/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2012-04-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 19 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  38. # [09:05] <neuro`> Hello
  39. # [09:10] <Chief|AFK> hi neuro`
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  42. # [09:22] <neuro`> Hi ChiefRA
  43. # [10:12] <Loqi> [[exploratory-discussions]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=exploratory-discussions&diff=46062&oldid=46028&rcid=59736 * Tot ra * (+53) /* active */
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  47. # [10:21] <Loqi> [[xrate]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=xrate&rcid=59737 * Tot ra * (+1420) New page: == Problem == Explicit content is a media that affects human psyche and disturbs it. Formatting violent, pornographic and other content should allow control with browser plugins, search cr...
  48. # [10:25] <Loqi> [[xrate]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=xrate&diff=46064&oldid=46063&rcid=59738 * Tot ra * (+129) /* existing standards */
  49. # [10:35] <Loqi> [[xrate]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=xrate&diff=46065&oldid=46064&rcid=59739 * Tot ra * (+221)
  50. # [10:37] <Loqi> [[xrate]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=xrate&diff=46066&oldid=46065&rcid=59740 * Tot ra * (+84)
  51. # [10:52] <Loqi> [[exploratory-discussions]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=exploratory-discussions&diff=46067&oldid=46062&rcid=59741 * Tot ra * (+0) /* active */
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  55. # [11:08] <Loqi> [[xrate]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=xrate&diff=46068&oldid=46066&rcid=59742 * Tot ra * (+68) /* Existing standards */
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  59. # [11:33] <Loqi> [[xrate]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=xrate&diff=46069&oldid=46068&rcid=59743 * Tot ra * (+182) /* Draft */
  60. # [11:34] <Loqi> [[xrate]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=xrate&diff=46070&oldid=46069&rcid=59744 * Tot ra * (+15) /* Draft */
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  63. # [12:28] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/jeet_dholakia] @hishaman sir that Author hReview problem is solved? Because i am still not getting it :-(
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  66. # [14:49] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/andreas_io] cms' and text-input gui's please include microformats. Hardly any event advertised outside facebook google uses it http://t.co/zkNQlXhp
  67. # [15:01] <Loqi> [[exploratory-discussions]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=exploratory-discussions&diff=46071&oldid=46067&rcid=59745 * Juraj * (+14) /* education related */
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  84. # [18:17] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/amalinafarzana] @hifatinlatiff @Shahidan13 serious. Hatom ajak aku. Dia ckp nak bawak hud sekali. Tp tal cnfrm lagi sayangku
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  88. # [19:01] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/fmpjnej] @wenyunchao Ieta Nakedprisoner Da HCards Work Naked Prisoner Josef Geisle
  89. # [19:01] <@tantek> !spammer fmpjnej
  90. # [19:01] <Loqi> Got it! There are now 30 spammers blacklisted
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  102. # [21:28] <rossputin> Hi, we have an idea for a sitemap protocol microformat which we have not seen under existing, draft or exploratory-discussions
  103. # [21:28] <rossputin> We would therefore like to ask here on IRC whether anyone has started any such effort or whether it has been previously dismissed/abandoned ?
  104. # [21:29] <@tantek> rossputin - I haven't heard of any no
  105. # [21:29] <rossputin> Is it permissible to post a link to an informal document detailing our idea ?
  106. # [21:29] <@tantek> have you found interesting examples / patterns of publishing sitemaps?
  107. # [21:30] <@tantek> rossputin - have you read http://microformats.org/wiki/process?
  108. # [21:30] <rossputin> Hi
  109. # [21:30] <rossputin> yes, I ticked off the previously mentioned steps so far
  110. # [21:30] <rossputin> and thought IRC was next ?
  111. # [21:30] <rossputin> I am working through that page this evening
  112. # [21:31] <@tantek> so you've started documenting examples and previous formats?
  113. # [21:31] <rossputin> have not done the interesting examples step yet
  114. # [21:31] <@tantek> then you haven't ticked off the previously mentioned steps before jumping to detailing an idea
  115. # [21:31] <@tantek> ideas/brainstorming must always come *after* research into existing publishing examples and previous formats
  116. # [21:32] <rossputin> Hi apologies...
  117. # [21:33] <rossputin> I interpreted the 'Why?' section a little different
  118. # [21:33] <rossputin> my mistake
  119. # [21:33] <weavejester> Isn't microformats.org a fairly complete list of all known microformats?
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  121. # [21:33] <rossputin> so now I should be looking at 'Why examples first?' under 'Document Current Behaviour' ?
  122. # [21:34] <weavejester> i.e. if an equivalent isn't on microformats.org, can we assume that one doesn't exist?
  123. # [21:34] <barnabywalters> weavejester - pretty much, yes
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  126. # [21:36] <@tantek> rossputin - you did the right thing to come to IRC to talk about it
  127. # [21:36] <rossputin> ok, cool...
  128. # [21:36] <rossputin> just moving on to 'Why examples first' now
  129. # [21:36] <@tantek> from the Why section … what's the real world use case?
  130. # [21:36] <@tantek> right - always good to discuss the use case first
  131. # [21:36] <@tantek> even before any ideas for something
  132. # [21:36] <weavejester> barnabywalters: Ah good.
  133. # [21:37] <weavejester> I've been meaning to submit a microformat draft for documenting forum posts (followup, author, in-reply-to, etc.)
  134. # [21:37] <weavejester> Though I haven't got around to writing it up yet.
  135. # [21:38] <@tantek> weavejester - good thing, because submitting a draft is premature without first researching the area and documenting your research etc.
  136. # [21:38] <@tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/process
  137. # [21:38] <rossputin> ok so, sorry for the confusion but do I state a use case in here first before writing anywhere else ?
  138. # [21:38] <@tantek> right - start with stating your use case
  139. # [21:38] <rossputin> ok...
  140. # [21:39] <@tantek> why is it useful to markup a sitemap in HTML?
  141. # [21:39] <@tantek> e.g. are you trying to replace sitemap.xml?
  142. # [21:39] <@tantek> weavejester - have you tried using hAtom?
  143. # [21:39] <@tantek> (if so, which sites, etc. and have you documented any limitations on the respective issues page?)
  144. # [21:40] <rossputin> we think machines could generate a sitemap.xml by reading the ever present nav on so many sites… if a little semantic information was provided for priority/changereq etc
  145. # [21:40] <rossputin> we have a requirement to do it ourselves in a product we are working on
  146. # [21:40] <weavejester> tantek: hatom seemed to be linear last time I looked.
  147. # [21:40] <rossputin> but think it is useful outside of our toolsets
  148. # [21:40] <@tantek> ok, so automatic generation of sitemap.xml from existing HTML, rather than having to hand-author sitemap.xml - that's a decent use case.
  149. # [21:40] <rossputin> plugins etc
  150. # [21:40] <rossputin> yes
  151. # [21:40] <rossputin> exactly
  152. # [21:40] <barnabywalters> I thought sitemap.xml was intended to tell search engines about sites that they weren't likely to find out about via crawls?
  153. # [21:41] <rossputin> currently not done AFAIK
  154. # [21:41] <rossputin> it is intended to provide ancillary info to crawlers
  155. # [21:41] <rossputin> such as how often is the site updated...
  156. # [21:41] <weavejester> tantek: I was thinking of a microformat to semantically document a hierarchical set of messages, such as a forum, or newsgroup archive.
  157. # [21:41] <rossputin> and how important does the author think certain pages are etc
  158. # [21:41] <rossputin> sort of tailoring the crawl process a little
  159. # [21:44] <Loqi> [[comment]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=comment&diff=46072&oldid=34404&rcid=59746 * Tantek * (+7) entry-title
  160. # [21:44] <barnabywalters> rossputin yes, I suppose data like that could be useful to users too
  161. # [21:44] <@tantek> cool, so let's start with that. rossputin, start a page http://microformats.org/wiki/sitemap, and state the use-case right there at the top, and provide links to *-example, *-formats, *-brainstorms pages. see the http://microformats.org/wiki/comment page for a decent start to a top level page to start a specific effort/exploration
  162. # [21:46] <@tantek> weavejester - ok I think I understand the publishing distinction (nesting, threads?). now what's the use-case? how would marking up a hierarchical set of messages, such as a forum, or newsgroup archive be useful?
  163. # [21:46] <rossputin> ok, I will do
  164. # [21:46] <rossputin> thank you for the feedback and guidance guys
  165. # [21:48] <@tantek> rossputin - no problem - I'll be back in a bit
  166. # [21:48] <@tantek> also - this conversation is helping to improve the process - I'm going to edit it to make the next steps clearer
  167. # [21:48] <@tantek> (i.e. including what I just noted above about starting with the comment page as an example)
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  169. # [21:49] <weavejester> tantek: Well, personally speaking I want to be able to store a forum archive in a format that is both human readable and parsable by a machine. By adding in information like rel="followup", a parser can understand the structure of the archived posts, so that it doesn't confuse a link referencing a previous post, with a link to the response of a post. If that makes sense.
  170. # [21:50] <weavejester> Ah, he/she left.
  171. # [21:50] <barnabywalters> he
  172. # [21:51] <barnabywalters> that sounds useful
  173. # [21:53] <weavejester> I might implement it in code first, so I'm sure it's useful, before publishing a draft. If I use it in anger, I have a better idea of which elements of the design work and whether it's useful.
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  175. # [21:55] <barnabywalters> would you want to store only a linear thread, or a multidimensional thread?
  176. # [21:57] <weavejester> barnabywalters: One post could have many followup links.
  177. # [21:57] <barnabywalters> yep, but are all the responses considered responses to the original post, or can responses be directed at other responses?
  178. # [21:58] <weavejester> Ah, no, I'm assuming that there's one post per page.
  179. # [21:58] <barnabywalters> Ah, okay
  180. # [21:58] <barnabywalters> that's more complicated.
  181. # [21:59] <weavejester> Yes, if there are multiple messages on one page, it's difficult to use links to structure them
  182. # [21:59] <weavejester> And for the job I need it for, each message will have its own URL.
  183. # [21:59] <weavejester> Most forums have "permalinks" to posts anyway.
  184. # [22:00] <weavejester> It might be that the scheme I have in mind has limited use, so perhaps I should just implement it for the use I have in mind first.
  185. # [22:01] <barnabywalters> I think we do need this kind of markup
  186. # [22:01] <barnabywalters> just thinking how to do it in a way that is flexible and extensible
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  189. # [22:01] <weavejester> The hard part is doing that without making it more complex :)
  190. # [22:02] <barnabywalters> yh :)
  191. # [22:03] <barnabywalters> my publishing system currently has a pertaining_to field, which is pretty abstract
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  193. # [22:04] <barnabywalters> how about marking up <blockquote> elements with links back to the posts they originated from?
  194. # [22:05] <barnabywalters> not sure if cite="" is appropriate for that
  195. # [22:06] <barnabywalters> so you could link each response to the original post, link any blockquoted material back to the post it's from, and order the whole shebang by the publish date to get a linked-up thread
  196. # [22:08] <weavejester> barnabywalters: Perhaps. It's starting to get beyond the itch I want to scratch though ;)
  197. # [22:08] <weavejester> barnabywalters: Linking back blockquoted material is a good idea, though...
  198. # [22:08] <barnabywalters> I think that technique would be good as it's extendable
  199. # [22:09] <barnabywalters> e.g. one post can be a response to multiple others with minimal metadata
  200. # [22:09] <barnabywalters> what exactly is the itch you need to scratch?
  201. # [22:13] <Loqi> [[sitemap]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=sitemap&rcid=59747 * Rossputin * (+309) New page: <entry-title>Sitemap</entry-title> Enable the automatic generation of sitemap.xml from existing HTML by specifying a minimal amount of semantic information. Per the microformats [[proces...
  202. # [22:15] <weavejester> barnabywalters: Essentially web site A wants to be able to import threaded messages from web site B
  203. # [22:16] <barnabywalters> ah, okay. Given what resources? Just the original post URI?
  204. # [22:17] <weavejester> barnabywalters: Yes. I can also assume that each post is its own resource.
  205. # [22:18] <barnabywalters> so site A needs to be able to discover all possible replies to a given resource, and order them
  206. # [22:19] <weavejester> Right. And also any parents. I was thinking links for "followup" and "in-reply-to". Also "author" (already in use) and "recipient".
  207. # [22:19] <weavejester> The subject of the message would just be the title
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  209. # [22:19] <weavejester> The body would, well, be the body.
  210. # [22:20] <barnabywalters> so, given any thread, Site A needs to traverse both up and down the thread and discover all of the posts related to the one it's given
  211. # [22:20] <barnabywalters> *given any post
  212. # [22:20] <weavejester> barnabywalters: Yes… I hadn't thought much about transversing up, but I guess it should do.
  213. # [22:21] <weavejester> barnabywalters: I was going to sanitize the HTML and cache the result.
  214. # [22:22] <barnabywalters> in that case, yes, follow-up and reply-to seem like a pretty solid solution
  215. # [22:23] <weavejester> I'll have to see how it works in practise
  216. # [22:23] <weavejester> The other way is to just use JSON, but...
  217. # [22:23] <weavejester> Semantic HTML seems a better solution.
  218. # [22:24] <barnabywalters> look at it this way: if you do an implementation yourself, you'll have a really good example if you want to make a threading-examples page on the wiki ;)
  219. # [22:24] <weavejester> barnabywalters: Hah! Yes, that's true. :)
  220. # [22:25] <barnabywalters> I wonder if this is the kind of thing you can make, say, a phpBB plugin for
  221. # [22:28] <Loqi> [[sitemap]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=sitemap&diff=46074&oldid=46073&rcid=59748 * Rossputin * (-22)
  222. # [22:28] <barnabywalters> weavejester: Might be worth having a look at the activitystreams extension draft for this kind of thing http://activitystrea.ms/specs/json/replies/1.0/
  223. # [22:29] <weavejester> barnabywalters: Ultimately my plan is to make plugins for this.
  224. # [22:29] <weavejester> barnabywalters: Effectively my plan is to send POST requests with a single "href" parameter that signifies a new or updated resource
  225. # [22:30] <Loqi> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=events&diff=46075&oldid=45967&rcid=59749 * Tantek * (+74) fixed multiple day event template - restored dt-end element
  226. # [22:30] <weavejester> barnabywalters: So two forums could effectively stay in sync via an open protocol.
  227. # [22:30] <barnabywalters> that sounds like activitystreams to me
  228. # [22:30] <barnabywalters> possibly salmon too, although I'm not so familiar with that one
  229. # [22:31] <weavejester> barnabywalters: I wasn't aware of activitystreams. I'll take a closer look.
  230. # [22:31] <weavejester> Though at first glance it seems more complex.
  231. # [22:31] <barnabywalters> it is quite complex
  232. # [22:31] <weavejester> I wanted something where I could write: curl -X POST -d "href=http://..."
  233. # [22:32] <weavejester> And for that to be basically the entire protocol :)
  234. # [22:32] <weavejester> Plus some microformat on the resource itself.
  235. # [22:33] <Loqi> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=events&diff=46076&oldid=46075&rcid=59750 * Tantek * (-95) remove obsolete parenthetical remark about dtend for multiple day event template per [[dtend-issue]]
  236. # [22:35] <barnabywalters> well, I think that using in-reply-to and responses(/whatever ) is going to be the simplest and most solid solution
  237. # [22:36] <barnabywalters> but if the aim is to create a near-real time update/sync system, then the added complexity of salmon http://www.salmon-protocol.org/ and activitystreams will make the system more interoperable with other services
  238. # [22:36] <barnabywalters> got to go now, bye
  239. # [22:37] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-2-97-253-235.as13285.net) (Quit: Back to real life!)
  240. # [22:40] <Loqi> [[sitemap]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=sitemap&diff=46077&oldid=46074&rcid=59751 * Rossputin * (+250)
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The end :)