was a fight I used to have with people over hAtom all the time
  158. # [23:21] <@tantek> which side of the fight?
  159. # [23:21] <singpolyma> I just publish "invalid" microformats, because I consider microformats useful guidelines on taxonomy, not stone tablets :)
  160. # [23:21] <barnabywalters> I think he's just trying to make some point about vCard sites… trouble is, I'm not sure exactly what :|
  161. # [23:21] <@tantek> invalid how?
  162. # [23:22] <@tantek> also - note that the "required" properties in hCard/hCalendar/hAtom came directly from the requirements in vCard/iCalendar/Atom - and carrying that "required" semantic forward was a mistake (I'll take responsibility for that)
  163. # [23:22] <@tantek> whereas what I should have simply done is describe how to generate any such required other-format properties from the respective microformats
  164. # [23:22] <singpolyma> invalid in that I was either missing a required attribute (I think author is "required" in hAtom, or was). or the wrong format (I used to publish hAtom with wrong-formatted dates all the time)
  165. # [23:23] <@tantek> well the author requirement is going away - so you're fine there (and helped shape the evolution/iteration)
  166. # [23:23] <@tantek> what kind of dates do you publish?
  167. # [23:23] <singpolyma> yes, I know :) I'm not complaining, just saying
  168. # [23:23] <barnabywalters> I initially published Atom feeds with normal datetimes
  169. # [23:23] <singpolyma> I publish valid <time> these days :) Back in the day I would just dump whatever the default format on my Blogger system was, because that used to be the only option.
  170. # [23:23] <barnabywalters> YYYY-MM-DD HH-MM-SS and the like
  171. # [23:23] <@tantek> "normal" ?!? (according to what cultural norms? ;) )
  172. # [23:23] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/idiot] @BarnabyWalters Using http://t.co/csbtVbwG generates some awful markup. Plus, semantics are bad: did you not see Terminator?
  173. # [23:24] <@tantek> barnabywalters - perhaps we could help him out with some example markup
  174. # [23:24] <barnabywalters> Somehow I don't think it's worth it. But we can but try
  175. # [23:24] <@tantek> ah, he doesn't like the hCard generator - interesting
  176. # [23:24] <singpolyma> because my hAtom parsers can happily handle any date format (and that's all I ever parsed it with) and also because I consider some semantics ("this is the date") better than none ("this is some text")
  177. # [23:24] <@tantek> any date format?
  178. # [23:24] <@tantek> like 4/10/12 ?
  179. # [23:24] <@tantek> :P
  180. # [23:25] <singpolyma> well, "any sensible" :P
  181. # [23:25] <singpolyma> I use fuzzy date parsers for everything
  182. # [23:25] <@tantek> fuzzy means different things to different people
  183. # [23:25] <@tantek> fuzzy itself is fuzzy
  184. # [23:25] <singpolyma> I've never liked the hCard/hCal creators either, but I just ignore them and make my own stuff happily :)
  185. # [23:25] <singpolyma> sure
  186. # [23:25] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/BarnabyWalters] @idiot No, I haven't see terminator. And I dislike that generator too, there's a better guide at http://t.co/E8IZqb2F
  187. # [23:25] <@tantek> singpolyma - the creators are better than nothing
  188. # [23:26] <singpolyma> sure
  189. # [23:26] <singpolyma> again, I'm not complaining
  190. # [23:26] <singpolyma> I like microformats :)
  191. # [23:26] <barnabywalters> I prefer working from examples than generators, but low barrier of entry is good
  192. # [23:26] <@tantek> and they're open source to encourage folks to make better versions :)
  193. # [23:26] <singpolyma> yeah
  194. # [23:26] <@tantek> so if you don't like them, make better ones!
  195. # [23:26] <barnabywalters> Okay, I will
  196. # [23:26] <barnabywalters> for me the key is making one that you can customise to fit with your code layout style
  197. # [23:27] <singpolyma> I don't know if something like the hCard creator can be made very good, but I'm willing to be proven wrong :) Usually CMS plugins work well IME
  198. # [23:27] <@tantek> yeah we have those too: http://microformats.org/wiki/cms
  199. # [23:28] <@tantek> barnabywalters - it wouldn't take many code changes to hCard-ify @idiot's .vc site
  200. # [23:28] <singpolyma> yup :)
  201. # [23:28] <@tantek> e.g. <div class="vcard">
  202. # [23:28] <barnabywalters> heh. perhaps 25 characters to make it a 'valid' hcard?
  203. # [23:28] <@tantek> <h2>The name&rsquo;s <span class="fn nickname">Idiot</span>.</h2>
  204. # [23:28] <singpolyma> is the whole site just one hCard? could put class="vcard" on <body> ;)
  205. # [23:29] <@tantek> (this is on idiot.vc)
  206. # [23:29] <@tantek> <a class="url" rel="me" href="//visualidiot.com">anything off my blog</a>
  207. # [23:29] <@tantek> and
  208. # [23:29] <@tantek> <a class=url rel=me href="//twitter.com/idiot">Twitter</a>, <a class=url rel=me href="//forrst.me/vi">Forrst</a>, or <a class=url rel=me href="//dribbble.com/vi">Dribbble</a>
  209. # [23:29] <@tantek> that should do it
  210. # [23:29] <singpolyma> oh, gross, that site's links animate when I hover them
  211. # [23:30] <singpolyma> yeah, looks pretty simple
  212. # [23:30] <barnabywalters> *Tries hovering ARGH! the jaggies have come. That's hideous
  213. # [23:31] <singpolyma> it's the 90s again!
  214. # [23:31] * singpolyma 90s happy dance
  215. # [23:31] <barnabywalters> but this time, it's 'tasteful'. With blue and sans serif and all
  216. # [23:32] <barnabywalters> tantek - reckon you could fit all the markup he needs in a single tweet?
  217. # [23:33] <mkowens> On Mac in Chrome, I see no jaggies. I bet in Windows on IE it does.
  218. # [23:33] <mkowens> ^.^
  219. # [23:33] <barnabywalters> mac safari. I doubt there'd be any jaggies in IE… unless he's using some kind of -ms-transform
  220. # [23:34] <@tantek> barnabywalters, since this channel is logged, you could just send him an IRC log link like this: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats/20120410#l-199
  221. # [23:34] <@tantek> (i've highlighted the relevant markup lines)
  222. # [23:34] <mkowens> Nah. I was referring to the fact that any sort of text-shadow or -ms-animation (both of which are made use of) cause jaggies in IE.
  223. # [23:36] <barnabywalters> not sure that'd have the same sort of impact factor as 'here it is, all in a tweet' :)
  224. # [23:39] * Quits: Soopaman (~soopaman@tor-fw.blastradius.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  225. # Session Close: Wed Apr 11 00:00:01 2012

The end :)