/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2012-05-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 10 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  10. # [01:41] <@tantek> greetings microformatters
  11. # [01:44] * Joins: MT (~MT@217.172.29.1)
  12. # [01:44] <@tantek> just had an interesting IRC chat with a self-described semantic markup developer and he really wanted a way to *just* use property class names on a page when the properties were about the whole page.
  13. # [01:45] <@tantek> welcome MT!
  14. # [01:45] <@tantek> sort of like an implied "h-item" on <body> in the absence of any root classnames
  15. # [01:46] <Loqi> [[FriersonLlewellyn286]] NM http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=FriersonLlewellyn286&rcid=59960 * FriersonLlewellyn286 * (+2998) New page: Broadband Speed Test A Short Overview As we progress from dialup modems to high speed ADSL connections, the obsession with internet speed is matched only by the seemingly endless real nee...
  16. # [01:46] <Loqi> [[User:FriersonLlewellyn286]] NM http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:FriersonLlewellyn286&rcid=59961 * FriersonLlewellyn286 * (+2998) New page: Broadband Speed Test A Short Overview As we progress from dialup modems to high speed ADSL connections, the obsession with internet speed is matched only by the seemingly endless real nee...
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  20. # [01:48] <@tantek> given our methodology of easier authoring, simpler/reduced markup, I think it makes sense
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  22. # [01:59] <@tantek> it would also be an interesting visible-data-centric alternative to OGP
  23. # [02:09] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:FriersonLlewellyn286]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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  25. # [02:54] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/comeoninside] http://t.co/lDXRHoUc hCard has a ROSE of a gift for your Mom!
  26. # [03:02] <@tantek> !spammer comeoninside
  27. # [03:02] <Loqi> Got it! There are now 38 spammers blacklisted
  28. # [03:02] <@tantek> !spammer gildartscliv3
  29. # [03:02] <Loqi> Got it! There are now 39 spammers blacklisted
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  36. # [04:52] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/masaki456] @hatom_ne なにそれ？？
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  38. # [05:34] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/CAAMinLA] Urban Issues Breakfast Forum- Author Michelle Alexander @CAAMinLA 7:30am Food served Prog@8am Fri,5/11 FREE #helioscal http://t.co/nCLZLwJk
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  50. # [08:25] <Cat4D> why are there no comprehensive schema structures???
  51. # [08:26] <Cat4D> and why are these idiots trying to undermine the world? http://www.schema.org/docs/full.html
  52. # [08:35] <Cat4D> and there are no abstract ontology viewers?
  53. # [08:35] <@tantek> Cat4D - "comprehensive schema" is a bit of an oxymoron ;)
  54. # [08:35] <Cat4D> its comprehensive in its inclusion of structure and capability
  55. # [08:36] <Cat4D> where type of numbers are defined, then composite structures like mailing address
  56. # [08:36] <@tantek> Cat4D - no need to namecall ("idiots"), and perhaps attempting to "defined the world" can be mistaken for "undermine the world"
  57. # [08:36] <Cat4D> with appropriate output representations
  58. # [08:36] <Cat4D> ... its such a simple requirement
  59. # [08:36] <Cat4D> but the institutions continually undermine and prevent such simple standards
  60. # [08:36] <@tantek> that does seem to be a common pattern
  61. # [08:37] <Cat4D> i had the usdoj.gov and related parties physically steal one such system with abstract 3d visualization in the 90s
  62. # [08:37] <@tantek> large institutions seem to develop overly complex standards
  63. # [08:37] <Cat4D> im really sick of this problem now
  64. # [08:37] <Cat4D> i went looking for a standard contextual document citation structure and syntax
  65. # [08:37] <@tantek> Cat4D - being sick of a problem is a good sign to work on a different problem and come back eventually. ;)
  66. # [08:38] <Cat4D> hehe
  67. # [08:38] <@tantek> yeah, that's an interesting problem space "standard contextual document citation structure and syntax"
  68. # [08:38] <Cat4D> the tree above is horrible
  69. # [08:38] <Cat4D> absolutely fails to comprehend basic data structure
  70. # [08:38] <@tantek> sure
  71. # [08:38] <Cat4D> any attempt to use it will undermine future strucutre advancemenet
  72. # [08:38] <@tantek> I've been doing research of existing citation formats and styles, looking for common patterns
  73. # [08:38] <@tantek> you might find it of interest to the problem you mentioned
  74. # [08:39] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-formats
  75. # [08:39] <Cat4D> i just wanted a standard to include both islamic and western CE date forms in the citation structure
  76. # [08:39] <@tantek> interesting. do you know of real world examples on the web of people publishing such content/citation examples?
  77. # [08:39] <Cat4D> they cant even get that right, but worse, is the islamic council unfortionately doesnt comprehend structured contexts, which upset me because those groups are usually ahead on these topics
  78. # [08:40] <@tantek> that would help with coming up with a practical design.
  79. # [08:40] <Cat4D> id live to find more, but citations have no searchable reference ... aka none say "CITATION:"
  80. # [08:40] <Cat4D> so unless its a known type definition or syntax, or pattern match... but that defeats the exploratory purpose
  81. # [08:41] <Cat4D> i also need some parallel between transcripts and sections of video content,
  82. # [08:41] <Cat4D> segments etc
  83. # [08:41] <Cat4D> for which there is absolutely none
  84. # [08:41] <Cat4D> if i want to point at the cat in the referenced frames at time or frame index offsets and say "its orange"
  85. # [08:42] <Cat4D> why am i prevented?
  86. # [08:42] <Cat4D> so, now i just want to reference the context of a text or image block in print media today, and noone can even get a date correct
  87. # [08:42] <Cat4D> for publications
  88. # [08:42] <Cat4D> ...
  89. # [08:42] <Cat4D> no less attributive accreditation for composite structures and advanced data types, like 3d models
  90. # [08:42] <Cat4D> its upsetting the world has been undermined for ... continuously
  91. # [08:43] <Cat4D> but for there to be no book/mag.page(s).article/subcontent... standard citation
  92. # [08:43] <Cat4D> ... why are there media companies and western imperial systems if they cant even substantiate their own scribbles?
  93. # [08:44] <Cat4D> not to mention word offsets or lines for quotes
  94. # [08:44] <Cat4D> wtf... even the obama executive order of a few weeks ago we had to reference failed to use line numbers
  95. # [08:44] <Cat4D> WHAT USE ARE THEY, these institutions?
  96. # [08:45] <Cat4D> then of course, is the chaotic attractor of type diversitites
  97. # [08:46] <Cat4D> "no can have better abstraction and content classification than US!"
  98. # [08:46] * Cat4D coughs classified
  99. # [08:47] <Cat4D> any other primitive data representation structures with reference types?
  100. # [08:47] <Cat4D> the recent decade's use of xml squashed most of the more diverse methods
  101. # [08:47] <Cat4D> ?
  102. # [08:49] <@tantek> citations are a difficult problem space to be sure. there have been many attempts at improving the situation but there are also a plethora of existing conventions, e.g. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citation#Citation_styles
  103. # [08:50] <@tantek> there's no lack of background reading there for previous/current efforts
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  111. # [10:56] <Loqi> [[heard that and Total self esteem booster for me]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=heard_that_and_Total_self_esteem_booster_for_me&rcid=59965 * SheltonRodriguez * (+4485) New page: [[Image:CD_and_DVDCD_and_DVD_2399.jpg|thumb|]] ANTICIPO] Caso ex Ciccone: denunció a Esteban Righi y a Adelmo Gabbi ante la justicia hola quiero hacer una preguntota, quiero ver q tan bu...
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  126. # [13:43] <Loqi> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=46234&oldid=46011&rcid=59968 * Tantek * (+124) wiki.creativecommons.org/Events has hCalendar now
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  136. # [16:33] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/nicolesmithweb] Brushing up on hCard microformats #WebDeveloper
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  149. # [19:00] <mkowens> http://www.silkapp.com/
  150. # [19:19] <@tantek> mkowens, context?
  151. # [19:27] <mkowens> None really. Just an interesting app that seems potentially relevant to people in here.
  152. # [19:27] <@tantek> does it post microformats?
  153. # [19:28] <mkowens> It says that it uses "semantic web data" (not sure what forms, as I haven't had time to fully digest it) to allow users to browse data from websites easier.
  154. # [19:30] <@tantek> do their docs mention any microformats anywhere?
  155. # [19:30] <@tantek> like what they support etc.
  156. # [19:30] <@tantek> do you know them?
  157. # [19:30] <mkowens> Again: I haven't had time to fully digest it. I just thought the premise and visualization was interesting and that people in here might be interested to see it, too.
  158. # [19:34] <@tantek> looked at http://www.silkapp.com/techspecs - appears a bit thin / light / marketingy.
  159. # [19:34] <@tantek> (not a good sign for something titled "Tech specs")
  160. # [19:37] <mkowens> Agreed. Looking at it some of their FAQs and such, it seems to make reference to things that are covered by microformats, which was one of the reasons I posted it here.
  161. # [19:38] <@tantek> try contacting them (if they have a way) and asking them specifically for microformats support
  162. # [19:38] <mkowens> Yeah; I was going to potentially contact them after trying out the tool later.
  163. # [19:41] <@tantek> ok, so far I'm seeing demo *.silkapp.com sites based on content clumsily copied from Wikipedia, e.g. http://world.silkapp.com/ and http://simpsons.silkapp.com/
  164. # [19:44] <@tantek> and subpages like http://world.silkapp.com/page/Barack%20Obama
  165. # [19:44] <@tantek> which was clumsily copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
  166. # [19:44] <@tantek> the silkapp page has no microformats
  167. # [19:44] <@tantek> whereas the wikipedia source has an hCard for Obama
  168. # [19:45] <@tantek> so so far, Silkapp is a net-negative.
  169. # [19:45] <@tantek> from that data point, they don't seem to understand/appreciate "semantic web data".
  170. # [19:46] <@tantek> mkowens, feel free to ask them / investigate further, but on first glance, I'm ready to dismiss them as being uninteresting.
  171. # [19:46] <@tantek> (there are many apps/sites that rip-off wikipedia content in order to market/sell something but typically end up providing a *worse* version of the content)
  172. # [19:50] <aaronpk> i.e. facebook
  173. # [19:50] <@tantek> ding
  174. # [19:50] <aaronpk> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Tantek-%C3%87elik/107839409237276
  175. # [19:50] <@tantek> oh boy
  176. # [19:51] <aaronpk> :(
  177. # [19:53] <@tantek> nevermind that my wp page is horribly out of date :/
  178. # [19:54] <mkowens> I don't disagree that the intent and usage might be bad. I just was intending to show that there seems to be an interest in some form of "semantic web data viewer" not imply that Silk was a good thing. Just something that might be interesting.
  179. # [19:55] <@tantek> maybe I'm just jaded by seeing too many marketingy claims of "semantic web data" that turn out to be crap.
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  181. # [19:56] <@tantek> and copying/republishing wikipedia tends to be a spammer pattern - hence another source of suspicioun
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  183. # [19:57] <@tantek> mkowens - my bar for "might be interesting" with respect to microformats is at least a service/app that claims *something* about microformats in particular, either by name in general "supports microformats" or support for specific microformats like mentioning hCard, hCalendar.
  184. # [19:58] <@tantek> here's an example of an "interesting" service/app using that criteria: http://grabaperch.com/features/microformats
  185. # [20:03] <mkowens> Don't worry. Won't make the mistake of posting things in here that aren't explicitly microformats related again.
  186. # [20:03] <@tantek> mkowens - hah!
  187. # [20:03] <@tantek> that wasn't my point, I was just trying to provide some additional background
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  189. # [20:03] <@tantek> so many nonsensical content posting sites/apps seem to ship/launch every day
  190. # [20:04] <@tantek> I'm not sure how you filter them all
  191. # [20:08] <@tantek> wow they even got a fluff PR piece in gigaom: http://gigaom.com/europe/meet-silk-the-semantic-web-for-the-rest-of-us
  192. # [20:08] <@tantek> "It works like this: you build a series of pages inside Silk and link them together with tags." - another silo
  193. # [20:08] <@tantek> and ooh tags! how 2005 of them ;)
  194. # [20:09] <@tantek> at least Bobbie noticed this: "Then there’s the fact that each set of Silk documents reside inside a silo, unconnected with any others."
  195. # [20:09] <@tantek> nothing web-like there
  196. # [20:10] <@tantek> just another company hyping "semantic web" without anything that resembles anything "semantic" or "web"-like in the actual product
  197. # [20:10] <@tantek> oh and huge filter warning:
  198. # [20:10] <@tantek> any time you see any phrase like:
  199. # [20:10] <@tantek> "… bring the Semantic Web dream just a step closer to becoming a reality."
  200. # [20:10] <@tantek> run.
  201. # [20:11] <@tantek> that's a good signifier for - app/company has no idea what they're doing.
  202. # [20:30] <@tantek> mkowens, ok I went ahead and dug just *a little* further (due to the gigaom coverage)
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  204. # [20:31] <@tantek> created http://microformats.silkapp.com/
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  206. # [20:31] <@tantek> silkapp is just yet another wysiwyg wiki
  207. # [20:31] <@tantek> nothing special
  208. # [20:31] <@tantek> nothing semantic
  209. # [20:31] <@tantek> unless I'm missing something.
  210. # [20:37] <Loqi> [http://twitter.com/JamesGurd] @graemed yes - it's saying missing hcard for author but I'm using a Wordpress plug-in which I know others have used.
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  242. # [22:35] <Cat4D> where is a list of binary representations of primitive types?
  243. # [22:40] <@tantek> Cat4D - microformats deal with text publishing on the web, not any binary representations.
  244. # [22:40] * Quits: Cat4D (182bd7e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.43.215.226) (Quit: Page closed)
  245. # [22:40] <@tantek> *hypertext publishing at that
  246. # [22:51] * Joins: Cat4D (433456da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.52.86.218)
  247. # [22:52] <Cat4D> then, do tell, how do you publish it?
  248. # [22:54] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/get-started
  249. # [22:55] <Cat4D> why do your wiki entries have no usable data management structure?
  250. # [22:56] <Cat4D> it is somewhat self defeating to put content in unstructured wikis when your point is to devise structured content
  251. # [22:58] <@tantek> Cat4D - the wiki does use some microformats but could likely use some more.
  252. # [22:58] <@tantek> And yes, improving usability is a constant focus/task. No claim to perfection there. :)
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  255. # [23:01] <Cat4D> but
  256. # [23:01] <Cat4D> microformat the wiki entries with a form
  257. # [23:01] <@tantek> rigid forms tend to be more of an obstacle than a help
  258. # [23:02] <@tantek> especially for usability
  259. # [23:02] <@tantek> it's easier to iterate and improve usability when not restricted by a predefined form/schema
  260. # [23:02] <@tantek> Cat4D - do you have your own website?
  261. # [23:02] <@tantek> perhaps start with marking up your contact info with hCard: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
  262. # [23:02] <Cat4D> far too many, and fighting with webgl at this moment
  263. # [23:03] <@tantek> good luck in your fight
  264. # [23:03] <@tantek> plenty of folks here to help once you get started with adding microformats to your site(s).
  265. # [23:03] <@tantek> ttyl
  266. # [23:03] <Loqi> [[IfItWasUpToMe id have a Loan husband Wait that is up to me]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=IfItWasUpToMe_id_have_a_Loan_husband_Wait_that_is_up_to_me&rcid=59969 * QueenHuffman3 * (+2520) New page: [[Image:Loan_Loan__4764.jpg|thumb|]] O no recuerdo haber tuiteado algo asi! UnRefugioParaelAmor pisa fuerte en México con buenísimos 16.0 puntos! ... WhyILoveSpanishWomen om
  267. # [23:04] <edwardbc> tantek
  268. # [23:04] <edwardbc> <tantek> yeah, just say no to meta tags. use visible data instead with #microformats ;) <--- could you give an example or ellaborate?
  269. # [23:06] <@tantek> edwardbc - sure, like your contact info, use hCard: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
  270. # [23:06] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:QueenHuffman3]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  271. # [23:06] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[IfItWasUpToMe id have a Loan husband Wait that is up to me]]": content was spam
  272. # [23:08] <edwardbc> oh i see
  273. # [23:08] <edwardbc> thanks :)
  274. # [23:11] <@tantek> no problem!
  275. # [23:11] <@tantek> do you have your own website edwardbc?
  276. # [23:12] <edwardbc> a few, mostly develop for others
  277. # [23:12] <edwardbc> why?
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  281. # [23:27] <@tantek> edwardbc - just curious if you've tried adding microformats and what your experience has been
  282. # [23:27] <edwardbc> I actually kind of ashamed that I haven't
  283. # [23:28] <@tantek> it's ok, we're here to help! and hopefully it should be really easy. :)
  284. # [23:29] <edwardbc> awesome thanks :)
  285. # Session Close: Fri May 11 00:00:00 2012

The end :)