/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2012-07-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 26 01:58:34 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [01:58] * Now talking in #microformats
  4. # [01:58] * Topic is 'http://microformats.org/wiki/irc - if you are new here, add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people'
  5. # [01:58] * Set by tantek on Mon Apr 09 17:30:07
  6. # [01:58] -ChanServ- [#microformats] Welcome to #microformats. Logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats
  7. # [01:58] #microformats url is http://microformats.org
  8. # [01:59] <@tantek> huh I wonder what happened to have krijnh drop off the channel
  9. # [02:00] <Loqi> [[hcard-input-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-input-examples&diff=46917&oldid=46882&rcid=61122 * Tantek * (+9536) start shopping checkout section with Advance Auto Parts example, prune some leftover scripting/presentational markup
  10. # [02:02] <Loqi> [[hcard-input-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-input-examples&diff=46918&oldid=46917&rcid=61123 * Tantek * (+49) /* examples */ person billing shipping input
  11. # [02:08] <Loqi> [[hcard-input-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-input-examples&diff=46919&oldid=46918&rcid=61124 * Tantek * (-193) /* Advance Auto Parts */ -non-form stuff
  12. # [02:57] <Loqi> [[hcard-input-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-input-examples&diff=46920&oldid=46919&rcid=61125 * Tantek * (+34913) /* person billing shipping input */ American Eagle
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  30. # [08:41] <Loqi> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=irc&diff=46921&oldid=46046&rcid=61126 * Tantek * (+1236) /* Logs */ /invite krijnh #microformats if krijnh is not in the channel to keep his logs going, add logbot.glob link
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  34. # Session Start: Thu Jul 26 08:57:23 2012
  35. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  39. # [08:58] * Topic is 'http://microformats.org/wiki/irc - if you are new here, add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people'
  40. # [08:58] * Set by tantek on Mon Apr 09 17:30:07
  41. # [08:58] -ChanServ- [#microformats] Welcome to #microformats. Logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats
  42. # [08:58] #microformats url is http://microformats.org
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  68. # [16:13] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/divshot :: HTML5 & microformats 2 http://t.co/m32UBUNC
  69. # [16:19] * Joins: twisted` (u6794@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eyuprswdyanwxhzn)
  70. # [16:19] <twisted`> hi, anyone here familiar with implementing rich-snippets or whaddayamightcall it into existing websites?
  71. # [16:20] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/FreeWSOdownload :: Free download: WSO - WP Author hReview (Plugin) http://t.co/7QX9U90f
  72. # [16:20] <twisted`> I want to implement the Product Schema into an existing webshop
  73. # [17:13] <@tantek> twisted`: yes, you can implement hProduct into an existing webshop
  74. # [17:13] <twisted`> yeah I got it working quite ok by now actually
  75. # [17:14] <twisted`> lot more work then I hoped but that's due to the webshop's templating
  76. # [17:14] <twisted`> :)
  77. # [17:14] <@tantek> some methods take more work than others too
  78. # [17:14] <twisted`> what I don't fully get
  79. # [17:15] <twisted`> is I implemented name, manufacturer, offers (with a price) and description
  80. # [17:15] <@tantek> with the hProduct microformat, you just need to add a few class names. in contrast with microdata/schema or RDFa, you have to add a bunch more attributes (and sometimes more divs/spans also)
  81. # [17:15] * Joins: patcito (~123@190.235.217.236)
  82. # [17:15] <twisted`> but using the Google Preview it just shows the price
  83. # [17:15] <twisted`> it does recognise the rest
  84. # [17:15] <twisted`> I can PM you the preview URL
  85. # [17:15] <@tantek> ok
  86. # [17:15] <twisted`> don't want to spam this channel with my webshop's url
  87. # [17:15] <@tantek> no that's ok, you can share it in the channel if you're ok with it
  88. # [17:18] <twisted`> it seems to extract the info properly but it doesn't do anything with it
  89. # [17:19] <twisted`> or I don't really get it yet :D
  90. # [17:19] <twisted`> k brb gotta walk my dog
  91. # [17:24] <@tantek> twisted` I think it has to do with the complexity of using multiple schema type objects in one page. take a look at hProduct and see if that markup is simpler: http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct
  92. # [17:27] <@tantek> and see also Google's description of their hProduct support here: http://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=186036
  93. # [17:37] <twisted`> hmm I thought I was using the same format
  94. # [17:37] <twisted`> ok I'll look into it
  95. # [17:41] <twisted`> afaik I took everything from: http://www.schema.org/Product as an example
  96. # [17:49] <@tantek> hProduct is a bit simpler, and only requires adding to the class attribute see that last link for a comparison and the hProduct spec for example markup.
  97. # [17:49] <@tantek> go
  98. # [17:49] <@tantek> t
  99. # [17:50] <@tantek> got to go for now - will be back later - but give hProduct a try with class="…" attributes rather than all the item**** attributes and report back how it works or with any questions about hProduct.
  100. # [17:50] <@tantek> ttyl!
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  103. # [17:54] <twisted`> thanks!
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  108. # [19:09] <Loqi> [[hresume-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hresume-examples-in-wild&diff=46922&oldid=46593&rcid=61127 * Mohit.seth * (+146) /* New Examples */
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  119. # [23:23] <undecim> in hCard, I need either 'fn' *OR* 'n', not both?
  120. # [23:24] <@tantek> or both
  121. # [23:24] <@tantek> you always need fn
  122. # [23:25] <undecim> Alright. Just seemed silly to have the name twice, though I guess fn is sort of like the preferred way to have a name written?
  123. # [23:25] <undecim> And then 'n' is for a sematically strucutred name?
  124. # [23:26] <@tantek> no you can use the same markup on the name once
  125. # [23:26] <@tantek> see the examples
  126. # [23:27] <@tantek> e.g. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring#The_Importance_of_Names
  127. # [23:28] <@tantek> 'n' is for marking up the individual components of a name, which can also be used in sequence for how the name is displayed, and thus the whole thing can be wrapped in an 'fn'
  128. # [23:28] <twisted`> tantek: to respond to what you said earlier, using class="" seems to be impractical for my certain usage
  129. # [23:29] <twisted`> it would have a chance of class collision in naming
  130. # [23:29] <twisted`> and want to prevent that
  131. # [23:29] <@tantek> a-ha - good to know
  132. # [23:29] <undecim> tantek: OIC. Thanks
  133. # [23:29] <@tantek> yes that confirms some feedback we received
  134. # [23:29] <@tantek> a
  135. # [23:29] <@tantek> nd
  136. # [23:29] <@tantek>
  137. # [23:29] <twisted`> tantek: also I don't see how I'm mixing two specs? afaik I'm just using http://www.schema.org/Product
  138. # [23:29] <@tantek> we've fixed things in microformats2 accordingly
  139. # [23:29] <@tantek> to avoid class collisisons
  140. # [23:29] <@tantek> collisions even
  141. # [23:30] <@tantek> you have two itemtypes in your code
  142. # [23:30] <twisted`> hmm I only implemented one
  143. # [23:30] <twisted`> maybe the other one is already in the webshop stuff
  144. # [23:30] <twisted`> tantek: or which other one am I using?
  145. # [23:31] <@tantek> I saw two itemtype on the page
  146. # [23:32] <twisted`> according to Google it has MICROFORMAT (no idea where it pulls those from tbfh) and MICRODATA (what I supplied)
  147. # [23:32] <@tantek> interesting
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  149. # [23:32] <twisted`> also the 'fn' it refers to doesn't exist in the sourcecode
  150. # [23:34] <twisted`> tantek: or do you mean, I am using schema.org/Product and schema.org/Offer ?
  151. # [23:34] <twisted`> I thought both had to be used together?
  152. # [23:34] <@tantek> it's odd - I'm not sure how you're supposed to use them together
  153. # [23:34] <@tantek> we took a different approach with microformats, that is, with hListing
  154. # [23:35] <@tantek> which encapsulates the offering information, and as part of it can include an hProduct inside
  155. # [23:36] <twisted`> I can try to use hProduct
  156. # [23:37] <twisted`> but just find the classes a bit... meh
  157. # [23:37] <@tantek> which classes collide for you?
  158. # [23:37] <twisted`> not sure yet but there's bound to be one
  159. # [23:37] <@tantek> are you a developer or designer?
  160. # [23:38] <twisted`> developer :)
  161. # [23:38] <twisted`> but modifying existing code
  162. # [23:38] <twisted`> cause I want to keep the template as close as possible to the stock
  163. # [23:38] <@tantek> ok got it - so you want to be more conservative
  164. # [23:38] <twisted`> to insure upgrades are possible
  165. # [23:38] <twisted`> and adding some -extra- spans here and there
  166. # [23:38] <twisted`> is something that you can easily add/remove
  167. # [23:39] <twisted`> but I'll dupe my current file and make a hProduct one, see if I get more luck there :)
  168. # [23:39] <@tantek> it's interesting - most designer prefer *not* using extra spans - because it clutters up the markup
  169. # [23:40] <twisted`> uh... I can't think of any reason why using a span too much/less can be any bad thing
  170. # [23:41] <twisted`> imo I'd prefer if something like microdata or microformats would become mandatory
  171. # [23:41] <twisted`> want a product listing? use a friggin <price> for the price, <price type="sale"> or whatever
  172. # [23:41] <twisted`> styling can be exactly the same but 10000x easier to parse
  173. # [23:41] <twisted`> now I'm stuck with a gazillion elements that all make no sense whatsoever
  174. # [23:44] <twisted`> but that's just me looking at it purely from a technical standpoint
  175. # [23:44] <twisted`> parsing HTML is a pita
  176. # [23:44] <twisted`> if I know I can search for a predefined standard and parse just that... *happy camper*
  177. # [23:45] <@tantek> twisted` microformats is what Google has supported the longest.
  178. # [23:45] <twisted`> well I clicked on *recommended*
  179. # [23:45] <twisted`> and it gave me that schema.org stuff
  180. # [23:46] <@tantek> and designers still prefer minimal markup/attribute and working with the class attribute, so we've iterated on microformats with microformats2, fixing the problems like class collisions etc.
  181. # [23:46] <@tantek> Google used to help contribute to microformats, e.g. hReview-aggregate, hProduct, hListing, but then decided to come up with 150+ different objects with schema
  182. # [23:46] <@tantek> while reinventing the objects that already worked fine in microformats
  183. # [23:47] <@tantek> it's Google's 4th attempt to reinvent something for adding semantics to the web (previously: Google Base, Google Data, data-vocabulary.org).
  184. # [23:48] <twisted`> how do I pass along which type of identifier it is?
  185. # [23:48] <twisted`> it needs a type like mpn
  186. # [23:48] <twisted`> so I do class="identifier mpn" ?
  187. # [23:48] <@tantek> for microformats we're continuing to plug away and evolve it openly, with a community
  188. # [23:48] <@tantek> the "type" is what we refer to as root class names in microformats
  189. # [23:48] <@tantek> microformats2 makes this much simpler
  190. # [23:48] <@tantek> essentially, root class names start with "h-"
  191. # [23:48] <@tantek> e.g. h-card, h-event, h-recipe etc.
  192. # [23:49] <twisted`> yeah
  193. # [23:49] <twisted`> but I mean for hProduct
  194. # [23:49] <twisted`> I can define a MPN
  195. # [23:49] <@tantek> in existing microformats, the root class names are all chosen one by one
  196. # [23:49] <@tantek> so for hProduct, the root class name is "hproduct"
  197. # [23:50] <@tantek> by MPN, do you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturer_part_number ?
  198. # [23:50] <twisted`> yep
  199. # [23:50] <twisted`> http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct -> identifier. optional.
  200. # [23:51] <@tantek> right
  201. # [23:51] <@tantek> and actually, all properties are optional in microformats2
  202. # [23:51] <@tantek> for the publisher
  203. # [23:51] <twisted`> I dunno if Google supports microformats2?
  204. # [23:51] <@tantek> it's another improvement we've made based on feedback
  205. # [23:51] <@tantek> not yet
  206. # [23:51] <twisted`> then... it's no use to me atm ;) nofi :D
  207. # [23:52] <@tantek> right now, various parser/validator developers are working on adding microformats2 support
  208. # [23:52] <twisted`> I just want better indexibility from Google's standpoint
  209. # [23:52] <@tantek> for that, check back in 6 months I'd say (maybe sooner, but likely ~6months)
  210. # [23:52] <@tantek> sure, for that you'll want only existing microformats or the microdata schema or rdfa variants.
  211. # [23:53] <twisted`> by that time, new iteration of the webshop's software
  212. # [23:53] <twisted`> new code to poke
  213. # [23:54] <@tantek> makes sense
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The end :)